So whats going on in this ADOM game?

[vogonpoet]

ADOM updates and lots of them eh?

I have been tempted back to ADOM after someone mentioned the steam release on the Bay12 forums... I don't have Steam, or any expectation of managing to set up Steam in the future, but I do now have ADOM r60 on my computer.

So whats new since 1.1.1? It is going to take me a fair while to get used to ADOM again - I have been crawling a lot. A lot. But I just killed off an awesome HEIE, dead to my own conjured ball lightnings in Crypt, and it felt like an appropriate time to see how many suicides I can rack up in ADOM.

Can I still win ADOM if I do everything I did in 1.1.1, but without the horrible careless mistakes? Or has too much changed?

And what happened to the lemon chiffon?

[hapro]

You can still do fine following the same dungeon path as before. Mostly the new stuff is just additional content so if you do everything you'll be even stronger by D50. Some significant things were fixed like uberjackals and crashing from eating certain corpses, along with some key gameplay changes you might hit without realizing it (casino slots give corruption even though they're still only 1 turn, and you'll have trouble if you try to generate a wish engine).

[auricbond]

A major change would be that you can no longer push potentials with anything that trains stats (garth, herbs etc). I'm not sure I like this, but I think something in the middle needs to be found between how it works now and how it worked before.

[Laukku]

Here's a changelog: http://www.adom.de/home/changelog.html

It's huge.

EDIT: Some important changes off the top of my head:

* Lots of nerfing: Teleportation cost increases with danger level; Invisibility is nearly useless (has this been fixed?); Several exploits removed (gremlin bombing, RoDS dipping and many more); 7 league boots are slower; HP casting abuses stats
* Some new races and classes
* There are special statues and named minor boss encounters randomly in the dungeons.

[Kelibath]

The statues are a really interesting new addition. You can interact with different ones in different ways, and some are grossly positive or negative, while others are there just to add a bit of flavour.
Shame to hear about the boots though.
Other changes:

I noticed the Casino thing as well! Sat on the same switch for ~80k gold and I gained a full corruption.

Darkforge is also a lot more dangerous for a PC with controlled teleportitis, now. I was trying to slowly lure the mobs upstairs and kill them one-by-one, severely underlevelled, and suddenly found myself in the centre of the Forge because the dwarven artificer now wrenches control of your teleportation! I survived- just. It doesn't go off every single time, probably something to do with intrinsic invisibility, sight line and/or stealth level.



A major change would be that you can no longer push potentials with anything that trains stats (garth, herbs etc). I'm not sure I like this, but I think something in the middle needs to be found between how it works now and how it worked before.

Agreed. I think it'd be nice to push potentials a little way, but not too far. Maybe having a hard limit a couple of points above whatever the current potential sits at that then needs magical support to surpass (PoGAs and so on).

[shockeroo]

I think it'd be nice to push potentials a little way, but not too far. Maybe having a hard limit a couple of points above whatever the current potential sits at that then needs magical support to surpass (PoGAs and so on).

This sounds okay I principle, but the specifics are messy. What you're actually asking is for the game to track a secondary, semi-hidden stat potential that's harder to get to - effectively giving you two stat potentials, one with harsher requirements. It'd be a lot simpler to just set one stat potential where you want it to be... Which is probably where it already is.

If we'd never had the old functionality this change would have little appeal. I think this one is best left as-is.

[auricbond]

My two solutions would be (either/or):
1. Give starting potentials a significant boost. I'm not sure if anything was changed on this front. The reason the change was proposed in the first place was to prevent uniformity in stats (for a time, at least).
2. Give some in-game guaranteed or semi-guaranteed potential potions. For instance one of Thrundaar's quests could award 1d2 potential toughness potions if your potential score is below 15.

[JellySlayer]

ADOM updates and lots of them eh?

I have been tempted back to ADOM after someone mentioned the steam release on the Bay12 forums... I don't have Steam, or any expectation of managing to set up Steam in the future, but I do now have ADOM r60 on my computer.

So whats new since 1.1.1? It is going to take me a fair while to get used to ADOM again - I have been crawling a lot. A lot. But I just killed off an awesome HEIE, dead to my own conjured ball lightnings in Crypt, and it felt like an appropriate time to see how many suicides I can rack up in ADOM.

Can I still win ADOM if I do everything I did in 1.1.1, but without the horrible careless mistakes? Or has too much changed?

