Mist Elf Archers - surprisingly good

[magpie]

I've been playing around with the new races lately ... and I've found that ME Archers are pretty good!

Pros:

Beginning with mithril gear, including mithril arrows and a mithril dagger. Having a decent melee weapon at the start of the game can help quite a bit.
Good Awareness score and modifier.
High Learning, which means 4-5 skill ups per level.
High Dexterity, at least as high as other elves, and maybe even higher (I haven't made enough to be sure of this latter point).

... with the well-known Mist Elf weaknesses, of course. :D

Also, you don't start with very many mithril arrows, and you usually start with 4-5 small stacks of them, which is a little bit of a pain, but it's not too bad once you run into a few kobolds and raiders to increase your stash of normal arrows.

Right now, I have one at level 11, who's done all the Terinyo quests, and while I need to be really careful, it's doing pretty well. Starting with Candle has helped a lot, of course.

Has anyone played a ME archer into the late game?

[SirTheta]

My new favorite mist elf class is actually weaponsmith (and not just because I got to TOEF on my first try!).

Pros:
-(almost) always start w/ 17 St and can start with a To potential of 16-17 with a few rolls (if taking the Tree starsign, which you should be doing anyway). This usually means you can get TH by level 6 (if taking Hardy as your second starting talent) and ITP by 15.
-smithing means you can up your PV considerably assuming you do a simple trip through the UD. PV isn't as important for mist elves, but it's still a nice boon.
-start with a ring of fire resistance and detect traps
-find weakness!
-since mist elves get terrible shop prices, you can save all your higher metal gear to melt down for ingots!
-like all mist elves, usually have an okay learning score and always start with mithril gear

Cons:
-die increases on several key skills (like alertness and stealth) fall off to +1 in the 60s

[JellySlayer]

Well, archers are pretty much godly on any race, so it's not surprising that they do well as Mist Elves. Certainly, not having to engage things in melee and being able to dual-wield shields basically full time is a pretty nice perk.

Healing/Candle is not really worth it for Mist Elves, IMHO. Herbalism/Gardening/Raven is much more useful to them. HP regeneration is not a huge deal when you have such a small amount of HP and one or two blessed spenseweeds is all you need to get to full HP. My first Mist Elf win was a Farmer back in pre7. I think I finished the game with a Healing skill of like 65 and no Candle. It was just never worthwhile to bother increasing it (and it's really difficult to increase anyway).

[Grey]

What the mist elf archer heir gift? Winged mithril arrows?

[grobblewobble]

40 winged mithril arrows of hunting

[Carter]

Has anyone played a ME archer into the late game?

the major problem for ME anything is the tower, simply because you can't wear the gauntlets, and you still want a ring of ice. That means you need to have something else that gives you the fire resistances, which can be quite tough to get. Then you have the wyrm who can instagib alot of ME. You basically need to find a crown of fire or red dragon scale mail, or be crowned with fire imm unless you have bulk spenseweed, which an archer won't have.

[Carter]

Healing/Candle is not really worth it for Mist Elves, IMHO. Herbalism/Gardening/Raven is much more useful to them. HP regeneration is not a huge deal when you have such a small amount of HP and one or two blessed spenseweeds is all you need to get to full HP. My first Mist Elf win was a Farmer back in pre7. I think I finished the game with a Healing skill of like 65 and no Candle. It was just never worthwhile to bother increasing it (and it's really difficult to increase anyway).

Its a good point. One you have a ME with over say, 150 hp you would have found something that regenerates wounds anyway, so healing is then not required anyway.

[magpie]

Its a good point. One you have a ME with over say, 150 hp you would have found something that regenerates wounds anyway, so healing is then not required anyway.


Healing/Candle is not really worth it for Mist Elves, IMHO.

Yeah, that's true, but I don't re-roll star signs until I get the one I want - I just roll with whatever star sign I'm given. The last ME Archer I played was a Tree sign, who died pretty early - but that was to an exploding door at a much lower level, so ...

