ASCII mode sucksssssssss!!

[divij]

sorry but im gonna be ranting for a bit here...just finished eating a gorgon corpse and dying on a very promising hero...but i really believe that we can go beyond ascii mode. all we need to do is the following (and i dnt know how this will be done but it needs to b done)

1) make monster and item detection work decently on normal mode
2) make these fucking missiles move faster on normal mode
3) make toef faster on normal mode
4) make item dropping and picking faster on normal mode
5)make karmic beings change colour on a single turn

i think if these few things are done i think i can loose 50% less heroes cause i play marathon sessions and that leads to loss of concentration and hence i need to go ascii else my brain starts to melt
but then i end up doing stupid things (i know its my fault but you get a good run going and u have air under your hair and u feel u can fly!!)

and other suggestions on improving normal mode? i recommend str8up BANNING ascii mode :mad: so every1 play normal mode

[Dogbreath]

O_o (tenchar)

[Maul]

I believe we have our first troll in the ADOM forums! (At least the first one I've seen...)

[divij]

y u think im trolling? ofc i meant the banning thingy in jest but other than that all the points are true.. no?

[Drifted]

It's what one prefers. I for one couldn't stand NotEye mode and went straight back to ASCII. Probably something to do with getting confused with positioning. Which is a shame cause I would really love to see all that nice graphics and music. That is why I wish in the future it would be possible to play play in ASCII mode while having NotEye window open to see your game in graphics. Having played about ~15 years on-off ASCII is just so much simpler to read and understand than graphics.

[Maul]

y u think im trolling? ofc i meant the banning thingy in jest but other than that all the points are true.. no?

As far as I'm concerned, ASCII mode is the heart and soul of ADOM. NotEye is just an added gimmick for those who either can't stand ASCII for some reason or are new enough so they don't associate ASCII mode with ADOM by default. Personally, I think NotEye makes ADOM look too much like a bog-standard RPG Maker product, ruining its charm, and is also difficult to orientate within.

Also, no, your comment about banning ASCII mode didn't look like it was made in jest. It looked more like you were either pissed off so much that you added it on impulse, or wanted to antagonize those who prefer ASCII. In general, if you want to rant about something, it helps to do so when the initial rush of anger has already subsided.

[Moeba]

y u think im trolling? ofc i meant the banning thingy in jest but other than that all the points are true.. no?

The thread name does kinda suggest that you want to start a flame war ;)

[GordonOverkill]

ASCII rooooooooooooxx :-)

[divij]

omg so many supporters of ascii mode.....see the point is that if u want adom to improve then focus on complexity rather than tradition..it is 1 thing to say that u lv ascii another to say its better...it CERTAINLY ISNT better. yes a part of it is non-association of characters and units but part of it is because it feels old fashioned like im playing in the 20th century...this thread reminds me of the whole nationalism vs patriotism debate and u ppl are just being nationalists....it is true because it true because i said it is true blah blah blah

[Moeba]

I wouldn't disagree. It's just that it's like telling a lesbian to love guys only.

(No offense meant to whoever likes ASCII, just trying to explain)

[Ravenmore]

Oh dear *puts on flameproof suit*

1) Could you please be more specific, what kind of detection and what's wrong with it now?
2-3) Are you playing the public pre-relase? It is quite slow. There have been some serious performance improvements in later closed pre-release versions.
4) Not sure if you have general performance in mind or the tedious UI (or lack of it ;)). Improvements are planned in both cases, however any sort of UI is planned further down the line as it wasn't part of the campaign. Though a glimpse of things to come might happen in the next pre- :)
5) Same as 2-3, in later versions karmic beings have a looped color changing animation.

ASCII will always be there, it wouldn't speed anything up if we decided to drop it. And even if it did I don't think we'd ever take that route, that's just not what the Campaign was about. Also, forcing people out of stuff they thoroughly enjoy is just plain bad manners :) It's cool that thanks to NOTEye we can boost ASCII as well, with SAGE features and little optional improvements like health bars.

[Maul]

omg so many supporters of ascii mode.....see the point is that if u want adom to improve then focus on complexity rather than tradition..it is 1 thing to say that u lv ascii another to say its better...it CERTAINLY ISNT better. yes a part of it is non-association of characters and units but part of it is because it feels old fashioned like im playing in the 20th century...this thread reminds me of the whole nationalism vs patriotism debate and u ppl are just being nationalists....it is true because it true because i said it is true blah blah blah

This is a waste of time and sanity. I'm out.

