Poll: preferred solution to archery woes?

[Al-Khwarizmi]

It seems that every ADOM player agrees that the current UI for archery leaves to be desired, but there is not so much agreement about what is the worse problem (investment of game time in reloading? Spending of real-life time reloading? Inventory clutter?) and what is the preferred solution.

Note that you can choose multiple options... if you select the quiver, please also select at least one other option as TB has said he will not implement the quiver due to being too much work (but I include it for informative reasons).

[SirTheta]

am I missing something? don't see no poll.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Sorry. I now actually created the poll :)

[SirTheta]

well, I think "Implement a way to mark or bundle a set of different missiles for auto-reloading" is by far the most obvious and best solution (though it's basically a quiver). I'd be curious to hear what other people think, though.

[Stingray1]

Agreed with SirTheta. Sorry.

[asdf]

well, I think "Implement a way to mark or bundle a set of different missiles for auto-reloading" is by far the most obvious and best solution (though it's basically a quiver). I'd be curious to hear what other people think, though.
It does not solve inventory clogging issue. It still requires manually check every stray single missile in clogged inventory. So i've voted for removing arrow variety. Large stacks of arrows is the only way to minimize unnecessary actions during active archer gameplay.

[Qui]

Large stacks of arrows is the only way to minimize unnecessary actions during active archer gameplay.

This. Also, it is fast and easy to implement as I understand, and therefore unlikely to introduce new bugs.

[grobblewobble]

I agree with asdf here. Bundling is great in theory, but it's a unintuitive design, confusing for new players. And worse, you'd still be doing micromanagement. Every time you find a new arrow you'd have to mark it as part of your bundle.

I'm starting to think that removing missile variety is best. Unfortunately that doesn't help when you're throwing daggers, so I'm not really decided yet.

[Booster]

I'm torn on this one, but feel the best choice is to limit the variety in missile weapons. As grobblewobble mentioned though, it doesn't factor in throwing daggers (or spears)..

[Al-Khwarizmi]

well, I think "Implement a way to mark or bundle a set of different missiles for auto-reloading" is by far the most obvious and best solution (though it's basically a quiver). I'd be curious to hear what other people think, though.
It provides very similar functionality but TB said the quiver was too much work to implement (understandably, due to ADOM not having container items) while the marking/bundling was feasible.

This is also the best solution IMHO.

[Blasphemous]

I think partial reduction of variety is enough.
Also, voluntarily "blunt" some arrows is a good idea though perhaps it should be phrased differently because no archer would ever willingly worsen their arrows just to be able to put them in the same quiver.
I don't like the marking mechanism, it still consumes lots of time and leaves a messy inventory. I'd rather have complete removal of variation instead of having to mark arrows.

[YourMum]

Remove some or all of the variety with missiles.

1-easy to code (and therefore more likely to happen)
2-subsequently should be a bug-free change
3-no micromanagement. You might save yourself time reloading and sorting through which missiles you want to use with some sort of bundling system but you're still wasting time bundling in the first instance.

Thrown weapons loose out here but I think it's less of a deal. You can milk orcs and traps for large piles of identical stacking weapons easily enough. Being that they weigh a hell of a lot more you're unlikely to get our to carry such huge stacks as you might do with arrows or quarrels.

[Yinghei]

I would like to see the missile variety removed except for suffix/material.

It would also be really cool if there could be an autopickup option just for missiles which have already been thrown/fired.

[szopin]

Probably simplest to implement would be autoreload option, that would just get rid of the 'Reload with x?' prompt. All micromanagement required would be dropping all special ammo and picking it up so it lands in the end of autoreload queue. No change to mechanic (archers are OP, removing turn to load will just boostem more), just another config option

[Moeba]

Actually I'm fine with the way archery works. But less variety wouldn't be a bad thing, so that's what I voted for.

