I keep on dying in early-mid game and I'm lost

[H.G.Scout]

hello, I'm a new forum user who only had like 300 deaths. I'm not skilled enough to try fancy classes so I usually stuck with drakeling/dark elf-paladin/elementalist, trying new things now and then,but after a certain point I keep on dying. when I start off I run to the lawentho-whatever and learn pick pocketing to become a guild member, and I try to finish off the raider lord quest, then try to open up the High Mountain Villiage. and after that I go for either missing carpenter(if I don't have healing), or necromancer(If I have light source), and then CoC. in between I become a member and learn detect traps, disarm traps, and lockpicking(if I have enough money left, which is usually never), as well as trying to pick up as much books as I can, kill the bandit lord guy to get the badge from the sheriff(if sorcerer), sacrifice mobs if there's an altar available. I try to go for spear-shield if possible, if not sword-spear. if I reach dwarftown I train my learning primarily and any other stat that's low by dumping 1000 golds each. and I give up the golden sword you get from the arena(if elementalist) to learn tactics thingy from the old fighter guy in the dwarftown tavern. after that I ask the big dwarf guy about the gates and get a quest, and I'm lost and get's killed. that's the farthest I've got, and I'm lost(was about level 13~15 at that point). also some good looking runs(in my perspective, all of them elementalist) ended by entering a strange temple on the top left and getting mauled by the super clawbugs(those things punched through my invisibility!).

I'm lost. help!

[blunk]

Hi.

I'll try with some advice ...
PC=Puppy cave
VD=Village dungeon heal/herb quest


I try to finish off the raider lord quest
I've never tried raider lord in a looong time, it used to kill me or get me starving. I don't think it's worth it.

If you go through smc/ud you are probably lvl 10+ then you can add some lvls for pc and vd. Try to do both.
SMC/ud is very much worth it and fun but I find it very difficult without healing skill/candle.
If you don't do smc do PC until ants, if ants are too difficult, leave and do a couple of lvls in VD and then go back to pc.

Beware of mixed vaults/tension rooms, they often have monsters that are higher danger than for example gnoll vaults (example last lvl of PC).

necromancer(If I have light source)
He's an evil druid, light source helps but isn't a must.


in between I become a member and learn detect traps, disarm traps, and lockpicking
If you have trouble around dwarf town these are not a priority, detect traps can be convenient but not a must.


I try to go for spear-shield if possible, if not sword-spear.
Yes the spear DV bonus is nice, but I find more pv from armor is far more important the 20 first lvls.


if I reach dwarftown I train my learning primarily and any other stat that's low by dumping 1000 golds each
I would recommend you save money for crowning instead.


I give up the golden sword
Thats good, tactics and backstab are more useful.


ended by entering a strange temple on the top left and getting mauled by the super clawbugs
Claw bug temple is very dangerous if you're not very sure what/how to do that.
Since you've done several dwarf quests I understand you've been able to get past the enchanted forest.
Reward for this is a wand of fireballs.
With this much pv and the wand you should probably be able to do the pyramid, it's available between lvl 13-16.


after that I ask the big dwarf guy about the gates and get a quest
I guess you ask about portal, if so he means a graveyard that opens up on map now that you've asked, it a few east and all south from "lawentho-whatever".
Make sure you have enough dv/pv there (no extremes needed though) because some undead drain stats.

Before or after graveyard you can continue in coc until you see khelavaster.

/blunk

PS. please try use more punctuation, wall of text is tedious to read. DS.