[GordonOverkill]

omg so many supporters of ascii mode.....see the point is that if u want adom to improve then focus on complexity rather than tradition..it is 1 thing to say that u lv ascii another to say its better...it CERTAINLY ISNT better. yes a part of it is non-association of characters and units but part of it is because it feels old fashioned like im playing in the 20th century...this thread reminds me of the whole nationalism vs patriotism debate and u ppl are just being nationalists....it is true because it true because i said it is true blah blah blah

Oh crap, I am not a nationalist at all, so I should better stop liking ASCII as quick as possible x-D

[divij]

Oh dear *puts on flameproof suit*

1) Could you please be more specific, what kind of detection and what's wrong with it now?
2-3) Are you playing the public pre-relase? It is quite slow. There have been some serious performance improvements in later closed pre-release versions.
4) Not sure if you have general performance in mind or the tedious UI (or lack of it ;)). Improvements are planned in both cases, however any sort of UI is planned further down the line as it wasn't part of the campaign. Though a glimpse of things to come might happen in the next pre- :)
5) Same as 2-3, in later versions karmic beings have a looped color changing animation.

ASCII will always be there, it wouldn't speed anything up if we decided to drop it. And even if it did I don't think we'd ever take that route, that's just not what the Campaign was about. Also, forcing people out of stuff they thoroughly enjoy is just plain bad manners :) It's cool that thanks to NOTEye we can boost ASCII as well, with SAGE features and little optional improvements like health bars.

how do u tell in normal mode when using wand of item detection where the item is? the map keeps shifting left right top bottom. i think its much easier in ascii mode. also toef is almost impossible in normal mode i have to do it in ascii and i have decent comp..not gr8 bt decent

[GordonOverkill]

Press F10 for a quick switch into ASCII mode and back.

[JellySlayer]

I love that tiled mode is considered "normal mode" in your mind, when tiles were only added 8 months ago and ASCII has been around for what, 15 years?

IMHO, tiled mode is nice to look at, but if you actually want to win, you should play ASCII. Simply the fact that you can see the entire map at once gives you a huge strategic advantage. Also, it's easier to play ASCII mode at work because it doesn't look like a game ;) I haven't played the most recent version on tiled, but the last one I tried was unbearably slow as well.

[Ravenmore]

Aaah, the item detection spell, good point there. Best to submit an RFE for that kind of stuff, easier to keep track of issues that need looking at.

TOEF seems to work pretty well in p22 from what I've seen. Like I said, really noticeable performance boost since the last open-for-all release. Especially when it comes to missiles, forests and animated stuff like ToEF or the Underwater Cave.
Further improvements are coming, though it's not as easy as it seems, there's much more to NOTEye than meets the eye.

Minimap shifting is also optional in latest pre-'s: you can right-click and drag it to a desired location and it will stay there, or just right click it once to make it stay in it's current location :)
Unless you're in the closed prerelease programme you're missing out on some stuff :) Not sure when the next open pre- is coming.

[anon123]

People who use ASCII mode aren't playing the game right.

[grobblewobble]

For a yell effect it's better to say that it suuuuuuuuucks. If you say it suckssssss, it sounds a bit like Gollum talking about his preciousssss.

[divij]

Oh crap, I am not a nationalist at all, so I should better stop liking ASCII as quick as possible x-D

you just concentrate on ur yiutube channel and post more videos of u playing adom cause i need my daily fix :)
since the past 2 days ive chkd ur channel and no new videos..just 2day u uploaded 1!!
also the time u wer searching for food u had a blessed stomaphilia in ur inventory zzzzzzzz

[divij]

mayb its bcause i almost exclusively play drakeling? sssssssssss

[grobblewobble]

sorry but im gonna be ranting for a bit here...just finished eating a gorgon corpse and dying on a very promising hero..
What happened here, by the way? Did you think he'd dropped an apple? I can't really think of any seriously confusing ASCII images except blink dogs dropping a fortune cookie (but that's incredibly rare). There are still some inconsistencies between the two, like the fact that bush status is shown without herbalism.

[divij]

isnt it more appropriate to say 'IMHO, tiled mode is nice to look at, but if you actually want to win QUICK, you should play ASCII', and mayb if TILE (better?) mode were made faster then ascii wud bcome obsolete? i feel that ADOM is a reallly nice game..it reminds me of the time i used to spend playing sega as a child...but sadly for some reason it is (purposely?) being made a bit tedious. for example can ne1 tell me the reason y in gremlin cave u need to always hear the sound of rushing water? i feel so frustrated with that i use beeswax to block my ears...same thing in casino with chimes and all of that nonsense. also u cant tell where the stairs are in ascii if the is/are items on it unless u use the learn command.
all of these things need to b fixed if adom wants to go commercial cause ppl who will spend their moneys will expect a smooth game...and right now in TILE mode it isnt that smooth.

