Training Toughness over potential

[Scooter Fox]

I rolled a gray elven wizard with a really decent 13 To potential. The problem is, some hours later I'm level 23, ready to go to Tower of Eternal Flames and I'm stuck at that 13/13 To. I still have the Ice Queen's second quest to do and I have 2 potions of gain attributes but that will take me only to 17. Not cool. No potions of toughness in sight. I still haven't been to casino (obviously) and haven't tried to loot the underwater cave, but I don't have very high hopes anyway. Pools in Darkforge aren't even touched, but I'd rather not gamble there, I have some nice intrinsics I don't want to lose and Khelavaster is saved already.

Is there any other way to train Toughness? Is eating undead corpses reliable enough? (I don't want to lose too much alignment.) I tried training with Garth earlier, but 10k gold did nothing. If I give him, say, 50k, will it help? Or should I try Minotaur Maze? I've never been there before actually. :)

[pblack]

Minotaur maze is hard but rewards with 6 PoGA and 2 artifacts. Be careful thou since Minotaur Mages loooove to drain stats so you could do it all and come out of there worse than you entered. The minotaur emperor corpse also gives To, but it cuts your Wi pretty heavily (and corrupts). So I wouldn't do it with a mage without morgia (and possibly SoCC) to offset the difference later.

If your potential is at 13 I guess in later preleases you have to use PoGA. Unless you want to gamble with Potions of Exchange. Potions of balance are useful too if you do the math and can live with a few less points in Mana and dexterity probably (since you are an elf and probably has it as on of your higher stats).

I don't know if the chances of increasing To with undead corpses is decent after you hit the maximum potential. But a blessed amulet of balance woul help you to al least try without loosing too much alignment.

[Scooter Fox]

I was thinking about Minotaur Maze more for the emperor corpse, though I'm not sure if I'd be able to get 8 Willpower back.
EDIT: "not sure" because I have a severe shortage of morgia root herb patches, I think there's only one in UD after all of them somehow withered in CoC's Big Room.

[pblack]

The corpse is only the second best way to do it in the Maze. The PoGA are far more useful (and you get a random artifact along with the Axe, so that could be good as well). 8 is a guideline. As are +3 To. I never got this much before. I woud only eat it if you have the means to get the Wi back after since Wi is very important for you. More than an extra 3 To (which you could get from pretty common bone bracers)

[sweetnothing]

If your potential is at 13 I guess in later preleases you have to use PoGA.

Oh no, potions of potential stuff are/will be removed?!

[JellySlayer]

If you're willing to scum the wilderness for a bit, I think that swamp hydra corpses still train To above potential. Maybe hill orcs too, if you eat enough of them.

[pblack]

No, no.

I didn't say that. What I mean is that to actually raise your stats at this point, you are better off relying on the guaranteed PoGA's. If you have potions of potential stats, by all means, use them and train the stat before drinking the PoGAs

[blunk]

Wight corpses are fairly reliable at lower T scores and it raises your pot if maxed, don't know about corpse status but usually blessed is better in this game.
I recommend staying out of mino maze unless your up to a really tedious task, that place is a maze *duh* .

Other options are to grind (I've had good track record with high king cavernous levels) or potion dipping (but you may want to save that for rings).

[sweetnothing]

Thanks for clarification, pblack

[Blasphemous]

Corpse status doesn't seem to matter, at least for undead that grant toughness or increase its potential.
It's a problem for L chars though and to an extent also to N due to significant alignment drop, but blessed amulets of balance sort of remedy that.

[Scooter Fox]

Well, in the end I went to Minotaur Maze. Not very fun, but with those 6 PoGAs and one potion of toughness that I found there I'm now at 25. Thanks guys.

[blunk]

Corpse status doesn't seem to matter, at least for undead that grant toughness or increase its potential.
It's a problem for L chars though and to an extent also to N due to significant alignment drop, but blessed amulets of balance sort of remedy that.

It can be a little problem but wearing an amulet of L to regain that align drop isn't that much hassle simply because the amount of wight corpses found aren't that high even with food preservation.

[sylph]

The minotaur maze is really broken these days isn't it? The most boring area in the game is also the most rewarding...

[pblack]

The minotaur maze is really broken these days isn't it? The most boring area in the game is also the most rewarding...

Kind of...

Maybe it was a little too much to add that extra random artifact on top of the improved AotME. But if you don't have the necessary resistances and means to deal with it it is still very punishing (stat-drain wise). The fact that it is boring is a non-issue to me. It is a Maze after all...

[Soirana]

If you're willing to scum the wilderness for a bit, I think that swamp hydra corpses still train To above potential.
I am not sure if swamp hydras train To even bellow To potential in latest versions.

[auricbond]

I once lost many days off of the game clock on the way UP from the maze-bottom after defeating the emperor, I kept going around in circles for some reason. If the build is right and I don't have some magic mapping scrolls I'll even try the bug temple first, even though it's generally far more dangerous.

[mjkittredge]

Specters, wights, vampires, all drop nice toughness increasing corpses that can get you over 25 toughness. Use arrows/quarrels & weapons with the "of hunting" suffix if you have them. The graveyard level in the CoC keeps generating more reliably if you want to scum for them. And various Liches can summon more (I forget if those summoned ones still drop corpses or not).

To counteract the alignment drop, wear the blessed amulet of order, and give food/money to beggars & heal pets to bring it back up.