[Blasphemous]

More than places visited and quests done, the important stuff is equipment and attributes, including PV/DV and HP/PP.
Graveyard is comfortable with 20 PV and around the same amount of DV on normal-aggressive tactical setting.
This gives you enough resistance to drain attacks by the undead.
Nonnak shouldn't be approached without double cold resistance or immunity (which is guaranteed) and this usually means Pyramid first, Griffyard second.
Pyramid with 15+ PV, decent melee weapon, ~80-100 HP and some undead slayers is relatively comfortable, especially with means of trap detection but the top room can be occasionally nasty.
Here's where the wand of fireballs is your friend.
This brings us to another conclusion - do the dwarven quests first and get the rewards.
It's better to wait with arena championship until Thrundarr actually asks you to become a champion.
Kill two birds with one stone.
Using gold for precrown is a poor choice. You're better off digging 2-3 tunnels on a level with an altar and use live-sac exclusively to get a precrown.
Gold at this stage of the game is more difficult to get in large quantities and it's more quickly spent on stuff in shops that might still be better than whatever you've found so far.
Later on, when you slay your first batch of ancient dragons, there will be more gold than is necessary.
Stay away from bug temple, it's a deadly place even for late game characters.
Use herbs and get those stats to their potentials asap. The benefits are immediately tangible.
At the early stage of the game, PV matters most. Later on DV becomes more important as more monsters tend to ignore pv or hit really hard.
Good melee attack is important early too, but is usually harder to get than armor.
So make sure you know how missiles work, they are great life savers early on.
Source of light is unnecessary but is *very* useful in DD and recommended especially for chars with small damage output - once critically or severely wounded, the druid will most likely panic and run.
Good luck finding him in the dark and not bumping into any cats.

[H.G.Scout]

Hi.

I'll try with some advice ...
PC=Puppy cave
VD=Village dungeon heal/herb quest


I've never tried raider lord in a looong time, it used to kill me or get me starving. I don't think it's worth it.

If you go through smc/ud you are probably lvl 10+ then you can add some lvls for pc and vd. Try to do both.
SMC/ud is very much worth it and fun but I find it very difficult without healing skill/candle.
If you don't do smc do PC until ants, if ants are too difficult, leave and do a couple of lvls in VD and then go back to pc.

Beware of mixed vaults/tension rooms, they often have monsters that are higher danger than for example gnoll vaults (example last lvl of PC).

He's an evil druid, light source helps but isn't a must.


If you have trouble around dwarf town these are not a priority, detect traps can be convenient but not a must.


Yes the spear DV bonus is nice, but I find more pv from armor is far more important the 20 first lvls.


I would recommend you save money for crowning instead.


Thats good, tactics and backstab are more useful.


Claw bug temple is very dangerous if you're not very sure what/how to do that.
Since you've done several dwarf quests I understand you've been able to get past the enchanted forest.
Reward for this is a wand of fireballs.
With this much pv and the wand you should probably be able to do the pyramid, it's available between lvl 13-16.


I guess you ask about portal, if so he means a graveyard that opens up on map now that you've asked, it a few east and all south from "lawentho-whatever".
Make sure you have enough dv/pv there (no extremes needed though) because some undead drain stats.

Before or after graveyard you can continue in coc until you see khelavaster.

/blunk

PS. please try use more punctuation, wall of text is tedious to read. DS.

I usually grab 2 large rathios and go from there. First kill will be either jackals\dogs\hobgoblins, and I try to pick up the raiders corpse if I can. I also kill the bandit lord guy in the lawenthohill to get the badge from the sheriff(if dark elf) to become neautral and counter chaos from pickpocketing.

I also dont know what those other skills are for. First aid I can grind if I have amulet and if dark elf, but these ones...
haggling. Is this automatic?
smithing
bridge building
and a few more i forgot.

[H.G.Scout]

Hoow do I use herbs? They are so rare, I only see them at the big room, and very rarely find them in anywhere else.
What do dwarf quests do anyway? I know doing it all opens the lower level of coc...

[Dlightfull]

Hoow do I use herbs? They are so rare, I only see them at the big room, and very rarely find them in anywhere else.
What do dwarf quests do anyway? I know doing it all opens the lower level of coc...

Mate, all these questions you ask will make you very spoiled. Try to understand yourself, it's the most beautiful part of this game. I went the spoiled route myself and i tell you i wish i could forget everything i know and start from scratch without spoiling myself.

But if you insist in spoiling yourself, there is a thread (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php/12314-Beginner-information), in this forum, for beginners, there are links to both wiki and improved guidebook, both of which contain answers the majority of the questions you might have about the game.

