Swear This Game is Needlessly Stupid Sometimes

[Whiskiz]

Twice in a row and another time not long after i get a creature turn into a writhing mass of primal chaos on the first, village dungeon and it gets about 30 hits into my crazy healing troll but just keeps going til i die, in one turn basically.

Go mist elf and of course, the same starter dungeon, 1 of the floors has (at least) 3 acid traps and i happen to hit all 3 and die.

Only time ive ever randomly been hit by balls of fire (not from the floor, any traps i can see or enemies, just walk into a room and suddenly a ball of flame with no (: m)essage to explain it) is when i went the squishy elf races a couple times.

Once was doing stuff with a chaos coaligned altar being careful not to stand on it for more than one turn at a time, but still a kobold randomly in one turn spawns off to the side and still close enough to sacrifice me killing me instantly in that same one turn so with no chance to react.

I have a pet that ends up killing karnach the raider, for the quest and am then not acknowledged as the slayer to receive the reward, because coding that in would be too smart.

The worst thing so far? since said run-in with a pet on karnach, seriously the next 4 games (***so far***) i have farmed the fuckin forest outside of town after picking the quest up from like level 2 until i am no longer elgibile for the quest (around level 6) using tons of food, making it dangerous and getting shit rusted from raining etc etc and have not, seen him, one time, in those hundreds, and hundreds, of turns..................... Plenty of bandit run-ins, plenty of bear fights even wizards jackals and dogs, what is even the point of having the fucking quest if the chance to do it is what 0.05%?

What other quests are so stupid you won't get them 99% of the time? it'd be great to know before wasting a life/time/character on said quests later on down the track, that would seriously, be stupid...

Game is so stupid in so many areas, im all for challenge and perma death, but as long as its death from not being good enough, making a mistake, not having the knowledge, making the wrong decisions, not factoring quite everything in etc etc

Thank god this 1.2 version was free, even though i would have gotten the torrent anyway, to try out cause im not paying a cent for a game this poorly designed, even for a proper hardcore roguelike (instant unavoidable death, not-so-instant but still *unavoidable* death and quests that dont even fucking work does not make a game more hardcore/better, it is a major design flaw.)

What a waste of space time and unfortunately effort, cause the game even though i haven't gotten far in from this stupidity and my own stupidity which im learning from but the former i can't do anything about, it really does look like it does some awesome stuff too, especially in the roguelike sense and it being an RPG roguelike, but what a shame parts of it are game breakingly retarded.

[heavensblade23]

Yes sometimes you get some bullshit deaths but it's really not that hard of a game once you learn how things work.

[GordonOverkill]

Twice in a row and another time not long after i get a creature turn into a writhing mass of primal chaos on the first, village dungeon and it gets about 30 hits into my crazy healing troll but just keeps going til i die, in one turn basically.

Well, the thrid time you will hopefully avoid it in melee. Just run away and come back later when you've got some jelly slaying ammunition.


Go mist elf and of course, the same starter dungeon, 1 of the floors has (at least) 3 acid traps and i happen to hit all 3 and die.

If your char was able to survive two acid traps, he must have been quite tough for a mist elf. Did you already use all your healing prayers before stepping into that last trap?


Only time ive ever randomly been hit by balls of fire (not from the floor, any traps i can see or enemies, just walk into a room and suddenly a ball of flame with no (: m)essage to explain it) is when i went the squishy elf races a couple times.

There are no enemies which cast ball spells, so it must have been a trap, probably activated by a monster.


Once was doing stuff with a chaos coaligned altar being careful not to stand on it for more than one turn at a time, but still a kobold randomly in one turn spawns off to the side and still close enough to sacrifice me killing me instantly in that same one turn so with no chance to react.

Did you close all the doors of that particular room? If you want to be 100% sure, create a small room made out of doors around that altar. That's what I always do when converting or just making use of one of the altars in the elemental temples.


I have a pet that ends up killing karnach the raider, for the quest and am then not acknowledged as the slayer to receive the reward, because coding that in would be too smart.

Well, that should probably be reported to Thomas and Jochen.


The worst thing so far? since said run-in with a pet on karnach, seriously the next 4 games (***so far***) i have farmed the fuckin forest outside of town after picking the quest up from like level 2 until i am no longer elgibile for the quest (around level 6) using tons of food, making it dangerous and getting shit rusted from raining etc etc and have not, seen him, one time, in those hundreds, and hundreds, of turns..................... Plenty of bandit run-ins, plenty of bear fights even wizards jackals and dogs, what is even the point of having the fucking quest if the chance to do it is what 0.05%?

You do that once or twice, then you know that you need some luck to encounter Kranarch. (if you intend to do so at all)


Game is so stupid in so many areas, im all for challenge and perma death, but as long as its death from not being good enough, making a mistake, not having the knowledge, making the wrong decisions, not factoring quite everything in etc etc

If I play seriously, I think that I get round about... well, probably 60-80% of my chars through the early game... and I am surely not a perfect player. Alot of things that you described could have been avoided with careful playing.


What a waste of space time and unfortunately effort, cause the game even though i haven't gotten far in from this stupidity and my own stupidity which im learning from but the former i can't do anything about, it really does look like it does some awesome stuff too, especially in the roguelike sense and it being an RPG roguelike, but what a shame parts of it are game breakingly retarded.

There are people (like myself) who consider ADOM the best game ever made. It takes some time to learn how to play it, but in my eyes it's definitely worth the effort.

[Blasphemous]

Let me just say this: screw Kranach. Ignore the quest totally.
It's not worth the effort or time because of its randomity.
If the reward was 10k gold, I just *might* consider doing it but ultimately I would probably not.
Last time I did it was likely a single digit prerelease, that's how little it matters.
By the time I'm done with DD/VD and PC, I will have more than 10k gold usually so this once again obsoletes Kranach's quest.
The reward is not even good enough to buy an occasionally nice item in the black market.

To Whiskiz:

I have a suggestion for you. Play on the ancardia server (either .us or .eu) and let us veterans know when that happens so we can spectate.
We'll find out if maybe you're doing something wrong and give an advice or two.
It would be nice if you were on the irc channel at the same time.

[_Ln_]

The chance to encounter Kranach is 25% once you have acquired the quest.

[GordonOverkill]

Well, it's 100% if you run around in the wilderness for long enough, but of course there are good reasons not to do that ;-)

However, Whiskiz, if you'd like some survival spoilers, I have recorded a video where I play a very fragile char (mist elven farmer) through the early game on a rather unlucky run (very few good findings and quite alot of retreats). So feel invited to take a look, if you like!
(Well, I actually die once due to obvious stupidity after round about five minutes, but at least the second char made it through the early game ;-) )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6g2tvMLWDo&feature=youtu.be

[_Ln_]

Well, it's 100% if you run around in the wilderness for long enough, but of course there are good reasons not to do that ;-)

I mean that every wilderness encounter has a 25% chance to be Kranach as soon as the quest is taken. The chance to get the fight as one of the first 10 encounters is about 94%.

[GordonOverkill]

Thanks, that's definitely intersting to know :-)

[Whiskiz]

@Gordonoverkill
"Well, the third time you will hopefully avoid it in melee. Just run away and come back later when you've got some jelly slaying ammunition."

As long as it's not, for example in one situation, in a corridor between me and the stairs going up, and that i not only have archery but am skilled enough to use ranged weaponry, and actually have ranged weaponry to use, again this was at the very start, the first dungeon...

"If your char was able to survive two acid traps, he must have been quite tough for a mist elf. Did you already use all your healing prayers before stepping into that last trap?"

Now i look back on it im not sure how i was able to survive the first 2 traps, im guessing since i only had around 10 hp the rolls on the first 2 were low for the damage, and i just (w)aited after the 2 to heal since 10hp doesn't take long, would have saved the prayers, hopefully.

"There are no enemies which cast ball spells, so it must have been a trap, probably activated by a monster."

That's weird then, i would go into an unlocked room with no monster nor trap and would be flame balled, it wouldn't kill me but would wreck my stuff, damage me, be completely random again from no signs of where it came from even from the (:m)essage log and again out of the 20 or so tries ive had so far was only 2 times when i played the squishy elf races (of course.)

"Did you close all the doors of that particular room? If you want to be 100% sure, create a small room made out of doors around that altar. That's what I always do when converting or just making use of one of the altars in the elemental temples."

Enemies still open doors, found this out early while (w)aiting in rooms to heal, they will spawn open the door and still come at you.

"Well, that should probably be reported to Thomas and Jochen."

It has already been documented on several siteson the net, its a known i guess, mechanic, lol...

"Alot of things that you described could have been avoided with careful playing."

