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yisk
03-29-2008, 07:54 AM
Please, before to swear, read and think.

I do not wish to transform JADE into stupid game for children, but I am almost assured, that alone Thomas cannot inhale a life in so huge randomly created world. Despite tremendous detail, even ADOM suffers callousness a little. Sometimes you do not feel, what for it is necessary to go, fight and be corrupted here and there.

After video about JADE, it is necessary to think - whether has come time to change cardinally something? I already spoke about the editor of scenarios for JADE, now I wish to offer, for what this editor should serve.

For example, the huge world, being generated randomly, has in itself twelve cities-capitals in twelve basic zones: wood, snow, desert, ashes, mountains, swamp, water, fog of death, the sacred clouds, the corrupted earth etc. In each city is NPCs which can send the player through a portal (which in different kinds is in each city) for performance of quests.

These quests are created by people with the editor of JADE scenario. After that the commission from selected fans checks a map on many parametres:
- Quality, originality, beauty
- Conformity of sense of the scenario, landscape, names NPC (it is impossible to use names like "MadE_by_JulYzeRk"), type and quantity of enemies to atmosphere of some game territory.
As in due course these mini-adventures becomes much at their random drop - out, they will be perceived each time as new.

At all it such "the system of semi-independent quests" does not prevent to work to the Creator on the general story line, to expand and deepen the game world.

Scienceman123
03-29-2008, 04:40 PM
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/9298/lolwutbd5.jpg

theotherhiveking
03-29-2008, 04:41 PM
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/9298/lolwutbd5.jpg

Omfg!


I have seen you in the wesnoth forums?

Sradac
03-29-2008, 08:47 PM
it really sounds like you want to convince The Creator to change JADE completely into your roguelike. Maybe you should just make your own roguelike with your ideas because there is no way TB is going to impltement this stuff. Only one city per terrain? That sounds like some washed up childs adventure platformer. Not trying to be mean here, but these ideas would pretty much change everything JADe is about including backstory etc.

IronJelly
03-29-2008, 10:15 PM
Gotta agree with the post above me, your suggestions seem arbitrary in contextual relation to ADOM and JADE.

If you do want to make a roguelike though, send me an email, I would love to design one, and I have some programming knowledge, but no good ideas.

Scienceman123
03-30-2008, 12:02 AM
Omfg!


I have seen you in the wesnoth forums?

No...
That image isn't mine.

theotherhiveking
03-30-2008, 01:38 AM
No...
That image isn't mine.

I confused you with science guy omfg!

Worst Player... ever
03-30-2008, 03:29 AM
If I read this right, it sounds a lot like an old game called Legacy of the Ancients. It had a bunch of portals, and you kind of went from episode to episode.

In fact, this type of thing doesn't sound like a roguelike at all. This is something that sounds like it could be better done in RPG Maker.

IronJelly, you like to flat out program but have no ideas? That's a rarity... I have a couple of half finished games that I thought were good concepts, but the programming got too damn time consuming. The ideas are usually easy but the programming is what kills people. :)

yisk
03-30-2008, 05:40 AM
I simply wish to tell, that I do not see other ways to enrich with sense the huge world of JADE. If there will be other way... then I will change my opinion.

adom-admin
03-30-2008, 01:08 PM
After video about JADE, it is necessary to think - whether has come time to change cardinally something? I already spoke about the editor of scenarios for JADE, now I wish to offer, for what this editor should serve.


The good thing is: There will be a quest editor starting with the initial release of JADE... :D The bad thing is: It might not be what you expected.

Let me elaborate: IMHO the only decent quest editor for meaningfully interesting quests (e.g. such that can't be randomly generated with a simple template approach) are those that you program. The quest editor for JADE thus looks like this:

Read the public Java API for JADE (which I will make available in the most current form once JADE is out in an initial version).
Get some Java IDE (e.g. Eclipse or IntelliJ).
Ask for blog posts explaining the details about how to design quests (I even might write some unasked ;-)
Write Java code, add it to the game binary and test it.Overly simplistic? Maybe? Efficient? Definitely! And IMHO the only way to design quests that cannot be randomly generated by JADE according to some simplistic formula.

IMHO just writing some flavor text is not really what makes for great new quests... it's adding new ways in which you can interact with the environment and in which the environment interacts with you. Flavor text could be added to the random generator templates ;)

Sradac
03-30-2008, 05:01 PM
The good thing is: There will be a quest editor starting with the initial release of JADE... :D The bad thing is: It might not be what you expected.

