Thoughts about one-time casting of wish spell.

[Blasphemous]

This thread got me thinking about wish spell:
http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=3363

The thing is that casting wish either from the spellbook or from memory has a ridiculous cost in form of -10 to a random stat.
What this means is that characters that could perhaps achieve a one time feat of casting wish due to a lucky potion/wand of wonder use, will never do that because the cost exceeds the gain.
Either the wand or the potion might grant ~1-100 spell knowledge of wish.
The exact amount is irrelevant, as casting the spell will invariably always consume all of those points, as each time it's cast, it eats ~300 points.
So, your one in 10 characters that was lucky (or is it even less frequent to get some wish spell knowledge in this fashion?), has actually not been that lucky at all because of the extra costs involved.

Nothing that you can wish for will be worth the equivalent of losing 10 points in a stat, especially if it's way past 25 and thus virtually impossible to rebuild without multiple rare potions.
The only reason to ever cast a wish from the spellbook is if you want to cast it hundreds of times, as in by an archmage wizard.
At that point the -10 to random stat is of no importance as you increase HP/PP directly.
So what's the point?

Those who can cast it once will not do it; those who can cast it many times will not be bothered by the loss of stats they will rebuild soon enough.
No character class other than a wizard and perhaps a necromancer/priest, will reach the PP/HP requirements even at level 50 with large item buffs and other useful bonuses from stat boosts etc, without extensive grinding.
So then what is the point of all that grinding to get the required PP/HP, when subsequently you get a random stat ruined?
You're better off spending half an hour real time on UC cavernous levels waiting for a random RoDS or WoW to drop or just dipping PoRC and then getting potions of exchange in D:1, then dip rings on D:8.
In the former case, during all that wish hunting, you'll inevitably get other items - rings, potions, scrolls, wands - that will more than make up for the time wasted on looking for the wish.
In the latter case, you might even get 2 or three wishes this way and at virtually no cost other than time and perhaps some corruption.
Double gain and no stat drain.

As for an archmage - you still need to either wait for silvernight as a lawful character, use the special "tingling sensation room" or have mana battery. From what I know only two of those effects stack.
That leaves us with 1 instance of a PC that can cast the wish and is going to do so repeatedly with complete disregard for -10 stat decrease versus 21 instances of PCs that will never even consider casting it because of the unbearable consequences.
That's a prime example of poor game design to me.

[ghostjghost]

How is not letting everyone have infinite wishes poor game design?

If everyone could achieve infinite or even cost effective wish easily, the game would quickly become unbearably boring.

While I agree the -10 stat is somewhat extreme, I think the rest of the negatives balance the game nicely, perhaps cutting it to a -3 or -4 stat would be a reasonable change as that can be made up with a single wish or blessed potion of attribute.

Either way, Wish was never meant to be mass cast in the first place, I find it amazing that the "archmage" is even remotely possible, which is cool, but that's enough as it is.

[Blasphemous]

How exactly does everybody achieve infinite wishes? They don't. Who's talking about mass casting? Certainly not me. I think you misread what I said.
I'm only asking about the -10 stat penalty, NOT the HP/PP cost.
That way you'd still have to work your ass off to even get remotely close to casting the wish ONCE, as in casting it from memory a single time in the entire game.
At least in this case you would not be penalized for working your way towards a single cast of the most demanding spell in the game.
Even getting any castings of wish in the first place is a rarity. I haven't found the spellbook randomly since prerelease 5 and I have played many characters since.
Being a completionist, I've explored many areas. It virtually does not drop.
Only wizards have a guaranteed spellbook in the sinister library, every other char has to either find it randomly or get enough castings for *one* time from potions/wands of wonder.
For two castings you'd need perhaps a hundred potions and wand charges and that's still not guaranteed.

I see absolutely no way to abuse this, given the fact they'd still need thousands of PP to cast it and survive.

[JellySlayer]

I don't see any particular harm in removing the penalty. Blasphemous is right... by the time you're high level enough to be able to cast Wish, the odds of you actually needing to do so is pretty low unless you're going for an Archmage. I know that probably more than half of my post-Casino wishes end up either unused, or used on something that I don't really need that badly. The only thing the penalty really does do is make it more annoying for Archmages who want to cast constantly, I guess.

Off the top of my head, you could exploit this by using beggar booze to mass charge up a wand of wonder until you get wish, then use the PoUH scam from Jharod to get enough HP to cast it. You could do this at quite low level, but it would be very, very time-consuming to do it.

