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luser
12-17-2015, 10:41 AM
Hi, I returned to playing adom after five year pause. As player I could do ultra regularly, so I tried how my tactics work in 1.2. On 1.1.1 gnome wizard was easiest class followed by other wizards then other spellcasters, then everybody else. A gap become bigger in 1.2 as other classes become weaker with exploits fixed (for example in 1.1.1 game with no restriction wizards were basically race to get lvl 15, when they hit it just get SoA from ID stairhop, two rings of acid resistance and hunt black dragons in swamp, with dragon doubling get some millions of gold that you use to buy out shops until you get girdle of greed, then proceed to gold doubling into 2000000000 gold and train all stats to 99 with Garth.) and gnome fast leveling helped that.

So I decided to write a guide to convince others that gnome/wizards is too easy class and you could do ultra ending with at least 1/3 characters, other two dying in early game. Main problem here is that easy doesn't translate to fun so while I playtested following script with 4 ultras in last week I usually play several parts more risky for more fun. This guide contains light scumming tactics that don't take much of time. While in no scumming game gnome wizards also shine its harder to describe strategy as it depends on luck of what items RNG gave you.

When I read this forum I found many misconceptions like that wizards are frail while opposite is true as they have easy early game when played properly. As you kill most monsters before they could go next to you main threats are doors and traps.

At character creation you need to start answering question, always choose one that increases learning, talent progression is alert, miser, treasure hunter, long stride, careful, potent aura, strong aura, good book caster, extended magic, mighty aura, great book caster. Female is better gender in ADOM as it uses apperance instead charisma for shop prices and AP is easier to boost with common items.

To maximize stat gains you should wait with PoGA until I will explicitly mention it as you should use first potions of potential foo and raise stat to 25 and there are tricks to raise to and de potential.

Then on first turn you need to press > to enter wilderness, equip weapon and rings, set tactics to coward read books and repeatedly cast foo bolt.

If you are unlucky and get less than hundred castings of bolt and stats suck then easiest curse is just leave and create new character, otherwise you need do ID scumming instead of following path to get survivable character.

First go to Terinyo to get sheriff and tiny girls quests. Its better to wait with druid/elder quest until you hit 100 alchemy and if you could generate PoGA with ultra healing then village quest, otherwise druid to get one more disposable artifact for ratling.

Then eat/buy rations just to become burdened and just be satiated, early there is no reason to become eat once satiated if you stash some large rations at dungeon entrances, so you could avoid speed penalty. On other hand you need burdened to train strength.

If its ressurection day head to swamp otherwise outlaw settlement, every time you recharge mana enter wilderness again and cast bolt. When you reach destination kill beggar/mugger/cutpurse find frog/lizard as first kill for filk quest. Then head to small mountain cave where you enter and immidiatedly leave just to generate weak monsters.

One of my discoveries when I tried to optimize 1.2 gameplay was that its best to go directly Kranach hunting to rapidly get level 6, so you don't have to worry so much about traps in dungeon. These encounters are easily winnable by running from monsters until you could line 3+ behind you, then kill them all with bolt and repeat running away. Here preparation that you casted spells in wilderness on turn 1 and folllowing will pay of as you will have 100 concentration potential which you should max ASAP(this is not optimal as you could get better skill increases by waiting for that but its hard to do that correctly.)

After that you should get around 5 keys from ratling and if you could lure him to Terinyo then do Hozenplotz quest. I will repeatedly use locking doors tricks which are very powerful and once you have lot of gold you could exchange them for magic writing sets. Then explore hills to generate hill orcs for spears.

Now we are at first dungeon stage with not so weak character.

When you enter dungeon always use torch if you could for increased visibility. Then unless its ID drop all spellbooks, and everything else you dont need and close/lock starting room if possible. Exceptions are SMC and when you are running low on spellbook so you could read it.

You should put your points to gemology, herbalism, alchemy, mining, stealing trying to always be able get maximum increase without reaching gap.