My second-best character on ADOM was a Dwarf Warrior who didn't really find much good equipment until the late game - so that forced me to play very carefully, which isn't my usual style (I'm pretty impatient, which is death for any ADOM character). So I think how carefully you play is really the deciding factor in how successful a character will be.


the major problem for ME anything is the tower, simply because you can't wear the gauntlets, and you still want a ring of ice. That means you need to have something else that gives you the fire resistances, which can be quite tough to get. Then you have the wyrm who can instagib alot of ME. You basically need to find a crown of fire or red dragon scale mail, or be crowned with fire imm unless you have bulk spenseweed, which an archer won't have.

Thanks!

Ah, yeah, that's true. No gauntlets? :( They are so easy to get, it's easy to forget that they are pretty important for quite a long time in the game. I guess stocking up on wands early, and blasting through other creatures, will be a decent way to deal with the AKW?

[magpie]

I hate smithing - I've tried, and I just find it even more boring that herb-scumming or grinding the ID. But I understand it's pretty powerful if pursued throughout the game.

I have a question - how many people never pursue smithing, and usually manage to finish games pretty easily?

And how many people find smithing to be a crucial factor in their (near-)victorious games?

[Grey]

I guess stocking up on wands early, and blasting through other creatures, will be a decent way to deal with the AKW?

Well as an archer you can take down the Wyrm easily enough if you get some arrows of slaying or dragon slaying. Alternatively dip a stack in poison. As long as you keep him out of direct line you'll be okay.

You might want to train up rocks a little before the Tower and use them on most of the denizens. They don't burn as easily in there and as an archer they should work fine for pulverising things. But minimise time in there anyway, making a beeline for the stairs and getting to the ACW as soon as you can.

As for smithing, don't bother, it's a waste of time. I did it on one game because it was an extra challenging run (drakeling spit only for attacks) and it ended up making things too easy. It takes ages and detracts from the fun of the game.

[grobblewobble]

the major problem for ME anything is the tower, simply because you can't wear the gauntlets, and you still want a ring of ice.
If you've got a few fireproof blankets, you don't need any rings of ice. The only really important vulnerable items that you need to equip are bows for shooting slaying ammo, but you can simply equip them just before shooting the wyrm. With a few spare short bows from barbarians, no problem. Pickaxes can be used from the pack.

The black torc and the dwarven rune axe are two guaranteed items with fire resistance that mist elves can wear without penalty.


I have a question - how many people never pursue smithing, and usually manage to finish games pretty easily?
Most of them. Sirtheta usually doesn't smith himself, he mentioned it as a special / unusual strategy, not as a must-have or something.

[JellySlayer]

Ah, yeah, that's true. No gauntlets? :( They are so easy to get, it's easy to forget that they are pretty important for quite a long time in the game. I guess stocking up on wands early, and blasting through other creatures, will be a decent way to deal with the AKW?

If you're lucky enough to get Farsight, you can probably also dig a long trench into the Temple and shoot arrows from across the level at him. By level 20 when you're approaching the tower, you should have a range of at least 20 on your missiles, so you can probably do an awful lot of damage to the monsters inside from a very safe distance. Even if you don't have Farsight and can't see what you're doing, you still might be able to kill the ACW from the other side of the level just by shooting arrows into the Temple repeatedly. Bring a couple extra bows (wilderness barbarians will give lots) and a tonne of arrows.

[edit]FWIW, I never smith with any class except weaponsmiths.

[SirTheta]

You can DEFINITELY wear the gauntlets in the tower, it's just super annoying - you need ITP (that's why weaponsmiths + Tree are awesome - it's very easy to get it) and you can't continuously walk since the "skin destroyed by impure metal" message is displayed every turn. Weaponsmiths also have a wee bit easier time in the tower with their naturally high To and HP - makes it harder to be killed by one energy blast (though I was instakilled by two consecutive blasts recently :(). One of their crowning gifts gives -Fire and one gives =Fire as well, so that's always an option.

