More randomness, please?

[Qui]

I feel like ADoM could do with a little bit more randomness, but decided to post here first before making RFEs, just to see if anyone agrees.

Things I think could use some work:

1. Fixed maps.

a) Mazes that are not really mazes anymore.

For example: Pyramid. A dangerous maze full of traps, but experienced/spoiled players will go straight to the stairs. Or even teleport straight to the stairs. Making a dungeon generator specifically for the Pyramid levels might be a waste of TB's time, but perhaps having a few different maps would help. I'd propose having a few versions of the same basic map, with only the stair chamber location in a different place, so that one couldn't tell at first sight which one is it. At the very least, figuring out where are the stairs would require magic mapping.

Current Pyramid level 2:


### ###### #######
#.###########....# #^^^^^#
#....^.....##.######1###^#####
####.######....#.....^.##^#...#
#....# ####.####.####.###^1.<.#
##^### #....^.....# #.# ###...#
###.# ###.########.#############
#.#####........# #....##....#
#.##....>.###.####.#####.#####
##.##.##...# #.#...........##.#
#.....########.#.##.###^#####.#
#####.....##.#.#.######.......#
#...###.##.######.....###.###
##### #.....# #.##### #.#
####### ### ###

Possible alternative:


### ###### #######
#.###########....# #^....#
#....^.....##.######1###^#####
####.######....#.....^.##^#...#
#....# ####.####.####.###...###
##^### #....^.....# #.# ###...#
###.# ###.########.#############
#.#####........# #....##....#
#.##....>.###.####.#####^#####
##.##.##...# #.#........1^^^^^#
#.....########.#.##.###^#####1#
#####.....##.#.#.######...#...#
#...###.##.######.....###.<.#
##### #.....# #.##### #...#
####### ### #####

In this category I'd see 2 Pyramid levels, and underground level with Griff and Nonnak. And maybe parts of Darkforge with the secret doors.

b) Elemental Temples

This I don't find as pressing, but maybe a few different layouts of each temple would be nice? Just for some variety :) (similar to how the branch ends work in DCSS - there are few possible layouts for each, one is randomly chosen each game)

2. Guaranteed artifacts

I don't know if it's just me, but they are pretty damn strong. And I don't mean TotRR or Needle + Sting, which aren't problematic as they are endgame+ weapons.

Ancient Mummy Wrapping - guaranteed source of see invisible, cold immunity, death ray resistance. Having this pretty much renders 3rd and 4th dwarven quests trivial.
Elemental Gauntlets - well, free artifact gauntlets. They are not super powerful maybe, but there isn't much competition for the slot anyway.
Sword of Nonnak - free +5 Wi for mages. Perhaps not that problematic.
Rune-covered trident - now that is problematic, especially for Raven characters. Guaranteed powerful undead and demon slayer at level 36 that you can plan for is neat. At level 16 (or as soon as some sort of water-breathing and teleport is available) is sort of too much.
Elemental Orbs - +10 Wi for mages, +10 St for the rest, just for carrying these around? Now that the corruption levels are going to be reduced, maybe carrying orbs should corrupt too? Although I would not like to see kicking the orbs down to D:48 become optimal play ;).

Now, what to do with these? I'm not sure. Nerf a bit, or make non-guaranteed. For example, have Rehetep drop ankh or the wrapping, not both. Or a heavier alignment hit for digging up Nonnak.

3. Artifacts in general

Well, they are always the same, each game. Now, I am not proposing "randarts" or anything of the sort. What I'm proposing is a small variance in the artifact properties between games. Let's take Rolf's Companion:


It modifies your toughness attribute by +3.
It grants resistance to fire.
This weapon returns when thrown.

It could have 25% chance to also grant shock resistance, 25% chance to also have +3 Str, 10% chance to grant fire immunity instead of resistance (just an example). What it would do is randomize the game a bit, make scrolls of greater identify more useful, and possibly allow TB to add some super-rare 1 in 10000 properties ;).

Not sure how viable from the coding point of view this is, though.

[infe]

Sorry for my english! When i think about ADOM in general the last thing that comes to my mind is lack of randomness, yet i have to agree with everything you wrote. Guaranteed artifacts are very powerfull indeed. Making them exclusive( AMW vs buffed Ankh, Elemental Gauntlets vs Sword of Nonnak) would work -especially if we could decide somehow which one we get. If Orbs in tool slot would grant you doomed or some corruption per turn (both lowered with elemental gauntlets on- would punish casters for chooseing easy +5 Wi) it would be ok. As for rune-covered trident for non-raven born PCs its just ok weapon -nice to know that you can stab some balors with it if RNG didnt gave you something else before. For ravenborn it would be nice to set it at 21-23 level - it would be tricky to get it before ToEF but not impossible and if you can get Orb of Fire before massenger pops you most likely can win without that trident.
Im a bit worried about changing guaranteed artifacts because they feel mandatory when it comes to ride ToEF with weaker classes or not so lucky PCs. That indestructable +10 to PV and other usefull stats and instricts not only easier my way to casino but also made it possible. For example: It would take hell of a lot of skill and luck to tackle ToEF without that protection for rings that elemental gauntlets provide.