Really? how so? how do you avoid death by wmopc at the start when you have no ranged capabilities yet and especially when its between you and the exit? How do you avoid multiple acid traps in one dungeon level without stepping on them how do you know they are even there to "avoid"? How exactly do you avoid an enemy spawning in one turn and sacrificing you to an altar you are dealing with in that same said turn? don't go on altars? don't get holy water and ID your stuff ever? no sacrificing items?

"Well, it's 100% if you run around in the wilderness for long enough, but of course there are good reasons not to do that."

That's just not true, i did say 4 different characters i farmed the forest outside of town from level 2 until the quest was no longer available.

Thanks for the offer of watching the video too but yeah i don't want to see any spoilers :p i wouldn't feel as accomplished if i ever passed the game having seen how others do it. But i have been dying to watch others play this just to see their playstyle and generally watching a game being played by others is more enjoyable, but i can't yet haha.

@Blasphemous
Thanks man, screw kranach indeed, it looks like either way i am not able to get the quest to pop again anyway even from farming the forest as i mentioned from level 2 until the sheriff says he has gone and countless encounters and food used, so i don't really have a choice in dropping it but knowing that while doing so helps.....

Also thanks for the offer, i might look into it, but i've always been one of those selfless people that don't want to take anyone elses time up with my problems :p unless you guys like to actually spectate people/new players and/or help them.

@Ln
"The chance to encounter Kranach is 25% once you have acquired the quest."
"I mean that every wilderness encounter has a 25% chance to be Kranach as soon as the quest is taken. The chance to get the fight as one of the first 10 encounters is about 94%."

Im sorry but although this may be how its intended it just isn't true, unless my mentioned pet killing him in one playthrough and me not getting recognition for the quest somehow has bugged future playthroughs which i doubt (again the pet killing quest and not getting reward is documented online, if it bugged kranach thereafter, others would have noticed and documented that also and it probably would have finally been fixed.) As i said, 4 times in a row, 4 characters, got the quest and farmed the forest from level 2 until the quest was no longer available, around level 6. I also forgot to mention this was mostly with a troll and the trolls much higher exp needed per level.... Waaay more than 10 encounters, per character. their 25% chance quest encounter is a joke, a poor, poor joke. Hoping again that quests further on down the track aren't this retarded, putting a hard earned and worked on characters life at risk from basically poor design.

Thanks for the feedback so far guys.

[GordonOverkill]

Like I said, I play this game for six years now and I got the impression that some skill can save most characters. Sometimes you have extremely bad luck and some chars are just doomed to die, but in my eyes it doesn't happen too often and definitely not more often than in other roguelikes that I play... actually even less since ADOM is the roguelike I am best at. If you don't like that at all, it's probably just a general chemistry-problem between you and the game/the genre.

For the Kranach quest...
"The First" meets Kranach as his second encounter after accepting the quest. After 588 turns and a little more than 6 days of game time the quest is finished successfully. The only thing he did for preparation was the beginners dungeon.
"The Second" meets Kranach as his third encounter. After 550 turns and a little more than 7 days the quest is finished successfully.
"The Third" meets Kranach as his eighth encounter. After 834 turns and 12 and a halve days the quest is finished successfully.
"The Fourth" meets Kranach as his third encounter, avoids the battle my misklicking and meets him again as his fourth encounter. After 522 turns and almost 7 days the quest is finished successfully.
"The Fifth" meets Kranach as his first encounter. After 385 turns and 1 and a halve days the quest is finished successfully.
All five test chars got a corpse from the raider lord, so probably that's guaranteed now.

What do we learn from this experiment?
1. _Ln_ was very likely absolutely right with his statistics.
2. Dwarven Paladins can easiely take out Kranach, even when they are only level 1.
3. I've got enough Dwarven Paladins to play for the months to come.
4. If you want to know what I suppose you did wrong with the quest, read this spoiler: The quest has an upper level limit. As soon as you reach experience level 6, Kranach will disappear and leave the land. Just talk to the sherrif on that point and he will inform you about these news.

[TheCableGuy]

I actually happen to agree with the claim that this game is "Needlessly Stupid."
But not so much that one about it being so poorly programmed.

Yeah, Stupid things tend to happen.... Often.... And not always your fault.

Like getting stuck in a Corridor in the Small Cave with (seemingly) endlessly
spawning monsters coming from both ends and your lvl seemingly Skyrocketing with each kill....

Or getting ambushed at lvl 1 in the Wilderness taking 1 step out of Terinyo...

Or dying of Starvation because nothing will drop so much as a bone, despite having 80+ Preservation...

So, yeah, the game is far too luck based and the odds are stacked against you for the entire game (even when cheating.)
Frankly, this game is a outlet for the Masochist in us all.
It needs a slight tweaking in the programming and maybe a little fine tuning of a couple of quests.
But otherwise a perfectly enjoyable waste of time.

[boat]

Enemies still open doors, found this out early while (w)aiting in rooms to heal, they will spawn open the door and still come at you.



You can always lock the door :)

Assuming the room is small enough, there should never be a spawn in the same room as you.

[TheCableGuy]

This is ironic.... I just played a game in which my pet finished off Kranach for me and I didn't get credit for the kill...

Yeah, that needs to be fixed.

[Whiskiz]

@GordonOverkill

"Like I said, I play this game for six years now and I got the impression that some skill can save most characters. Sometimes you have extremely bad luck and some chars are just doomed to die, but in my eyes it doesn't happen too often and definitely not more often than in other roguelikes that I play... actually even less since ADOM is the roguelike I am best at. If you don't like that at all, it's probably just a general chemistry-problem between you and the game/the genre."

Cool instead of just stating the cliche skill saves most characters situation how about replying to me asking for proof, explaining how i could have lived in those situations had i all the skill in the world, ill even repeat the situations statement:

"Really? how so? how do you avoid death by wmopc at the start when you have no ranged capabilities yet and especially when its between you and the exit? How do you avoid multiple acid traps in one dungeon level without stepping on them how do you know they are even there to "avoid"? How exactly do you avoid an enemy spawning in one turn and sacrificing you to an altar you are dealing with in that same said turn? don't go on altars? don't get holy water and ID your stuff ever? no sacrificing items?"

Great statement, now lets actually hear examples of the situations i have mentioned, to back it up.

"4. If you want to know what I suppose you did wrong with the quest, read this spoiler:
The quest has an upper level limit. As soon as you reach experience level 6, Kranach will disappear and leave the land. Just talk to the sherrif on that point and he will inform you about these news."

Did you even read one of my posts properly so far? multiple times i mentioned i farmed the forest from level 2 to around level 6 (with 4 characters in a row now) which is when iv'e seen the quest end and had to stop, so no, that had nothing to do with the problem, please actually read my posts before responding.

I have had the quest a few times in a row too, your random test with a few chars does not mean it is 100% guaranteed because i have seen that but for like *the 4th time now* after having *farmed the forest* *from level 2 to 6* with *4 characters in a row* *3 of them being trolls* and so needing more exp than usual, *i did not get kranach once* and it can't only be me when a few others have attested to the stupid randomness of it, so no Ln was 100% not right about 94% chance to hit the quest in just 10 fights, 25% on average that is just plain wrong, after my said experience and that of others here.

@Thecableguy

Exactly, this game is unfortunately more a gamble than anything to do with true skill or knowledge or awareness from what i've seen so far unfortunately. Imho gambling has no place in a game, especially in a hardmode/hardcore game where you are wanting to win through said skills and not failing sometimes because it is poorly coded and random, luck of the draw. Of course there is tons that does come down to skill but that is not the problem i am having, it has nothing to do with anything here so i don't know why a few people mentioned that, the problem is those (often enough) times when it has nothing to do with skill and your just dead regardless, those are the times im talking about here, and those times are retarded.

@boat

Didn't know you could lock doors without a key, heres to hoping each room with an altar in it has doors on them, or that i can create a door, every time without fail which i doubt sadly.


Just had a game with a human wizard, got to level 10, out of the 7 books i found, not one was an offensive spell, all were utility spells. I started with my one and only offensive spell which was cold bolt, at level 10 i ran into an eye of destruction which i now guess is immune to cold, died because it was immune to my only spell and i couldn't melee hit it and my ranged attacks were even worse. I found dark, light, mystic shovel, web and a few others so i only had one spell regardless of all the books i found and came across something immune to it, gg.

This game really does not want you playing it, really does not like you playing it, even though its an awesome idea being an openworld roguelike. I hope to god im smart enough to take the hint and soon, and hope someone someday does another openworld roguelike and actually does it properly, does it right, and doesn't inflict artificial challenge and death through poor coding and poor luck/randomness. That day, is the day im going to lose alot of money and time lol. What a shame this game does not even nearly come close to that day, but at least hopefully it gives other devs some awesome ideas and they make some openworld roguelikes too.