[Blasphemous]

To counteract the alignment drop, wear the blessed amulet of order, and give food/money to beggars & heal pets to bring it back up.

Sorry but you are wrong. Amulet of order is a very poor counter for alignment drop due to eating undead corpses.
It provides a constant shift towards L+ (by a very small amount each ~2 turns or so) but doesn't decrease the alignment drop at all when you eat an undead corpse.
This means several corpses may very well bring you down from L+ to L or from L to LN and further, even if you somehow wore two or three amulets of order.

Each undead corpse eaten is a -100 to alignment.
However, an amulet of balance doesn't bring you to N; it instead lowers both positive and negative alignment modifiers, by as much as 8 times for blessed amulet.
In this case each corpse would only cause a drop of ~12,5 alignment points, which is *much* more effective at keeping your alignment intact than amulets of order.
It's also faster since you don't really have to regain the lost alignment points by healing pets, giving away food/gold or running around with *foo* of order.
10 corpses means 10 points of toughness or 5 points of toughness and potential toughness, and only costs ~125 alignment points with a blessed amulet of balance, while otherwise it would be 1250 alignment points - enough to get you from L to N.

[divij]

Sorry but you are wrong. Amulet of order is a very poor counter for alignment drop due to eating undead corpses.
It provides a constant shift towards L+ (by a very small amount each ~2 turns or so) but doesn't decrease the alignment drop at all when you eat an undead corpse.
This means several corpses may very well bring you down from L+ to L or from L to LN and further, even if you somehow wore two or three amulets of order.

Each undead corpse eaten is a -100 to alignment.
However, an amulet of balance doesn't bring you to N; it instead lowers both positive and negative alignment modifiers, by as much as 8 times for blessed amulet.
In this case each corpse would only cause a drop of ~12,5 alignment points, which is *much* more effective at keeping your alignment intact than amulets of order.
It's also faster since you don't really have to regain the lost alignment points by healing pets, giving away food/gold or running around with *foo* of order.
10 corpses means 10 points of toughness or 5 points of toughness and potential toughness, and only costs ~125 alignment points with a blessed amulet of balance, while otherwise it would be 1250 alignment points - enough to get you from L to N.

correct me if im wrong, but from adomwiki (and from my personal experience), it seems that the effectiveness of AoB depends on your piety with N god.
also, use morgia after getting a corpse to increase your potential max instead of using more corpses to reach your new max. this is only effective imho if you have food preservation atleast abv 60.....else there is a lot of grinding which can be better done on the big room after reading scrolls of danger to increase the danger lvl to 8 and then finding a RoDS to wish for potions of potential To (and not potions of To) or potions of exchange (curse and drink) this also had the advantage of getting you weapon or spell marks, exp and random drops (treasure-hunter helps a lot here). OR you can take high St/To races :cough: drakeling :cough:

[Blasphemous]

I know what you read on the adom wiki, but you misunderstood:

It is champions of balance, or characters that invested a lot in a high piety score with their neutral deity, who will find this item most desirable, as it allows them to perform deeds contrary to their alignment with greater ease.

However, this only means that N= characters can perform significantly chaotic OR lawful actions without much risk of getting alignment shift.
High piety means they are probably crowned so changing alignment at this point is a bad idea.
However the functionality of amulets of balance as items has no connection with neutral deities at all, they simply benefit neutrals most due to the nature of their playstyle in respect to their piety and alignment.
Hence, in absolute terms, AoB work the same for L and C characters as they do for N.
Effectiveness of amulets of balance has absolutely nothing to do with piety with N god.

I use them frequently and I generally play a lot, grind a lot and scum a lot, 99% of cases as L+ character that never sacced to N deity.
Blessed amulets of balance work wonderfully every time.

As for morgia, you don't always have access to it and sometimes you don't have herbalism so farming it in order to get reasonable quantities is just a very tedious piece of work.
If on the other hand you have some arrows/quarrels of hunting, you don't even need food preservation and undead corpses will pile before you in heaps.
I always take TH and grinding big room for RoDS is doable after you read a scroll of danger but as tedious as farming herbs without herbalism or multiple stable patches.
I'd rather sip pools hoping for a wish and then wish for gardening to use in a pacified big room and get infinite morgia and what not.

I have often used undead corpses because I almost exclusively play gray elves and it's a viable strategy for them.
Arrows of hunting aren't perhaps the most common of items but they do show up eventually.

[GordonOverkill]

In my opinion there are some characters (= elves) for whome it is absolutely valid to use a wish on potions of potential toughness. Did that on two of my recent game-winners and never regretted it.

[Blasphemous]

I'm a grinder, I usually find enough potions of toughness and toughness potential to not have to wish for any.
Low HP has its advantages; it forces a careful gameplay and better utilization of all items you find.
You can't just go head first into combat without considering how much your HP allows you to withstand.
Eventually you get more HP and the game becomes more streamlined but I think that the first phase of the game always benefits from careful play and to an extent blurs the line between chars with low toughness and those with average (sub 20).

[GordonOverkill]

Absolutely agree! My first successful Avatar of Order startet with To 4 adn a potential maximum of 7, which forced me to play really carefully in the beginning. Maybe in the end that was an important factor for his success :-)

[SinsI]

Below Toughness 20 eating undead Toughness-draining corpses (wights, spectres, vampires) always gives an increase to Toughness potential.
Wear blessed amulet of balance to reduce alignment effect or cast some Cure spells on hurt monsters to instantly repair alignment loss.