Thrundrarr's "kill quest"

[magpie]

I just want to start off by saying, I love ADoM. Duh! Or I wouldn't spend so much time playing it! I honestly think it's one of the best games I've ever, ever played, for a whole slew of reasons I don't need to spent time enumerating to fellow ADoM fanatics. And I'm massively grateful to Thomas for all the time he's spent creating it over the years.

That said ...

I loathe Thrundrarr's first quest, to "kill a <foo>". Loathe it. It's bad. It sucks.

Here's the problem as I see it:

It's either ludicrously easy - "kill a giant rat", "kill an orc" ... Which isn't so bad, but it doesn't feel like a quest at all. The only thing worse in this regard would be a 'go collect me some herbs - I feel a bit of a cough coming on!', or 'Give me some gold - my treasury is feeling a bit empty right now!'

... or it's ridiculously grindy. He'll assign you with a mid-level monster which is super-rare - like, you'll see 4 or 5 in a whole game if you play all the way to D:50 - but if you don't do it, you are blocked from doing any other of his quests, except for the 'portal' quest. Great! Another 2 or 3 hours grinding the Big Room or the ID just to have a chance to do it - or otherwise, just give up the idea of doing any of his quests! I don't mind grinding, but to be forced to grind, or you're denied the chance to do a fair percentage of the quests which are in the game?!? Are you kidding?!? Because when I play ADoM, the first thing I think is, 'Wow, I hope I have to spend hours grinding S'es in the Big Room this game!!!'

Furthermore, when a ridiculously rare monster is generated, it makes me NOT want to play ADoM any more. A quest which, most of the time, just makes me want to do something - ANYTHING - else, rather than continue playing.

It sucks. It just reeks of 'placeholder'. And it's been in the game for a long, long, long time.

Can this please, please be replaced with something that doesn't suck, and soon?

(I say this, Thomas, with the utmost respect. ;) )

PS: I am playing on pre 20; I understand this issue has been addressed since, and doesn't apply any more since the extreme random nature of the quest has been addressed.

[Ravenmore]

Here's the RFE regarding this quest:
http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=1880

I guess Thomas tweaked it somewhat and more changes are coming, based on feedback.

[magpie]

Thank goodness. I really hope so! Please, Thomas, please! :)

[asdf]

Are you playing 1.1.1? Thundaar's quest is perfectly fine and fixed already in latest prereleases.

[Tyrnyx]

After version 20's typically much rarer monster and the extreme strategies I did to complete it: don't go down one of the double stairs until after almost every other option - typically not finding it until the TotHK, version 23s seems rather tame. Personally, I haven't gotten a monster that wouldn't normally be generated in an [mildly] extended stay in the big room. Troll seems a common choice.

One option would for the player to do that quest at his/her leisure and not have it bar the entire chain of quests. However, an argument against that is that the whole chain is in itself unnecessary. I'm sure that the Creator considered this.

[kNightCrawler]

In the latest publicly released version, 1.2.0pr23, Thrundarr only ever seems to assign either a dark orc, troll or hill giant. It seems pretty reasonable for the point in the game in which he gives the quest, the completely random monster thing sure did used to be annoying... =\

[GordonOverkill]

Dark Orc, Troll and Hill Giant sound perfect to me. Somehow they all appear kind of related to dwarven culture, so it also fits thematically.

[Carter]

Dark Orc, Troll and Hill Giant sound perfect to me. Somehow they all appear kind of related to dwarven culture, so it also fits thematically.


agreed.

please god don't touch this quest again. PLEASE.

[Heikki]

In the latest publicly released version, 1.2.0pr23, Thrundarr only ever seems to assign either a dark orc, troll or hill giant. It seems pretty reasonable for the point in the game in which he gives the quest, the completely random monster thing sure did used to be annoying... =\

I had to kill a lightning lizard. One was found in Rehetep's place so that was easy, but this can really be frustrating sometimes. Luckily I've had this assigned only once. Still I think this quest is fine and should not be touched anymore.

[LexyBoy]

The problem I see with it is that Thrundarr's quests are supposed to be guidance for new players. After getting assigned a quest which involves trawling round waiting for some random monster, they will naturally proceed down and so very likely stumble upon the DH/AF split. Sure, they'll figure out that DH is a deathtrap soon enough but will miss out on Thrundarr's quests until they work out to complete the first quest before descending.

Also, it's too arbitrary - wouldn't Thrundarr ask you to do something at least a bit useful? Like wipe out an ant nest on the level below, or visit DFG and report back, or take a message to the mad minstrel or something? To me, it doesn't matter if it's easy, he's just asking you to prove yourself. The other quests are all a piece of piss anyway.

[YourMum]

I've been getting things like orc, troll, and goblin variants, sometimes something like a caveman, and they fell like it's the right sort of level. Some aren't that tough really, but they're the right sort rarity I feel. There's a chance you might them a level or 2 above DT, or maybe you have to go rummaging around ToTHK, but as you're likely to go through these locations anyway it hardly seems grindy.