I also never smith - playing ME weaponsmiths is the first time I've smithed at all in like three years. It's not too terribly boring, however, especially if you can get some ants to mine out part of a level for you. With weaponsmiths it's actually much more fun since you can melt down higher metal items to get ingots - not exactly a plentiful source, but it's nice to have an alternate source aside from mining whole levels. Smithing in small quantities (e.g. to improve a shield or girdle's PV - two areas that are sometimes very lacking) seems eminently worth it. Since it's kind of the conceit of the class, I find it more interesting than I probably would otherwise. Who doesn't want to walk into D:50 with 120 PV :D

[JellySlayer]

While I don't disagree with the advantage to the ME weaponsmith, not having access to iron is kind of a letdown as far as I'm concerned if you actually want to really take advantage of the weaponsmith's abilities. There just aren't enough higher metal items lying around to give you a whole lot of ingots, whereas you can easily milk 500s worth of iron (4-5 ingots worth) just from a single spear trap, so you can do lots of smithing of iron gear early in the game.

[magpie]

Early Ring of Djinni Summoning - by early, I mean, before Dwarftown.

What suggestions do you have for a wish? Red Dragon Scale Mails, eh (That's usually what I wish for pre-Tower)? Or would I be better off wishing for something else? I do want this character to go all the way, obviously.

How's Find Weakness for a wish? I understand it will boost my offensive power quite a lot; but the way I see it, an Archer has plenty of offensive power already without it.

[grobblewobble]

You've got many interesting options. Some ideas..

Rings of elemental mastery. Personally I feel this is a good wish for a mist elf, because elemental damage (fireball traps, vortices, etc) is a very common cause of death for them.

Another idea: wish for spellbooks of cure light wounds and milk Jharod for potions of extra healing by repeatedly healing pets. This solves your lack of hitpoints problems very effectively.

Yet another idea: wish for potions of exchange, curse them and drink them, until you get nice stats. With any luck, you should be able to swap your appearance with your toughness score, or something.

Yet another idea: wish for potions of toughness. Simple, effective, and it will probably save you from dieing to the first lightning vortex.

[JellySlayer]

As you say, you aren't really lacking in offensive capabilities for an archer, so find weakness isn't a huge priority. Not that there's anything wrong with more critical hits, of course.

Eternium tower shields wouldn't be a bad choice, assuming you don't have good shields already. Dual-wielding them will give a monster +26 DV +8 PV at minimum, plus associated shield skill bonuses. RDSM isn't a bad choice if your armor isn't great; seven league boots are still decent even after the nerf.

Depending on your toughness score, potions of toughness is not a completely insane wish. If your To is potential capped at 12, say, wishing for potions of To will boost you to 16/20, which you can top up to 20/20 with herbs, and nearly double your HP.

Of course, there's always Khelly to consider as an option. You'll have decent enough PP and caster potential to make that spellbook of teleport somewhat interesting, and the SoCR are always handy, though not essential. Khelly benefits your immediate survival a lot less than any of these other options though.

[edit]As grobble says, rings of elemental mastery are a good idea too. Mind that they don't give acid immunity though! A lot of people forget that.

[SirTheta]

While I don't disagree with the advantage to the ME weaponsmith, not having access to iron is kind of a letdown as far as I'm concerned if you actually want to really take advantage of the weaponsmith's abilities. There just aren't enough higher metal items lying around to give you a whole lot of ingots, whereas you can easily milk 500s worth of iron (4-5 ingots worth) just from a single spear trap, so you can do lots of smithing of iron gear early in the game.I sort of see your point, but I don't know, most mist elf classes don't have too much problem in the early game with PV and doubly so with the damage reduction (all my weaponsmiths start with at least 7 PV since I take Tree). In my dead-to-ACW game, I showed up to the tower with 45 PV just by smithing up a mithril girdle, adamantium large shield, and my elven chain mail (and is almost twice as much as I sometimes show up with). It didn't take too much time and was kind of fun.

[magpie]

I'd usually go for the Amulet of Life Saving, but this game, I've already (having arrived at Dwarftown with two wands of teleportation) got 4 blessed SoRC, 1 cursed SoRC, and an uncursed PoCC (the latter two of which I can, of course, turn to blessed quite easily). The corruption removal from Khelly's loot is the usual reason I choose to save him if I can ... so this, plus the two wands of Teleportation, give me options on what to spend my precious wish on.


