PDA

View Full Version : Lifespans and game balance



Worst Player... ever
03-26-2008, 04:53 PM
I nearly always play humans so I would say this, but I think it could be easy for race to unbalance JADE.

This isn't like ADOM, where the whole affair is resolved in under a year game time. In JADE, once you get past the early difficult levels it will probably be fairly easy to survive. At that point the only limit on you presumably would be age. So what's stopping any long-lived PC character from becoming a completely unstoppable God?

Are there going to be ceilings on the longer lived races to counteract this? Say, elves can never have a To over 15 or more than 200 hp, whereas humans might be able to get much higher while they are alive?

theotherhiveking
03-26-2008, 05:09 PM
Dunno, But i think that the time slapsed in the video is totally wrong, i mean that trip should take not more than 4 months, 2.5 on the average, because look how distant are the cities, wearing food for just a small trip there would insta crush you.

Macros
03-26-2008, 07:26 PM
I think there is one solution to that problem - horses. It's logical that traveling on foot should take lot of time, but if NPC could ride on horse, then time needed to travel from point A to point B would be greatly reduced(in practice it would work like blessed seven league boots in Adom, or even better). Player would be able to buy horses in towns for reasonable price(so getting one wouldn't be too big problem), and use it to travel on world map. Also, horseback riding skill would be nice(player with high horseback riding skill would be able to travel much faster than not skilled player).

That should fix the problem.

Tannis
03-26-2008, 07:35 PM
I think there is one solution to that problem - horses. It's logical that traveling on foot should take lot of time, but if NPC could ride on horse, then time needed to travel from point A to point B would be greatly reduced(in practice it would work like blessed seven league boots in Adom, or even better). Player would be able to buy horses in towns for reasonable price(so getting one wouldn't be too big problem), and use it to travel on world map. Also, horseback riding skill would be nice(player with high horseback riding skill would be able to travel much faster than not skilled player).

That should fix the problem.

It fixes the issue of travel, but the problem posed by aging remains. A troll dies at 50 and an elf can live over 1000 years. If there are easy ways to raise stats, such as scumming for potions of gain attribute, a patient elf could easily max all stats out.

Horses solve the traveling issue (and a very nice solution indeed). The problem with ultra long life spans is to cut out as much scumming in the game as possible.

Macros
03-26-2008, 08:19 PM
It fixes the issue of travel, but the problem posed by aging remains. A troll dies at 50 and an elf can live over 1000 years. If there are easy ways to raise stats, such as scumming for potions of gain attribute, a patient elf could easily max all stats out.

Isn't it exactly like in Adom right now?

About scumming. There shouldn't be easy way to raise your stats(like bug corpses in Adom 1.0.0, or ring of weakness in current version). In Adom right now, there also are ways to scumm your stats to high values, but aging of PC isn't really an issue there(age of PC doesn't really matter here, whenever it's long living race, or not). With removing problem of aging of PC while traveling in wilderness(by horses for example), I don't see any other problems here.

Tannis
03-26-2008, 08:28 PM
Isn't it exactly like in Adom right now?

About scumming. There shouldn't be easy way to raise your stats(like bug corpses in Adom 1.0.0, or ring of weakness in current version). In Adom right now, there also are ways to scumm your stats to high values, but aging of PC isn't really an issue there(age of PC doesn't really matter here, whenever it's long living race, or not). With removing problem of aging of PC while traveling in wilderness(by horses for example), I don't see any other problems here.

Well, we're really on the same page here. Scumming from items and corpses has to be removed, ideally via hard caps. In ADOM you can't scum for potions of gain attributes forever, since eventually corruption is too much of an issue past day 90. Since JADE won't have this issue, if scumming is possible, a race that could live for a 1000 years would obviously benefit more. As we're both saying, the trick is to just get rid of scumming.

Your horse idea solves the travel option, and opens the door for mounted combat which would be great. Perhaps adding lances to the game, which can only be used when mounted.

Worst Player... ever
03-26-2008, 08:36 PM
Isn't it exactly like in Adom right now?

About scumming. There shouldn't be easy way to raise your stats(like bug corpses in Adom 1.0.0, or ring of weakness in current version). In Adom right now, there also are ways to scumm your stats to high values, but aging of PC isn't really an issue there(age of PC doesn't really matter here, whenever it's long living race, or not). With removing problem of aging of PC while traveling in wilderness(by horses for example), I don't see any other problems here.

It's different in ADOM because ADOM has a defined end that is well within the limits of any type of character. Age only becomes an issue when you're hit by a ghost, plus you've got corruption to hurry you up a bit.

With travelling... horses are a good solution, but I think if you want to ride your horse to someplace on the other side of the world, it should still take several months. Aging should be a part of the game, because there is nothing else limiting the progress of a character other than getting killed by a monster. Eventually, any character will become godlike if he has a virtually unlimited amount of time in which to do it.