[Stingray1]

I love the random maps idea. Maybe even the guaranteed items on PL:1 should be in a different position in different games. I think the Creator is even capable of taking the upstairs, items room and guaranteed traps rooms/corridors and semi-randomize their positions and fully randomize the rest of the levels.

With regards to guaranteed artifacts, the artifacts is almost going to double. How about if some of the new artifacts become a possible alternative, so in one game you'll find the current one and in the next game you'll maybe find one or even another one of the new artifacts?

It is a bit boring that most every character ends up wearing the same gauntlets every game.

[Carter]

Sorry, can't really agree with the "Guaranteed artifacts are too powerful"

ie:

The elemental guantlets are a bit special - i think they are staying as a "always" item since they provide the corruption reduction + resistances you need for the tower, but i do like the idea of randomness, so your AMW isn't always a [1,5], it might be a [2,4] or something.

the AMW is generally needed because it has a source of death resistance which is critical for the archmage, so you can't simply remove it and say that its bad luck if you don't stumble upon another item with that resistance .

I think the game is hard enough without dicking around with the guaranteed items that are pretty important to win the game.

[Stingray1]

Well, I think about half of my characters that reached D:50 either never obtained the elemental gauntlets and AMW or fed them to the demented ratling fairly early.

So, you'll understand if I don't think they are so invaluable. Obviously not important in the sense you might be thinking of to win the game

[SirTheta]

The whole point of some of the guaranteed artifacts is that if you retrieve them, it makes some subsequent challenges easier. That's why they are placed where they are instead of in some random other place further in the game. I guess I wouldn't mind seeing a little bit of randomization for elemental temples/the Pyramid/Griffyard, but a lot of this requested randomness would harm the game, imo.

[anon123]

The Pyramid is already perfectly balanced and it beautifully avoids the "bragging rights item drop" effect. The AMW and ankh are good, good enough to be worn well into the endgame, but not ridiculously powerful nor a guarantee of winning the game by any means. I think there's no need to touch this, be it by altering their stats, only dropping one of either or anything else.

If you don't like that there's "no competition" for e.g. the elemental gauntlets, remember there's forty-something new artifacts waiting to be implemented, and if that RFE to allow prefixes and suffixes on more pieces of armor passes (which I hope it does), even better.

The Chaos Orbs needn't corrupt the PC either. The stat bonuses are big, but you can only equip one at a time, and of their 'u'sable effects healing is the only useful one in my opinion (maybe the mana refill too depending on the circumstances, but that corrupts tremendously).

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I agree with Carter, SirTheta and anon about the guaranteed artifacts. They are clearly designed as they are for a reason and they are well-balanced. Removing any of them would have a negative impact on the game.

The AMW guarantees that you don't need to scum for sources of -Deth for the Archmage, and careful players can get it before facing Li-Hon-Kay. It also has already been nerfed for p21, as it decreases Ap, and I think that will be an interesting tradeoff.

The Ankh is a very good artifact that I personally like to wear until the endgame, but many people prefer an amulet of free action, so it's clearly not OP. It's also worse than the non-guaranteed artifact amulets.

The elemental gauntlets give the player a good foundation for protection in the ToEF, as they not only give one resistance but also protect your rings of ice and fire resistance. Removing them would make many PC's need to grind for items for the ToEF, thus it would make the game more boring. By the way, there is now a pair of non-guaranteed artifact gauntlets, the fencing gloves of St. Montojja, which is pretty awesome, so I wouldn't say the elemental gauntlets are still a must-have item now - and we can always suggest more gauntlets if needed.

Sword of Nonnak is a situational artifact that doesn't really get much use.

The RCT is a good resource, but it comes too late in the game to be a must-have item. Even with Raven-born characters I typically get it when I'm fighting the balors. Comes handy against them, but hey, that gives the Raven starsign some spice, I don't see anything bad about that. Non-Ravens get it so late that it's not even very useful in most of the cases.

The elemental orbs are powerful but hey, they are the Chaos Orbs, dammit! What did you expect them to give, [+1,+0] and sleep resistance? They also add interesting choices in that when you have several, you need to choose which one to carry in the tool slot.

So a big no to making guaranteed artifacts non-guaranteed. A definite yes to some randomization in currently fixed levels like the Pyramid, though.

[Carter]

The Ankh is a very good artifact that I personally like to wear until the endgame, but many people prefer an amulet of free action, so it's clearly not OP. It's also worse than the non-guaranteed artifact amulets.