Yet another idea: wish for potions of toughness. Simple, effective, and it will probably save you from dieing to the first lightning vortex.

One level below DT, I was rushed by a lightning vortex when I opened a door, which reduced me to 5 HP (from 57). Dying like that would have been amusing.

But with a toughness of 10 (which is capped, by the way), potions of toughness are sounding like an attractive option. Such a small HP pool at level 13 is my major problem right now ... I've found such a collection of good stuff this game, that I'm set for just about everything else except for fire immunity at the moment. I'm just going to keep the ring in my stash until I can decide, I think.

[grobblewobble]

One level below DT, I was rushed by a lightning vortex when I opened a door, which reduced me to 5 HP (from 57). [snip] I'm just going to keep the ring in my stash until I can decide, I think.

Potions of toughness (or any of the other wishes except AoLS) are survival wishes. Those kind of wishes are best if you make them early. You already got nearly killed one time. If you decide later, you could die from the next vortex / trap / lightning lizard / etc with the wish still unused in your backpack.. that would be sad.

[_Ln_]

If you have some morgia (less thsn 10 is enough), one wish for pots of toughness is worth 8 point of To!

Also, dual-wielding shields gives a dynamic penalty (increases with your to-hit) and it's quite savage (unlike what I've originally thought). I've tried blinging challenge just recently and it doesn't seem feasible now in comparison to 1.1.1.

[magpie]

Have wished for potions of toughness - they increased my score to 14 and my potential to 16. Not too shabby!

On an amusing note, (on the way to the ID) I found the iron gauntlets 'Ironfist' for sale in the black market, for 260000 gold.

Of course, I stole them and teleported away (my rationale is that they were probably stolen anyway :D ), but even with Candle starsign and even with a blessed amulet of rapid healing on, they still hurt to wear! So using them is going to be highly situational. But they're still nice to have.

PS: Will killing the summoned thugs further lower my alignment?

[SirTheta]

Of course, I stole them and teleported away (my rationale is that they were probably stolen anyway :D ), but even with Candle starsign and even with a blessed amulet of rapid healing on, they still hurt to wear! So using them is going to be highly situational. But they're still nice to have.Immune to Pain my friend, Immune to Pain.

[_Ln_]

Immune to Pain my friend, Immune to Pain.

Ironfist does 2 points of damage (same as elemental gauntlets) as far as my experience goes.

[grobblewobble]

PS: Will killing the summoned thugs further lower my alignment?

Nope. Robbing the shop probably did curse you.

[SirTheta]

Ironfist does 2 points of damage (same as elemental gauntlets) as far as my experience goes.Immune to pain definitely negates the damage from elemental gauntlets. As far as I know, it is one point of damage per (external) iron item and that's the only calculation.

[magpie]

Immune to Pain my friend, Immune to Pain.

I considered that. But considering I started with a Toughness of 7, raised it to the maximum of 10, and have only got it to 14 with wished-for potions of toughness - ItP is going to take a while to get to.

If I'm in a position to use the gauntlets to achieve a crowning, I'll probably just do that. The possibility of Sun's Messenger makes me drool, and I'd like to get it pre-ToEF if possible.

[zasvid]

Immune to pain definitely negates the damage from elemental gauntlets. As far as I know, it is one point of damage per (external) iron item and that's the only calculation.

It isn't - (at least some) headgear, armor and weapons deal 2. Of course, weapons are easy to handle in gloves. No crowns of fire (or of leadership) for a Mist Elf, though, even one Immune to Pain.

[SirTheta]

Hm, weird. Guess I've never really (consistently) tried anything apart from amulets and the elemental gauntlets. Maybe it is weight based? But then, I think iron caps only do one point of damage per turn as I recall..