If stats can be drained, it's still best that we have ways to raise them also. But it doesn't matter how hard or easy it is to raise your stats. Whatever method is chosen, people will figure out the optimal way to do it. Maybe we can make the chance of a scumming technique to work be dependent not only on the attributes stat, but on race. ie... a human with 16 Str who eats an Ogre corpse will get a point of Str 50% of the time, whereas an elf with 16 str who does it might have a 3% chance. Or even a 0 percent chance for Elves - after all, the lifespan should allow them to make up for this deficiency with talents, spells, and equipment.

rmcin329
03-26-2008, 08:41 PM
In ADOM you can't scum for potions of gain attributes forever, since eventually corruption is too much of an issue past day 90.


Uh actually dragons can drop potions of gain attributes, and theres 2 dragons you can scum in the wilderness, which is a corruption free area(save for a few monsters that corrupt on hitting you). Black dragons in the swamp, and red dragons in the mountains. Also don't forget people can always use alchemy to make them, gain attributes pots is always the final recipe you receive. Doesn't matter if they start with alchemy or not, wish engine could get it.

Nezur
03-26-2008, 09:21 PM
I think there is one solution to that problem - horses. It's logical that traveling on foot should take lot of time, but if NPC could ride on horse, then time needed to travel from point A to point B would be greatly reduced(in practice it would work like blessed seven league boots in Adom, or even better). Player would be able to buy horses in towns for reasonable price(so getting one wouldn't be too big problem), and use it to travel on world map. Also, horseback riding skill would be nice(player with high horseback riding skill would be able to travel much faster than not skilled player).

That should fix the problem.

Yes, I second mounts as well. I've had that idea in my mind for a while and I had considered posting a thread regarding the subject. There could of course be even faster mounts than mundane horses.

If there will be a definitive end in the game the time the PC is allowed to spend to complete the major task could be limited to 7 - 10 years.

Worst Player... ever
03-26-2008, 11:59 PM
If there will be a definitive end in the game the time the PC is allowed to spend to complete the major task could be limited to 7 - 10 years.

I thought the point of JADE was that there was no major task. At least I hope that was the point. :)

myrddin
03-27-2008, 12:02 AM
Someone else suggested having portals in the game - I think that's a good idea. ADOM did something similiar with the shortcut in DF to deep levels of the CoC but this could easily be expanded by having "portals" and having several around.

There should also be a portal spell - where you can cast a "set portal" at a location - then wherever you are if you cast "return to portal" it transports you to where you "set" the portal at. Once you do this you have to recast your "set portal" though. This spell should also, of course, cost a lot of PP.

Dougy
03-27-2008, 05:09 AM
Well, many roguelikes have the "scroll of recall" which is missing from ADOM and I suspect that wasn't an accident. I suspect TB isn't a fan of greater teleportation skills, but JADE may be a different story altogether.

Perhaps a "retrace" option. You store the position where you are and the computer will remember your steps thereafter. When you press the retrace button your steps will be replayed in reverse until interrupted. When interrupted the comp will automatically start saving your steps again so you can sort out the problems and continue retracing.

Nezur
03-27-2008, 08:24 AM
I thought the point of JADE was that there was no major task. At least I hope that was the point. :)

I do hope you will be able to win the game in a way or another. It would feel pointless to just complete quests without an ultimate end.

Dougy
03-27-2008, 11:01 AM
I think JADE is more about not having an obligation to complete a major task (one of possibly many).

Macros
03-27-2008, 11:12 AM
It's different in ADOM because ADOM has a defined end that is well within the limits of any type of character. Age only becomes an issue when you're hit by a ghost, plus you've got corruption to hurry you up a bit.

Actually it isn't. Adom has a defined end, Jade probably also will have it(I hope, Creator didn't said that there will be no classic ending. Corruption won't hurry you up, because wilderness(and some other locations that can be scummed as well) is non corrupting area, even after day 90. As someone pointed out, you already can scumm red/black dragons(and few other monsters, like quicklings), and in Adom it's not an issue right now(have you heard about anyone that was scumming so long, that he died from old age?), therefore assuming that problem of travelling will be fixed somehow in JADE(by mounts for example), why it should be a problem there?

Epythic
03-27-2008, 12:37 PM
Please no caps!!


Are there going to be ceilings on the longer lived races to counteract this? Say, elves can never have a To over 15 or more than 200 hp, whereas humans might be able to get much higher while they are alive?

NEVER! Dont do this. No ceilings.

Actually, I think some sort of logarithmic behaviour for the time-strength-function would be the way to go. That means, you can get from 1 to 2 in no time, but it takes LOTS of work from 99 to 100, and even more work from 100 to 101.

Of course trying to implement this is another story...


I think there is one solution to that problem - horses. It's logical that traveling on foot should take lot of time, but if NPC could ride on horse, then time needed to travel from point A to point B would be greatly reduced(in practice it would work like blessed seven league boots in Adom, or even better). Player would be able to buy horses in towns for reasonable price(so getting one wouldn't be too big problem), and use it to travel on world map. Also, horseback riding skill would be nice(player with high horseback riding skill would be able to travel much faster than not skilled player).

