Dissapointing first ever precrown :(

[brett13r]

my lvl 9 dwarf paladin finally got a precrown on DD:2 and my god gave me a heavy crossbow with a couple diffrent quarrles.

I dont use crossbows, I guess it will start it says (3+,3+)
I dont know if its an artifact, haven't identified it yet but I hope it is.
Is a artifact guareented when precrowning?

[brett13r]

I identified everything with a blessed scroll. It appears it is not an artifact just uncursed and my quarrels are "thunderstroke" and 4 eternium quarrels with (1+, 4d6+8) also i have a dark elven quarrel

[SirTheta]

The artifact you got is Thunderstroke, which is fantastic.

Be disappointed when you get the f'ing black tome or Cat's Claw.

[Drifted]

EDIT: My bad :P Not Far Slayer. Still be happy you didn't get something like black book.

Yep, you are now a proud owner of Far Slayer. Pre/postcrowning is always a bit of a gamble as you can get any artifact that isn't guaranteed (elemental gauntlets, ring of the high kings etc.). But don't worry there is a lot of more awful artifacts than Far Slayer for paladins.

[Utnapishtim]

And in case you are confused about the possible relation of the crossbow and the Thunderstroke: the crossbow you picked up had nothing to do with the precrowning, it was just a coincidence that a random crossbow was lying on the floor at the same time as you received the best quarrel in the game.

[SirTheta]

And in case you are confused about the possible relation of the crossbow and the Thunderstroke: the crossbow you picked up had nothing to do with the precrowning, it was just a coincidence that a random crossbow was lying on the floor at the same time as you received the best quarrel in the game.Uh, this couldn't be more wrong. When you're crowned or precrowned with Thunderstroke, it comes with some random quarrels and also a crossbow (in case you don't have one). An analogous situations happens with True Aim.

[Silfir]

That's not actually true - every crowning gift of True Aim or Thunderstroke comes with a complimentary missile weapon. Who says deities have poor customer service?

[Mobius]

I identified everything with a blessed scroll. It appears it is not an artifact just uncursed and my quarrels are "thunderstroke" and 4 eternium quarrels with (1+, 4d6+8) also i have a dark elven quarrel

Don't knock thunderstroke - I've killed the emperor moloch with it. auto-returning is very pleasant for it.

[JellySlayer]

I identified everything with a blessed scroll. It appears it is not an artifact just uncursed and my quarrels are "thunderstroke" and 4 eternium quarrels with (1+, 4d6+8) also i have a dark elven quarrel

Thunderstroke is the artifact. Try it out with the crossbow. It's pretty powerful.

[brett13r]

Yea I take back what I said. I shortly found out how powerful the Thunderstroke is lol. (+8, 20d4+8). And it comes back to me 4 out 5 times. Is it possible for it to dissapear after I shoot it?
Needless to say im am getting skilled at crossbows. Killed the black druid in 2 hits with it lol.

[Blasphemous]

Sometimes it will not return but it will never disappear and will never be destroyed - it's an artifact after all.
Just walk to it and pick it up.
With more dexterity, you will almost always catch it.

[Utnapishtim]

Uh, this couldn't be more wrong. When you're crowned or precrowned with Thunderstroke, it comes with some random quarrels and also a crossbow (in case you don't have one). An analogous situations happens with True Aim.


That's not actually true - every crowning gift of True Aim or Thunderstroke comes with a complimentary missile weapon. Who says deities have poor customer service?

Ok, I stand corrected then.
Have only received it once, and had no recollection it came with a missile weapon. What probably happened was that I just ignored the crossbow, thinking it was some random loot already lying on the ground.

E: Ah, that "in case you don't have one" probably explains it.

[anon123]

Who says deities have poor customer service?

Anyone who has prayed for health while tackling the ACW and instead received a pick-axe :)

Enjoy Thunderstroke. A 20d4+8 quarrel that returns is very powerful this early in the game.

