Starting statisting question

[Tumidajczyk]

Hi guys,
that is my first post here and primary reason why i had create an account here. While i was creating some raven and candle born characters i noticed few strange things i cannot explain to myself. Maybe you can help me.

First one - High elf Archers tend to have 10 To while starting. I tried to get some bonus from starting questions (just to be safe with traps at the start of the game) and i can't. I created already 7 chars with bonuses from starting questions 4 and 5 points and everytime my archer has 10 To (if 5 point from q) or 9 To (if 4). Randomly generated archers are having very often To above 10. I jut don't understand it. Manual says there may be some variance up to 5 points but having it 7 times in a row??? It;s just like there is a starting limit of 10 To....

Second - Dwarven Priest tend to have 18 wisdom at start. When i was creating some i hit once 3 Wi. How it is possible to lower starting statistic by 15 point? I agree i lowered a little bit Wi by quetion system but i'm sure it wasn't more than 3 or 4 points...

Third - female Drakeling Assasin starts with 13 Dx (12+1 from gender). I tried to create once a char with very high Dx. This time I answered the questions that way i should get 6 bonus Dx points from them. I was rubbing my hands already and then poof - my char got 3 starting Dx. Yes, three! I mean how the F U C K ??? 16 points lower than it should be?!

I would be very gladful for explaining those anomalies. I'm scratching my head but still nothing :D

I decided that while i will be creating new characters i'm going to post my results here.

+ Another 7 HE archers with 9 or 10 To. This time i answered all questions to get as low To as possible. On average they had -5 points to To.
Archer with +9 to Dx from questions and female (+1) ended up with 22 Dx while also having 7 St and 7 Le.
+ Female HE assassin with + 5 to To and + 6 to DX (+1 from gender) ended up with 10 To DX 15 (should be on average 27), 6 Le (17 on class average, from questions -4) and some minor "-" to Pe and Wi. Only above average statistic was App which was 15 (instead of 14).
+ None of created by question system HE (i think about 20) had a To other than 8-10 range. Bonuses from question system seems doesnt work for them.
+ Range of HE archer To generated by skipping question system vary from 8 to 14 with average about 10,5. Only exeptions are Dragon generated archers (should be +1 from starsign) wich suprasingly seems to have even lower To however it may be random (recorded 9,12,10 and suprising 8).

As a result i think HE has a upper and a lower limit to their To statistic which are 7 and 14. However both values appears extremely rare and i wouldnt consider them as normal valuse for archers. In conclusion HE To values vary from 8 to 13 and question system seems to have very little influence on it.Hard to say but i think it may be sth like 1 point only.

P.S How the fuck is possible that HE Archer with 29 Dx, 23 Pe and Alertness at about 50 can't dodge even half of created traps? 75% of my archers are deing at UD because of acid and fireballs traps.

[Ravenmore]

Hi!

1) Don't use the F word here, these are nice polite forums.
2) What version of ADOM are you playing?

[Silfir]

I really hope Ravenmore doesn't check my posting history... :(

I haven't used the question system in ages - maybe the code is wonky in some places, that could use some research.

[anon123]

My experience is that there's a limit to how much stats can be influenced by question system choices. Even if you pick answers that would boost a single stat by several points, you rarely end up with more than +2 to it.

[Stingray1]

That makes sense otherwise people would just answer accordingly and end up with high stats.

[JellySlayer]

Second - Dwarven Priest tend to have 18 wisdom at start. When i was creating some i hit once 3 Wi. How it is possible to lower starting statistic by 15 point? I agree i lowered a little bit Wi by quetion system but i'm sure it wasn't more than 3 or 4 points...

There are other effects that come into play beyond the questions, most notably your birth history, as well as maybe a few random variables or whatnot. 3 Wi seems like a pretty huge outlier, I agree. The Guidebook scores don't take into account any of these other effects, so if that's what you're using, huge variations from the expected values is not impossible.


+ Female HE assassin with + 5 to To and + 6 to DX (+1 from gender) ended up with 10 To DX 15 (should be on average 27), 6 Le (17 on class average, from questions -4) and some minor "-" to Pe and Wi. Only above average statistic was App which was 15 (instead of 14).

HE assassin will not have an average Dx of 27. Note that birth effects can lead to cross-the-board penalties, resulting in all stats being below average. For example, if you were sick or tortured as a child, you will get a significant penalty to all stats. These effects typically swamp the question system (which I've actually found to have very little effect overall)


+ None of created by question system HE (i think about 20) had a To other than 8-10 range. Bonuses from question system seems doesnt work for them.
+ Range of HE archer To generated by skipping question system vary from 8 to 14 with average about 10,5. Only exeptions are Dragon generated archers (should be +1 from starsign) wich suprasingly seems to have even lower To however it may be random (recorded 9,12,10 and suprising 8).

It's possible that there are upper/lower limits. It could be that the bonuses from question system are affected by potential maxima somehow.


P.S How the fuck is possible that HE Archer with 29 Dx, 23 Pe and Alertness at about 50 can't dodge even half of created traps? 75% of my archers are deing at UD because of acid and fireballs traps.

50 Alertness doesn't necessarily mean 50 percent success rate. You'll notice a big difference getting above 60/80/100 (might be 66/90/100 for alertness? don't recall). Few of the mechanics in ADOM lend themselves to simple formulas or even simple rules of thumb. Even at 100 Alertness your dodge rate is still probably not much better than maybe 80 percent.

[grobblewobble]

I remember weird behaviour when trying to min/max the question system, too.. in any case, contrary to popular belief, high elf is not the easiest race for archers, in spite of nice starting items and dex. Their low starting toughness is a bad drawback, especially now that potentials are hard to raise.

