A better start/potential as a ranged class - Hurtling Archer or Hurtling Assassin?

[mewmew]

Since I probably will not get 'Find weakness' on an archer. Both classes would start with almost the same level in rock throwing (4 v 5) and I'm going to throw rocks and lumps of clay till late game (throwing lumps of clay trains rock throwing, they don't destroy on impact but cannot be used with slings). Fletching isn't as useful for hurthings, assassins get some missile range distance increasing too albeit less and later, both classes have 'Dodge' and 'Alertness' (and assassins have 'Trap Detection' without that annoying quest, also they have 'Alchemy' and can make potions of poison), but I'm not sure about 'Archery' skill progress and about the whole potential. Some of archer's class powers make shooting faster and at lvl 40 make missiles penetrate armor with some chance, but assassins get critical hit and dodge bonus as class powers (also not sure if their backstab works with ranged weapon), leaving aside the possibility to instakill at lvl 50
So, who is better overall? Theoretically it should be archer of course but I don't really see if it has a significant advantage.

[Moeba]

Archer, theoretically they have doubled range instead of +30% (yeah, it probably won't matter too much in practice due to the line of sight); but the most important thing is that they can almost shoot twice in one turn from lvl 25 on. And when necessary, you can usually make it good enough (light a torch, drink boost perception or w/e).
For defensive matters, archer also owns for the unique ability to dodge enemy ranged attacks.

Alchemy is pretty nice, but just a way of creating rare potions from other rare potions. So you won't really use it much in practice. Poison only works in melee, which is completely irrelevant when you can shoot - except for the dopplegangers.

Find weakness is a pro for assassins, of course. I'm not sure how much it increases the chance to crit, though; and generally the damage output is not a weak spot for an archer.

[Mobius]

With Archer, do train other ranged types too, so you get to use the slaying ammo you find. Or if you find a nice xbow / bow, you'll be ready for it.

I've also read / experienced that Archery skill does not train with thrown rocks.

[grobblewobble]

Archers are much better at range because of the faster shooting.

[sylph]

This isn't totally hands-down. Find weakness *massively* increases damage with ranged attacks (I think crits/slaying do x2 damage in melee, but ~x5 with ranged!)

To address a few other mistakes in this thread, poison does work with ranged attacks. In fact, 1 potion of poison will allows 2-3 poisoned attacks on your melee weapon, but dipping a stack of 9 arrows into a potion of poison will allow ~25 poisoned attacks for the same amount of poison. Ranged attacks are usually by far the best way of applying poison.

Also, offensive alchemy is a huge part of playing an assassin, and fits a very important niche for these ranged characters - being surrounded/trapped in melee. Alchemy isn't just for mixing nice potions.

Overall, I'd still say the best is the archer, due to their crazy abuse with the 'lightning shot' talent, but there are a lot of lovely advantages to playing an assassin. As an aside, I'd say a hurthling is wasted on an assassin. Level 4 thrown knives gives all races good starting missiles, so the thrown rocks advantage is wasted. Also, the best thing about hurthlings is their archery skill, which is wasted on any class that already has this skill. I'd sooner take a drakeling assassin, or an orc/dark elf archer, for an abusively strong character. :)

[JellySlayer]

Archers are far, far better shooters than Assassins. It isn't even close.

Aside from the speed, archers gain extra to-hit and damage on missiles every level. You can easily do triple damage that the Assassin is doing by the midgame, even accounting for Find Weakness.

Also, unless you're specifically playing a thrown rock specialist, both classes will benefit immensely from using bows/arrows, xbows/quarrels, or even slings. Four ranks of missile skill is easy to replace, so thrown weapons are pretty marginal, actually (hurthlings require fewer marks to train in slings, so they actually gain ranks faster than them in the long term).

[sylph]

archers gain extra to-hit and damage on missiles every level.

I've never heard of this before! How _much_ damage and to-hit do archers get based on their level? Does it compare favourably to the assassin's level 25 +crit chance, and find weakness', bearing in mind that critical hits with missiles do 2-5x damage.
(Note - find weakness only gives +12.5% crits with ranged attacks, I'm unsure whether the assassin's level 25 power is similarly diminished at range)

(Also, worth putting in a side-note that the two strongest archers I ever made in ADOM used spears, and daggers, as their main throwing attack. The spear thrower was a pretty legit, un-scummy ravenborn highelf that used the rune covered trident and the trident of the red rooster, which with the level 50 archer power is pretty fun! The second was a gremlin-bomber who threw phase daggers, and was ridiculous.)

[JellySlayer]

A quick check suggests I might be mistaken. Archers to get massive to-hit with missiles as they level, but don't seem to get extra damage, beyond getting double the usual archery bonus.