On first dungeon you start also playing on gnome strengths as first dungeon to visit should be puppy cave, question is if you are playing game or metagame. In both cases you want to do several w5 on l2 to let ants train you gemology potential to 100 difference is if you want to descend or just lock door and return back after training. A gamer would return back and go to id scumming phase. On other hand metagamer would descend. Difference is that while gamer would likely survive in same amount of time metagamer would try 3-5 characters and obtain likely one much stronger due to vault drop in same amount of time. Try to avoid finding/killing ants if possible as they will be crucial to mining later.

This could be followed by ID scumming or if you are feeling brave directly by SMC descend. While ID isn't stairhopping is considerably worse than 1.1.1 its still very good for wizards and reason are item levels. You should hop between levels 1--2 until you generate tension room that you clear for likely book (as danger level 1 maximizes book probability), here treasure hunter comes into play to make books more likely.

Ideal combination is invisibility + teleport + soa, with these spells and hunting blinking dog at levels 4-5 you basically won. Its possible to reach lvl 10 in ID by the time you should go to CoC. More funny alternative is explore other random dungeons.until you got teleport or slow monster.

Somewhere in between you should get whip to whip yourself into lawfull. You need to do it only once to convert one white altar/generate one at dwarftown. It greatly simplifies changing alignments later and you could sac almost everything without risk to L altar.

Sometimes in early game you complete spear+shield combo that means switch from pure spellcaster to mainly spellcaster, you should kill/pickpocket easy ID tension rooms as well as easy monsters to increase ranks for better DV. Also jackal... wilderness encounters are good way to train ranks once you got 8-10 pv and they couldn't harm you.

Also herbs play role depending if you find any stable 2x2 patch outside of big room or not. If you do then it suffices to semipacify level by locking all rooms using wand of door creation to generate doors that you could lock if you lack key for existing ones. Then you need to change patch to two 2x2 patches that generate stomatofillia, morgia and moss. A basic herb growing procedure is first use ~4 holy waters and gather herbs to create following pattern
"
"""
that grows into
"""
"""
"
which you need to trim to
"
"""
"
After several generations it expands into

"
"""
"" ""
"""
"
by trimming middle and then waiting you could move herbs to desired position. Unlimited blessed spenseweed will solve all your healing problems but it isn't that necessary.

Otherwise you need to tame big room for which you need wand of door creation and lot of booze and paying ratling for full set of keys. Make vertical line of doors around 6 tiles from corner. Then lure some worm there and lock all
doors and teleport out room (or use slow monsters). You need to partrol room for while until monsters no longer spawn to kill ones that could smash doors.

Gnome part begins to shine when you reach dwarftown as you could get smithing, then teleport glod and cast slow monster on him and lure him off level for anvil and hammer. That will make character practically untouchable by having 100 dv on coward. As most tedious part of getting ores being gnome wizard helps a lot. First if you have SoA you could pick all ores in one go instead doing several trips, also bookcasting teleport+control makes reaching dt much faster.

As for ores you will lot of them by ant mining, which is quite managable with teleport. First you need get pickaxe from pyramid and dig corridor, then make door that you could lock to make closet ideally in corner. Buy ~20 large rations/stomatofillia there and hit w5 while ants dig entire level. Possible problems are worms (pray for breeder control) or trap that will kill all ants. If that doesn't happen you could continue by digging lvl 3 and more. First go there and lock all doors you can. Then lure ants in groups of three and bookcast teleport to them.

Rewards are huge, First you get 10-20 crystals of knowledge. After dipping these to holy water and using them all they increase learning to around 30, but you need to use several crystals after Le 25 to get increase.
Second is that with decent mining ants generate enough ores that you could kill Glod and don't worry about fixing pickaxes.
Third is that crystals of power mean basically unlimited mana as when you run out of it either pray or use crystal for recharge.
And last is that selling them gives you lot of money, limited by what shopkeepers have. You need to force restock by buying out cheap items if shopkeeper runs out of money.

With money from gems you should get early training on climbing and stealth dices to max these. You want to enter rift at lvl 18 and stealth helps lot on killing monsters before they could spot you part.
Also get one precrowning with money or if you have enough money/patetience and handy converted altar you could go for two precrownings.