[Tumidajczyk]

Well, firstly I'm sorry for those f words. As for an excuse i can say i tried to create above average character for 2 hours and i failed. I made some more testing and i'm pretty sure there are upper and lower limits for some races and classes. HE elven generally can't get more than 3 points of To more than it is state in manual. I also think that in manual question system limit lowers to 1 point and general rule is that variance with skipped qs is much bigger. It may be even more profiting (as upside larger stats value but as downside no control by qs where they go).I have no evidence for that but at this stage this is only explanation i can find.

Neverless main problem is if so, how are so small lower values possible? If average class/race combination statistic are let's say 18 and at the end of the day you get character with 3 my first question is how do you get average value? I assume there must be way to hit a big bonus to those stats, but honestly i didn't even noticed this possibility while i answered questions. Maybe explanation is that those average values don't take into account birth history. I don't know. Secondly, if you got 3 of dex and you got female character + large(?) boost from questions what would be a value as male, skipped [q] character? If everything is ok there should be possibility to overcame a boarder of 1 which is ridicolous idea even if there is blocker line in code. And thirdly - honestly, i never hit large boost to statistic even with four positive birthday messages. When i was creating HE archers i got message about boosting Dx. I got then +6 from question system and i didn't end apprenticeship prematurly. Moreover i changed earlier computer date to 2 July ;) - just in case. Final result was 26 Dx. When i was creating skipped question system He archers i hit 2 or 3 times characters with 28-29 Dx. I don't understand how it is possible.
If you have done absolutely everything what you could and there is no random variance (meaning that all "variance" is generated by birthday messages) or is low as 1 point (can't be bigger because then those To tests don't make any sense then) how can you score as much as 29 points? It's just impossible.
And last but not the least. I thought there may be bonus limit to main downside race statistic (you know, To for elf, St for hurthling and so on) but after some tests i'm scratching my head one more time. Generally with Dx and To some strange things happens.

P.S All you say about alertness is true but as i know, evading traps dice includes Pe,Dx, skill value, one talent and lucky/fate smile intristics. Why then Lucky, Fate smiled character with 50 alertness and total of over 50 stats included in dice dodges as often as average dwarf with no skill?

[asdf]

...........
http://pastebin.com/L7xNfdc5

[Tumidajczyk]

http://pastebin.com/L7xNfdc5

I'm playing 1.1.1. Much better. No candy graphic and music.

[Silfir]

Then forgive my curiosity - what are you even expecting to achieve by raising the issue? Even if there is a problem and it is fixed, the fix will be in the current version.

Both graphics and music can be turned off I'm sure. Couldn't tell, too busy enjoying health bars and the novelty.

[anon123]

I'm playing 1.1.1. Much better. No candy graphic and music.

There is a pure-ASCII version of 1.2.0, and there will always be (that's official). Having very low hardware requirements and stimulating the player's imagination were always two of ADOM's selling points. Getting rid of that would be suididal.

PS: I once question-rolled a dark elf wizard attempting to boost Learning, and ended up with average Le but 17 Toughness. :eek:

[gut]

> 1) Don't use the F word here

Don't try to tell people what they can and can't say.

> these are nice polite forums.

Since when? These are censorship free forums, actually. If they ever cease to be, I'm out of here.
For an example of what you can expect from a typical gutt post, here is one from around the 3000th mark:
http://oi56.tinypic.com/zxmln4.jpg

>> My experience is that there's a limit to how much stats can be influenced by question system choices

My xp is different, at least as of 1.1.1. We were using the question system to pump Le: +11 on the old server.
We only stopped because the roller was NEARLY AS GOOD and was much easier.

>>> That makes sense otherwise people would just answer accordingly and end up with high stats.

There was, for some reason, a heavy weight toward learning on the question system.
Answering appropriately to every question (random between 7 and 11 iirc) could result
in +11 Le, but only about +4 or 5 To or St.

> It could be that the bonuses from question system are affected by potential maxima somehow

As of 1.1.1 I'm 99% sure there was no cap on any stat with regard to the question system.

> Well, firstly I'm sorry for those f words

I'm sorry you were castrated.

[Ravenmore]

You can always propose changes if you think the system has flaws - i.e. post an RFE to suggest more transparency in the question system or maybe propose a point-buy system for the stats, but these will only be added to the latest versions (if Thomas sees fit). So you won't be able to benefit from them if you don't feel like upgrading.

Also, the graphics and other frills bells and whistles like NOTEye enhancements are 100% optional, don't like them - just turn them off :) This will never change, there will always be an option for pure ASCII.

@Gut
If these are 100% free speech forums then don't limit my speech by telling me what I can/can't tell people ;) Won't elaborate further for fear of derailing a perfectly fine topic.

[Superteeth]

@Gut
If these are 100% free speech forums then don't limit my speech by telling me what I can/can't tell people ;) Won't elaborate further for fear of derailing a perfectly fine topic.

I know the comment was not directed at me, and I don't really care either way what kind of language is used on these forums, but isn't it a bit odd for someone to tell another not to limit their free speech when they were attempting to limit another's free speech a couple of posts ago?

[Orbic]

That's it, you have derailed it. I'll therefore rebound with clean fangs.

May be odd, but since free speech is all around us, what is wrong with condemning free speech?
That is where democracy fails nowadays, so it is interesting to see the same mechanism apply to this microcosm of an elitist forum...

On the off topic:
Swear words do not bother me but I like them better when they are used sparingly and not as blessed bandages on a critically hit vocabulary. In this case I can find some :mad: :confused: :D somewhere :p