[Cactus]

Judging from your original post, you seem to do a lot of things right. I think it would help if you describe your deaths (where, to which monsters, under what circumstances) to get specific help. Because the point in the game you describe (i.e. doing Thrundarr's quests/pre-pyramid) should usually not be a very critical one (apart from dangerous locations such as the dwarven halls). So apart from the one time you checked out the bug temple, how did you die?

[blunk]

You should ask Thrundarr "quest" same that gives portal quest when you ask "portal".
He will give you one quest at a time. One of these will be for arena so don't do it before you get it from him (otherwise you'll get some other task to do).

Each herb have different function and yes mainly ppl farm it in bigroom but sometimes they spawn in other convenient places.
It's not a priority to farm tons but some is very good to have.
Use great identify or check wiki for more info on what they do.

Haggling is considered very useless skill.
Smithing is a bit advanced (you need a lot of heavy tools, anvil, hammer, forge and ore), I've never bothered yet.
Bridge building is ... tedious, wand of cold or frost/nether bolt have almost same function. I'd say, don't bother.

[H.G.Scout]

Mate, all these questions you ask will make you very spoiled. Try to understand yourself, it's the most beautiful part of this game. I went the spoiled route myself and i tell you i wish i could forget everything i know and start from scratch without spoiling myself.

But if you insist in spoiling yourself, there is a thread (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php/12314-Beginner-information), in this forum, for beginners, there are links to both wiki and improved guidebook, both of which contain answers the majority of the questions you might have about the game.
Well, I guess if that's the fun of it, I won't spoiler myself. more deaths to come though. and having 'FUN'. you know, the dwarf fortress type of 'fun'.


Judging from your original post, you seem to do a lot of things right. I think it would help if you describe your deaths (where, to which monsters, under what circumstances) to get specific help. Because the point in the game you describe (i.e. doing Thrundarr's quests/pre-pyramid) should usually not be a very critical one (apart from dangerous locations such as the dwarven halls). So apart from the one time you checked out the bug temple, how did you die?
1. running through small cave to go to HMV at lv.11ish DE elementalist. drank from a pool to get a wish so wished for rings of regen. later in that dungeon hueg hidden room opened on me when I searched a dead end. lots of jellies, but I had charged and all the mp perks so I had like 110 mp. thought I could take it. turns out, I forgot to take off the alignment changing amulet. while sick. while poisoned. what's more infuriating is taht I could have ignored and ran away since the room right behind that corridor had the stairs that went down. and I knew that I had to run through the small cave as soon as possible. I don't know why I stood and fight. but I could have reached 100 first aid if I lived long enough!

2. cornered at the cavern level at the puppy cave. lots of my paladin runs end here.

3. rust monster. dammit, I should have handed over the dagger.

4. died at the front of the arena. was ambushed by mobs after a hard fight. that damn arena competent poisoned me. I really don't know how to deal with poison except for first aid.

5. OMGGREATERCLAWBUGASDFGHJKL

6. same as above.

7. same as above.(I really don't learn much)

8. used a 'wand of 'power(?)'. it reflected off the wall that was like 3 tiles away from me. it instakilled my elementalist who was at 38 health, struck by bolt of energy.

9. died to kranich due to encountering him too early.

10. *random assassin enemy poison*

11. had a good run with eating blink dog corpse. tried to find out a way through the level 2 of assasin guild cave but starved to death.

12. random stones hurled at me at HMV. seriously. what the f

that covers about most runs that manages to go far enough to reach CoC.

[Cactus]

Nice, I think that is enough info to identify some key improvements:

Try to get poison resistance (by eating a spider corpse) and be very alarmed if you get poisoned before having the resistance. Have First Aid raised and trained not only but for this situation in particular and use it after every poison damage. Stay away from further fights (e.g. go up a dungeon level) until the poison is gone. If VD:4 is in reach, visit Jharod for healing. Try to seek spiders whenever you see webs or hear slurping sounds. You want to get the resistance asap from the easier spiders before meeting tarantulas/assassins/yellow oozes. Once the resistance is installed, poison will wear off much faster. You'll still have to be careful with multiple hits since the effects stack.