[Blasphemous]

I don't think that "very time-consuming" gives it justice.
The costs of casting any spell, including wish, increase by 1% for every point below spell knowledge 100.
You typically get 1-30 spellcasting points per potion of wonder, around the same for wands, with some variations depending on B/U/C status.
That corresponds to ~5500 power points in spellcasting cost. HP has a multiplier of around 1.8 last I checked.
Good luck milking Jharod for ~2k potions... I'm a grinder and scummer but even I wouldn't dare to try this.
Also on a test char, it took me almost 100 potions of wonder to get spell knowledge of wish up to an astounding number of 27, where the cost of casting was "only" 5190 PP.

[ghostjghost]

My apologies, you are right I did not properly understand what you meant. I thought of wish farming in general and completely overlooked the fact that you were talking about casting it.


"Off the top of my head, you could exploit this by using beggar booze to mass charge up a wand of wonder until you get wish, then use the PoUH scam from Jharod to get enough HP to cast it. You could do this at quite low level, but it would be very, very time-consuming to do it. " - Jellyslayer

This is basically what I was thinking, I usually get at least one wand of wonder before heading off to the CoC and excess PP does not subtract from HP when a Wand of Wonder is used.

While very boring and time consuming, you can get effectively infinite wishes relatively early on as well as decent spell knowledge of many other useful spells.

[plllizzz9]

Good luck milking Jharod for ~2k potions... I'm a grinder and scummer but even I wouldn't dare to try this.

>>

<<

http://gyazo.com/67979085ddc2b4672d6d4d4dbf0a8c28

it goes faster than you think v///v

[Blasphemous]

My apologies, you are right I did not properly understand what you meant. I thought of wish farming in general and completely overlooked the fact that you were talking about casting it.


"Off the top of my head, you could exploit this by using beggar booze to mass charge up a wand of wonder until you get wish, then use the PoUH scam from Jharod to get enough HP to cast it. You could do this at quite low level, but it would be very, very time-consuming to do it. " - Jellyslayer

This is basically what I was thinking, I usually get at least one wand of wonder before heading off to the CoC and excess PP does not subtract from HP when a Wand of Wonder is used.
While very boring and time consuming, you can get effectively infinite wishes relatively early on as well as decent spell knowledge of many other useful spells.

But this is something that is already in the game and if you don't like it, I encourage you to post a relevant RFE.
Getting a wish from a wand of wishing is certainly possible and if you charge it many times, you will eventually get it, but what does that have to do with spellcasting wish from memory or bookcasting it?
Nothing. You don't get the -10 stat penalty for getting a wish from a wand of wonder so why should you get it for casting it like any other spell, when being able to do so is so much more difficult?
We're talking about spell memory here. Getting some of it from the wand or potion is just the first step and by far the easier one. Actually casting it and surviving... that's a whole different pair of shoes.


While very boring and time consuming, you can get effectively infinite wishes relatively early on as well as decent spell knowledge of many other useful spells.

Please point me to a single YAVP or any ancardia log that shows clearly that *somebody*, even a single person has ever done this.
I claim there are none because this is just not in the least feasible in terms of real world time consumption.
You can get perhaps one wish this way and that is already a huge stretch. Getting infinite wishes early on? Buddy, please...
I have not had a wish from wand of wonder since 1.1.1 and I always drain them all of charges in wilderness just to see if I can actually get one.

[ghostjghost]

But this is something that is already in the game and if you don't like it, I encourage you to post a relevant RFE.
Getting a wish from a wand of wishing is certainly possible and if you charge it many times, you will eventually get it, but what does that have to do with spellcasting wish from memory or bookcasting it?
Nothing. You don't get the -10 stat penalty for getting a wish from a wand of wonder so why should you get it for casting it like any other spell, when being able to do so is so much more difficult?
We're talking about spell memory here. Getting some of it from the wand or potion is just the first step and by far the easier one. Actually casting it and surviving... that's a whole different pair of shoes.

I get that now, thus my earlier apology.


Please point me to a single YAVP or any ancardia log that shows clearly that *somebody*, even a single person has ever done this.
I claim there are none because this is just not in the least feasible in terms of real world time consumption.
You can get perhaps one wish this way and that is already a huge stretch. Getting infinite wishes early on? Buddy, please...
I have not had a wish from wand of wonder since 1.1.1 and I always drain them all of charges in wilderness just to see if I can actually get one.

I was speaking theoretically, but point taken, I myself certainly do not have the patience for it or even to look for someone who does.

