Crit City - Mimic Difficulty

[Tyrnyx]

So I just lost a Level 20 Trollish Paladin on the Mana Temple to a Master Mimic. It's not all that surprising. They are often the death of late game characters. Here's the thing: this character had intrinsic paralyzation resistance . I lost the character in one turn, from 300 health! The post-mortem read out had like pretty much only crits and not a single miss. DV ~40, PV about the same.

Perhaps it's because it was super experienced, being on the Mana Temple and all, and maybe it's just the RNG being an ass. Seriously, though, I was surprised.

I'm not sure if anything needs to be changed but I think that maybe the difficulty of mimics needs to be tuned down a bit? The ability to do the above plus paralyze seems excessive.

[Stingray1]

Master Mimics are pretty lethal. Was your DV ~40 before getting paralyzed or while paralyzed? Myself always try to take them down at range, if un-avoidable remain in coward tactic and use magic. If no magic is available use darkness, at least then it won't hit you every turn. I'm so scared of them I even cast darkness before I use combat magic or wands.

[Tyrnyx]

I'm pretty sure that I wasn't paralyzed at all. I loaded the .flg (and have since deleted it) and it wasn't listed on my status bar. Maybe I was for a second? And I died after it wore off? I had the intrinsic resistance, can they go through that?

I'm not sure how many attacks they get in one turn but it seemed like a lot. Too many but then again things get lots of attacks when they are that far down.

[Stingray1]

Resistances only make you resistant, not immune.

Were you perhaps fighting the Archmage already and had the Frozen Blood corruption? He does have a cold attack that can slow a character down with that corruption.

[Tyrnyx]

No. I hadn't even dug into it yet. My speed was 120s I believe. Everything was normal, hunky dory, I was a little fatalistic about my prospects against Nurgy (as I didn't have confusion resistance) but I was at least planning on getting there... I think it was just that the monster managed to get so many crits in. Does anyone know what the crit mechanic is? Or how many attacks a master mimic is supposed to get (I killed one earlier in the Casino, no problem). Or how much damage they do or whether they by-pass PV?

I know that resistance doesn't mean immunity but you'd think it wouldn't do 300 damage without giving me a chance to run given that I did have the resistance.

[Stingray1]

2441

Okay lets look at possibilities: Is it possible that it was damaged and thus fighting to the death in a blind rage? Was your character doomed?

[SirTheta]

Master mimics hit really hard and it probably didn't help that it was extremely leveled. We really need a message log to be able to tell you anything.


Resistances only make you resistant, not immune.Is this true for non-elemental stuff? Like, -Para is immune to paralyzation...not resistant. I'm not sure what you mean here?

[Stingray1]

Master mimics hit really hard and it probably didn't help that it was extremely leveled. We really need a message log to be able to tell you anything.

Is this true for non-elemental stuff? Like, -Para is immune to paralyzation...not resistant. I'm not sure what you mean here?

A character with -conf can get confused, a character with -death can get damaged by deathrays, a character with -para, I'm not recalling whether I've been paralyzed while having this intrinsic. I'll see if I can do a test next time I get the opportunity. You may have a good point though.

Why would it be called resistance and not immunity?

[_Ln_]

I have never been paralyzed with resistance despite testing somethings, so I think it's practical immunity.

[Tyrnyx]

Okay lets look at possibilities: Is it possible that it was damaged and thus fighting to the death in a blind rage? Was your character doomed?

Not doomed. But no +Luck because I punched a karmic and forgot to re-up and wasn't wearing the ahnk. Could be blind-rage... I think I hit it?

Didn't delete the .flg but don't have the words that accompanied the death. As you can see it does not say paralyzed.




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Screenshot
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#.#
...
#+#######.#####
#........./...#
######### ###.........###.########
#.......# #./...*...../...[..m.\!%
#.<.....###.#..||.....#####.@m.!%=
#......./...#.........# #....%.(
####################### #######


B St:32 Le: 3 Wi:12 Dx:11 To:31 Ch: 8 Ap: 4 Ma:11 Pe:17 N=
DV/PV: 44/32 H: -16(300) P: 53(53) Exp: 20/3113284 MT Sp: 118
Blessed Satiated
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventory
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total weight: 5242 stones Carrying capacity: 8675 stones

Head : uncursed mithril cap (+1, +1) [+0, +2] [40s]
Neck : blessed necklace of rapid healing [2s]
Body : uncursed red dragon scale mail (-1, -4) [-1, +13] [220s]
Girdle : blessed girdle of carrying [+0, +0] [15s]
Cloak : -
Right Hand : blessed holy avenger "Justifier" (+4, 3d5+10) [+6, +2][60s]
Left Hand : uncursed large eternium shield (+1) [+11, +5] [54s]
Right Ring : uncursed ring of regeneration [1s]
Left Ring : blessed ring of ice [1s]
Bracers : -
Gauntlets : uncursed thick gauntlets (-1, -2) [+0, +1] [15s]
Boots : blessed mithril boots [-1, +2] [96s]
Missile Weapon: -
Missiles : bundle of 2 uncursed arrows (+0, 1d6+3) [4s]
Tool : uncursed Chaos Orb of Elemental Earth {To+10} [100s]