[divij]

i dnt correctly correlate ascii symbols with what they stand for. i had 400 hp vanquisher shitton of str and toughness so was feeling immortal...i will tell u a secret. just 5 minutes b4 i died..i was thinking to myself that i dnt think NETHING can kill me. i forgot my worst enemy, myself

[GordonOverkill]

you just concentrate on ur yiutube channel and post more videos of u playing adom cause i need my daily fix :)
since the past 2 days ive chkd ur channel and no new videos..just 2day u uploaded 1!!
also the time u wer searching for food u had a blessed stomaphilia in ur inventory zzzzzzzz

New episode is online... Flimmel versus the Snake from Beyond :-) But like I said, try to make use of the F10 command to quickly switch between ASCII and tiles. Thus you can mainly play in graphical mode and just change to ASCII for the moments you need a tactical overview.

All in all I think that ofcourse there is no "right" or "wrong" mode. In my eyes ASCII is the more interesting one from an artistic perspective. It's just something very different from the current gaiming mainstream and it's extremely interesting to see how these little symbols create a deep atmosphere. Still I also like the tiles mode very much and maybe after my current run with Flimmel I will try to finally reach my first win in that mode.

[Deathwind]

I find it much easier to tell what things are in normal mode verses the tiles. For an example look at any giant, odds are you wouldn't be able to recognize them without the look command.


i dnt correctly correlate ascii symbols with what they stand for. i had 400 hp vanquisher shitton of str and toughness so was feeling immortal...i will tell u a secret. just 5 minutes b4 i died..i was thinking to myself that i dnt think NETHING can kill me. i forgot my worst enemy, myself

Hubris is the biggest killer in this game.

[_Ln_]

I love graphical things in ADOM and they all look awesome. However, playing in tiles per se is almost impossible for me, because constant shifting in things hurt my brains. I love how in every other game FPS and smoothness in graphics are one of the primary visual concern, when in ASCII instant 1 fps drawing is the only thing I find acceptable.

As JellySlayer already mentioned, viewing all the map at once, targeting within it without the camera rushing from one place to another and back is such a tremendous, absolutely critical thing in ADOM than no amount of graphical representation can fix (well, except from rendering all tiles the size of 1 ascii tile which will look absolutely disastrous).



for example can ne1 tell me the reason y in gremlin cave u need to always hear the sound of rushing water?


I don't mean to be rude, but seriously, it took me a while to figure out what the hell "ne1" means :D

While we are on the topic of message spam, I've configured Sage to suppress "-foo- fails to hurt you" and "-foo- misses you". And it was glorious, I highly recommend.

[JellySlayer]

isnt it more appropriate to say 'IMHO, tiled mode is nice to look at, but if you actually want to win QUICK, you should play ASCII', and mayb if TILE (better?) mode were made faster then ascii wud bcome obsolete? i feel that ADOM is a reallly nice game..it reminds me of the time i used to spend playing sega as a child...but sadly for some reason it is (purposely?) being made a bit tedious. for example can ne1 tell me the reason y in gremlin cave u need to always hear the sound of rushing water? i feel so frustrated with that i use beeswax to block my ears...same thing in casino with chimes and all of that nonsense. also u cant tell where the stairs are in ascii if the is/are items on it unless u use the learn command.
all of these things need to b fixed if adom wants to go commercial cause ppl who will spend their moneys will expect a smooth game...and right now in TILE mode it isnt that smooth.

No, ASCII would not become obsolete if tile were faster (though it would help). If it were fast enough, I'd probably play the ASCII version of tiled mode so I still have the benefit of health bars, and can switch to tiled mode for herb farming. But tiled mode would have to get a lot faster than what I've played (again, haven't played pre22 on tiled yet) for that to be a consideration... But it's really doubtful I'd ever play full tiled, unless maybe I was recording something (though, even then, I'd rather record myself playing well than record the screen looking pretty).

The biggest strategic difference is that tiled mode has very limited sight range. In ASCII mode, you can look at the entire map and immediately know where everything is and how to get there. Navigation is easier and faster. If your character has decent sight range or farsight spell, you can see monsters approaching from farther away, and shoot them with missiles from outside the tile line of sight. Generally, I feel that in ASCII, you're less likely to make mistakes, which means you're less likely to die.

Rushing water in gremlin cave is caused by water traps being activated. You can suppress message spam in one of the config files.

[SirTheta]

Well, while I disagree with your conclusion (ASCII mode makes it easier to obtain information in most cases since you don't have to remember a unique image for everything), if tile mode is unbearably slow, that *is* a problem that needs fixing. Perhaps you could file an RFE for some of these [I'd skip the ASCII sucks part though ;)]?

[BenMathiesen]

I feel your pain. The two biggest killers for me (in the late game) are:
Feeling unstoppable and trying to plow through everything without paying attention to my health (oh, that was a Doppel KING next to me? Dang.)
Greed (Executor is in that greater vault... I must have it!)