As you are likely lvl 14-16 do pyramid which is easy with ball/burning hands/firebolt. Best way to avoid traps is teleport right into stairs as its fixed layout level.

Then ask Thundarr about portal to get sword of Nonnak which will be your weapon of choice until endgame. Do not open graves unless you have weapon of hunting as you could raise toughtness to 27 later.

If you got ball spell then do greater claw bug farming below otherwise explore with buffed character random dungeons until you reach lvl 18, if it isnt fireball then do darkforge.

Rift and library. That depending on what spell you got will mean good way to fit gap in knowledge of spells. For taking library you only need magic missile and teleport and decend dv. First you should take spell books in secret passage at bottom by bouncing magic missile to kill guardian monsters, when mana/hp runs low teleport back to stairs, go out to learn spells, drop spellbooks next to librarian and repeat until you got all spells. Here raised stealth will pay off as you could kill sleeping monsters in following bookshelf by bouncing magic missiles followed by spenseweed to fix damage from your magic missiles. Trick here is preferably wake one monster at time.


#
@
# #
# #
#M#
###

After library you have ligthing ball that makes darkforge easy by spamming it and retreating/using crystal of power when you run out of mana. Take nerfed crown of science so number of spell casting shouldn't be problem unless its acid ball that you should bookcast if its near 100 casting and you didn't find second tome, also drink all boost learing you have.

Now comes raising Dex To and speed part aka greater claw bug farming. For wizards its one of most risk free ways to level in midgame once he could (book)cast ball spell and raised his Pe with blessed carrot juice. On post-library farsigth and bless help.

You need to lure claw bugs few at time by going forward and back. Then cast ball before they could hit you. When they generate corpse cook it with firebolt and carry them to hmv. Continue doing so until you are at post-library stage.

You need to increase speed bit to tackle temple level welcoming party, here spellbook of wish comes into play. Its great when you don't learn wish of it. You need to wear anhk and AMW and be strained for that. So after you harvested enough gcb corpses, morgia and blessed stomatofillia eat bugs until wi is smaller than 7 and then do routine of eat for 4 morgia, bookcast create item to train mana, and read wish to get back to hungry. Same applies for killer bugs.

With 120 speed, invisibility and bless you could tackle actual bug temple. As I write it as ultra attempt when you still didn't save Khelly you don't have water orb that make it lot easier. Luckily extended magic talent also makes improved fireball bigger so you should use it to clear bottom part so you dont get completely surrounded. Rest of temple is considerably easier as you could with farsight to approach killer bug room from range and clean it with improved fireballs and cooking+stash corpses for another round of raising speed/DE. If bugs got into corridor use death ray so you could use improved fireball next turn.

As reward you get trident of hunting, bless it and now its time to graverobbing great treasures. Keep master liches alive as they summon wraiths and spectres. Kill these with weapon of hunting and eat one if it could raise potential, otherwise teleport and sell it in black market until morgia raises To (unless its past 25 where you should eat it as well).

Next step is minotaur maze that is again almost trivial for wizards. For early levels teleport in, cast magic map until you reveal two stairs and teleport to surface to recharge mana. For bottom levels read blessed scrolls of magic mapping instead. Kill emperor, eat corpse and raise back Wi with wish book trick.

After that you don't need to use trick so teleportilis ins't that much deal so you could drink pools for possibility of wish and instrincs.

Now its time to start drinking blessed PoGA, I sometimes ran in problem of not having enough water.

On lvl 30 do black unicorn quest for more PoGA.

Collect rest of easy artifacts (torc, RoHK, phial), use crown last time for reading books before you give it to ratling and get one from dwarf mystic if rest are have good ones. Once you satisfy ratling do crone quests for medal.

Here comes biggest problem of doing ultra ending, lack of farmer corpse. Hunting trident helps but in some games I needed to wish several times for farmer to get corpse.

First booze/convert potions to booze and give it to fool for other potions. Then proceed on turning rest of useless potions into potions of raw chaos, equip porc and dip it to porc in wilderness until you end with PoGA, PoE or other great potion, and repeat this cycle. Obviously finding potion shop helps lot in this. With blessed PoE first try to convert stacks of rings on lvl8 to get rods. With rest of PoE go to cloaked ratling and buy hundreds of keys. Polypile them into magical writing sets at lvl 5.