[Dlightfull]

archers are OP, removing turn to load will just boostem more

Removing turn to load won't boost an archer, since any sane archer will be sure not to need that turn during a fight, or load while being safe, i.e. few steps away.

It would, though, remove the unnecessary tedium of micromanagement of dealing with missiles.

[Rogue]

One thing I'd like to see implemented is when manually selecting bolts or arrows for reloading the missile slot to only showing items appropriate to the bow or crossbow, which ever is being used. That way you don't have to scan through a list of arrows to find a quarrel. This is already the case when using slings.

[asdf]

One thing I'd like to see implemented is when manually selecting bolts or arrows for reloading the missile slot to only showing items appropriate to the bow or crossbow, which ever is being used. That way you don't have to scan through a list of arrows to find a quarrel. This is already the case when using slings.
Please, post an RFE about that. This is excellent suggestion and would help archers a lot too.

[Stingray1]

Please, post an RFE about that. This is excellent suggestion and would help archers a lot too.

I have posted the RFE a while back. I don't feel like looking for it.

A tip to Rogue: You can hit the enter key and type arro or quarr or drag or undea or Aim if you be so lucky. e: Post-p20 that is.

[daft inquisitor]

I agree that the Quiver would be the best option, but I really do think it would be incredibly cumbersome to code it into the game.

However, I'm a huge fan of the "remove varieties" option. It was actually the first idea that popped into my head when I read the thread title.

[Maul]

I agree that the Quiver would be the best option, but I really do think it would be incredibly cumbersome to code it into the game.

Not really. By itself, it would be a trivial programming challenge. Even in C, I believe a simple linked list would work well.

(I voted "quiver" only, but removing the non-affix variety would work as well. I don't ever remember actually thinking "Hmm, should I use my (+2, 1d6) or my (+0, 1d6+3) arrow to kill this monster?" Only, maybe, using the higher damage arrows at a lower weapon skill to compensate for being unskilled.)

[Harwin]

Not really. By itself, it would be a trivial programming challenge. Even in C, I believe a simple linked list would work well.

There's also all the UI for it as well. If this is a container, it's the first such container in the game. (The game doesn't seem to support bags or anything like that). If you're just saying "mark this for reload" then is that any different than the "bundle" solution?

[SirTheta]

Not really. By itself, it would be a trivial programming challenge. Even in C, I believe a simple linked list would work well.TB has specifically stated it would require too much work to implement - nothing in ADOM is a "trivial" task.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Implementing something in isolation is one thing. Adding it to a large system and making it interact correctly with the other parts of the system is a very different thing. For example, implementing the quiver would imply things like implementing a filter so that only arrows/quarrels can be put inside it, making item destruction effects traverse the quiver to destroy what's inside, adding keys in the inventory UI to add and remove arrows to/from the quiver, making it so that if you pick up an arrow which came from the quiver it automatically goes back there, modifying inventory weight calculations so that the total weight sums the weights of arrows in the quiver correctly... and many other things that we don't even know.

While I would love to have a quiver, as a developer I totally understand that it is very difficult. Marking/bundling would be fine by me and partial removing of variable would be nice too.

[Blasphemous]

The only thing among regular missiles that I consider when selecting a stack to use is the amount of arrows/quarrels inside.
To-hit and to-damage variation is completely irrelevant as the benefits of shooting continuously without having to go through prompts etc. far outweigh any potential benefits of +1/2/3 extra damage or chance to hit.
I think that perhaps TB originally thought that these varying combat modifiers would improve the game, diversify the gameplay.
What they in fact achieve is only another tedium. I believe that middle ground can be achieved here by reducing variable missiles' attributes to 3 kinds (as somebody mentioned already before me) - no modifier (base 0, 1d6) or +1 to-hit & to-damage or -1 to-hit & to-damage.
This way you avoid having to perform extra programming work with the mixed quiver, while at the same time you retain some of the original idea.
Having 3 possible stacks of regular missiles of a given type would be a huge step forward for archers (so basically every character as I can't seem to think of any chars that don't use ranged weapons, even duelists).