[JellySlayer]

The current quest seems fine. The way that monster generation is set up, there is a rather high chance that you will find the monster you want after exploring a level or two near DT. Short of removing this quest entirely (which I'd be okay with), I think this is about as good as it will get.

[Sardaukar]

I tend to get Troll Berserker repeatedly with Dark Elf characters in p23. Not super rare, but usually I have killed either 1 or zero at that point of game.

[mjkittredge]

Dark elven princess hasn't shown up in the 6 levels I've gained since getting the quest. I'm going to run out of things to do before the DH/Forest.

As others have pointed out, by the time I actually complete this the other quests in the chain will be trivial.

[sylph]

Dark elven princess hasn't shown up in the 6 levels I've gained since getting the quest. I'm going to run out of things to do before the DH/Forest.

As others have pointed out, by the time I actually complete this the other quests in the chain will be trivial.

Then skip it!
My own personal advice on this topic: It's not compulsory in any way, shape, or form. In adom, sometimes, 'screw that' is the best answer to a given situation. Part of being good at the game involves being able to spot these ignorable obstacles before you're invested resources in overcoming them.
The only punishment for going to the animated forest is a second random monster quest. Both of them will probably be solved by the time you reach the water temple. Even if they are not, you don't have to do Thundarr's quests. Sometimes (maybe 1/10 games) you have a run without Thundarr's help - Seriously, the game is more fun, due to it's variety and non-linear problem-solving based quest progression, if you just let that quest complete itself instead of trying to finish it every game! Just learn to enjoy that variety!

[YourMum]

The thing that bugs me the most is that I probably would ignore it sometimes but I try a little harder to complete it to avoid forfitting the reward for theAF/DH quest. THe wand you get is so very useful for the the 3 main undead dudes for normally face later on, griff+nonak, rehetep, and the skeletal king.

[SinsI]

IMHO, that monster should just be forced-generated on one of the levels around Dwarven City once the quest is given, and if he dies due to non-PC cause, he should be automatically generated on another of those levels.

[shockeroo]

Generally anything assigned by Thrundarr now can be found easily on D:12. It took me ages to realise this, since some of the monsters have had their rarity/danger levels changed over the past few releases.

[mjkittredge]

Then skip it!
My own personal advice on this topic: It's not compulsory in any way, shape, or form. In adom, sometimes, 'screw that' is the best answer to a given situation. Part of being good at the game involves being able to spot these ignorable obstacles before you're invested resources in overcoming them.
The only punishment for going to the animated forest is a second random monster quest. Both of them will probably be solved by the time you reach the water temple. Even if they are not, you don't have to do Thundarr's quests. Sometimes (maybe 1/10 games) you have a run without Thundarr's help - Seriously, the game is more fun, due to it's variety and non-linear problem-solving based quest progression, if you just let that quest complete itself instead of trying to finish it every game! Just learn to enjoy that variety!

I agree with what you're saying, to an extent. I don't want anything handed to me on a silver platter or too easy, and I like that this is a hard game that I have never beaten in the 10 years of playing it.

On the other hand, I think little steps can and should be taken to make this quest less RNG dependent and less rare monsters being assigned (as it looks like it has been in later versions based on RFE response, which I will check out once I finish my current characters and switch to the latest version).

[sylph]

I agree with what you're saying, to an extent. I don't want anything handed to me on a silver platter or too easy,
You should read through the RFEs then. It used to be able to request a Ki Rin! It was made easier then easier then easier! Every time TB dumbs the quest down, the slippery slope continues and people continue to post on the forums to get it made easier still.
I like overcoming problems. I don't like considering 'whine on the forums until it gets changed' a satisfying way to overcome a problem in any game, and this quest, above almost everything else in the game, has been whined to a pathetically easy state these days.
The key is, for me, realising that it's not a quest you have to do. You'll have the same issues if you believe finding an AoLS for Khelly is compulsory - it's much better (and more fun) to learn to play without it sometimes and appreciate the variety.

@Yourmum: My whole point about variety is that overcoming the pyramid, griffyard, and arena without the wand are actually interesting challenges to tackle in the early-mid game, and the solutions will vary depending on your class and your adventure so far! I appreciate what you're saying about the wand being valuable, but that was my entire point! :)

[Al-Khwarizmi]

The problem with the quest as it was some prereleases ago was not the difficulty of the quest in isolation - is that it was much much harder than the following Thrundarr's quests, and by the time you completed this one, the others were boring and meaningless. For a PC that has gone as far as the TotHK or possibly the ToEF before finding their random monster, the ogre cave is a joke.

Say what you want, but having a sequence of quests that must be done in order and where the first one is way way harder than the others is just plain bad game design.

That said, in the latest prereleases the quest is just fine IMO. The problem was in previous prereleases but it was solved, I don't think the quest needs any more tweaking now.