Let me elaborate: IMHO the only decent quest editor for meaningfully interesting quests (e.g. such that can't be randomly generated with a simple template approach) are those that you program. The quest editor for JADE thus looks like this:

Read the public Java API for JADE (which I will make available in the most current form once JADE is out in an initial version).
Get some Java IDE (e.g. Eclipse or IntelliJ).
Ask for blog posts explaining the details about how to design quests (I even might write some unasked ;-)
Write Java code, add it to the game binary and test it.Overly simplistic? Maybe? Efficient? Definitely! And IMHO the only way to design quests that cannot be randomly generated by JADE according to some simplistic formula.

IMHO just writing some flavor text is not really what makes for great new quests... it's adding new ways in which you can interact with the environment and in which the environment interacts with you. Flavor text could be added to the random generator templates ;)


Sounds good, thats how its done with the ToME modules done in lua scripting you add it to the game yourself...err...does this mean that JADE will be open source? How else would you add it to the game binary?

yisk
03-30-2008, 05:02 PM
Sounds great! But I have not understood, how self-made quests will be played? As a separate scenarios or as somehow integrated adventures in the JADE world?

P.S. I against game became opened. And if these quests are built in game, the Creator should do it only.

Grey
03-31-2008, 02:27 AM
The good thing is: There will be a quest editor starting with the initial release of JADE... :D The bad thing is: It might not be what you expected.


Well, this certainly sounds interesting, though it shouldn't be too much of a priority. Perhaps then the most popular quests in the community would be integrated into the next JADE release in some form? Could turn out to be quite interesting - a community development, but with one editorial hand guiding over content and giving the game a more consistent overall feel.

Guess I'm gonna have to learn me some Java now...

Worst Player... ever
03-31-2008, 06:09 AM
I didn't like the sound of this when I first read it, but JADE could be really awesome if we have a bunch of random quests along with 50-60 unrelated specific quests designed by the community. As long as there's some control and we don't end up with Nethack.

I hope random quests are still a thing. I loved games like Treasure of Tarmin and Dungeon Hack, and for some reason I just never, ever get tired of, 'go down to level 15 of this dungeon and kill some named monster'. I could play games like that forever. :D

Dougy
03-31-2008, 07:52 AM
Sounds like a good idea to me, hopefully JADE can be improved with minimal work from TB. Also there are many good ideas around but not all of them could be included in ADOM.

Oh, and it's not necessary to publish the code in order to get outside contributions - although a quest author would need to understand the required input/output.

Epythic
03-31-2008, 12:53 PM
The good thing is: There will be a quest editor starting with the initial release of JADE... :D The bad thing is: It might not be what you expected.

Let me elaborate: IMHO the only decent quest editor for meaningfully interesting quests (e.g. such that can't be randomly generated with a simple template approach) are those that you program. The quest editor for JADE thus looks like this:

Read the public Java API for JADE (which I will make available in the most current form once JADE is out in an initial version).
Get some Java IDE (e.g. Eclipse or IntelliJ).
Ask for blog posts explaining the details about how to design quests (I even might write some unasked ;-)
Write Java code, add it to the game binary and test it.Overly simplistic? Maybe? Efficient? Definitely! And IMHO the only way to design quests that cannot be randomly generated by JADE according to some simplistic formula.

IMHO just writing some flavor text is not really what makes for great new quests... it's adding new ways in which you can interact with the environment and in which the environment interacts with you. Flavor text could be added to the random generator templates ;)

+1 The only right way.

Any chance you will add some player-made stuff into the main version?

Petra
03-31-2008, 02:36 PM
Has anyone on here ever played Dwarf Fortress? If anyone did, then you'll understand why I'm gonna emphasize the need for community involvement -- AKA: Mr. Biskup can't make EVERY little thing in each release of JADE.

Just a thought, but the original post might have something going with the quest editor...

Plausible
03-31-2008, 03:17 PM
Read the public Java API for JADE (which I will make available in the most current form once JADE is out in an initial version).
[...]
Write Java code, add it to the game binary and test it.

If I understand well, this will allow for programming certain parts of the game while hiding those parts of the code which are not meant to be touched. That'd be a good balance between open and closed source.

It might even allow someone with time on their hands to build a user-friendly editor themselves, on top of the API as it were, to help the Java-illiterate, and so Thomas needn't do that.