[mewmew]

What's the point of pre-crown when you can just crown and then post-crown?

[anon123]

What's the point of pre-crown when you can just crown and then post-crown?

Crowning generates an artifact, which pushes any potential postcrowning by another three levels. Regular crowning has no experience or artifact count requirements, but it requires you to maintain your alignment from there on if you don't want to lose some of the perks. So precrowning first is more efficient, especially in the early game when most people 1. will do it in hopes of receiving a good artifact, 2. won't want to keep their current alignment forever, depending on the playing style and ending they're going for.

[JellySlayer]

Depending on your class, precrown may give a better artifact as well. If you're a Farmer or Thief, crowning isn't really that exciting.

[Blasphemous]

I don't normally post-crown. I choose to pre-crown because it's possible on relatively low levels if the right altar(s) are found in convenient location(s) and like somebody has mentioned - gives flexibility.
Pre-crowning on L altar as lawful is the easiest and safest of all three alignments.
You can step on the altar any time without risk of being sacced and every monster generated is either N or C, save for a rare blink dog that is not hostile and can be easily lured off the level.
You may very well get pre-crowned while lawful on an L altar, then proceed to slaughter innocent things, drop to C or C- and crown.
After one pre-crown, I typically visit pyramid and griffyard - actions that increase artifact count by 3 or 4 (sometimes 5 if something nice is dug out from a grave) and pretty much mean I will never pre or post crown again.
After that I'm just going for normal crowning if I decide on the final alignment and/or ultra.

Sometimes it works in synergy. My most recent high elven healer was precrowned with silvery arrow "True Aim" at level 11.
I proceeded to use the arrow with various bows and trained them to level 10.
Then around lvl 18 I got crowned L+ and received... Sun's Messenger.
Needless to say, a combination of artifact missile and artifact bow is pretty powerful.
Later, there was a greater undead vault found, with 10 emperor liches inside. It was an interesting game to say the least ;)
If I crowned earlier, I might have never received the artifact arrow since I wouldn't bother with post-crowning.

One last thing to consider is that it's a bit more difficult to achieve extreme alignment necessary for a crowning early on.
Later however, it pretty much comes naturally, by killing highly chaotic monsters in the tower of flames or the undead at griffyard.
Also gathering enough piety for crowning is easier later in the game.
This is another thing that makes pre-crown -> crown order of events more viable.

[Sardaukar]

Far Slayer for Dwarven Priest was bit of let-down. Not that it's not kick-ass crossbow, just that quarrels are harder to come by than arrows.

Plus my character had trained slings and bows and thrown rocks..not crossbows. :p

[mewmew]

One last thing to consider is that it's a bit more difficult to achieve extreme alignment necessary for a crowning early on.
Later however, it pretty much comes naturally, by killing highly chaotic monsters in the tower of flames or the undead at griffyard.

Well, one can use the guaranteed amulet of order/chaos, also n= isn't hard to achieve.


Also gathering enough piety for crowning is easier later in the game.
This is another thing that makes pre-crown -> crown order of events more viable.

hm, I thought it was the same amount of piety and it depended on align only.

My current char got pre-crowned at lvl 8 and I thought I could crown if I waited for the quest to kill Hotzenplotz and 1-2 levels after before sacrificing some more monsters. I got some shield with death ray and paralization immunity... I'm disappoint, if I went for crowning I could have an early arrow/bolt and now I should gather the piety again.