Use Coward mode, unless you want to hit something.

Only accept the Kranach quest if you like to meet him. If not (yet), simply don't talk to the sheriff.

Be quick when crossing the cavernous level. Leave your heavy stuff on the PC:4 downstairs. Your priority is to find the downstairs, so keep moving in Coward mode and try to not fight easy monsters. For each rat or kobold you slay, something nasty can be generated. If you fight, stay close to the stairs and you can't get cornered. You can usually decide to either drag monsters out of the level, or flee and leave them. If you sense a pious aura, try to locate the altar.

If a Stone Giant Lord is generated in the HMV, it is usually not wise to engage it. Use Coward mode and a shield (no twohanders) and seek refuge in the shop. Since the Giant will stop to throw stones you can keep a few tiles distance even without speed advantage. Pick up the next best item, so Leggot will block the entrance. Spend some time to buy and sell while regenerating. When you leave the shop, the giant will usually have wandered somewhere else so you can head for the stairs.

Don't use pools early in the game. There are too many ways it can kill you. Dooming is just one way, but water snakes may already be enough.

Be aware of messages. If you feel excited, it means a vault is in one of the four corners of the level (such as the jelly vault you mentioned). Explore the rest of the level (stairs), then peek into the vault and decide if you want to clear it or leave it immediately and come back later. Mixed vaults are the hardest type as far as UD levels are concerned.

[Dlightfull]

Don't use pools early in the game. There are too many ways it can kill you. Dooming is just one way, but water snakes may already be enough.



I strongly disagree with this one. Pools are better used in the early game, if at all. Since you can just make another char if you screw things up royally. But if you do get lucky, you can ease your life BIG TIME, for example getting perma invisibility makes the game a lot easier, since you can pick up those fights with less of a hassle. You can also get some nice resistances as well.

I also noticed that i usually get a lot of good stuff early in the game from pools, compared to late sipping. Pools also dry up quickly in the early game. At least that's what i noticed in my games.

[Blasphemous]

1) SMC is fine until char lvl 6. Preferably don't get to level 6 there and just find the staircase. Tension rooms in SMC quickly raise your level.
2) Cavernous levels are dangerous in general due to much higher monster generation rate. Try to get to the down staircase asap and return later if you have ~12-15 PV.
3) Easier way is to throw stuff at them until they calm down, iron stuff is common. Using offensive wands works too, rust monsters have no resistances. They are also fairly slow so you can outrun them.
4) It's a good habit to clear the level around arena to only leave the non-hostile ratlings. Monsters in arena are pretty high leveled so it's best to complete arena quest later, when Thrundarr asks you to do so.
5, 6, 7) Avoid bug temple entirely. Don't even go there at level 20 unless you REALLY know what you are doing. Bugs are deadly, super fast, ignore PV and land multiple attacks. To get the rewards from bug temple, you'd be forced to kill MANY bugs, sometimes while being surrounded by them. This is tough and dangerous stuff and it's definitely out of your league, or for that matter - out of any early-mid game character's league. Wizards with 32+ willpower and high DV can hope to clear it with some care but otherwise you need powerful melee attack and very good chance to hit - something you only get later in the game. Also you need lots of speed and it's best to have seven league boots too.
8) That's a wand of magic missiles and it's the common cause of many deaths. The bolt bounces if cast against the wall and will usually hit your char. If it hits once, consider yourself lucky since it's possible to survive, though not with low hp. The deadly part is when you cast it between two walls with you in the middle - you will get hit many times and inevitably die.
9) Forget kranach. This quest is more dangerous than it's worth it. I never do it, though occaionally the reward might allow you to buy something in the black market. It's still not worth it in my opinion and the quest doesn't have any other consequences if you skip it.
10) Poison can be deadly in the early game. Try to get a corpse of poisoning monster and eat it. Typically a spider corpse works. Eating it has a high chance of granting poison resistance. When you face a monster with poison attack, switch to coward mode and try to shoot it or cast a spell. With coward's DV bonus they should miss virtually all of their hits. Potions of cure poison are fairly common as well - keep them around. Keep your eyes open for herbs - alraunia antidote cures poisoning when eaten.
11) There's really nothing I could say about preventing starvation. The general rule is that you should always have something to eat with you. If you don't then drop whatever you're doing and go to Terrinyo and buy some more. Try to predict how long you will last on a given amount of food before you descend deep into a dungeon. Also, consider buying cooked lizards from ratling merchants around arena. Cooked lizards have satiation value roughly equal to large ration, they are cheap and weigh a fraction of a large ration. You can usually buy between 40-100 cooked lizards, 5 gold a piece. They should keep you well fed for a long time.
12) HMV has a high chance of generating stone giants and stone giant lords. They have a big view radius and will often throw rocks at the PC from outside of your line of sight. When first arriving in HMV, set your tactics to coward and if you have shields, wield them in both hands. Once you find out if there are giants/giant lords in HMV, you can try to dispatch them with wands, spells or giant slaying missiles if you happened to find those. You can also try to maneuver around the shop keeper. If done right, a stone giant standing in the shop entrance will be attacked by the shopkeeper if you pick up an item in the shop - but only if you didn't attack the giant yet in any way. Sometimes giants can be tricked into throwing rocks at you and hitting Hawkslayer instead. He will usually proceed to mutilate said giant and will in the process clear your path.