And what happened to the lemon chiffon?

Lemon chiffon was replaced by full spoiler tags.

Significant changes I can think of...
-Stat potential stuff that already been mentioned
-Darkness and invisibility have been nerfed. They're still pretty useful, but much more circumstantial.
-The Maze is worth doing. Very, very worth doing, especially in r60. (It's been nerfed in r62, apparently).
-Eating the Orb Guardian corpses is fairly worthwhile.
-Base corruption rate is much lower. SoCR are borderline useless unless you're planning on eating all of the orb guardian corpses. Or if you go passed day 180.
-New areas, races, classes, added. Duelists are powerful but be sure you understand their restrictions. Chaos knights are... interesting and quirky to play. Ratlings are kind of lame. Mist elves have a lot of stuff going on, but their HP is startlingly low. Ice Queen area is well worth visiting, though there is one section that can easily result in death if you don't know what you're doing.
-Gardening is awesome now. You can pick herb seeds from full plants. First aid is also quite good and well worth training and using regularly.
-A bunch of new corruptions added. Some pretty fun. Some really annoying.
-Some new artifacts added, and all of the former "crowning-only" artifacts are now accessible to all characters.
-Thunderstroke and True Aim are top-tier artifacts.
-Candle starsign has been nerfed a bit. It's still decent, but not godly.
-Thrown potions and disablers have been nerfed a bit. They still do okay, but some monsters are resistant to some types of potions now.
-Darkforge raid is a bit trickier.
-Bug temple raid is a bit trickier.
-XP stuff related to slow monster/invis have been nerfed. No 8 million xp AKWs anymore.
-XP curve is more sensible for endgame characters. Early game you won't notice much difference, but you'll hit ToEF a bit higher and won't get 10 levels at a time in the endgame.
-There's a new room that's like a great treasure vault, except it holds an artifact. Very, very rare though.
-Two guaranteed greater vaults. One is on D:45-6, but corruption is toned down enough that you can actually clear it in melee without ruining your character. Greater giant vault is a bit tougher.
-Monster generation has been altered a bit. Expect fewer goblins in the lower CoC.
-A few new items added, nothing too exciting except for the epic Chaos Knight only crowning gifts.
-Most of the old scumming techniques have been nerfed.
-The game won't crash if you drop an ingot!
-HPCasting is much more brutal.
-Pickpocketting is a bit less rewarding
-Andor Drakon is a bit tougher.
-Thrundarr 1st quest is now much easier
-A bunch of nice stuff from Sage is now part of the game proper, such as repeat last action command ('), teleport to stairs, colored prompts, and auto-explore.
-Game autosaves every 1000 turns. Look for PCname.bak in the event of a crash.
-Player ghosts have been added. They can be turned off in the config file if they get too annoying.

Oh yeah, there's music and graphics now, if you want.

[sweetnothing]

Now I convinced that programming is working with bits: a tiny bit here and there.... :)

[vogonpoet]

Lemon chiffon was replaced by full spoiler tags.
Oh yeah, there's music and graphics now, if you want.

Thanks JellySlayer, that seems like quite a lot of nerfs... I couldn't kick rob a shop a few days ago, or do dragon gold doubling - money less free than before :(.

I did successfully please Yergis by invis robbing the black market though, so invis still seems fairly legit?

My main shock has been just how unforgiving ADOM is in comparison to Crawl :) I had forgotten how many early deaths there are... and HP regen, oh my god, its so slooooow.

So far my best dude in r60 did the dwarven quests, cleared the pyramid, and was then slain by a mimic hivemind in an unnecessary trip thorugh DH, I totally forgot how dangerous those dudes are... definitely died a lot to own stupidity, not just acid traps :0.

//ASCII forever.

[JellySlayer]

Thanks JellySlayer, that seems like quite a lot of nerfs... I couldn't kick rob a shop a few days ago, or do dragon gold doubling - money less free than before :(.

I did successfully please Yergis by invis robbing the black market though, so invis still seems fairly legit?

Invis doesn't let you bolt monsters endlessly while they're completely unable to detect you, and certain monsters will stalk you even if they aren't exactly sure where you are. In both darkness and invis, monsters may also randomly stumble into the PC and hit them. A lot of people feel the nerf to invis has rendered it kind of useless, but I still find it to be quite powerful. Just not instakill/completely avoid everything powerful.