[StViers]

"Really? how so? how do you avoid death by wmopc at the start when you have no ranged capabilities yet and especially when its between you and the exit? How do you avoid multiple acid traps in one dungeon level without stepping on them how do you know they are even there to "avoid"? How exactly do you avoid an enemy spawning in one turn and sacrificing you to an altar you are dealing with in that same said turn? don't go on altars? don't get holy water and ID your stuff ever? no sacrificing items?"

1. You notice the message about a *foo* walking over the trap, and you just leave. Also, you can always guarantee that you have some ranged skills.

2. You make sure that you aren't walking around at a health low enough to just die from them, or if you are very concerned, you can pick a class with good hp and detect trap, and obsessively check things. More realistically, if you are hitting 3 acid traps in one location, chances are you were on a level with a *you sudder* message generated at the start.

3. Don't mess with chaotic altars until you can create/lock doors. You don't need altars to check how good your items are--either be impatient and play as a priest, or get used to iding items by price, or weight, or quantity, and making informed decisions about what to id by equipping (Gordon's post explains taht pretty well)

As to finding kranach, take quick as your starting talent. Then you can run from wilderness encounters fairly easily (with 102 speed you generally end up with only 1 monster from the horde keeping up with you, so just kill that and leave). I have never hit lvl 6 looking for kranach if I was deadset on finding him. I've starved, but thats because I was too lazy to stock up on food.

Remember that wizards can melee and throw things too. Usually when I play one, I make sure that if I'm facing a non-threatening monster, I'm using physical missiles first, and then meleeing it (usually on either 2 or 5 depending on my gear). On threatening monsters (cubes/ghouls, floating eyes, mimics etc) I use magic from a distance, but as I get ranks in a physical missile weapon I start using that instead, and kiting backwards.

All of the situations you have described *can* be solved. There are things that can 1-shot you, but usually if you pick a sturdy character they won't (doors falling/acid or fireball traps, etc). You can always train missiles, just start in the Infinite Dungeon and hop around until you find some rocks, or go to holeinthewall and get some rocks from the black market. (on coward tactics you can just run from threatening guys and let Hotzie's bouncers kill them).

Darkness is a pretty powerful spell, as monsters that can't see in the dark won't fight back if you hit them in darkness (unless they stumble into you, a newish change), so had you been meleeing that eye of destruction in the dark, you had a pretty good chance of killing it ;)

What it seems to boil down to is that you don't find long term planning/patience to be a skill, and thus think that the things that have killed you can't be planned for/avoided.

[GordonOverkill]

Apparently you are not only a frustrated player, but actually a very unfriendly frustrated player. Not interested spending my time with social interactions I don't enjoy, so I'm out of here.

e: Well, actually not quite out of here yet, but please behave a little less unpleasant, anyway ;-)

"The Sixth" dies on his first wilderness encounter... apparently troll berserkers are less invincible than dwarven paladings in such situations.
"The Seventh" meets Kranach at his nineth encounter. After 1029 turns and 14 days the quest is finished successfully. (By the way, I suppose that you are the only one who denies these numbers. The other people who call this quest "unreliable" very likely refer to chars like "The Seventh" who just have to spend big amounts of in game time on the quest untill they finally succeed)
"The Eighth" meets Kranach as his first encounter. After 680 turns and almost 2 days the quest is finished successfully.
"The Nineth" meets Kranach as his second encounter. After 424 turns and almost 3 days the quest is finished successfully.
"The Tenth" meets Kranach as his third encounter. After 414 turns and 3 and a halve days the quest is finished successfully.

What can I say... if we play the same game and if your own numbers are really correct, then you must be on a serious streak of bad luck. I played ten chars in a row now, half of them dwarven paladins, half trollish barbarians. One of them died early, the remaining nine met Kranach after less than ten encounters.* Not a single one had to return to Terinyo to buy food supplies, not a single one had to avoid fights in order to stay within the level restrictions. This actually fits with my experience from years of playing the game, so even if I play ahundred more test runs, I have almost no doubt that the results would be the same.

WMoPC situation: That's a serious case of bad luck. Roguelikes are supposed to randomly get you into horrible situations from time to time. Apart from that, obviously I cannot give you a sattisfying answer to your question as long as I don't actually see your performance in this situation. However, I can prove at any time that what you call the skill-cliche is indeed a matter of fact. Tell me a race-class combo that you don't believe to be survivable by skill and I show you that you are wrong in this point... could also play on the server, just in case you doubt the authenticity of the recordings... or just watch JellySlayer, Soirana or another one of the real top players play, who are ahundred times better than me... But well, sadly you refuse to watch these proves, but in that case I just cannot help you.

*My high success-rate against Kranach is of course also due to the fact that I can still enter the tutorial dungeon on the version of ADOM that I play, so all my chars started with longbow, arrows and wand of cold. Without this starting boost I would very likely suffer some more casualties ;-)

[JellySlayer]

@Gordonoverkill
"Well, the third time you will hopefully avoid it in melee. Just run away and come back later when you've got some jelly slaying ammunition."

As long as it's not, for example in one situation, in a corridor between me and the stairs going up, and that i not only have archery but am skilled enough to use ranged weaponry, and actually have ranged weaponry to use, again this was at the very start, the first dungeon...

You should have seen multiple messages about the corruption trap being triggered. Probably 10+ messages before the WMoPC spawns. Plenty of time to leave the level. If it so happened to spawn and you didn't have a wand or missiles, and couldn't make it to the up stairs, head for the down stairs. If you took speed talents to start (which you should), then you should be able to outrun a WMoPC without any trouble.


Now i look back on it im not sure how i was able to survive the first 2 traps, im guessing since i only had around 10 hp the rolls on the first 2 were low for the damage, and i just (w)aited after the 2 to heal since 10hp doesn't take long, would have saved the prayers, hopefully.

Mist elves die a lot. That's the price you pay for the pretty nice racial powers they get. You can take Hardy/Very Hardy type talents if you have enough starting To, or grab Sixth Sense for extra saves vs traps. Otherwise, play a different race. Mist elves aren't for beginners. Play drakelings, dwarves, or orcs instead. If you were playing a drakeling, you could kill that WMoPC with acid spit as well.


Enemies still open doors, found this out early while (w)aiting in rooms to heal, they will spawn open the door and still come at you.

I usually just convert or ignore chaotic altars. I've had too many accidental mishaps with them. Altars aren't so rare that you need to use the first one you find if it's chaotic. I've played games where I haven't used an altar until Dwarftown. Except for potions and scrolls, most items can be IDed in some way or other relatively safely without an altar or scroll.


How exactly do you avoid an enemy spawning in one turn and sacrificing you to an altar you are dealing with in that same said turn? don't go on altars? don't get holy water and ID your stuff ever? no sacrificing items?

Neutral and lawful altars are safe to use almost always. Monsters can't spawn in your line of sight. Unless they are faster than you, they can't step into range of the altar and sac you on the same turn. Were you running around Strained! or Bloated? Might be part of the problem.


That's just not true, i did say 4 different characters i farmed the forest outside of town from level 2 until the quest was no longer available.

Don't fight any wilderness encounters. Just run away. Clearing one or two can easily get you to level 6 and make the quest unavailable. Are you sure that you actually took the quest before you went looking for him? He will never spawn if you don't have the quest active. FWIW, I just tested with a troll monk, and by the time I had 10000 xps (almost level 6), I had seen him 4 or 5 times before I got bored and stopped.

[Silfir]

Of course the game is needlessly stupid sometimes. It's huge, and filled with details. And for the dominant part of its history, it was designed by one guy. So there will be oversights, such as Kranach's getting killed by a pet not completing the quest. (Two out of now twenty-two classes use pets.) It also includes procedurally generated dungeons, with random layouts, random monsters, random items, random dungeon features, random traps. That means the early game is sometimes easier, sometimes harder. Sometimes unfairly so. On the flipside, you have a game that can be replayed for decades and will still throw things at you that you didn't expect.

I'd much rather have a deep game that is needlessly stupid sometimes than a massively polished, extensively playtested puddle.

[divij]

ummm....what the OP said happened to me 1ce. i was a troll (i think in my barbarian days) and decided to do the kranach quest after clearing the smc and finding the wp blanket (there was a dangerous mixed tension room in UD1) and could not for the life of me find kranach.
i am not sure about this but me thinks that the level restiction for trolls for the kranach quest is a lot less than lvl 6....somewhere like lvl 4. because they lvl slowly they are resticted in this quest by their experience gain rather than their lvl. neways i rarely do kranch quest nowadays cause i do random race/class and dive the ud so i cant afford to have the smc generate at higher lvls

[_Ln_]

Like getting stuck in a Corridor in the Small Cave with (seemingly) endlessly
spawning monsters coming from both ends and your lvl seemingly Skyrocketing with each kill....