You should have enough hp/mana to cast 1500 pp wish, if you don't explore crumbling cave/frost giant caves until you get mana battery to drain wands, recharge and drain them again. First wish should be AoLS. For second one first make following closet

.....
.###.
.#@#.
.#+#.
.....

and wish for emperor moloch. Pray to heal and for mana. Key spells in upcoming fight are invisibility and slow monsters. Use slow monster on yourself and invisibility on molochs Then kill them with acid ball for extra xp.

Then do ToEF and dive into CoC by magic mapping followed by teleport when you find stairs and using crystal of power when you are out of mana. Possibly become archmage with elemental orb of mana

Soirana
12-17-2015, 11:53 AM
Hi,
So I decided to write a guide to convince others that gnome/wizards is too easy class and you could do ultra ending with at least 1/3 characters
Pretty sure I can do ultra with 2/3 of any r\c combination. So getting 1/3 with wizards using multiple questionable features/bugs is far away from convincing.

By the way I don't think ultra is much harder than regular win [I think if you get quest before killing farmer, corpse is nearly guaranteed to be generated]. For properly built up character anything post Casino is a cakewalk.

Blank4u47
12-17-2015, 12:59 PM
Pretty sure I can do ultra with 2/3 of any r\c combination. So getting 1/3 with wizards using multiple questionable features/bugs is far away from convincing.

By the way I don't think ultra is much harder than regular win [I think if you get quest before killing farmer, corpse is nearly guaranteed to be generated]. For properly built up character anything post Casino is a cakewalk.

Agreed. The hardest part of an ultra is all the annoying quests and extra wasted time. Even that's not so bad if you just don't worry about crowning until the end.

Blasphemous
12-17-2015, 02:01 PM
The only real choke point for ultras is getting aols in reasonable time to save kelly.
Everything else is grindable so technically, I could get an ultra with any R/C combination though the differences primarily revolve around early game difficulty of survival.
Past lvl ~16 it's typically a walk in the park.
Ultras are boring though so I couldn't really be bothered. It's enough I have an ultra with around half the classes and for some - more than one such victory.

JellySlayer
12-17-2015, 04:32 PM
When I read this forum I found many misconceptions like that wizards are frail while opposite is true as they have easy early game when played properly. As you kill most monsters before they could go next to you main threats are doors and traps.

I've never really got this impression. Wizards are still considered ADOM easy mode AFAIK. They're not quite as ridiculous as in 1.1.1, I guess.


At character creation you need to start answering question, always choose one that increases learning, talent progression is alert, miser, treasure hunter, long stride, careful, potent aura, strong aura, good book caster, extended magic, mighty aura, great book caster. Female is better gender in ADOM as it uses apperance instead charisma for shop prices and AP is easier to boost with common items.

Most of the magic talents are a waste of time, IMHO. Better to take Quick/Very Quick/Greased Lightning after TH. Or push TH back and take Heir. Gnome wizard with Heir gift is quite powerful start.


After that you should get around 5 keys from ratling and if you could lure him to Terinyo then do Hozenplotz quest. I will repeatedly use locking doors tricks which are very powerful and once you have lot of gold you could exchange them for magic writing sets. Then explore hills to generate hill orcs for spears.

Seems like you spend an awful lot of time in the wilderness to get started and a lot of this doesn't seem particularly necessary.


Ideal combination is invisibility + teleport + soa, with these spells and hunting blinking dog at levels 4-5 you basically won. Its possible to reach lvl 10 in ID by the time you should go to CoC. More funny alternative is explore other random dungeons.until you got teleport or slow monster.

Oy vey, scumming at every step of the process. You're using the most overpowered class in ADOM. Most of this business you can probably cut out.


Also herbs play role depending if you find any stable 2x2 patch outside of big room or not. If you do then it suffices to semipacify level by locking all rooms using wand of door creation to generate doors that you could lock if you lack key for existing ones. Then you need to change patch to two 2x2 patches that generate stomatofillia, morgia and moss. A basic herb growing procedure is first use ~4 holy waters and gather herbs to create following pattern

If you're planning on doing extensive herb scumming, just get gardening from the druid quest.