Stealth has also got a nice boost, now that I think of it.

[quik]

JellySlayer, would you care to elaborate in some of the points you mentioned? In particular:

-Eating the Orb Guardian corpses is fairly worthwhile.
Do they corrupt less now?

-Thrown potions and disablers have been nerfed a bit. They still do okay, but some monsters are resistant to some types of potions now.
Are they still useful for the ACW and the Chaos Archmage or they have to be killed in other ways?

-Bug temple raid is a bit trickier.
What has changed here?

-HPCasting is much more brutal.
Is it still usable in the endgame?

-Pickpocketting is a bit less rewarding
Is it still worth it to use it?

Thanks!

[JellySlayer]

JellySlayer, would you care to elaborate in some of the points you mentioned? In particular:

-Eating the Orb Guardian corpses is fairly worthwhile.
Do they corrupt less now?

I think they corrupt the same, but they give better bonuses. The stat bonuses that they give also break potentials, which can be useful. As an example, probably the best one is Yulgash, which gives +4 Wi/Le/Ma.


-Thrown potions and disablers have been nerfed a bit. They still do okay, but some monsters are resistant to some types of potions now.
Are they still useful for the ACW and the Chaos Archmage or they have to be killed in other ways?

It's just some specific potions don't work. ACW can't be confused anymore, IIRC, but still can be blinded. Or maybe it's the other way around, I can never remember.


-Bug temple raid is a bit trickier.
What has changed here?

Bugs shrug bolts frequently and can't be easily tamed with music.


-HPCasting is much more brutal.
Is it still usable in the endgame?

Endgame, yes, as long as you don't care too much about stats. It abuses Wi and To, and you don't get as good return on HP to PP.


-Pickpocketting is a bit less rewarding
Is it still worth it to use it?

Monsters will occasionally become enraged and get extra attacks I think. I think the drop rate is changed a bit, but I don't PP enough to be sure. Thief class power is apparently still worth it.

[Grey]

Welcome back, vogonpoet!

On top of the many changes listed, one little tweak is that Khelevaster is no longer permanently invisible when he's in Terinyo. Turns out that was a bug and none of us ever knew. Silly us!

[vogonpoet]

Hi Grey :)

I actually have an Orcish Barb on the go right now who already has an AoLS, so maybe I will be able to save Khelly at somepoint... It got L precrowned with Protector, lost all its piety to a careless alignment change (forgot vampiric was chaotic), and then found an eternium two-hander in the SMC, so its horribly conflicted - which is more criminal to not use, Protector or the two hander??? I don't really have a good one-handed weapon - an adamantium +7 spear, but protector is protector....

Decisions decisions

[JellySlayer]

Oh, another note: Scrolls now have a literacy check associated with them, and can fail (or even disappear) if you try to use them with low literacy.

[gut]

> Khelevaster is no longer permanently invisible when he's in Terinyo. Turns out that was a bug and none of us ever knew. Silly us!

I knew, I just chose not to tell the rest of you suckers. mwuhahahah!

[vogonpoet]

Hi gut :)

My off-the-ground barbarian had to harness sods law to get the RotHK - after waiting ages in the caverns above (like really, a looooong time), he traipsed all the way back to Terinyo to learn bridge building and pick up the manual, then traipsed back to the caverns, hoping to level up my skill at least at little before actually trying to build a damned bridge... so of course, only like, 10 minutes later, an ogre mage pops up, and I invite her down for a Frozen party. I love freezing ALL the fish, even if its really not necessary. So, the portal is open, the RotHK is in my pack, its time I guess to go visit the snake? Somewhat troublingly, I have no fireproof blankets. I do have a ring of ice though... Its been such a long time though... maybe I will put on my fanciest light metal clothes, and take Big Punch and Protector through Darkforge before heading down to the Snake, just to see where my dude is at, fire-wise... I really don't remember how to judge my progress :)

Other things to remember/decide: where and what is the phial; have I found a scroll of danger; what level do boars appear at; having saved K, do I just try to close the gate anyway. Decisions decisions. If I want to do an Ultra, I will have to like, spoil myself all over again - I remember needing the artifacts for the ratling, I remember the crap I need for the crone, I remember regretting not being more careful of my first kill, I remember horrendously screwing up trying to enter the stone circle at the right time, but the chronology is all forgotten to me...