I don't know if the assassin's crit ability applies to missiles at all, have never tested.

[grobblewobble]

(Note - find weakness only gives +12.5% crits with ranged attacks, I'm unsure whether the assassin's level 25 power is similarly diminished at range)
The assassin +crit class power is an interesting point, would be interesting to know if this fully works for ranged attacks. Then again, that class power is really a late game factor. A very big advantage that archers have (and kicks in earlier) is the crowning gifts. Archers have 4/6 to get crowned with a ranged superweapon. If you count whirlwind, 5/6.

[sylph]

True, superweapons being available is nice, but as far as I'm concerned it's a moot point.
My afforementioned spear-throwing archer never found a girdle of carrying, but still never encountered ammo problems all game, and the rune-covered trident is available to any ravenborn character way before they're likely to get precrowned. (Raven is pretty much the go-to star for ranged characters regardless.)

I agree though, conventionally archers are better at range, mainly because of their low energy cost attacks, but when an assassin starts using offensive alchemy, poison, and find weakness ranged attacks, they're as good at archers at taking down the temples, which is what's important most of the time.

[JellySlayer]

As soon as you start using slaying ammo, though, then Find Weakness is irrelevant.

[mewmew]

Moeba
>but the most important thing is that they can almost shoot twice in one turn from lvl 25 on
grobblewobble
>Archers are much better at range because of the faster shooting.

I see. That's the main selling point then.

JellySlayer
>Also, unless you're specifically playing a thrown rock specialist, both classes will benefit immensely from using bows/arrows, xbows/quarrels, or even slings. Four ranks of missile skill is easy to replace, so thrown weapons are pretty marginal, actually (hurthlings require fewer marks to train in slings, so they actually gain ranks faster than them in the long term).
Mobius
>With Archer, do train other ranged types too, so you get to use the slaying ammo you find. Or if you find a nice xbow / bow, you'll be ready for it.

Oh, definitely, i was going to pick a bow or something since lvl 20 or so. Rocks are the easiest to find, and those lumps of clay which I mentioned don't break at all, so they remove the missile grinding annoyance significantly. Clay trains rock throwing but cannot be used with slings.

>I've also read / experienced that Archery skill does not train with thrown rocks.

That's rather irrelevant since I can train it on level-ups and get to 100 quite fast anyway.

sylph
>As an aside, I'd say a hurthling is wasted on an assassin. Level 4 thrown knives gives all races good starting missiles, so the thrown rocks advantage is wasted.

There isn't nearly enough of them though, one should rely on melee for ordinary enemies then.

>orc/dark elf archer

Well, orc has low dex and very short lifespan and since I just lost a hurthling archer recently being chain confused by a master lich and aged to death by a ghost lord... I'm afraid to play somebody with so ridiculously low life span as an orc. Dark elf sounds interesting, their starting weapon sucks though.

>Note - find weakness only gives +12.5% crits with ranged attacks

Oh, really? It's a pity. Wiki doesn't mention it ;_;

[Soirana]

(throwing lumps of clay trains rock throwing, they don't destroy on impact but cannot be used with slings).
but I'm not sure about 'Archery' skill progress and about the whole potential.

Can't you put clay in missile slot and after put sling on? Or that was fixed maybe.

Archery does give different bonus for archers and other [as per in game manual]
at 100 archers get +10 to hit and +5 damage
at 100 non-archers +4 to hit +2 to damage.
Well, essentially for non-archers Archery is not skill you care much about. You get I think +2 to hit with missiles from maxed Concentration for example.

Archers also get missile dodge ability [not only lv32 they dodge [dodge as stuff fly through the char tile differently from misses there missile ends on char tile] some even at lv1] and if we speak about lv50 - turning arrows into bolts is supersweet. My record was like 7 gnolls with one shot i think.

So for ranged archers are the main thing.

[_Ln_]

Hurthling assassins start with a boomerang, so their only advantage over archers is cool points. Anyway, what others said. With a returning weapon (artifact missiles, RCT) level 50 class power is one of the best thing ever.

[sylph]

for non-archers Archery is not skill you care much about. You get I think +2 to hit with missiles from maxed Concentration for example.

It's not important for the bonuses though, it's important for the 'lightning shot' talent.

[mewmew]

Can't you put clay in missile slot and after put sling on? Or that was fixed maybe.

Yes, I tried it both ways, it doesn't work.

Anyway, thanks to all advice in the thread my new favorite combo is raven (got that sign twice in a row completely randomly) born dark elven archer now.

On a side note, I hate that first quest in the Dwarftown, that old dwarf always gives me something hard to find like shadow lord or troll berserker. The easiest one was a chaos plague bearer which just needs lvl 16 to get it as a possible encounter.