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Weapon Skills
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Melee weapon Lvl Hit Dam DV Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- --------------
Swords 12 +12 +8 +4 Mastery 2789


Shields Lvl DV Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- ------------- --------------
Shields 9 +18 excellent 949


Damage caused with your melee weapons:
--------------------------------------
Right hand: +58 bonus to hit, 3d5+33 damage


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Skills
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Athletics ................100 (superb) [+2d4]
Bridge building .......... 10 (poor) [+3d5] (mr)
Climbing ................. 58 (good) [+3d3]
Concentration ............ 98 (superb) [+2d4]
Dodge .................... 70 (good) [+1d5]
First aid ................ 32 (fair) [+3d5]
Food preservation ........ 67 (good) [+1d5]
Gemology ................. 20 (mediocre) [+2d4]
Haggling ................. 27 (mediocre) [+3d4]
Healing ..................100 (superb) [+1d5]
Listening ................ 76 (great) [+3d4]
Literacy ................. 66 (good) [+1d5]
Mining ................... 44 (fair) [+1d5]
Stealth .................. 69 (good) [+1d3]
Swimming ................. 55 (good) [+2d4]
Two weapon combat ........ 7 (poor) [+4d5]




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Effects of Corruption
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Your eye(s) turned black (Pe: +3).
Your flesh continually spouts disease-ridden maggots (To: -6, Ch: -2, Ap:
-4, DV: +4).
You sport gills (Ap: -3, water breathing).
Poison drips from your hands.



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His achievements during his adventures:
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B, the trollish paladin, was killed by a master mimic.
He scored 438173 points and advanced to level 20.
He survived for 0 years, 49 days, 12 hours, 8 minutes and 35 seconds (39663
turns).
9 companions were killed during his adventures.
B visited 94 places.
His strength score was modified by +1 during his career.
His willpower score was modified by +3 during his career.
His dexterity score was modified by +1 during his career.
His toughness score was modified by +2 during his career.
His charisma score was modified by +2 during his career.
His appearance score was modified by +2 during his career.
His mana score was modified by +1 during his career.
His perception score was modified by +3 during his career.
He was the champion of the arena.
He made a little water dragon very happy.
He ended his adventuring life in the temple of elemental Mana.
3613 monsters perished under his attacks.
The following 21 artifacts were generated during his adventure:
the si
the scythe of corruption "Moon Sickle"
the potion of literacy
the golden gladius "Death's Sting"
the holy avenger "Justifier"
the Chaos Orb of Elemental Water
the Chaos Orb of Elemental Air
the Chaos Orb of Elemental Fire
the Chaos Orb of Elemental Earth
the lead-filled mace "Big Punch"
the scorched spear
the gauntlets of eternal peace "Shezestriakis"
the rune-covered trident
the elemental gauntlets
the ring of the High Kings
the crown of science
the ancient mummy wrapping
the ankh
the black torc
the rune-covered sling "Whirlwind"
the ring of immunity
He possessed the following intrinsics:
He was fire resistant.
He was poison resistant.
He was able to control teleportation.
He was stun resistant.
He was paralyzation resistant.
He was resistant to death rays.
He was able to see invisible things.
He was immune to shock attacks.
He was immune to fire attacks (gained through an item).
He was able to breathe water.
He had the following talents: Alert, Long Stride, Miser, Quick, Shield
Specialist, Treasure Hunter, Very Quick.
He had a final speed score of 118 (final base speed: 123).
He was a paragon of his religion.
He asked for 6 divine interventions.
He was a holy champion of Balance.
He was tainted by Chaos.

[divij]

i fucking HATE mimics.:mad:
i hate and fear them so much i always walk with aofa over ankh or e1 aols
also i always walk with invis
i still remeber this 1 roll i had at d50
there was a deserted shop i found that out
i had aofa..equipped it and had that arrow or quarrel single shot returns zillion damage i got from using !ouselessness from d49
i killed all but a few mimics using it...it always returned
so now i was 1v1 with a hivemind on d50 and it was standing 1 square from me
i had full hp
beserked shot the arrow on him he is severely injured decides to fight to death in blind rage.
moves 1 sqaure and 1st hit im paralysed.hit hit hit...bam bam bam down to 100 odd hp
i wake up I WAKE UP bam bam ... 50 hp
lesson learnt...insta tp somewhere else use potion to full heal
then murder it with burning acid (acid spit corruption) while on coward mode from afar
hence aofa best non artifact item in the game except wishes! is it not i cant think of a better item.

on a different note...just lost my 2nd characted to yuglash the bitch ass summoner....summoned quickling queens on my ass
got to above my items and was going to pickup me stuff but i thot ill pray...I AM SUPPORTED ...asshole diety\
the other died to ancient white dragons cause i was drakeling and forgot i was drakeling so 20s (this was my mistale for sure)
srry for the rant!!

[Carter]

i think there was a suggestion of more +para resistance items. makes sense.