[Blasphemous]

In terms of piety required, pre/post crownings fall into the same bag with normal crowning.
If you get pre-crowned you need roughly 4 times more sacrificing for a subsequent crowning.
It's not alignment dependent, i.e. you can precrown as L but if you want to crown as C-, you still need 4 times more piety than for the precrown, even though the deities are different for each.
As for N=, it's the least desirable in my opinion. Many monsters are neutral and sacrificing them on N altars will cause a piety drop and possibly altar alignment will change to chaotic.
Also it's much more difficult to keep neutral alignment - you can't kill too many chaotic beings or you will shift towards L, you can't dig up too many graves or stab hostile farmers without dropping to C.
It's best to just select either of the extreme alignments. Personally, the single game I ever played as N= was a torment as I had to constantly keep the alignment in check. Sometimes it would go N- or even NC, another time it would almost go to NL.
Using amulets of order/chaos to get extreme alignment is very time consuming, the more so, the higher the level of your character.
Much better to just kill a bunch of (greater) molochs, demons or ancient dragons/wyrms to get to L+. You get some nice loot for the latter, and lots of experience for the former.
It's even easier to get to C-. Just stab children, farmers, goodwives, steal, disturb graves, kick cute dogs and mutilate white unicorns with acidic fluids.

[magpie]

It seems that, if you get Thunderstroke, you always get a +3 +3 crossbow with it. I was just crowned with my Mist Elf archer, and he received a +3 +3 heavy crossbow with his obsidian quarrel as well. And I had a whole bunch of good ranged weapons in my backpack, too!

[Jursk]

First ever pre-crown for me just now with a ratling archer. got a bee-hive nicely next to a lawful altar: A light shines brightly beneath your feet, a thin dagger is laying under your feet. Cats Claw lol, but ok for an archer i guess..

[Stingray1]

A while back I had a Trollish Westside Beastfighter pre-crown with Cat's Claw, boy was I upset I didn't go for crowning instead.

[magpie]

It seems that, if you get Thunderstroke, you always get a +3 +3 crossbow with it. I was just crowned with my Mist Elf archer, and he received a +3 +3 heavy crossbow with his obsidian quarrel as well. And I had a whole bunch of good ranged weapons in my backpack, too!

Responding to myself here, but this has been confirmed - I've been crowned with Thunderstroke 3 times now, and 3 times I got a +3 +3 heavy crossbow with it.

I know 3 times isn't a very big sample size at all, but if this reward could vary, there's so many variables that it would have varied at least once by now.

Can anyone else confirm this?

[_Ln_]

Responding to myself here, but this has been confirmed - I've been crowned with Thunderstroke 3 times now, and 3 times I got a +3 +3 heavy crossbow with it.

I know 3 times isn't a very big sample size at all, but if this reward could vary, there's so many variables that it would have varied at least once by now.

Can anyone else confirm this?

(+3, +3) are the base stats for heavy crossbows. Might be chance, might be a special case of item generation where variation is disabled.

[Maul]

It's funny how Thunderstroke and True Aim went from "barely good enough to be ratling fodder" to "great (pre)crowning gift".

Also, a sample size of 3 says nothing. Next time you get crowned with a class that gets it as a crowning gift, backup the save and try it a lot of times. Hey, if I remember to do it, I'll do so as well.

[YourMum]

Responding to myself here, but this has been confirmed - I've been crowned with Thunderstroke 3 times now, and 3 times I got a +3 +3 heavy crossbow with it.

I know 3 times isn't a very big sample size at all, but if this reward could vary, there's so many variables that it would have varied at least once by now.

Can anyone else confirm this?

Last time I got thunder stroke I got a heavy crossbow and a few decent quarrels with it. Don't remember the crossbow stats cuz I had a heavy crossbow of accuracy and used that instead

[Tyrnyx]

As for N=, it's the least desirable in my opinion. Many monsters are neutral and sacrificing them on N altars will cause a piety drop and possibly altar alignment will change to chaotic.
Also it's much more difficult to keep neutral alignment - you can't kill too many chaotic beings or you will shift towards L, you can't dig up too many graves or stab hostile farmers without dropping to C.
It's best to just select either of the extreme alignments. Personally, the single game I ever played as N= was a torment as I had to constantly keep the alignment in check. Sometimes it would go N- or even NC, another time it would almost go to NL.
Using amulets of order/chaos to get extreme alignment is very time consuming, the more so, the higher the level of your character.
Much better to just kill a bunch of (greater) molochs, demons or ancient dragons/wyrms to get to L+. You get some nice loot for the latter, and lots of experience for the former.
It's even easier to get to C-. Just stab children, farmers, goodwives, steal, disturb graves, kick cute dogs and mutilate white unicorns with acidic fluids.