IMHO just writing some flavor text is not really what makes for great new quests... it's adding new ways in which you can interact with the environment and in which the environment interacts with you. Flavor text could be added to the random generator templates

I disagree. Imagine Dostoevski or Garcia Marques or Stephen King writing flavour text for a JADE quest - surely it will be a better quest than what the random generator could do? You can load the random quest generator with a gazillion 'text samples' but it still takes a human or a very clever quest generator to arrange text just so that it makes a great story. So, hope that the public API will allow for extra user-made text, in addition to user-made gameplay elements.

Anyway, exciting stuff :)

yisk
03-31-2008, 04:38 PM
I disagree. Imagine Dostoevski or Garcia Marques or Stephen King writing flavour text for a JADE quest - surely it will be a better quest than what the random generator could do? You can load the random quest generator with a gazillion 'text samples' but it still takes a human or a very clever quest generator to arrange text just so that it makes a great story.Disagree. You shouldn't speak about books and roguelikes as about equal things.

moppit
03-31-2008, 06:19 PM
Excellent! And fun!

1.)Are you going to maintain a way to test quests before they get incorporated into Jade? (So you don't have a destroy darth vader quest)

2.)Do you think people would put out spin-off variants... I.E. Jade quest super uber enhanced.. Kill the goblin for skullcrusher.. Download my altered Jade from http://www.Ichangedagoodthing.com

3.)Are all quests going to be available in every game. (IMHO <-- Most important question in my mind - Once again I would like to see all quests non-guaranteed... one of 5(arbitrary) plot quests guaranteed))

yisk
03-31-2008, 07:55 PM
Yes, i wish to see only good created quests. :] Also I suppose to use a pl(o?)t of any legends you know. It was so funny to guess who is who in ADOM.

coppro
04-01-2008, 05:19 AM
The quest editor for JADE thus looks like this:

Read the public Java API for JADE (which I will make available in the most current form once JADE is out in an initial version).
Get some Java IDE (e.g. Eclipse or IntelliJ).
Ask for blog posts explaining the details about how to design quests (I even might write some unasked ;-)
Write Java code, add it to the game binary and test it.Overly simplistic? Maybe? Efficient? Definitely!Items 2, 3, and possibly the latter half of 4 are unnecessary - JADE could be written (probably not early on, but it could be done) to make it capable of dynamic loading .class files - I've seen Java applications that load all the .class files for extensions from specific directories. So for instance, JADE could load all the files in a Monsters directory as being monsters, and so on and so forth. And an IDE is strictly optional - I just use KATE, which is a text editor with a built-in shell, multiple file support, and syntax highlighting, which is all I need. And as for learning about how to do things, listening to the guy who made the system is often strictly optional. Well-documented (and in some cases, well-written, but that's not applicable here) code speaks for itself.

This will be great for me to brush up on my Java... here come the errors about functions not specifying exceptions!

Epythic
04-05-2008, 11:29 AM
Items 2, 3, and possibly the latter half of 4 are unnecessary - JADE could be written (probably not early on, but it could be done) to make it capable of dynamic loading .class files - I've seen Java applications that load all the .class files for extensions from specific directories. So for instance, JADE could load all the files in a Monsters directory as being monsters, and so on and so forth. And an IDE is strictly optional - I just use KATE, which is a text editor with a built-in shell, multiple file support, and syntax highlighting, which is all I need. And as for learning about how to do things, listening to the guy who made the system is often strictly optional. Well-documented (and in some cases, well-written, but that's not applicable here) code speaks for itself.

This will be great for me to brush up on my Java... here come the errors about functions not specifying exceptions!

I am not sure if dynamic loading is a good thing. Plugins in general dont integrate well into each other, which is bad. If we, on the other hand, write stuff, then submit it to the Creator, he merges them into the mainline and publishes the updated javadoc, newer plugins will build on the old plugins, which means they integrate at least in one direction.

I use VIM (www.vim.org), the only true editor :)

F50
04-06-2008, 12:09 AM
I use VIM (www.vim.org), the only true editor :) With vim we shall mod! ;)

Pity one has to use JAVA though...Ah well.

Epythic
04-12-2008, 01:38 PM
With vim we shall mod! ;)

Pity one has to use JAVA though...Ah well.

Yep. I prefer Python (www.python.org), by the way, and there is Jython, which runs on the JVM, integrates into Java, compiles into Bytecode and is fully compatible to Java in the sense that writing JADE modules shouldn't be possible. Still, "real" python is better.