[JellySlayer]

A character with -conf can get confused, a character with -death can get damaged by deathrays, a character with -para, I'm not recalling whether I've been paralyzed while having this intrinsic. I'll see if I can do a test next time I get the opportunity. You may have a good point though.

Why would it be called resistance and not immunity?

You almost certainly cannot get paralysed with -Para installed. Or, at least, I've never had it happen with PCs who are double or triple doomed + cursed. Death rays can still damage you with resistance, but you can't be killed outright. I don't believe you can be stunned with -Stun (except maybe at Casino) or put to sleep with -Sleep either. Seems to depend on the resistance.

[SirTheta]

Yeah, I guess I should have been more clear about "non-elemental" since you're right that many of the -XXXX != immunity - I was thinking along the lines of JS w/ -Para and -Stun which are functionally - if not actually - immunity (I mean, I guess this is the black swan problem to some extent here).

[Blasphemous]

With -petr you won't ever get petrified either. Same for -para, as long as you have a single source of paralyzation resistance, you will never be paralyzed.

[divij]

i DID get paralyzed with aofa on so this claim is demonstrably true!
however i do agree that resistance almost = immunity since i survived a raging hivemind on lvl 50 on berserk and i sometimes die to ordinary mimics w/o resistance.

[grobblewobble]

Off-topic, but this is another dead that would not have happened with the Hardy, Very Hardy and Extremely Hardy talents. And people keep saying they're bad.

[divij]

im not asking this facetiously but how? i dnt think his hp was the issue for death here...and i agree these talents suck unless u know something i dnt!

[grobblewobble]

Well, from the game screen that Tyrnyx posted:



B St:32 Le: 3 Wi:12 Dx:11 To:31 Ch: 8 Ap: 4 Ma:11 Pe:17 N=
DV/PV: 44/32 H: -16(300) P: 53(53) Exp: 20/3113284 MT Sp: 118
Blessed Satiated


He died with -16 health, no paralysis. The three HP talents add a total of 18. With that many extra HP he would have survived the round with 2 HP left.

[SirTheta]

Those talents also get a lot better in p22 - the bug for Mist Elves is finally fixed and 18 HP is huge for them :D

[_Ln_]

Well, from the game screen that Tyrnyx posted:



B St:32 Le: 3 Wi:12 Dx:11 To:31 Ch: 8 Ap: 4 Ma:11 Pe:17 N=
DV/PV: 44/32 H: -16(300) P: 53(53) Exp: 20/3113284 MT Sp: 118
Blessed Satiated


He died with -16 health, no paralysis. The three HP talents add a total of 18. With that many extra HP he would have survived the round with 2 HP left.

The combat round ends as soon you are dead (at least in melee), so who's to say that that was the last of mimic's attack? :D

On a related though, Andor now deals ~100 penetrating paralyzing damage and has around 5-6 attacks or so (spectating asdf on the server). Imagine an unspoiled player taking on the guy without -Para. If I ever get to finishing my lvl 50 priest (last play session ended with killing Ssrraxx; a lot of things left to do - Ice Queen domain, Scintillating Cave and Filk as well as whipping myself to neutrality - possibly the hardest part), I will be able to document my adventures on Chaos Plane in more detail and may drop a call here for spectating (the savefile is on the server).


Those talents also get a lot better in p22 - the bug for Mist Elves is finally fixed and 18 HP is huge for them :D

Good luck getting to 20 Toughness with nerf to -stat- potions and PoGAs (herb overtraining aside which is hopefully finally fixed in p22). ;)

[JellySlayer]

Andor without paralysis resistance was pretty much death even without penetrating attacks. It just took a really, really long time (in practice, he normally would end up just stat draining/corrupting you to death).

[divij]

Well, from the game screen that Tyrnyx posted:



B St:32 Le: 3 Wi:12 Dx:11 To:31 Ch: 8 Ap: 4 Ma:11 Pe:17 N=
DV/PV: 44/32 H: -16(300) P: 53(53) Exp: 20/3113284 MT Sp: 118
Blessed Satiated


He died with -16 health, no paralysis. The three HP talents add a total of 18. With that many extra HP he would have survived the round with 2 HP left.

that wud just mean he survives that round...next round he will die cause para hasnt e1 gone yet so atleast 2 more attacks then mayb para breaks and 2 more attacks...so a minimum of 4 more attacks left on the mimic.
yes these skills will b marginally useful on elves i think , tho if u play elves u shud play it as a glass cannon imho

[JellySlayer]

He's not paralyzed...

[Tyrnyx]

Clearly, we all greatly fear mimics. They are definitely up there on the list of killers. I understand that -para is important and I've heard that more -para items are going to be implemented... still, I think the question still stands: should mimics be tweaked weaker?

[JellySlayer]

I don't think so. Mimics are somewhat dangerous, but not overwhelmingly so, and they're pretty rare. Yes, on a bad run a master mimic or hivemind can crit for 300+, but so can a werewolf king, ancient dragon, diamond golem, etc.

[SirTheta]

They should not.