Or getting ambushed at lvl 1 in the Wilderness taking 1 step out of Terinyo...

Or dying of Starvation because nothing will drop so much as a bone, despite having 80+ Preservation...


Do not go into SMC with weak characters. Do not go into SMC with characters above level 1. In summary, do not go into SMC at all unless you absolutely know what you are doing and have an escape plan (better several). Learn how dungeon layouts typically work in ADOM. Turn back on the very first whiff of trouble (long corridor, summoner/breeder spotted).
Switch to Berserk to fight through one direction if sandwiched. Try to keep a weaker monster from one side. Remove armor to gain True Berserk bonus if all else fails and make a mad dash.

Unless you get ambushed so hard that you are surrounded by from all directions, you can run from almost all encounters. Get deliberately damaged to below 30% of hp (carefully at that), switch to Coward tactics. This will boost your effective speed to 1.2x of almost everything else allowing you to get away.

Visit the food shop in Terinyo and stock on food. Do not explore all parts of the level while low on food as monster generation is pretty slow once you've killed most things. Turn back if you are not sure of success.

Poor luck is not an excuse. It can legitimately kill some characters (including high-level) if you get some serious shit. However, if you play like a robot avoiding danger at all time, you will get a very high percentage of success. Not that it is any fun, but ADOM is not "far too luck based".

This is my honest opinion stemming from my experience.

[_Ln_]

ummm....what the OP said happened to me 1ce. i was a troll (i think in my barbarian days) and decided to do the kranach quest after clearing the smc and finding the wp blanket (there was a dangerous mixed tension room in UD1) and could not for the life of me find kranach.
i am not sure about this but me thinks that the level restiction for trolls for the kranach quest is a lot less than lvl 6....somewhere like lvl 4. because they lvl slowly they are resticted in this quest by their experience gain rather than their lvl. neways i rarely do kranch quest nowadays cause i do random race/class and dive the ud so i cant afford to have the smc generate at higher lvls

That is true, by the way, thanks for the reminder.
I believe Kranach quests has either level 6 and 5000 xp (or so) as breaking points.

[JellySlayer]

That is true, by the way, thanks for the reminder.
I believe Kranach quests has either level 6 and 5000 xp (or so) as breaking points.

I'm not sure about this. In the test I did earlier, Tywat Pare was still asking after Kranach after my troll had acquired nearly 10k xps (still level 5). I don't remember the last time I saw him for certain with that character, but I'm pretty sure it was over 5k xps.

[_Ln_]

I'm not sure about this. In the test I did earlier, Tywat Pare was still asking after Kranach after my troll had acquired nearly 10k xps (still level 5). I don't remember the last time I saw him for certain with that character, but I'm pretty sure it was over 5k xps.

Well, this info is in the IGB and sorear's wiki. I'm somewhat inclined to believe the latter although not in the face of your factual evidence. Perhaps some things were changed in some prerelease. Or perhaps this bit of info was retrieved very early and was erroneous.

[JellySlayer]

It could be that Pare will not tell you Kranach is gone until level 6, but Kranach doesn't spawn after 5000 xps. This might be worth investigating as it would presumably be a bug.

I'll test this a little more carefully.

[edit]Okay, yes, I believe this is a bug.

I was able to find Kranach with a level 4 troll with 4595 xps without any trouble.
Above 5000 xps (still level 4), I had 16 consecutive wilderness encounters with no Kranach. However, Pare still reports that Kranach is around. So I'm inclined to believe that Kranach spawning is based on xps, but Pare's information is based on level.

[TheCableGuy]

Do not go into SMC with weak characters. Do not go into SMC with characters above level 1. In summary, do not go into SMC at all unless you absolutely know what you are doing and have an escape plan (better several). Learn how dungeon layouts typically work in ADOM. Turn back on the very first whiff of trouble (long corridor, summoner/breeder spotted).
Switch to Berserk to fight through one direction if sandwiched. Try to keep a weaker monster from one side. Remove armor to gain True Berserk bonus if all else fails and make a mad dash.

Unless you get ambushed so hard that you are surrounded by from all directions, you can run from almost all encounters. Get deliberately damaged to below 30% of hp (carefully at that), switch to Coward tactics. This will boost your effective speed to 1.2x of almost everything else allowing you to get away.

Visit the food shop in Terinyo and stock on food. Do not explore all parts of the level while low on food as monster generation is pretty slow once you've killed most things. Turn back if you are not sure of success.

Poor luck is not an excuse. It can legitimately kill some characters (including high-level) if you get some serious shit. However, if you play like a robot avoiding danger at all time, you will get a very high percentage of success. Not that it is any fun, but ADOM is not "far too luck based".

This is my honest opinion stemming from my experience.

Honestly, I know how to run SMC well enough.
After too many years and countless deaths,
I can safely say I know it well.

But I tend to run my games pretty much the same way every game.
Go in, Find blanket, and Get out. Not much exploring involved outside of that intention.

But I'll have to disagree. Luck is a HUGE part of the game. Coming to a Fork in the SMC
and choosing the wrong path can spell your doom just by time restrains and RNG alone.

Sometimes, even GOOD Luck leads you to an early Death as well.
When I referred to getting caught in a tunnel and surrounded by constantly spawning monsters
was a time when I was playing a Halfling Merchant and I found a Blessed Eternium Greatsword of Slaughtering (with fantastic stats)
(didn't even have the Treasure Hunter Talent) on lvl one of the SMC.
Naturally, I equipped it and started plowing my way to the other side.
It was great until I started on my way back down a long Corridor,
and the Monsters started backing up in the direction I had to go.
Even Though I was Killing them as fast as they spawned, They just kept spawning.
Eventually, monsters started coming from behind me to.

The Kills just kept racking up, My Lvl was shooting through the Roof, and I was running out of healing (what little I had.)
It may of been a Fluke on account that the Dungeon generated kind of small (60% Corridors with small Rooms)
But that's luck for you.

[Dogbreath]

FWIW, the whole Kranach being killed by a pet thing isn't a bug. Tywatt Pare will actually mention it and refuse to give you the reward because someone else killed Kranach, not you. it's a scripted game event and definitely not a bug.

[biomateria]

FWIW, the whole Kranach being killed by a pet thing isn't a bug. Tywatt Pare will actually mention it and refuse to give you the reward because someone else killed Kranach, not you. it's a scripted game event and definitely not a bug.
It may be intentional, but is that a good thing? I'm with them - pet kills should count towards the quest. I know I'm basing my experience on games that have come after ADOM, but minion/partner kills should count towards player quests. I can get around the fact that pet level is independent of player level, but still...

[Whiskiz]

First of all some more awesome feedback from everyone involved.

@StViers
"1. You notice the message about a *foo* walking over the trap, and you just leave. Also, you can always guarantee that you have some ranged skills."

So when every time poor RnG makes an end game enemy spawn early, you have to leave that entire dungeon and miss everything from exp to gold to gear to quests and everything else there? Ok.

"2. You make sure that you aren't walking around at a health low enough to just die from them, or if you are very concerned, you can pick a class with good hp and detect trap, and obsessively check things. More realistically, if you are hitting 3 acid traps in one location, chances are you were on a level with a *you sudder* message generated at the start."

Did you read what i said? i said i was a mist elf with 10hp that hit 3 traps in the same dungeon level, max of 10hp, it was not from walking around low hp, please actually read properly what i said before responding to it. Apparently the you shudder message is a trap *room* these 3 traps were not in the same room just on the same level, so there would not have been that message.

"3. Don't mess with chaotic altars until you can create/lock doors. You don't need altars to check how good your items are--either be impatient and play as a priest, or get used to iding items by price, or weight, or quantity, and making informed decisions about what to id by equipping (Gordon's post explains taht pretty well)"

Too bad if learning is under 10 say from a troll character and the only way i can create a door is the slim chance i find the specific wand of door creation, and even if not, the chance of finding a book of wand creation in every playthrough to guarantee this strategy? and locking doors? There is very specific situations in which i can even do that, after doing some research. Ok cool so you have to research everything about the game first to counter the times it is clearly poorly designed, and then hope you have filled the criteria of said research to circumvent said poor design, every playthrough, also picking a priest and generally basing my entire character off *specific* random poor situations, which does not account for all the other poor situations (because you can't have everything, as it should be) is not a solution either i don't believe, but more of a bandaid for the problem instead of fixing it.