[Cactus]

I strongly disagree with this one. Pools are better used in the early game, if at all. Since you can just make another char if you screw things up royally...

Ok, but that means we just have a fundamentally different approach to playing a roguelike. If I have rolled a character, looked at him and decided to play him, from the moment I take the first step towards Terinyo keeping him alive is the single most important thing for me. :)

[Blasphemous]

I agree pools should be ignored completely in the early game.
They do more harm than good when you can't counter some of the nastiest consequences of a bad pool sip.
Sure, a wish in the early game is very nice but you might very well get dooming or sickness or both and that usually means you will die very soon.
I usually sip from pools once some conditions have been met:

a) I have a nearby coaligned altar and enough piety for the deity to be very close.
At this point, saccing one gold piece will remove any dooming and cursing and grant luck+fate, if they have been lost while pool sipping.
b) I have a spare blink dog corpse or an amulet/ring of teleport control. Losing teleport control and gaining teleportitis is one of the worst things that can happen to you while sipping from a pool.
c) I don't have resistances to paralyzation/petrification/death rays. Getting those intrinsically is even better than getting a wish, since each of those intrinsics can save your life multiple times.
d) I really need a wish for some crucial item I was unable to get otherwise - seven league boots, amulet of life saving, red dragon scale mails or maybe potions of potential toughness if I'm really desperate.

[Dlightfull]

Ok, but that means we just have a fundamentally different approach to playing a roguelike. If I have rolled a character, looked at him and decided to play him, from the moment I take the first step towards Terinyo keeping him alive is the single most important thing for me. :)

That's true, i have a totally different approach :D. I run chars until one is lucky enough to get out of the early game, after that, i mutilate everything that comes in my view.

[Drifted]

I agree pools should be ignored completely in the early game.
They do more harm than good when you can't counter some of the nastiest consequences of a bad pool sip.
Sure, a wish in the early game is very nice but you might very well get dooming or sickness or both and that usually means you will die very soon.
I usually sip from pools once some conditions have been met:

a) I have a nearby coaligned altar and enough piety for the deity to be very close.
At this point, saccing one gold piece will remove any dooming and cursing and grant luck+fate, if they have been lost while pool sipping.
b) I have a spare blink dog corpse or an amulet/ring of teleport control. Losing teleport control and gaining teleportitis is one of the worst things that can happen to you while sipping from a pool.
c) I don't have resistances to paralyzation/petrification/death rays. Getting those intrinsically is even better than getting a wish, since each of those intrinsics can save your life multiple times.
d) I really need a wish for some crucial item I was unable to get otherwise - seven league boots, amulet of life saving, red dragon scale mails or maybe potions of potential toughness if I'm really desperate.