Lost too many characters to mimics to ever wear the ankh when an amulet of free action is available. Overrated :)

[Carter]

The elemental gauntlets give the player a good foundation for protection in the ToEF, as they not only give one resistance but also protect your rings of ice and fire resistance. Removing them would make many PC's need to grind for items for the ToEF, thus it would make the game more boring. By the way, there is now a pair of non-guaranteed artifact gauntlets, the fencing gloves of St. Montojja, which is pretty awesome, so I wouldn't say the elemental gauntlets are still a must-have item now - and we can always suggest more gauntlets if needed.
.

pretty sure its a bug they aren't generated randomly atm.

[Qui]

The elemental guantlets are a bit special - i think they are staying as a "always" item since they provide the corruption reduction + resistances you need for the tower, but i do like the idea of randomness, so your AMW isn't always a [1,5], it might be a [2,4] or something.

the AMW is generally needed because it has a source of death resistance which is critical for the archmage, so you can't simply remove it and say that its bad luck if you don't stumble upon another item with that resistance .
Well I can agree with death ray resistance being important and having a game without any source of it could suck. Then again, having also see inv and cold immunity on it, I just think it's sort of too useful. Especially that having it relegates ogre-mages (meeting some is guaranteed if you're doing dwarven quests) from a dangerous foe to a pushover. Not to mention that there's a "domain of the Ice Queen" coming soon, I'd hazard a guess that there will be a some cold damage involved. Or not, if you put on AMW ;).

On the other hand, I'd be against varying DV/PV on it, just because 1-2 point difference hardly matters at this point.



If you don't like that there's "no competition" for e.g. the elemental gauntlets, remember there's forty-something new artifacts waiting to be implemented, and if that RFE to allow prefixes and suffixes on more pieces of armor passes (which I hope it does), even better.

The Chaos Orbs needn't corrupt the PC either. The stat bonuses are big, but you can only equip one at a time, and of their 'u'sable effects healing is the only useful one in my opinion (maybe the mana refill too depending on the circumstances, but that corrupts tremendously).

Well, that RFE would be nice to have indeed. Otherwise, there are 2 artifacts at the moment that could compete for the slot. Maybe a few more in the future. If you find them. Doesn't convince me.

As for the orbs, the bonuses are big indeed. Especially that +10Wi for casters. And I'd agree about healing being the only useful effect, but it's very very useful and not all that corrupting really. Especially with the gloves on.



The AMW guarantees that you don't need to scum for sources of -Deth for the Archmage, and careful players can get it before facing Li-Hon-Kay. It also has already been nerfed for p21, as it decreases Ap, and I think that will be an interesting tradeoff.


With overall decrease of corruption I doubt that. Or people will carry it around as a swap.



The elemental orbs are powerful but hey, they are the Chaos Orbs, dammit! What did you expect them to give, [+1,+0] and sleep resistance? They also add interesting choices in that when you have several, you need to choose which one to carry in the tool slot.


No, I'd expect them to be a bit more... chaotic? If you don't 'U'se them, all they do is give you a nice, nice bonus. How surprisingly... pleasant for a Chaos Orb.

[SirTheta]

Well I can agree with death ray resistance being important and having a game without any source of it could suck. Then again, having also see inv and cold immunity on it, I just think it's sort of too useful. Especially that having it relegates ogre-mages (meeting some is guaranteed if you're doing dwarven quests) from a dangerous foe to a pushover. Not to mention that there's a "domain of the Ice Queen" coming soon, I'd hazard a guess that there will be a some cold damage involved. Or not, if you put on AMW ;).I mean...again, that's the whole point of the AMW. It has those attributes (particularly =Cold and +SeeI, less so -Deth) because you're supposed to get it at a point in the game BEFORE you do challenges involving things like ogre magi (and only eventually Nuurgy). Your exact problem with it is its sole reason for existing at that stage in the game, so you're never going to agree with it. (p.s. based on some things TB has posted, I don't think the AMW will make the Ice Queen domain trivial at all).

[Qui]

I mean...again, that's the whole point of the AMW. It has those attributes (particularly =Cold and +SeeI, less so -Deth) because you're supposed to get it at a point in the game BEFORE you do challenges involving things like ogre magi (and only eventually Nuurgy). Your exact problem with it is its sole reason for existing at that stage in the game, so you're never going to agree with it. (p.s. based on some things TB has posted, I don't think the AMW will make the Ice Queen domain trivial at all).

I see your point, and I don't have anything against the concept of "if you get item X before doing Y, Y is going to be easier". Like -Deth for Nuurgy, his still damn dangerous. On the other hand, ogre-mage arena boss and ogre-mages in ogre village go from relatively difficult to trivial. Like, what can they do? Turn invisible (oops, +SeeI) and cast that cold ray of theirs (lol, =Cold).