"As to finding kranach, take quick as your starting talent. Then you can run from wilderness encounters fairly easily (with 102 speed you generally end up with only 1 monster from the horde keeping up with you, so just kill that and leave). I have never hit lvl 6 looking for kranach if I was deadset on finding him. I've starved, but thats because I was too lazy to stock up on food."

Hitting level 6 should never have even been a problem, from farming the forest since level 2 and tons and tons of encounters in between.

"Remember that wizards can melee and throw things too. Usually when I play one, I make sure that if I'm facing a non-threatening monster, I'm using physical missiles first, and then meleeing it (usually on either 2 or 5 depending on my gear). On threatening monsters (cubes/ghouls, floating eyes, mimics etc) I use magic from a distance, but as I get ranks in a physical missile weapon I start using that instead, and kiting backwards."

All well and good if your a wizard. Also if how do you get said physical missiles, more than enough to use on all said non threatening monsters first and to level it enough, scum farming archers and rock throwers? er.

"All of the situations you have described *can* be solved"

So after responding to those said situation solvers, i still disagree, they can't easily be solved. Thanks for the feedback though.

"Darkness is a pretty powerful spell, as monsters that can't see in the dark won't fight back if you hit them in darkness (unless they stumble into you, a newish change), so had you been meleeing that eye of destruction in the dark, you had a pretty good chance of killing it"

Ah good to know, thanks. But again, and no offense, if you had read what i said properly, you would have seen where i said my melee attacks would not actually connect with the monster no matter how many times i swung, so i still would not have killed it and it may have probably followed me out of the darkness, i could not damage it, it was immune to my one and only offensive spell, my melee was naturally poor as a caster and i had no ranged weapon nor ranged skill anyway to help with the rolls for it, so this would not have helped that situation.

@JellySlayer
"I usually just convert or ignore chaotic altars. I've had too many accidental mishaps with them. Altars aren't so rare that you need to use the first one you find if it's chaotic. I've played games where I haven't used an altar until Dwarftown. Except for potions and scrolls, most items can be IDed in some way or other relatively safely without an altar or scroll."

But you wouldn't want to convert it if you are yourself a chaotic character, to use? And if you dont use your altar early and especially when you cant read, you cant id items and take a gamble with everything you equip? Again especially if you cant read for scrolls of uncursing, then there goes potions use too because you find as many bad potions as good and if they aren't ID'd, i found chugging random ones in times of need is 100% way to get yourself killed lol and **fair enough**

I also read converting altars is a dangerous practice, sacrificing on them may change your alignment instead, you may be pleasing that god instead and angering yours and a few other things, definitely not worth the risk, as seen here there's already enough potentially retarded RnG to get you killed.

"Don't fight any wilderness encounters. Just run away. Clearing one or two can easily get you to level 6 and make the quest unavailable. Are you sure that you actually took the quest before you went looking for him? He will never spawn if you don't have the quest active. FWIW, I just tested with a troll monk, and by the time I had 10000 xps (almost level 6), I had seen him 4 or 5 times before I got bored and stopped."

Clearing 1 or 2 encounters i found cannot level you from level 2 to level 6, especially as mentioned mostly as a troll where you need alot more exp, and so that was never a problem, i seriously had many many many encounters each time, way more than enough, thanks for the idea though and the rest of your feedback is good and makes sense, duly noted.

@Silfir
"It also includes procedurally generated dungeons, with random layouts, random monsters, random items, random dungeon features, random traps. That means the early game is sometimes easier, sometimes harder. Sometimes unfairly so. On the flipside, you have a game that can be replayed for decades and will still throw things at you that you didn't expect."

You know id been thinking about this idea myself, it is procedurally generated and has tons of depth, that can't make for a very good properly balanced game all the time every time, but still there are systems that can be made like parameters to stop end game monsters having chances to spawn in starting caves, quests not working properly etc.

@JellySlayer @divij @Ln On Kranach

Nice testing Jelly, thanks, that sheds some light on that. That does sound like it would indeed be the problem. See Divij like you i wasn't sure even at around level 4 if the quest was still up but i would check by the (q)uest log and by talking to the sheriff once in awhile to make sure the quest was still active which he stated it was, that Kranach had not left yet. But by the discussion here amongst us it turns out that although the sheriff would apparently say he still is out there, he was not because the sheriff was going off the level limit of 6 that we had not yet reached whereas there is also an experience limit which has changed for the troll race which we had reached.

What i find odd is the fact the experience limit parameter was individually set, for the troll in mind, but not the sheriffs response once it is reached first, for it. Which leads to what i have said a few times in conclusion, some poor design in a *few* areas, for another example besides generally poor situation and definite unavoidable and needless death generation, not receiving recognition for quest kills that your pet actually did, i can guarantee that is not a mechanic which like Dogbreath suggested, at no point did a developer decide you purposely don't get the reward just because your pet got the last hit in, surely......

[GordonOverkill]

So when every time poor RnG makes an end game enemy spawn early, you have to leave that entire dungeon and miss everything from exp to gold to gear to quests and everything else there? Ok.

That happens veeeeeeeery rarely, no more than every couple dozen games on average, and you even get a warning from those trap messages. From my perspective it's quite exciting the get such an extra challenge every now and then and it's somehow cool that in such cases you have to break with your routine and play a different early game.


Did you read what i said? i said i was a mist elf with 10hp that hit 3 traps in the same dungeon level, max of 10hp, it was not from walking around low hp, please actually read properly what i said before responding to it. Apparently the you shudder message is a trap *room* these 3 traps were not in the same room just on the same level, so there would not have been that message.

Mist elves are indeed very vulnerable to traps. But they are a very challenging race all in all and you learn that quickly enough. So if you can't handle them yet, rather play something else. ADOM provides perfectly unbalanced races and classes, so there is something exciting to play for players of all skill levels. I like that.


oo bad if learning is under 10 say from a troll character and the only way i can create a door is the slim chance i find the specific wand of door creation, and even if not, the chance of finding a book of wand creation in every playthrough to guarantee this strategy? and locking doors? There is very specific situations in which i can even do that, after doing some research. Ok cool so you have to research everything about the game first to counter the times it is clearly poorly designed, and then hope you have filled the criteria of said research to circumvent said poor design, every playthrough, also picking a priest and generally basing my entire character off *specific* random poor situations, which does not account for all the other poor situations (because you can't have everything, as it should be) is not a solution either i don't believe, but more of a bandaid for the problem instead of fixing it.

There is a guaranteed character that you meet very early on in the game and that sells keys to you. If you really rely on locking doors, just buy yourself a set of keys. Wands of door creation are quite common, so it shouldn't be a problem to get one of those. "Books of wand creation" do not exist.


Hitting level 6 should never have even been a problem, from farming the forest since level 2 and tons and tons of encounters in between.
What's your opinion about that testing that JellySlayer and I did? Apparently for us it's very, very easy to reliably encounter Kranach, so do you think that we were just extremely lucky?


So after responding to those said situation solvers, i still disagree, they can't easily be solved. Thanks for the feedback though.
And I still disagree with you x-D However...


Ah good to know, thanks. But again, and no offense, if you had read what i said properly, you would have seen where i said my melee attacks would not actually connect with the monster no matter how many times i swung, so i still would not have killed it and it may have probably followed me out of the darkness, i could not damage it, it was immune to my one and only offensive spell, my melee was naturally poor as a caster and i had no ranged weapon nor ranged skill anyway to help with the rolls for it, so this would not have helped that situation.
Would be great if you could somehow show us such a situation.


But you wouldn't want to convert it if you are yourself a chaotic character, to use? And if you dont use your altar early and especially when you cant read, you cant id items and take a gamble with everything you equip? Again especially if you cant read for scrolls of uncursing, then there goes potions use too because you find as many bad potions as good and if they aren't ID'd, i found chugging random ones in times of need is 100% way to get yourself killed lol and **fair enough**

There was alrady a reply that told you that there are other ways to find out about the quality of your items, even if you cannot read and don't use altars.


I also read converting altars is a dangerous practice, sacrificing on them may change your alignment instead, you may be pleasing that god instead and angering yours and a few other things, definitely not worth the risk, as seen here there's already enough potentially retarded RnG to get you killed.

Luckily you can avoid these dangers with careful preparation.


You know id been thinking about this idea myself, it is procedurally generated and has tons of depth, that can't make for a very good properly balanced game all the time every time, but still there are systems that can be made like parameters to stop end game monsters having chances to spawn in starting caves, quests not working properly etc.

The game is still (or rather: again) under developement and problems are being fixed all the time. Still at least I am not convinced that some of the thing you mentioned should be changed. I agree with you on other points like the matter with the pet killing Kranach, but I am almost 100% sure that quite alot of your deaths were not unavoidable at all for a halfway experienced player. Also I personally EXPECT a roguelike to throw horrible and hard to solve situations at me from time to time. Guess the game would start to bore me at some point if it didn't.

