Methods to Passively Train Stats

[JellySlayer]

A few of the recent threads in the RFE section have got me thinking about different methods to passively train stats. At present, it's pretty tough to train most stats outside of a few fairly well-established methods. Encumbrance training works fine for St; spellcasting works fine for Ma. For most other stats, there isn't really a great way where can train your stat without doing something that has no other function beside training the stat itself (eg. herbs, corpses, gems, Garth). I thought I'd muse about different ways that maybe you could get some stat increases just through regular play.

St: Already trained by encumbrance and mining, as well as giant corpses. This is fine, IMHO.

Le: Reading books can train Le, but unless you read an awful lot of books (or several fairly difficult ones), this isn't reliable. My proposed method would be: actually learning new stuff. When you ID some gear that you haven't seen before, you get some Le training. When you visit a dungeon level you haven't seen before, you train Le (I would count the ID only insofar as I:1 gives the bonus, but subsequent recreations do not). Encountering a new monster and adding to the monster memory would also train Le. Ironically, this might actually make scrolls of amnesia kind of useful as you could get some extra Le training by using one and then identifying your gear again.

Wi: Trained actively with herbs already. Resisting spells seems like a natural option.

Dx: Supposedly this is trained by catching boomerangs, but I've never seen an increase as a result of this. Using missiles in general might be an alternative, I suppose, but that might make it too easy. Dodging missiles and spells already train Dodge and Alertness, respectively, so maybe not ideal there. Maybe scoring a critical hit (or a critical hit with a missile) could train Dx. Active training with herbs means this doesn't need to be a particularly efficient training method, I suppose.

To: Trained actively with herbs already. For this, I'd suggest that making saving throws against poison/sickness/paralysis would probably work fine for natural training.

Ch: Recently implemented that this is trained by ordering pets around. Seems fine.

Ap: I would suggest that increases to St and To should probably train Ap.

Pe: Detecting traps and secret doors should train Pe.

Ma: Fine as it is.

[Harwin]

In general I like these.


For this, I'd suggest that making saving throws against poison/sickness/paralysis would probably work fine for natural training.

I like this but you'd want to make sure that the toughness training was low enough compared to the penalties for these so that you aren't deliberately becoming poisoned/sick/paralyzed.

What about staying well fed? That always made sense to me as training toughness(enough that I thought it did) - so being satiated/bloated would train it slowly. Satiated could be ideal - it's harder to maintain that level.
Also - staying at > 80% HP could train toughness? You're keeping yourself in good shape.

[Marek14]

In general I like these.



I like this but you'd want to make sure that the toughness training was low enough compared to the penalties for these so that you aren't deliberately becoming poisoned/sick/paralyzed.

What about staying well fed? That always made sense to me as training toughness(enough that I thought it did) - so being satiated/bloated would train it slowly. Satiated could be ideal - it's harder to maintain that level.
Also - staying at > 80% HP could train toughness? You're keeping yourself in good shape.

In that case, shouldn't staying at LOW HP train Willpower? You're bad off, but you keep yourself together and continue your quest by the force of will.

[Soirana]

Le: Reading books can train Le, but unless you read an awful lot of books (or several fairly difficult ones), this isn't reliable. My proposed method would be: actually learning new stuff. When you ID some gear that you haven't seen before, you get some Le training. When you visit a dungeon level you haven't seen before, you train Le (I would count the ID only insofar as I:1 gives the bonus, but subsequent recreations do not). Encountering a new monster and adding to the monster memory would also train Le. Ironically, this might actually make scrolls of amnesia kind of useful as you could get some extra Le training by using one and then identifying your gear again.


To: Trained actively with herbs already. For this, I'd suggest that making saving throws against poison/sickness/paralysis would probably work fine for natural training.


Learning would be just autoincrease under this proposal.

Curing/wearing out sickness already does train toughness I believe, but amount is rather miniscule. Would probably need ~50 kobolds+curaria packages [with some stomacemptia inbetween] to get an increase. I suggest just increasing that amount by multiplying at least by ten...

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I think it would be cool if getting hit to 1 HP (not too rare with +Fate) gave noticeable training to Wi.

It makes sense and it's not something people are going to exploit (or if they try, they will be obviously at risk).

[_Ln_]

I believe throwing returning stuff is already pretty good method of increasing Dx if you use this method as a sole offensive power. My experience might be clouded by Athletics, but RCT/True Aim/Thunderstroke-wielding chars build up Dx very fast.

As far as illegal info goes, Toughness and Perception are already trained as proposed. The amount of training is so laughable though, that it won't help a PC with even 1 Pe.

Aside from that, all seems pretty interesting, except Learning. I don't like the rationale behind it. The stat is supposed to represent your aptitude for discovering new things. You can't train it by discovering new things because you don't get better at discovering them, you simply memorize information.