[Xequecal]

In the vein of this topic, I've also found Mist Elf Beastfighters to be incredible. While it's pretty hard to survive to level 5, once you get there the game becomes very easy. Beastfighters, for some reason, actually seem to have a very good ability to learn spells, unlike say Barbarians which can't learn anything. They're normally crippled by the lack of Literacy and Concentration, but ME grants both so you have no problems. If you play with Book starsign and eat Keethrax and the Oracle for Learning in the high 20s/low 30s you can start learning ball spells at like level 13, if you manage to find a spellbook of course. I got ~150 spell knowledge of Ice Ball on the first try from a blessed spellbook at level 13 with Learning of 30. Alertness also trains really fast for ME Beastfighters, usually when you get a skill from race only it trains very slowly, but ME Beastfighters can max Alertness at like level 10 or 11. I still had 2d4 advancement die on the skill when I maxed it. 100 Alertness of course makes it really easy to kill Keethrax at low levels, since his ball spell never hits you.

You get a guaranteed tome of Frost Bolt from the druid quest which, if nothing else, makes the ToEF really easy and lets you dispatch fire/lightning vortices that would otherwise kill your low-hp character from range. Wish for Acid Ball, pump Willpower up to 32 with water orb and herbs and abuse the hell out of 700 base movement cost plus Beastfighter class speed boosts with your ball spell. I abused this to beat the Mana Temple very easily, I just stayed out of a direct line with Nuurag and acid balled him to death.

[SirTheta]

The only problem I have with mist elf beastfighters is that their damage output depends HEAVILY on levels and mist elves level really slowly beyond 20 or so. I'd seriously consider trying to take on some EGs, but you'd have a hard time doing much damage. Granted, this experience is based on p7, so I got stuck with the flipping staff of creation since it was guaranteed, and my recent weaponsmith had less trouble gaining levels as I recall...

[magpie]

Well, I've taken up this character again after a long hiatus from ADOM. The first DT quest - kill a berserker prince - ended up being incredibly grindy. I simply stayed in the Big Room and ended up going from level 18 to level 20 before one was generated! However, a very nice set of items were generated in the process - two sets of bracers of toughness +4, a ring of ice, two potions of cure corruption, and all manner of other goodies.

The rest of the DT quests were a cake-walk.

Oh, and I've been crowned (after sacrificing the lead-filled mace, the iron gauntlets and about 60000 gold) - with Thunderstroke - but since my current damage output with it is 20d4+40 (at level 20 and level 5 in crossbows, on normal tactics), I'm not complaining. Sun's Messenger would have been nice, but now that Thunderstroke returns, it's just as good due to sheer damage output (in my opinion). I just one-shot a moloch (with 40 PV and 323 hit points) and a diamond golem (with 51 PV and 282 hit points) with it in DH:2- it's hard to argue with that! :D

My thought now is, I'm going to dive to the Water Temple, take out the Snake, and then go do the Tower - hopefully I will find a useable source of fire immunity.

I know I've said this before (lol), but this character is really well set-up to go all the way. The only problem will be not getting bored and doing something stupid in later levels.

PS: I just lucked out and found another ring of djinni summoning - thoughts on a wish? Red dragon scale mails (no fire immunity, easy source of spenseweed, and my best suit of armour apart for the AMW is a +5 +5 set of elven chain mail)?

Amulet of life saving for Khelavaster? My toughness is just fine now, so I think more potions of toughness would be a waste, since I have other needs with this character now.

[grobblewobble]

PS: I just lucked out and found another ring of djinni summoning - thoughts on a wish? Red dragon scale mails (no fire immunity, easy source of spenseweed, and my best suit of armour apart for the AMW is a +5 +5 set of elven chain mail)?
I'm not a fan of wishing for rdsm beyond the early game (when the pv is still huge). For complete protection against fire damage all you need is four sources of resistance, with intrinsic -fire counting as two.

Intrinsic -fire is easy to get. If you don't have it yet, you'll find a corpse that drops it inside the tower soon enough.
Elemental gauntlets should be worn in any case (for healing with water orb). Then all you need is one more source. Ring of the high kings fits the bill perfectly. If you didn't get that one, just a ring of -fire will do.

As an archer, seven league boots to keep your distance are always a great wish, even with the nerf. Saving Khelavaster isn't bad either. Solves any corruption problems and as a mist elf I guess your learning is probably high enough to get some use out of the books.