[mjkittredge]

I've died hundreds of times, and although some surprise deaths were extremely frustrating, I always had fun and have kept coming back to this game for a decade. A few of those deaths were to a Writhing Mass of Primal Chaos. Didn't know how strong they were! Most are to the SMC, or chain-paralyzation. Or water breath.

I accept that the game is random and at times very unfair. I understand that for most problems I encounter, there is usually a solution. I accept that I still have much to learn. All of this is what makes it exciting and fun. You'll be hard pressed to find a more challenging and rewarding game than this.

You write these massive posts about how it seems BS. Just keep playing, experimenting with race/class and birth-sign combos. You'll learn from your experiences, have some games with really super luck, and get much farther in the game. Don't let the bad luck and inexperience ruin it for you.

[_Ln_]

i can guarantee that is not a mechanic which like Dogbreath suggested, at no point did a developer decide you purposely don't get the reward just because your pet got the last hit in, surely......

How exactly can you guarantee that? There is a scripted reply from Tywat Pare concerning another being killing Kranach. Outside of pets doing that there is only one way this (someone else doing the last kill) - if a true neutral monster entered the wilderness square, decided to attack Kranach and successfully killed him. Taking into account the fact that Kranach is relatively tough among early game monsters (remember, xp level 6), you have to put a ton of effort in order to pull this.

All this lets me to believe that pet kills were deliberately added by TB as a quest ending action which denies the reward.

Don't get me wrong, I fully believe the design of this particular mechanic is pretty silly (especially animal pets are mostly mindless beasts that are ordered around; while necromantic slaves are simply the tools/weapons of their master). Level 6 and stealth 5k xp limit is borderline buggy behavior. There are a lot of other things that I disagree with. These things, however, do not mean that you can call ADOM poorly designed all over which you seem to do regularly. The size of the fan base, the fact that people donated 90000$ for a game that has not seen a release for about 10 years, means that Thomas is an excellent designer.

[JellySlayer]

So when every time poor RnG makes an end game enemy spawn early, you have to leave that entire dungeon and miss everything from exp to gold to gear to quests and everything else there? Ok.

It isn't so bad in Prerelease, but in 1.1.1, you regularly had to do this with rivers. There was a decent chance that at least one of the starter dungeons would have a river at some point, and if it was bad or you weren't a swimmer, well, then you just had to go elsewhere. Considering that there are five dungeons, VD, SMC, ID, PC, the new starter dungeon, in the immediate vicinity of Terinyo, losing access to one of them for a little while is usually not a huge inconvenience. WMoPCs are another reason to have to do this, and so is something like an early vortex or ogre magus. Part of a winning strategy is understanding the limitations of your character and not taking big risks when you don't have to.


Did you read what i said? i said i was a mist elf with 10hp that hit 3 traps in the same dungeon level, max of 10hp, it was not from walking around low hp, please actually read properly what i said before responding to it. Apparently the you shudder message is a trap *room* these 3 traps were not in the same room just on the same level, so there would not have been that message.

Well, I guess you can head to the PC and grab acid resist right away.


Too bad if learning is under 10 say from a troll character and the only way i can create a door is the slim chance i find the specific wand of door creation, and even if not, the chance of finding a book of wand creation in every playthrough to guarantee this strategy? and locking doors? There is very specific situations in which i can even do that, after doing some research. Ok cool so you have to research everything about the game first to counter the times it is clearly poorly designed, and then hope you have filled the criteria of said research to circumvent said poor design, every playthrough, also picking a priest and generally basing my entire character off *specific* random poor situations, which does not account for all the other poor situations (because you can't have everything, as it should be) is not a solution either i don't believe, but more of a bandaid for the problem instead of fixing it.

Wands of door creation are very common and happen to be quite easy to identify. Wands are also easy to test--just go into an empty wilderness square and fire your wands and see what happens. Chances are if you have five early game wands, one of them is door creation. As noted, keys are available to all PCs, though they're on the expensive side for some.


All well and good if your a wizard. Also if how do you get said physical missiles, more than enough to use on all said non threatening monsters first and to level it enough, scum farming archers and rock throwers? er.

That's an option. Wilderness barbarians are a great source of arrows, for example. Rocks are fairly common as drops, and you can get lots of them by letting the ants mine out PC:2.


Ah good to know, thanks. But again, and no offense, if you had read what i said properly, you would have seen where i said my melee attacks would not actually connect with the monster no matter how many times i swung, so i still would not have killed it and it may have probably followed me out of the darkness, i could not damage it, it was immune to my one and only offensive spell, my melee was naturally poor as a caster and i had no ranged weapon nor ranged skill anyway to help with the rolls for it, so this would not have helped that situation.

Then put your tail between your legs and RUN! With speed talents + coward speed if appropriate, nearly all early game monsters can be escaped. Depending on the monster, backing off long enough to take off your armor and true berserk might be an option.


But you wouldn't want to convert it if you are yourself a chaotic character, to use? And if you dont use your altar early and especially when you cant read, you cant id items and take a gamble with everything you equip? Again especially if you cant read for scrolls of uncursing, then there goes potions use too because you find as many bad potions as good and if they aren't ID'd, i found chugging random ones in times of need is 100% way to get yourself killed lol and **fair enough**

I almost always convert to neutral or lawful at the first opportunity. Yes, I often gamble with equipment, though, I'd prefer to think of it as a calculated risk. If I'm wearing a robe and find a studded leather armor, I know there's about a 95% chance that the studded leather is better, even cursed. So I'd probably take that bet. If it's clothes or something, I'll definitely pass. For weapons, if I think I have a decent upgrade (dagger to orcish spear, say), then I'll gamble, or I'll at least use a merchant to see which ones are most valuable. Otherwise, I'd rather wait until I find a ratling fencer to ID all of my weapons for me. I'll can zap my wands in the wilderness to see what they do. Some items you can ID by weight or material alone. And if you get really stuck, you can always sacrifice your prayers and get your deity to destroy all of your worn equipment. Randomly drinking potions is usually a bad idea, IMHO. The only time I'd do it is if it's basically the choice between that or death--if I'm poisoned by pit vipers early on and have no better options, I'll drink some potions and hope one of them is cure poison. Other than that, it's not worth the risk.


I also read converting altars is a dangerous practice, sacrificing on them may change your alignment instead, you may be pleasing that god instead and angering yours and a few other things, definitely not worth the risk, as seen here there's already enough potentially retarded RnG to get you killed.

It's safe enough if you use a large amount of gold to convert the altar. Converting altars is much less risky than using chaotic ones. Converting an altar using a live sacrifice or a non-gold item (unless it's an artifact or something) is quite risky.


How exactly can you guarantee that? There is a scripted reply from Tywat Pare concerning another being killing Kranach. Outside of pets doing that there is only one way this (someone else doing the last kill) - if a true neutral monster entered the wilderness square, decided to attack Kranach and successfully killed him. Taking into account the fact that Kranach is relatively tough among early game monsters (remember, xp level 6), you have to put a ton of effort in order to pull this.

A stray missile from one of the other monsters could also kill him, I guess. I can't say I've ever had this happen before though.

[Blasphemous]

You can easily convert C altar with an N character.
Just sac the first 1-2 non-chaotic monsters on it.
The neutral deity will protest that it doesn't like its creatures sacced but just ignore it, it's a minor piety penalty.
It works for me every time and I don't remember the last time I had it go wrong (as in change my alignment instead).
If you are NC or very low level N-, there is a chance you get converted instead but at that stage in the game I will simply ignore C altars entirely, it's not like you need them immediately.
Being N- or higher virtually makes converting C altars to N a non-issue.
Whips are very common and work very well for characters <lvl10 and even past lvl 10 so you can first switch your alignment from C to N and then switch the altar's alignment.
Just going to neutral is enough to guarantee no risks of being sacrificed when dealing with non-chaotic altars.
No creatures in the game can sacrifice a neutral character standing on a neutral altar or lawful char standing on a lawful altar.
Part of the reason I don't ever play chaotic chars unless I'm going with a CK or for an ultra, which sort of force me to be C for a prolonged period of time, whether I like it or not.

[TheCableGuy]

I occurs to me that much of the hassle with Kranach can be corrected by simply making his corpse a 100% drop
And make Tywat Pare require his corpse as requirement for the reward.

I know that it might of been made that way specifically to make it less easy for Pet classes
But it shouldn't be that one class should be singled out to make an already difficult fight harder.