My seal of approval. Pretty much exactly my train of thought. Sometimes I might decide to drain pool(s) if game was already going badly from the get go. Just to see if game takes turn to better or I go down in blaze of glory (most likely surrounded by snakes, bleeding from ears, poisoned, sick, cursed and doomed).

[H.G.Scout]

Cripes, thanks for all these advices!

[mjz15]

You might want to check some Let's Play-videos on Youtube, for instance Silfir's highly instructive Hocus Pocus-series, or any of Gordon Overkill's series. That is, if you don't mind being heavily spoiled. But I think playing ADOM unspoiled and trying to finish it is somewhat comparable to trying to solve a Rubik's Cube all by yourself without outside help: down that path lies madness.

[magpie]

Pools are sucker bait in the early game. Don't use 'em unless you've got enough piety to pray away cursing/dooming.

Also! Perma-invis is great, BUT, if you get it before you've done the Arena quest, you won't be able to do the Arena quest unless you get lucky with a potion of visibility. So be warned. :)

[H.G.Scout]

You might want to check some Let's Play-videos on Youtube, for instance Silfir's highly instructive Hocus Pocus-series, or any of Gordon Overkill's series. That is, if you don't mind being heavily spoiled. But I think playing ADOM unspoiled and trying to finish it is somewhat comparable to trying to solve a Rubik's Cube all by yourself without outside help: down that path lies madness.

Like fun. In which is dwarf fortress brand of "FUN", right.
well, here I go again.
How do you guys even manage to do well with a non caster class anyway? They seem to lack firepower.

[magpie]

Like fun. In which is dwarf fortress brand of "FUN", right.
well, here I go again.
How do you guys even manage to do well with a non caster class anyway? They seem to lack firepower.

Archers have more firepower than almost any class, all the way through the game. There's a reason they are a top-tier class in ADoM.

And melee can be difficult to get going - they rely on Tactics more than other classes - but once they get some nice gear, they are brutal! Particularly Duellists, Barbarians and Assassins - although any class with good stuff can be very nasty.

[Luli]

I've managed to finish my first game about two months ago. If you don't mind being spoiled use everything you can (guidebook, wiki, etc.) to prepare for the most difficult tasks/opponents. But most important for me was to be really patient in dangerous situations. The following was what got me the first win:

- It's ok to run away in the middle of a fight. In this situation always "know" you can win. If you "think" you can win you'll often die, which happens sometimes even if you're sure you can win. Fighting yourself to death is almost always avoidable.
- ALWAYS (I mean EVERY turn) watch your HP when fighting unknown/nasty/rare monsters or NPC's, or vaults/tension rooms, no matter how easy you think they'll be (because you've already done it a few times and never died, but the day always comes...).
- If you get caught in a tight spot (surrounded, low HP, poisoned, sick, etc.), stop making moves. The game stops/freezes if you don't act (although many times we act as if it didn't), and many times this is the difference between life and death. Prepare yourself, check alternate ways of dealing with a situation. Virtually every item in the game might save your life, and a lot of them actually do.
- Being hasty is the death of many characters. Try to play slowly, always thinking twice about your next move.

[mjkittredge]

One of the keys to this game is being able to identify items or at least get a good idea if they are valuable or not. You can do this various ways.

-by trying it on, such as weapon or armor. could be cursed and get stuck on though
-by reading Identify scroll, blessed is better
-by selling it to a store and then checking it out later.
-by it's weight - usually lower weight or strange weight is higher quality materials
-by the appraising and Detect Item Status skills
-by the amount a vendor is willing to pay for it vs other items of the same type

If you do equip-ID an item and it's cursed (or even worse, trapped), there are various ways you can get rid of weapons and armor. Traps, certain monsters, certain scrolls, potions of holy water