That should fix the problem.

But it brings other problems. For example, you dont want to allow the player to ride his horse into his neighbors house. You would need a way to restrict the player from moving there while mounted. Also, horses and dungeons. Horses and stairs (yay). Horses in towers.

If you dont limit the use of horses, players will take them everywhere. Free speed boost.

Oh and one more thing: you would need a second version for every skill, otherwise Horse + Archer is either not possible (not a good idea) or uberweapon (equally bad).

Not that I dont like the idea, but... hmm...


I thought the point of JADE was that there was no major task. At least I hope that was the point. :)

I really hope so too.

Nezur
03-27-2008, 12:49 PM
I think JADE is more about not having an obligation to complete a major task (one of possibly many).

That's what I meant.

Personally I wouldn't want to play the same character forever.

Tannis
03-27-2008, 02:07 PM
But it brings other problems. For example, you dont want to allow the player to ride his horse into his neighbors house. You would need a way to restrict the player from moving there while mounted. Also, horses and dungeons. Horses and stairs (yay). Horses in towers.

If you dont limit the use of horses, players will take them everywhere. Free speed boost.

Oh and one more thing: you would need a second version for every skill, otherwise Horse + Archer is either not possible (not a good idea) or uberweapon (equally bad).

Not that I dont like the idea, but... hmm...



The issue you raise is readily solved. Make horses only rideable when out and about in the wilderness. In turn, mounted combat would only ever take place in encounters in fields and what not, which makes sense. When you enter a dungeon or tower, you would not be mounted (since what good is a horse when dealing with caves and stairs), and the horse would be tethered outside, ready to ride when you live the dungeon. Simple solution.

Tannis
03-27-2008, 05:07 PM
i just had a great idea. In ADOM, lifespan really mattered for one reason: Ghosts. Beyond that, it was never factor. Since JADE will be open ended, it will become more of an issue. Here's one way to flesh out the role of aging in JADE: aging and its relationship with necromantic magic.

There could be certain very high level necromantic spells that slightly age the caster, since it costs some of your life force. A high level necro might age less, but a novice could easily age himself to death by accident. Similarly, there could be evil artificats kind of like moonsickle that deal great damage but age the wielder.

Worst Player... ever
03-27-2008, 05:52 PM
i just had a great idea. In ADOM, lifespan really mattered for one reason: Ghosts. Beyond that, it was never factor. Since JADE will be open ended, it will become more of an issue. Here's one way to flesh out the role of aging in JADE: aging and its relationship with necromantic magic.

There could be certain very high level necromantic spells that slightly age the caster, since it costs some of your life force. A high level necro might age less, but a novice could easily age himself to death by accident. Similarly, there could be evil artificats kind of like moonsickle that deal great damage but age the wielder.

That sounds like a good concept, but it would actually increase the advantage of long-lived races, not level things out. As a necromancer, it would be a huge advantage to play an elf... likewise an elf could wield moon sickle with impunity.

I know we don't want all the races to be the same, but I don't want to see the landscape be completely dominated by elves. I'd like to see short lived races get advantages that compensate them for the big potential disadvantages that come from lifespan.

theotherhiveking
03-27-2008, 08:53 PM
i just had a great idea. In ADOM, lifespan really mattered for one reason: Ghosts. Beyond that, it was never factor. Since JADE will be open ended, it will become more of an issue. Here's one way to flesh out the role of aging in JADE: aging and its relationship with necromantic magic.

There could be certain very high level necromantic spells that slightly age the caster, since it costs some of your life force. A high level necro might age less, but a novice could easily age himself to death by accident. Similarly, there could be evil artificats kind of like moonsickle that deal great damage but age the wielder.


High level necros should eventually live and live longer as they get closer to the powers of death, i mean that a human necromancer of around lvl 30 should live as long as a dark elf, and a extremely skilled lvl 50 one would eventually morph himself into a lich.


Since jade will feature lots of features.. why not become at lich yourself? liches dont grow on the trees they had a life story.. now they have dead one :p

Worst Player... ever
03-27-2008, 09:42 PM
High level necros should eventually live and live longer as they get closer to the powers of death, i mean that a human necromancer of around lvl 30 should live as long as a dark elf, and a extremely skilled lvl 50 one would eventually morph himself into a lich.


Since jade will feature lots of features.. why not become at lich yourself? liches dont grow on the trees they had a life story.. now they have dead one :p

That's a great idea, and perfectly consistent with what necros are all about IMO. Necromancers are already my favorite class, and with that I would enjoy them even more. :)

F50
04-03-2008, 04:25 AM
This thread is about how long a character can live *without* unnatural aging, right?

The easiest way to solve this is to have weak potions of longevity be rather common (add 3 years to lifespan when blessed kind of thing). This way elves retain their immunity to ghosts, trolls retain their fear of ghosts, and nobody runs out the clock.

Not all races have to be equal. I eventually ran out of luck in ADOM with all other races except Dwarves (my favorite race), high elves, and gnomes (only when elementalist).