Damn it. I Played a Bard who was out to kill Kranach but before I could even see him,
I was surrounded by Mobs and my pet instantly ignored them ad when straight to Kranach.
I couldn't even hack my way towards him to get so much as a hit on him (had no spells)
before my pet killed him. I couldn't even call off my pet because the way pets are programmed.
It ignored me when I told it to attack a bandit and it kept attacking as long as I was under attack.

[Dogbreath]

His corpse already drops 100% of the time...

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Seriously, this thread's level of crybabery is off the charts. In ADOM, if you are careful, you can run away from pretty much everything (including early-game WMoPC's), there are plenty of places to go and you can always come back later with more resources. And there are a lot of resources that can let you deal with a WMoPC not too far into the game: jelly slaying ammo, book of foo bolt, disabling wands/potions, wand of teleport to the stairs (guaranteed), acid spit, altar sacrifice, thrown PoCC, or just becoming a bit stronger as early-game WMoPCs are not such formidable opponents.

ADOM is a particularly winnable roguelike because of its nonlinearity (you can do most stuff in any order and if a dungeon is difficult, you can go to another one and return later) and the sheer amount of resources you can get (contrary to minimalistic roguelikes with restricted inventories à la Brogue, you can be a walking Swiss army knife and literally every problem in the game can be solved with more loot).

The majority of newfangled roguelikes are more luck-based than ADOM, precisely because they tend to have only one dungeon and be more minimalistic in terms of the resources you can use.

The only complaint I agree with is that the thing about pets not counting for the Kranach quest is lame. If an early-game character is clever enough to use a pet to kill Kranach I think that's great, and it's not like the quest reward could unbalance anything anyway.

[Dogbreath]

Seriously, this thread's level of crybabery is off the charts.

*nods* It's like we say here in Japan, "the butthurt is strong with this one."

Seriously. I play Spelunky pretty regularly, and that game is many, many times harder than ADOM but still enjoyable. ADOM is pretty consistently winnable if winning is what you're after - just roll a Dwarf Paladin and play carefully. I just like playing it for interesting R/C combinations now.

[Whiskiz]

And now, i was in the puppy cave, the cavernous level with high spawn rate, after already dropping 2 karmic lizards off a level above in 2 separate rooms, and a cat all the way at the top in a room once i finally gained enough hunger to get my full 109 speed back. After going back down from dropping said karmic lizard off then second lizard then cat all the way up on the first level, one after the other from the same cavernous level, and then going down below the cavernous level, clearing the rest of the cave and coming back up into the level, i get stuck in a long corridor between a 3rd karmic lizard (in the last 5min) and 2 cats the side i just came.

Either way it was get cursed or piss that stupid cat lord off or whatever, took one look at the situation and decided im done. Halfheartedly tried to fight my way out by trying to take out the cats even though that wasn't the exit way, figured run the karmic round a level below then go back up but more enemies just filled the corridor either way anyway from the high spawn rate. Let me guess, like the soultion to most other problems i either should have completely left the dungeon or not gone down that far, in fact maybe you should skip more of the game than you end up playing, you know, just to be safe, now that's skill right there. Knowing when to run (any time stupid RnG becomes stupid or anything gets remotely hard) and is a very rewarding solution to you being challenged.

Time to drop this crap and move on, ima look for my challenge elsewhere, im not into artificial challenge by stupid RnG, im sorry, bad luck, and unavoidable fail situations (yeah yeah tons of situations can be avoided and those are great, they don't nearly make up for the ones that aren't avoidable though, *imo.*) Hey it might be your guys thing, dunno why or how but im glad at least some people get to enjoy the roguelike openworld idea, even if its with this crap, better something than nothing i guess, but again ima move on to a proper challenging game with proper skill required.

Uninstalled and now i finally get to watch lets plays on it at least to finish it off - i didn't want to watch this being played before now for spoilers but that doesn't matter anymore. Anyway i guess i can't expect much more from a game with areas with poor design and so much procedural generation, unfortunate but meh, have fun with..... this...........

And thanks for the great feedback at least, game may not be that good but the communitys awesome, have a good one guys and see you round, thanks for putting up with me for a bit, peace :P

[Drifted]

Karmics should always be killed with ranged. Not lure them away and leave there like cats. Not hard to find 10 or so stones that are more than plenty enouggh to kill random karmic lizard or two at the beginning of the game.

[Silfir]

It's not artificial challenge - one of the skills ADOM tests is your ability to handle unexpected situations and find a solution where there appears to be none. It's a skill that requires a lot of experience and self-introspection to cultivate. It's not for everyone.

I mean, "proper challenging game with proper skill required"? Have you constructed a version of the world where you are the best at everything that matters, and anything you lose at wasn't doing it right? Must be a boring world to live in.

[GordonOverkill]

Well, there are many great games and in the end it's a good thing that different people have different tastes. Sorry for getting a little rude in between, Whiskiz. Guess it was just this "Whaaaaat, who dares to not love my favorite game!?!?!?!"-situation ;-)

[Al-Khwarizmi]

So you're a beginner that hasn't got past the very early game, and you die because you worry about not killing cats, which is an optional challenge that only has an effect in the very late game, and is designed for very experienced players because obviously worrying about that makes the game much more difficult. And this is supposed to be an unfair thing. Right.

By the way, the puppy cave is not a good dungeon to maximize the chances of not dying in the early game. I'm aware someone mentioned this dungeon, but the easy way to do the early game is going to the VD/DD, ID and/or CoC (apart from the new starting dungeon). Starting the game in the puppy cave, which has cavernous levels, ants and vaults, is quite a challenge.

Not that you couldn't have gotten some rocks and pummel the lizards with them from point black range, mind you.

[JellySlayer]

And now, i was in the puppy cave, the cavernous level with high spawn rate, after already dropping 2 karmic lizards off a level above in 2 separate rooms, and a cat all the way at the top in a room once i finally gained enough hunger to get my full 109 speed back. After going back down from dropping said karmic lizard off then second lizard then cat all the way up on the first level, one after the other from the same cavernous level, and then going down below the cavernous level, clearing the rest of the cave and coming back up into the level, i get stuck in a long corridor between a 3rd karmic lizard (in the last 5min) and 2 cats the side i just came.

Either way it was get cursed or piss that stupid cat lord off or whatever, took one look at the situation and decided im done. Halfheartedly tried to fight my way out by trying to take out the cats even though that wasn't the exit way, figured run the karmic round a level below then go back up but more enemies just filled the corridor either way anyway from the high spawn rate. Let me guess, like the soultion to most other problems i either should have completely left the dungeon or not gone down that far, in fact maybe you should skip more of the game than you end up playing, you know, just to be safe, now that's skill right there. Knowing when to run (any time stupid RnG becomes stupid or anything gets remotely hard) and is a very rewarding solution to you being challenged.

You cleared the entire lesser vault and didn't find a single bow + arrow or rock to kill the karmic lizards with? And you didn't grab any rocks from the ant level for extra missiles? Never found a spear trap for a few thrown spears? Missiles are very, very important in ADOM. Regardless of what kind of character you are playing, you need to be at least minimally proficient in some missiles. There are many monsters that are too dangerous/annoying to fight in melee range. For the cats, you can just kill them. The cat lord is an optional endgame quest. No need to worry about it at this point.

[mjkittredge]

Like the SMC, Puppy Cave is a challenge for experienced players. I don't know if you mentioned what your race class combo was, starsign, dv/pv, weapon ect, but it would seem you were not adequately prepared or strong enough to take on the optional area. Even the best and most experienced players die in there sometimes. I would recommend playing it safe until you become more experienced and knowledgeable.

No one said this game would be fair or easy. That's why we love it, getting a break from games where you die, resurrect, and continue at the checkpoint with minimal or no consequences. Not here, we play for all the marbles every time. It's deadly dangerous, and the weight of consequences makes it more exciting.

Take your lumps, learn, and do better next time. I think you'll appreciate your successes more with a tough, mean game that has no mercy.

[adom-admin]

I have a pet that ends up killing karnach the raider, for the quest and am then not acknowledged as the slayer to receive the reward, because coding that in would be too smart.


Can you please describe the response of the sheriff when this happened? As coded the response should have been (when talking to him after your pet slew Kranach):

I've been told that Kranach was slaughtered by someone else.
(more)

But unfortunately, it wasn't you...
(more)

Try to be faster in future quests.

At least that's what the code says. And what happened in my game. So IMHO - before calling the game stupid or its coders stupid please let's see if you misread the text or if there is some other explanation for what you experienced.

[adom-admin]

The worst thing so far? since said run-in with a pet on karnach, seriously the next 4 games (***so far***) i have farmed the fuckin forest outside of town after picking the quest up from like level 2 until i am no longer elgibile for the quest (around level 6) using tons of food, making it dangerous and getting shit rusted from raining etc etc and have not, seen him, one time, in those hundreds, and hundreds, of turns..................... Plenty of bandit run-ins, plenty of bear fights even wizards jackals and dogs, what is even the point of having the fucking quest if the chance to do it is what 0.05%?