[Dlightfull]

Having 3 possible stacks of regular missiles of a given type would be a huge step forward for archers (so basically every character as I can't seem to think of any chars that don't use ranged weapons, even duelists).

9 stacks. You forget B/U/C status.

[shockeroo]

I'm all for nuking the hit and damage modifiers completely. I'm either using the largest stack, or I'm using slaying ammo. I think the only type of prefixed ammo I ever cared about is penetrating, and maybe I used hunting once; all the others just aren't worth the hassle with stacks.

[Maul]

TB has specifically stated it would require too much work to implement - nothing in ADOM is a "trivial" task.

Interesting. Well, I don't know the code and I'm only just a student programmer anyways, so I'm sure TB and some of the folks here know this better than I do. I just thought that if the rest of the code is designed well, adding quiver mechanics wouldn't be that hard. I mean, one could look at it like a second inventory which is handled slightly differently.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I'm all for nuking the hit and damage modifiers completely. I'm either using the largest stack, or I'm using slaying ammo. I think the only type of prefixed ammo I ever cared about is penetrating, and maybe I used hunting once; all the others just aren't worth the hassle with stacks.
Of darkness, of thunder, unerring, winged are also fun. I think large stacks of standard arrows + small stacks of occassional-use special arrows would be fine.

[Harwin]

9 stacks. You forget B/U/C status.

But those at least you can currently adjust. A single blessed scroll of uncursing removes a bunch of those. That means 6 stacks (assuming you don't want to go blessing everything), and uncursed will be the majority.

[YourMum]

The only thing among regular missiles that I consider when selecting a stack to use is the amount of arrows/quarrels inside.

Yup totally. I'll pick up any bundle that's about 5 or more in case it's got a nice suffix but i ditch any standard ammo that doesn't stack with my larger bundles.

[Qui]

Interesting. Well, I don't know the code and I'm only just a student programmer anyways, so I'm sure TB and some of the folks here know this better than I do. I just thought that if the rest of the code is designed well, adding quiver mechanics wouldn't be that hard. I mean, one could look at it like a second inventory which is handled slightly differently.

First of all, it most likely isn't designed well, TB admitted as much. He was also just a student when he began ADoM. And secondly, I'd guess it more about time-consuming than hard. Handling and testing all the special cases... And then fixing all the fun new bugs... And all for nothing, because imho a quiver wouldn't solve the problem at all. Unless there was even more functionality added, like automatically adding picked up arrows to the proper quiver, etc, etc. While, unless I'm very mistaken, reducing variance is a simple matter of changing item generation rule for missiles.

[heavensblade23]

Considerably narrowing missile variety seems to be the best and easiest solution.

[Dlightfull]

I never used fletchery (never got an archer to lvl 18 yet :( ) but from what i know about it, it seems to me that drastically lowering the diversity of missiles will have the side effect of increasing the chances of making preffixed and affixed missiles.

Not that i would complain to have a big stack of penetrating arrows of slaiyng, but this would make archers even more overpowered, especially seeing how fletchery sets drop more often now.

[Harwin]

I never used fletchery (never got an archer to lvl 18 yet :( ) but from what i know about it, it seems to me that drastically lowering the diversity of missiles will have the side effect of increasing the chances of making preffixed and affixed missiles.

Not that i would complain to have a big stack of penetrating arrows of slaiyng, but this would make archers even more overpowered, especially seeing how fletchery sets drop more often now.

That seems like it would depend on the roll order. If the game first checks for prefix/affix, and then checks for +/- hit/damage(or vice versa, as long as they are 2 independent checks), then reducing the variety in hit/damage modifiers should have no effect on the frequency of slaying missiles.

A recent version already reduced the possible modifiers for slaying ammo (I think), and I don't get the impression it's changed (downward) the frequency of slaying ammo(in that I haven't seen people complain, and at least one person won with an archer) so this seems likely to not be the case.