[YourMum]

If it were fast enough, I'd probably play the ASCII version of tiled mode so I still have the benefit of health bars...

Rushing water in gremlin cave is caused by water traps being activated. You can suppress message spam in one of the config files.

That's what i do, ASCII all the way but i love the healthbars.

How do you do that? i used to know a bit of code when i was younger but i barely manage message board tags now! I'd love to be able to get rid of the monster-is-trapped-in-yet-another-bloody-web messages!

[JellySlayer]

There's a file called "adom.msg" in your /adom_dat folder (Windows machine). In it you can adjust colours of different statements (so stat drains and critical hits show up red, say), and suppress others (Arena/ToEF spam) entirely. I think there's a tutorial on how to use it in the readme, or you could probably just grab a reasonably well setup one from someone (eg. the one on the server) and use that.

[Stingray1]

I've always enjoyed playing in ASCII and do love it. My last playthrough though was 100% done in tile mode and seriously it is not that bad if you setup your Mini-map size properly to orientate yourself. Also you get plenty of benefits from playing in tile mode. You can outright see both what your HP and monsters' is and whether they/you are hostile/confused/stunned/bleeding/panicking/raging, etc.

Quite fabulous.

[Grey]

I love that tiled mode is considered "normal mode" in your mind, when tiles were only added 8 months ago and ASCII has been around for what, 15 years?

I think he has a good point that the tiled mode needs more polish if it's to be considered good enough for the likes of Steam. Most new players will go straight for the tiles. At the moment most of the testing I think is done in ASCII by longer term players. We need fresh perspectives on the game.

[Yinghei]

I think he has a good point that the tiled mode needs more polish if it's to be considered good enough for the likes of Steam. Most new players will go straight for the tiles. At the moment most of the testing I think is done in ASCII by longer term players. We need fresh perspectives on the game.

As a fairly new player I prefer the ascii. While it may have been originally used out of necessity, the game has been built for that type of display for twenty years. No matter how much the tiles are streamlined, I don't think they will ever measure up to the ascii, because the entire game would have to be redesigned for that. In addition to all the strategic aspects like quickly discerning locations, I feel that a lot of the flavor is lost with the tiles. The graphics are more cute than realistic or vague, so they remove the remove the room for imagination that ascii allows. This might be ok in a game like nethack, but adom takes itself more seriously with the atmosphere and story, so the graphics can break the immersion for me.

[sylph]

As a fairly new player I prefer the ascii. While it may have been originally used out of necessity, the game has been built for that type of display for twenty years. No matter how much the tiles are streamlined, I don't think they will ever measure up to the ascii, because the entire game would have to be redesigned for that. In addition to all the strategic aspects like quickly discerning locations, I feel that a lot of the flavor is lost with the tiles. The graphics are more cute than realistic or vague, so they remove the remove the room for imagination that ascii allows. This might be ok in a game like nethack, but adom takes itself more seriously with the atmosphere and story, so the graphics can break the immersion for me.

As an ancient player I prefer the tiles! I have plenty of imagination, I just feel the graphics suit the game perfectly for me, and help represent things infinitely more effectively than graphics that are limited to a coloured ascii set, which is already coming to notice with health bars and status effects (fear, stun, bleeding, and 'not yet noticed you' are all amazingly useful to see). I like being able to spot an eternium 2-handed sword, or a fresh, strong herb bush, from a distance. I like being able to tell a goblin rockthrower by the bag of rocks he's about to give to me. Most of all, though, I like knowing what a moloch might look like, because I seriously, despite all my roleplaying experience and all my creative writing, never really managed to consistently see them as anything other than a very intimidating brown ampersand!

As soon as I encountered the graphics I knew that I'd ultimately prefer them if I gave them the chance. The transition in DoomRL taught me that graphics could be better despite my anachronistic feeling to the contrary. There's *no* way I'd go back to ascii adom now.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

IMHO, tiled mode is nice to look at, but if you actually want to win, you should play ASCII. Simply the fact that you can see the entire map at once gives you a huge strategic advantage.
Yes, that's what I feel too.

I like the tiles. I tried (and probably will keep trying) to like *playing* with tiles. But I just play worse due to not seeing the whole map (and also due to the lag, but that's much better in the latest version).

In fact in the new prereleases I have started several local games with tiles and games on the server without tiles. In ASCII mode I have won 2 or 3 times. In tiled mode I hit DT once... I haven't gotten as far as the ToEF!

Of course, a good combination is ASCII NotEye and pressing F10 when you want to see the tiles (although I haven't played this much because I like the serer).

In any case I think it's great that we have the tiles, because they will attract many new players which would just flat out refuse to play in ASCII.