[Harwin]

Aside from that, all seems pretty interesting, except Learning. I don't like the rationale behind it. The stat is supposed to represent your aptitude for discovering new things. You can't train it by discovering new things because you don't get better at discovering them, you simply memorize information.

Learning increases the # of skills you get per level. What if every time you gained a skill NOT through level up, or got your dice increased, it passively trained learning a bit? Also: completing the Gladius/Courage/Learning Smithing/Training with Yergius

[divij]

i would also suggest that exploring levels seeing new monsters should train P
also i agree that staying fit..i would recommend EXACTLY 100% or mayb >95% for long periods of time should train To
killing monsters with more DL that your character level should train W (over a long period of time). also surviving disease should do the same though only at lower levels of W
finally eating humanoid monsters should abuse appearance (come on can you imagine a beautiful cannibal)!
also on a COMPLETELY unrelated note...im a lvl16 deulist with lvl 9 in swords with an eternium scimitar and a backup eternium broadsword and crowned with ironfist and have just found a 'jet black battle axe' after raiding darkforge...what shud i do?
i know i dont want the rng to kill any cute dogs :) but i dont want the rng to kill me too!!!

[Marek14]

finally eating humanoid monsters should abuse appearance (come on can you imagine a beautiful cannibal)!


Yes, easily. Your point is?

[LexyBoy]

As a duelist you'll reach level 9 in axes in no time. I would switch immediately - if you desperately need the DV you can always swap back for a while.

[YourMum]

Mind craft and snapping out of confusion should train willpower.

What about walking through darkened areas for training perception?

[gut]

> Le: Reading books can train Le, but unless you read an awful lot of books (or several fairly difficult ones), this isn't reliable

I think this is based on turns spent reading, not difficulty (could be wrong).
If so, I think this is fine, as most other classes can at least learn low turn-count books.

> Dx: Supposedly this is trained by catching boomerangs, but I've never seen an increase as a result of this

I'm 99% certain this trains potential, not the stat.

> Learning would be just autoincrease under this proposal.

I am living proof this is wrong.

> Curing/wearing out sickness already does train toughness I believe

I don't think curing counts. You have to fight it off naturally, and that is risky.

> Mind craft and snapping out of confusion should train willpower.

Naturally fighting off confusion does already.

Also, there is a massive amount of training of one stat, I think willpower, if
one successfully sacrifices themselves. This doesn't count for trying to trick
your way out of the sac though, it is only applied if you really succeed.

I say train Le: via monster memory or identified items. Le is a difficult increase.

[Tyrnyx]

To train learning: I think that identifying items would work nicely as it's something that continues to happen but not too often. How would you suggest using monster memory - seems abusable as I'm imagining it...

Edit: Read the original post again - it seems like the monster memory update would happen automatically, just like discovering most new locations. I feel like it should be an action that the player takes instead of passive. Id'ing items fits that qualification.

[SinsI]

Dx: Supposedly this is trained by catching boomerangs, but I've never seen an increase as a result of this. Using missiles in general might be an alternative, I suppose, but that might make it too easy. Dodging missiles and spells already train Dodge and Alertness, respectively, so maybe not ideal there. Maybe scoring a critical hit (or a critical hit with a missile) could train Dx. Active training with herbs means this doesn't need to be a particularly efficient training method, I suppose.

Pe: Detecting traps and secret doors should train Pe.

Both actually work, but the problem is that they don't take into account the difficulty and frequency of doing those things:
Walking one step while Strained with Strength 10 is equivalent to catching the boomerang 3 times or finding 3 doors or traps. (info from 1.1, might have been changed later).

[littlebrather]

My suggest for training Le is the remake of the Listening skill. IRC Climbing on high lvls trains Str, so the high lvl Listening could work this way either.

I do not remember is been satiated actually trains To; sorry if it was mentioned above.

[SinsI]

Since casting Ball spells depends on Willpower, it makes sense if they trained it.

[Tyrnyx]

My suggest for training Le is the remake of the Listening skill. IRC Climbing on high lvls trains Str, so the high lvl Listening could work this way either.

The problem lies, once again, with the fact that the listening skill is passive, where as climbing is usually active. Now, climbing out of pits puts in an element of inevitable but I still think that a training should be something *actively* done. ID'ing item works in that you have a passive yet inevitable element (stepping on things in a shop, putting them on, etc) and an active element (reading scrolls of ID).

If some things could *only* be heard due to a high listening skill then it might work out. (If this is already the case forgive me, I've never noticed in the may many times I've played this game - I've only noticed that it increases the chance to hear something). However, this seems to deal more with perception than learning.