Still, I made no concrete suggestion for what to do with AMW, so the discussion doesn't have much substance. Therefore, I'd suggest giving it cold resistance instead of immunity. It would still do what it does now, just not that hard.

[Tyrnyx]

On the other hand, ogre-mage arena boss and ogre-mages in ogre village go from relatively difficult to trivial. Like, what can they do? Turn invisible (oops, +SeeI) and cast that cold ray of theirs (lol, =Cold).


Well. One possible solution/item-to-address is to make it so the arena bosses are more varied and all of them on par with the ogre-magi arena boss. Li-Hon-Kay is really the only dangerous one of the three possibilities. If your complaint is that the AMW makes the 4th quest a joke perhaps the change needs to be to the 4th quest and not the AMW. It could go to cold resist. I'd be ok with that.

I would say that Raven-Born Trident is really really strong. But... it's one of many birthsigns. Other signs get it late enough that it doesn't matter in the slightest. I like the Raven born difference. I think that Raven sign's balance is a little strong but in no way broken.

[StViers]

And the change to xp gain might balance out that difference slightly as well

[meekrab]

Well. One possible solution/item-to-address is to make it so the arena bosses are more varied and all of them on par with the ogre-magi arena boss. Li-Hon-Kay is really the only dangerous one of the three possibilities. If your complaint is that the AMW makes the 4th quest a joke perhaps the change needs to be to the 4th quest and not the AMW.
There could be Ogre Prince/Princess/King/Queens in there? Always seemed weird to me that it was just a bunch of ogres and then a witch doctor or two.

[Stingray1]

Well, the cave can be tricky if you enter it without the AMW or as a very low lvl PC. There is an Ogre Lord in there, which along with the Magi is pretty capable of killing some characters. Just because we know the AMW is a good artifact to use in there and have thus solved that riddle, snicker, doesn't mean it isn't difficult enough for those that haven't.

[anon123]

Still, I made no concrete suggestion for what to do with AMW, so the discussion doesn't have much substance. Therefore, I'd suggest giving it cold resistance instead of immunity. It would still do what it does now, just not that hard.

I don't see the problem with it granting cold immunity. It's hardly overpowered. It also allows you to get a different one upon crowning, because getting crowned with =Cold is, currently at least, a major disappointment - a single source of cold resistance (and there are four guaranteed ones) is enough to protect you from all cold-based threats throughout the entire game.

And if you think AMW switching is a mandatory "cheap" trick, that's because we're all already spoiled about it ;)

[Qui]

And if you think AMW switching is a mandatory "cheap" trick, that's because we're all already spoiled about it ;)

Well that's my point exactly, and the whole point of this thread. To make things a bit more random for us "spoiled" players. And remember, inside every unspoiled player there's a spoiled player waiting to get out ;).

(and no, I find it neither cheap, nor mandatory. But yes, if I raid the Pyramid (which I usually do, no reason not to), I will use AMW for encounters I know it is clearly the best for.)

[moozooh]

I think the OP's problem with AMW isn't that it shouldn't have all the useful bonuses, but rather the fact that all of them extremely useful ones are 1) concentranted in the single item, 2) available pretty early on. But as has been said earlier, AMW is hardly the end-all be-all chestpiece, and most players opt to swap it out already by ToEF or shortly afterwards (red and black dragon scale mails, eternium plate mails, and at least two other unique chestpieces can all be considered comparable or superior to AMW, which is really quite enough). The upcoming Ap changes nerf it pretty significantly, so I'd say it needn't be touched.

Elemental gauntlets I don't even begin to fathom how anyone would consider overpowered. Their only redeeming point is being indestructible and mist elf-compatible, the rest is either unneeded or easily outperformed. For one, I prefer to wear a pair of +3 St (or more) gauntlets or gloves with high DV/PV as soon as I find them. Having more artifact gauntlets (as well as bracers, cloaks, and girdles) is definitely a priority. We have almost way too many weapons (of which at least 9-10 are endgame-worthy) and nothing short of an excellent assortment of chestpieces, so filling up the less popular slots is definitely a good and overdue idea.

[SirTheta]

I very much agree with moozooh's post. I personally rarely wear AMW into end-game nowadays and only equip it for Nuurgy/GUV.


Their only redeeming point is being indestructible and mist elf-compatible, the rest is either unneeded or easily outperformed.Small correction: the only artifact gauntlet that is mist elf-compatible is the fencing gloves of St. Montojja, which afaik can only be generated by crowning on a duelist. Elemental gauntlets are pretty nice if you ever have to use a chaos orb, but such situation is generally fairly rare and I, too, often swap them out [usually for thick gauntlets because I have terrible luck].