[Tyrnyx]

I personally think this quest is great at it's current place.

I think it would be interesting for an additional random monster quest to be added at the end except make the monsters really rare ones. Like a bounty hunt. Reward: Visit the Smith for an upgrade (+2,+2) for a piece of armor.

For the final quest: instead of the greater demon have it be something rare but random. I almost always sac the demon to avoid stat loss more than anything else...

Anyway, just my thoughts on the Dwarven quests as a whole. I love the rewards but they are unnecessary so if you get something rare just keep movin'!

[Tannis]

I think this is one of the weaker quests in the game. I would prefer that the quest target be a named monster (buffed too) that appears somewhere in an already explored CoC level. I'd gladly reexplore a bunch of levels if finding the target was ultimately a guarantee.

[mjkittredge]

You should read through the RFEs then. It used to be able to request a Ki Rin! It was made easier then easier then easier! Every time TB dumbs the quest down, the slippery slope continues and people continue to post on the forums to get it made easier still.
I like overcoming problems. I don't like considering 'whine on the forums until it gets changed' a satisfying way to overcome a problem in any game, and this quest, above almost everything else in the game, has been whined to a pathetically easy state these days.
The key is, for me, realising that it's not a quest you have to do. You'll have the same issues if you believe finding an AoLS for Khelly is compulsory - it's much better (and more fun) to learn to play without it sometimes and appreciate the variety.

@Yourmum: My whole point about variety is that overcoming the pyramid, griffyard, and arena without the wand are actually interesting challenges to tackle in the early-mid game, and the solutions will vary depending on your class and your adventure so far! I appreciate what you're saying about the wand being valuable, but that was my entire point! :)

I haven't heard anybody whining about this or anything else. I think you are just an overreacting masochist. And I really don't see how the quest has been dumbed down. You seem to not understand, the quest is meant to be gained by as early as level 6, and part of a chain which penalizes you if not done in order. TB put it in meaning for you to get it and do it and the others, but then it falls victim to horribly bad luck RNG which in many cases makes it very hard if not impossible to do without screwing up the other quests or using up too much time before the double background corruption rate kicks in. I think it's unintended consequences which undermines how the creator wanted the quest chain to go. I don't think he envisioned a level 30 character fighting the Greater Demon attacking the town because the RNG was ridiculous.

You're in the minority here, in fact the only one I've seen who wishes it were harder or thinks it's great that many times it's impossible to do because the damn monster just won't spawn. It's kind of pointless to have an occasionally near impossible quest given - why be given a task you potentially can't do? It goes against the spirit of the game and having quests at all and doesn't make sense. I hope with the deluxe version you get an option to turn up the randomness and difficulty so you can drive yourself crazy.

Maybe as an alternative make it a tough fight, like each time it's a unique monster with an entourage of guards but guaranteed to spawn. I'd rather risk dying than have that quest undone for half the game, taunting me and my completionist nature. Hahaha RNG won't let you complete it, haha! So annoying! Like a game where the 1 guaranteed climbing set gets destroyed and you can't get another one to get the RotHK

[Evil Knievel]

"Kill a random monster" is in my opinion bad game design in itself, because it is a lazy way to generate a boring/grindy/pointless/impossible quest, which does not give the player a clear direction other than hoping for getting lucky.

I'd think that a proper quest would be better, even if hard.

EDIT: I should say that it is good that randomness has been reduced, because it shifts the quest from grindy/impossible to just boring, but it does not solve the problem of the quest making me as a player not happy in the slightest.

[magpie]

I don't like considering 'whine on the forums until it gets changed' a satisfying way to overcome a problem in any game, and this quest, above almost everything else in the game, has been whined to a pathetically easy state these days.

... You're kidding, right? :rolleyes:

The problem with the quest was not that it was easy; the problem was that it was a bad quest. It was either ludicrously easy ('kill an orc'), or far too grindy for that point in the game. I play ADOM to have fun, not to give myself an RSI.

As for the quest not being compulsory; there's not many quests in ADOM at all, and not being able to complete this one blocked about half of the quests that are in the game. In that case, what's the point of having any quests in the game at all? You might as well go back to prehistoric ADOM where there weren't any quests, and everything 'hadn't been whined to a pathetically easy state'. ;)

(I will say, I'm still on pre20; I understand it's better in recent versions.)

[_Ln_]

Is this still raging?

There are simple steps to solve the problem - someone should go to RFE section, create a new RFE with topic "Change Thrundarr's first quest (again)" with the following text:
"Please make first quest to kill <foo> boss monster and set a flag to make the very next boss monster appearance to be <foo> and boost the chance of boss monster appearance (for the duration of the quest) several times in order to ensure its generation in reasonable future. <foo> type should scale to the PC's level at the time of getting the quest."

This will mostly ensure reasonably quick quest completion, tie boss monsters to quests and ensure reasonable amount of challenge depending on the PC's level.