Gnome part begins to shine when you reach dwarftown as you could get smithing, then teleport glod and cast slow monster on him and lure him off level for anvil and hammer. That will make character practically untouchable by having 100 dv on coward. As most tedious part of getting ores being gnome wizard helps a lot. First if you have SoA you could pick all ores in one go instead doing several trips, also bookcasting teleport+control makes reaching dt much faster.

As for ores you will lot of them by ant mining, which is quite managable with teleport. First you need get pickaxe from pyramid and dig corridor, then make door that you could lock to make closet ideally in corner. Buy ~20 large rations/stomatofillia there and hit w5 while ants dig entire level. Possible problems are worms (pray for breeder control) or trap that will kill all ants. If that doesn't happen you could continue by digging lvl 3 and more. First go there and lock all doors you can. Then lure ants in groups of three and bookcast teleport to them.

Oy vey.


Then do ToEF and dive into CoC by magic mapping followed by teleport when you find stairs and using crystal of power when you are out of mana. Possibly become archmage with elemental orb of mana

Oy vey.

So, what's the turncount on this ultra? 250k?

_Ln_
12-17-2015, 04:51 PM
This guide contains light scumming tactics that don't take much of time.

Well that was something.

hapro
12-17-2015, 05:40 PM
The only real choke point for ultras is getting aols in reasonable time to save kelly.
not even very hard anymore with all the new dungeons and dipping change. I do ToEF before snake a lot these days because the exp/items from below khel is mostly irrelevant now

luser
12-17-2015, 07:11 PM
Pretty sure I can do ultra with 2/3 of any r\c combination. So getting 1/3 with wizards using multiple questionable features/bugs is far away from convincing.

By the way I don't think ultra is much harder than regular win [I think if you get quest before killing farmer, corpse is nearly guaranteed to be generated]. For properly built up character anything post Casino is a cakewalk.


So I could unless I got tired of spending hours on id 1 with weak character and forgot to watch hp and open door with stone block instead properly retreating and generating new level.

I was referring to average players like: "I played ADOM for year with TrBe, DrPa... , no wins so far." where 1/3 wins is very good improvement. By the way I am interested if you could write guide how to get 2/3 win rate with mist elf merchants.

Also as I previously stated once you get reasonable percentage win rate it mostly just reflect where you are on gamer/metagamer scale, metagamer could make three characters where only one makes past puppy and smc each play taking ten minutes while gamer would spend two hours fixing one character so similar state as metagamer got.

As ultra/regular while most of time I get corpse I had games where no corpse was generated, not sure why.

And wizards are exception in other way as normal ending is significantly easier than ultra. Mainly as you could dive for water orb that combined with sword of nonnak and half-decent wi means size 2 balls.

I agree that everything post casino is cakewalk, that why in my guide most risky part is reach dwarf town. Once there its just few hours of grinding to get lvl 50 and 50+ stats with nearly zero risk.

_Ln_
12-17-2015, 07:59 PM
As ultra/regular while most of time I get corpse I had games where no corpse was generated, not sure why.

Farmer corpses have 50% chance to be generated but only if the quest for one is active. Terinyo population typically provides enough.

luser
12-17-2015, 09:16 PM
I've never really got this impression. Wizards are still considered ADOM easy mode AFAIK. They're not quite as ridiculous as in 1.1.1, I guess.



While I agree at first part, second part is false as while power level of wizard decreased by bit other classes got hit much worse, you couldn't for example just easily raise stats of farmer to become half-caster with le 50 anymore.



Most of the magic talents are a waste of time, IMHO. Better to take Quick/Very Quick/Greased Lightning after TH. Or push TH back and take Heir. Gnome wizard with Heir gift is quite powerful start.

No, problem is that magic talents are about only thing that makes sense and I get these only as prereq to good/great book caster for easier spamming of SoA, invisibility and teleport without worrying that I ran out of charges. While its conservative what you suggest is much worse.