Huh, its day 59, and I just found some as yet un-identified worn boots, so maybe I can level up and get to the stone circle by day 90, maybe not... I also remember getting brutally p0wned (it was like, almost 10 years ago after all) by the dragon dude... Keriax?

phial (gremlin cave right?), ancient scythe (shit, not found yet, can it generate after Khelly, I seem to recall yes?), Crown of Science maybe, Sword of Nonnak, something and something... loath to part with mummy wrapping or ahnk, currently actually using big punch with protector... ha ha, my sieve like memory is rubbish. Already gave the gladius to the drunk... Hmmm.

[vogonpoet]

Well so much for my DForge plans... I entered the NDC (thats the cave right above dark forge right?), straight away there is a tension room, and in the room, a doppleganger king. I escaped to the wilderness with like, 15% of my HP, and now it looks like I am off to meet the snake after all... How does one deal with DKs again? Wands from afar? There is like, no corridor space to work with...

[JellySlayer]

Hi gut :)

My off-the-ground barbarian had to harness sods law to get the RotHK - after waiting ages in the caverns above (like really, a looooong time), he traipsed all the way back to Terinyo to learn bridge building and pick up the manual, then traipsed back to the caverns, hoping to level up my skill at least at little before actually trying to build a damned bridge... so of course, only like, 10 minutes later, an ogre mage pops up, and I invite her down for a Frozen party. I love freezing ALL the fish, even if its really not necessary. So, the portal is open, the RotHK is in my pack, its time I guess to go visit the snake? Somewhat troublingly, I have no fireproof blankets. I do have a ring of ice though... Its been such a long time though... maybe I will put on my fanciest light metal clothes, and take Big Punch and Protector through Darkforge before heading down to the Snake, just to see where my dude is at, fire-wise... I really don't remember how to judge my progress :)

There is now a guaranteed wand of cold in the Ice Queen area. It's hard to find unless you know where to look, but very handy for this problem.


Other things to remember/decide: where and what is the phial

Gremlin cave in SW corner. Bring a light source. The phial cases a really expensive light spell when 'u'sed, and blinds some humanoids when thrown.


What level do boars appear at

15+ in forested areas. They're fairly common.


phial (gremlin cave right?), ancient scythe (shit, not found yet, can it generate after Khelly, I seem to recall yes?), Crown of Science maybe, Sword of Nonnak, something and something... loath to part with mummy wrapping or ahnk, currently actually using big punch with protector... ha ha, my sieve like memory is rubbish. Already gave the gladius to the drunk... Hmmm.

RoTHK can be offered after you pass the eternal guardian, and Big Punch when you find a better weapon. No rush on this, right? There's greater vaults in the lower CoC (and one elsewhere), plus Casino that will have extra artifact potential.

[edit]
Well so much for my DForge plans... I entered the NDC (thats the cave right above dark forge right?), straight away there is a tension room, and in the room, a doppleganger king. I escaped to the wilderness with like, 15% of my HP, and now it looks like I am off to meet the snake after all... How does one deal with DKs again? Wands from afar? There is like, no corridor space to work with...

Wands are probably best for a barbarian, yeah. Fireball wand from Thrundarr if you have it is one option. I think they can be webbed and stunned as well if you have those effects.

[vogonpoet]

There is now a guaranteed wand of cold in the Ice Queen area. ....
RoTHK can be offered after you pass the eternal guardian, and Big Punch when you find a better weapon.


The Ice Queen area eh? I guess I can go explore that a bit at some point. I can no longer remember what a better one handed weapon than Big Punch looks like... I have vague memories of awesome crowning gifts like Vanquisher, but before that? I guess there are the semi-mythical penetrating eternium spear of mayhem type weapons?

Anyway, the blessed wand of fireballs did indeed make short work of the 3 (three!) doppleganger kings my orc met already, the water orb has been obtained and DF was cleared with basically no effort whatsoever, so I guess I will prep myself for the ToEF... I will probably do a bloated naked apart from adamantium/eternium/artifact gear exploration first, then gear up a bit, and roll my fave digging wand into my newly found fireproof blanket.

Wyrm strategy will I think consist of smacking it in the face with Big Punch, after peppering it with any decent arrows I might have. What could possibly go wrong?

I guess I should drink all my stat potions at some point before I take on the Wyrm as well... hmm.