It seems as though we have opposite play styles. I have always crowned N=. Only once L+ and that was for the platinum girdle. There are a bunch of monsters have the neutral alignment but after a while you learn to know what they are and what the exceptions are. Yes, it takes a bit longer but it does allow you to get crowned super early as opposed to later in the game. Admittedly it only takes to about level 16 or so to become L+ without trying too hard (amulet of order) but that's still later than I would want for some classes (i.e. barbs)

Also crowning C- has some major draw backs especially if you do it early in the game. Cutting off at least a good chunk of quests, extra corruption rate and two corruptions right off the bat. It can get ugly.

So for earliest and least dabilitating crowning I opt for N=.

I never pre-crown unless I have a super easy alter and I'm playing a class with poor crowning gifts. Then again neutral alignment's playstyle is my normal one. Never bother robbing graves or shops/casino. Just seems like a waste of time often. Unless you get thunderstroke as your gift, jesus the thing is like a ranged minotaur axe. :)

[divij]

i agree with the post abv...n is the best way to get crowned. also i like to hold on to piety so i rarely convert until i know i wnt be needing prayers for a while. also n means u get the good stuff from mystic! and most monsters i face seem to b chaotic neways. tho i think L is good as well since lower corruption rate.

[magpie]

I think there's advantages and disadvantages to all 3:

Lawful:

Advantages: Less corruption. Lawful sentient creatures are rare, and usually generated neutral or friendly if you're lawful, so you're not likely to be sacced by one in a careless moment. Also, most monsters are neutral or chaotic, so you can sac pretty much everything.
Disadvantages: You can't sacrifice Lawful creatures, although these are rare. Also, it's harder to get to L+ and to remain there.

Neutral:
Advantages: Neutral altars are the most common (from my own experience they're about as common as lawful and chaotic altars combined). Best rewards from Dwarven Mystic for being neutral (although Your Mileage May Differ on this one).
Disadvantages: You can't sacrifice Neutral creatures, and many creatures are Neutral, so this is a pretty big one.

Chaotic:
Advantages: You can sac anything, a Chaotic God doesn't mind if you sac chaotics.
Disadvantages: Being corrupted is a pretty big disadvantage! Plus, this road cuts you off from a lot of quests (if you're at a point in the game where quests matter).

That said, I almost always become Neutral because it's the most common altar, it allows you access to all quests, and it's easier to become N= than become L+ or C- and easier to remain so. Plus, the good DM reward.

[magpie]

Also, a sample size of 3 says nothing. Next time you get crowned with a class that gets it as a crowning gift, backup the save and try it a lot of times.

Yeah, I know that, and I agree the idea needs more testing. I do think that if the numbers could vary, they would have - but yeah, more testing is required. ;)

[YourMum]

I'll try to pre-crown C or L as its easier. L is safer too as I doubt if blinkdogs can sac you. I'll do the lawful quests from the village, do what I need to do as a neutral (thief training, getting rewards from the mystic etc) then claim the rewards for the lawful quests to give me a boost back to L+ for crowning. I used to stick to neutral as it's good for quests and the mystic but bring a bit more confident in my playing I'm happier to swap about a bit more for the corruption reduction you get as crowning lawful.

[magpie]

L is safer too as I doubt if blinkdogs can sac you.

Monsters need to be able to speak to sacrifice - barking or woofing doesn't count. So, as a lawful, you're pretty safe - the only monsters that theoretically could sacrifice you are dwarves of various kinds, ki-rin, and holy slayers. I mean, there's other lawful NPCS in the game, but they're not found on dungeon levels - and ki-rin and holy slayers are rare as hen's teeth.