[Blasphemous]

I agree there is no noticeable increase of slaying missiles dropping as loot. I have yet to play an archer extensively in pre22 and use fletchery but I doubt there will be any other conclusion.

[Deathwind]

Maybe there is another way to fix this: where do most of those single arrows come from? I've found they tend to be shot at me, perhaps it'd be enough to just have monsters shoot only normal missiles?

[Moeba]

Maybe there is another way to fix this: where do most of those single arrows come from? I've found they tend to be shot at me, perhaps it'd be enough to just have monsters shoot only normal missiles?

Indeed, that would already solve a lot. But changing this would be a pity, it's so nice when monsters also shoot advanced ammo occasionally.
Still, it's a good observation.

[aerol]

I wouldn't be opposed to the character having the possibility of blunting arrows provided they have the fletchery skill.

[Laukku]

Maybe there is another way to fix this: where do most of those single arrows come from? I've found they tend to be shot at me, perhaps it'd be enough to just have monsters shoot only normal missiles?

This. Make it so that any time a single missile is generated its stats are (+0, 1d6), and allow variation only when a whole stack is generated.

[iffi]

This. Make it so that any time a single missile is generated its stats are (+0, 1d6)
This would definitely be a change for the better, but only a partial fix.

Consider for example the situation after you have only one or three left from the original stack of +2 missiles. Do you continue to use them or drop them and switch to the large stack of +0 missiles in favor of smoother gameplay? I have been doing the latter for years, even with the less important slayers. It just is strangely annoying to have to halt a fight to choose another (small) stack of missiles.

ADOM is an old-school game and we all want it to stay like that. But, having played some old favorites after 10-15 years I was astonished to see how annoying and frustrating they could be to play compared to the (often too) streamlined modern games.

[YourMum]

This. Make it so that any time a single missile is generated its stats are (+0, 1d6), and allow variation only when a whole stack is generated.

big stacks don't stay big for long if they get used. soon enough they'll end up as little bundles of 4 or 5 and you're back to the same problem

[Masque]

My two cents. Quiver is best choise. Nobody thinks that removing gloves before ring change is annoying? Same here. And quivers can have some prefixes\suffixes too (or\and be different by size, or\and be extendable by talents). Large stacks, that generated can be in quivers all the time - nothing wrong with it. If the game will ask me for adding picked arrow(s) to quiver (ONLY if quiver is equipped) like now if missile slot is empty to equip (with variable in .cfg) - it will be good - micromanagement will go from the heat of a fight to a relatively calm treasure harvesting.

P.S. Some purses for thrown rocks are needed for a little ones too :) Bandoliers for daggers (and another ones for potions(!). Let's say three potions per item) maybe also - it's too annoying to manualy equip dagger every time, since they are not counted as missile weapon for autoreload.

P.P.S. Sorry, if I'm repeating someone's words.

[asdf]

Nobody thinks that removing gloves before ring change is annoying?
Actually everyone (16-0) thinks that this is annoying.
http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2983

[Masque]

Oops. So I'm the chosen one and must go for the water chip. See ya :)

IMHO, this type of micromanagement is good. It isn't routine (you aren't forced to change rings every turn, like reloading arrows one by one), but keeps some atmospheric feeling. IMAHO, this can be even more complicated - you can't unequip chainmail without unequipping the same gauntlets or helm.

[aerol]

Going through the multiple bug reports and rfes regarding this, it seems the two solutions that TB would actually be inclined to implement would be either "totally remove the variety of to-hit and to-damage modifiers" or "implement a way to mark or bundle a set of different missiles for auto-reloading ". Given this, it wouldn't be a bad idea to do a repeat of the poll with just those two options. I'm partial to the latter, as it would also take care of the problem of unstacking poisoned missiles.

[blunk]

I've got no issues with reloading other than sorted ammo would be nice, even better a choice to sort alphabetically or by stacksize.