What other quests are so stupid you won't get them 99% of the time? it'd be great to know before wasting a life/time/character on said quests later on down the track, that would seriously, be stupid...


Actually internally - once the raider quest has been activated - there is a 25% chance to encounter Kranach whenever a wilderness encounter happens (and you are not yet too experienced). Thus missing him four games in a row after dozens of encounters (I assume - or did you advance past experience level 6 early on? Then he disappears) is about as likely as winning the lottery. Congratulations. That's then the very definition of randomness.

I could consider to increase the likelihood of encountering Kranach over time but I strongly believe in more randomness, especially as the quest is in no way essential.

[adom-admin]

I occurs to me that much of the hassle with Kranach can be corrected by simply making his corpse a 100% drop


The corpse drop probability BTW is 100%.

[adom-admin]

How exactly can you guarantee that? There is a scripted reply from Tywat Pare concerning another being killing Kranach. Outside of pets doing that there is only one way this (someone else doing the last kill) - if a true neutral monster entered the wilderness square, decided to attack Kranach and successfully killed him. Taking into account the fact that Kranach is relatively tough among early game monsters (remember, xp level 6), you have to put a ton of effort in order to pull this.

All this lets me to believe that pet kills were deliberately added by TB as a quest ending action which denies the reward.


Absolutely. It's totally intentionally and part of the little bit of characterization with various of the NPCs. I envision Tywatt Pare as a tough, no-nonsense kind of stern guy and thus he is pretty picky about rewarding people. Maybe over picky, but it's totally intentional. The world is not just and that's part of the lessen ;-)


Don't get me wrong, I fully believe the design of this particular mechanic is pretty silly (especially animal pets are mostly mindless beasts that are ordered around; while necromantic slaves are simply the tools/weapons of their master). Level 6 and stealth 5k xp limit is borderline buggy behavior.

Why do you consider this as borderline buggy? It's also pretty intentional. Maybe there could be some textual hint once you pass the limit but you learn about this after talking to the sheriff once later on. I don't beliebe too much in pushing everything into your face. And spending an eternity trying to find Kranach would be considered kind of dysfunctional in real life, too, wouldn't it? So why not do something else after a while? But maybe that's just me ;-)

[adom-admin]

I actually happen to agree with the claim that this game is "Needlessly Stupid."
But not so much that one about it being so poorly programmed.
Yeah, Stupid things tend to happen.... Often.... And not always your fault.
Like getting stuck in a Corridor in the Small Cave with (seemingly) endlessly
spawning monsters coming from both ends and your lvl seemingly Skyrocketing with each kill....

Can't see this as a prime problem. It happens occasionally, yes. And has been lessened over the past couple of versions.


Or getting ambushed at lvl 1 in the Wilderness taking 1 step out of Terinyo...

Sounds like perfectly reasonable for me. I mean: If you are looking for pickings, why wouldn't you lurk near to a settlement and ambush especially weak/unexperienced appearing wanderers? And it also doesn't happen all the time. That's the nature of randomness.



Frankly, this game is a outlet for the Masochist in us all.
It needs a slight tweaking in the programming and maybe a little fine tuning of a couple of quests.
But otherwise a perfectly enjoyable waste of time.

:-) You will be happy to hear that starting with ADOM R51 ADOM Deluxe now contains a set of customization options. You can lessen hunger and corruption, increase or decrease the deadliness of monsters, etc. and thus play a truly personalized game. It even has a story mode which allows you to save and restore your characters. All this in an attempt to make different types of players happy, too.

They'll just be using a different highscore list than the core roguelike games and their scores will be penalized for reducing the difficulty level (and increased for upping it).

Seems like a good solution to me. Try it! ADOM is evolving thanks due to player feedback and every comment helps in some way.

[_Ln_]

Why do you consider this as borderline buggy? It's also pretty intentional. Maybe there could be some textual hint once you pass the limit but you learn about this after talking to the sheriff once later on. I don't beliebe too much in pushing everything into your face. And spending an eternity trying to find Kranach would be considered kind of dysfunctional in real life, too, wouldn't it? So why not do something else after a while? But maybe that's just me ;-)

I meant this one of course -- http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=3373
And you also seem to think it is buggy! :D

[GordonOverkill]

"The Fourth" meets Kranach as his third encounter, avoids the battle by misklicking and meets him again as his fourth encounter. After 522 turns and almost 7 days the quest is finished successfully.


Just by the way, this guy just left the Drakalor Chain after successfully closing the ChAoS gAtE. Fiiiiinally after all those years my first Candle-born winner :-) "The First" did quite well, too. Died to Nuurag Vaarn a few weeks ago.

[auricbond]

I think it's an interesting question as to how luck versus skill based the game is. I think early game survival is the most luck based. Once you build up your id'd equipment your options for escaping danger open up, and its your experience with the game that saves your skin. That's not to say that it can't occasionally throw unwinnable situations at you, but even then you can argue that you should have waited in an easier dungeon until you had better means.

I do call bullshit on the black altars though. I'm not even sure if it relies on your own LOS or theirs. I've survived single turns on black altars when an enemy appeared in my view, but I once lost a promising character doing a mass pick-up off of the altar while nothing was in view only to be greeted by a game over screen. Locked doors aren't always an answer either as some enemies can smash them. Should it be more 'fair' or is this just a price of being chaotic?

Perhaps the most random element for me is the survival of characters that start with low pv. Now I actually prefer high dv to high pv if I had to choose one, but I know the value of pv on the early game. Mere giant rats and orcs can take off half health and stun your 1 pv mindcrafter, and what if the rng refuses to throw some decent pv items your way? I don't view it as a challenge so much as a lottery.

[Silfir]

An important tool to help survive the initial phase of low PV is true berserking - if you can't avoid damage entirely, make sure the fights are over quickly. It's also important to milk ranged combat for all it's worth, as well as any abilities the character does have. There's an element of luck to the very earliest phase of the game with low-PV characters, as you described, but the rest is 99% skill.

[divij]

i remember a game...i was in the air temple and yuuglaash summoned ghost kings on my ass....i was a drakeling elementalist so i got the f*** out of there. i couldnt ignore the lvl since i needed the air orb and i couldnt tp to kite them around. 2 of them had gotten track of me e1 though i was invis. i had the RCT (raven) which was trained to lvl 7 with strong thrower talent acquired...but still i couldnt connect on those damn GKs and i knew that 1 hit from them would kill me np. so i remembered i had a RoDs and wished for speed!! killed yuuglaash and went str8 to the downstairs. by the time i came up i was strong enuf to handle them.....
moral of the story : Winning adom is winning the early game since mid-to-late game depends entirely on your skill lvl! early game the 1st door could be trapped and you die or the 1st room could be mixed tension room or rats could give you fever...you never know

[Soirana]

i couldnt ignore the lvl since i needed the air orb...
by the time i came up i was strong enuf to handle them.....

For example I think one can go down level on boozed fireballs in fire temple, kill grues on d48 and then be able to handle air temple.

Most of unsurvivable situations I've ever seen comes too some sort of strategic decision/risk management option sometime before. With good and patient [although ultimately boring] play and gameplan ~99% chars could win.
[if one gets few levels via encounters/bandit village - traps are moistly not issue, if one darts for Jharod sickness is passably dealable and so on]

[mjz15]

For the unskilled player, dying over and over again to situations you can't handle can definately FEEL like having bad luck, All, The, Fucking, Time.

Here's an example. I've played Backgammon against computers for some time, and sometimes it feels like the computer gets lucky rolls all the time. In fact, all Backgammon software designers get regularly accused of rigging the program so that the computer gets lucky rolls. The truth is of course that none of these programs are rigged. There is always an element of luck in Backgammon, but in the long run an experienced player will always beat an inexperienced player, simply because they are more skilled. To the unskilled player it seems like bad luck, but this is because he doesn't know what he is doing wrong, or that he doesn't even realize he is doing ANYTHING wrong in the first place.

The same can be said for ADOM. Unskilled players will constantly die, and it will feel unfair, it will feel like RNG threw something at you that you simply couldn't handle, and it happens over, and over, and over again, but a lot of these situations could be handled with more skill and knowledge. If you don't realize that you're doing ANYTHING wrong, it feels like Big Bad RNG is out to get you and you never get a lucky break. How many times have I scoffed the game sourly when died to something that seemed ridiculously unlucky, and afterwards see that I somehow did have the "You are lucky" intrinsic.

To make a long story short: reason for failure in ANY type of game that is not 100% luck based should always be sought in yourself, not in the game itself.