[grobblewobble]

The thing is that casting wish either from the spellbook or from memory has a ridiculous cost in form of -10 to a random stat.


I do not agree. The reason I do not (normally) use a one-time wish has nothing to do with the stat loss and everything with the amount of HP and mana you need to survive it. If the stat loss was the only drawback, I would not hesitate a second in most games where I had the luck to get the spell.

Stat losses are not that bad in the late game. In fact, more than half of your stats are completely irrelevant. So with a little luck it is not a penalty at all. And even if you are really unlucky and your most important stat is hit (say, toughness), you can deal with that pretty easily by the endgame. And again, the risk that it does hit your best stat is only small!

And sometimes you do really need something in the endgame. Or in the midgame! (Without the excessive mana cost you could actually cast it much earlier.) Especially if you're playing an ultra. In an ultra it can be really annoying when you're still missing that final quest item and you need to grind for it. I'd be really happy to pay 10 points of a random stat for an AoLS or a scroll of danger. But even in a normal game, wands of destruction, or whatever it is that you never found can be worth it.

Wishes have enormously diminishing value. A single wish is often great, it can be that one thing you really need. The second wish is worth much less, typically; it'll be that thing you don't really need, it's just handy. The tenth wish is for something you really don't need.

The stat loss does exactly the opposite of what you say. For someone who wants to make one wish it hardly matters. For archmages it is much more important, because if you get such a penalty many times, it suddenly equals resetting all your stats to 1. Archmages need to think about this and work around it. For someone who really needs that one item? I can miss those ten points of charisma, really.

[divij]

The reason I do not (normally) use a one-time wish has nothing to do with the stat loss and everything with the amount of HP and mana you need to survive it.

And sometimes you do really need something in the endgame. Or in the midgame!

Wishes have enormously diminishing value.



Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

i think if i can guaranteedly get a wish with a random 10 stat loss on my character there are multiple games ill use it...especially if it can help me kill ACW with a weak character when a normal fight will with a reasonable chance have ME killed instead. now you can say 'well you can grind in cavernous levels till you get a good inventory'..but sometimes i dont want to grind!! i just saved/stopped playing a game because after 60 BDs killed i havent found a SINGLE corpse...thats the kind of patience i have!!

[BenMathiesen]

I agree it would be nice if the requirements and/or penalties for casting Wish were reduced a little.
Assuming you find the book, and get the spell knowledge over 100, I would like a L40 wizard or priest to be able to cast the spell without killing themselves. It should be a stretch, but possible, for example, by hoarding potions of boost mana and scrolls of power, wielding Mana-boosting items, waiting for Silvernight, and so on.
I think I've only had one character ever who could have survived casting Wish from memory, and by the time he was there he had already won the game.

[Silfir]

Granting a Wish is the prerogative of djinns and other supernatural forces from beyond the veil. For a mere mortal to tap into that power even for one fleeting moment is virtually unheard of. Dabbling with powers beyond one's place takes a real, physical toll on one's very being.

The stat penalty makes complete sense thematically. There is no compelling reason to remove it I can see. If you don't need the thing you're wishing for bad enough that you will accept the stat penalty as the cost of doing business, you don't need the wish.

[Blasphemous]

Wish is just a spell and wizards know it. They're the ones most likely to cast it in the first place, you don't need any supernatural beings for that.
Still, I get where you're going with this line of thought Silfir but we're kind of encroaching on TB's storytelling territory and usurping his right of lore that pertains to the world he created.
He'd have to address this first, otherwise your explanation is as good as mine.

[Silfir]

Wish is "just a spell"?

Is that why it's the only spell with a stat penalty on resolution and is almost impossible to learn and cast? Those things are just coincidental, and drawing any kind of conclusion from them as far as the place of the Wish spell in the world goes is encroaching on TB's storytelling territory?

If you're going to discuss the Wish spell, you can't just restrict yourself to game balance considerations - Wish is completely and utterly irrelevant to game balance. (At least not until your suggestion is aimed at making actually practical to cast - which would be a terrible idea.) You could double the stat penalty and it wouldn't change a thing. Barely anyone can cast it in the first place, and those that do either don't need to or they need to badly enough that the stat penalty is irrelevant. Wish exists solely for flavor. If you can't discuss flavor, there is no point to discussing Wish at all.

[gut]

wish isn't even listed as a spell in the manual

it is meant to be a rare and exciting thing. the spell is an extra chance at it, not just a supped-up item creation spell (which, btw is pretty costly itself considering it just gives you a leather cap or such 99% of the time)