For casters quick line of talents suck badly, about as much as raven sign. These translate to xp penalty with zero benefit, wizards just blast everything from distance and if they need to retreat then teleport. Also heir is complete garbage, at best you could sell it in black market and buy something decent. Until lvl 16 when you start using balls you basically never run out of mana and regularly casted fire bolt basically kills any monster that didn't shrug it off.



Seems like you spend an awful lot of time in the wilderness to get started and a lot of this doesn't seem particularly necessary.

Not really. Unless you want to give up raider lord quest you need to do this. On average its 1500 xp to get lvl 6 and single encounter with barbarians could push you from lvl1 to lvl5. Also wilderness means lot monsters on dl1 for biggest chance to generate book. As you just care about win who cares that you spend extra time there?




Oy vey, scumming at every step of the process. You're using the most overpowered class in ADOM. Most of this business you can probably cut out.
[l/quote]
And you got it backward as its also most overpowered as you could scum quite effectvely than other way around.

Not really as you need somewhat make character capable of defeating andy and it would be both more time intensive and risky than doing this in following way.

Here I try to minimize player time while maximize winning chance so these could be pulled of relatively quickly.

[quote]
If you're planning on doing extensive herb scumming, just get gardening from the druid quest.

Again gardening is absolutely useless unless you don't have digging to move herbs into desired position. You only need one 2x2 patch with morgia+moss and 2x2 with stomatofillia and moving them by growing is faster than just gathering seeds and planting them. Also you run into timing problem as you should somewhat raise herbalism, and get precrowning before you do druid quest so its better just create morgia patch when you encounter herbs and have holy water. You don't need more as best way to harvest them is rapidly pressing w5w5w5w5,,,,w5w5w5w5w5,,,,w5w5w5w5w5w,,,,,



So, what's the turncount on this ultra? 250k?

Again its about winning so I don't care much, you could decrease these by increasing tedium, I could do try game to optimize these somewhat as so for I didn't even bother to curse and uncurse morgia to cut wi regaining phase, all other steps are quite fast.

hapro
12-17-2015, 09:33 PM
This is a pretty good example of why guides don't really work for a game like this. Everyone has their own playstyle, and what each player finds fun varies greatly. This guide could probably help someone to victory, but it is true it has a lot of unnecessary stuff and isn't really optimal, so others could find it boring. That's why the guidebook is so great - it merely gives hints and suggestions for each part of the game, but it's up to the player to choose what interests them.

JellySlayer
12-17-2015, 09:37 PM
No, problem is that magic talents are about only thing that makes sense and I get these only as prereq to good/great book caster for easier spamming of SoA, invisibility and teleport without worrying that I ran out of charges. While its conservative what you suggest is much worse.

For casters quick line of talents suck badly, about as much as raven sign. These translate to xp penalty with zero benefit, wizards just blast everything from distance and if they need to retreat then teleport. Also heir is complete garbage, at best you could sell it in black market and buy something decent. Until lvl 16 when you start using balls you basically never run out of mana and regularly casted fire bolt basically kills any monster that didn't shrug it off.

XP loss is minimal for extra speed, especially for a gnome of all things. Doubly so if you intend on doing emperor moloch for XP anyway. Wizards get plenty of castings, so it's not like they need to bookcast anyway.

Heir gift lets you visit the crumbling cave at level 1. You can level there much more efficiently than anywhere else in the early game, including BugWil in 1.1.1.


Not really. Unless you want to give up raider lord quest you need to do this. On average its 1500 xp to get lvl 6 and single encounter with barbarians could push you from lvl1 to lvl5. Also wilderness means lot monsters on dl1 for biggest chance to generate book. As you just care about win who cares that you spend extra time there?

I never do the raider lord quest. Not worth the time/effort at all. You can get more XP from killing one swamp hydra.



And you got it backward as its also most overpowered as you could scum quite effectvely than other way around.

Depends what you mean by efficiently. I'm pretty sure I could win 3 characters in the time it takes you to win 1.


Not really as you need somewhat make character capable of defeating andy and it would be both more time intensive and risky than doing this in following way.

Pretty much any character strong enough to get the ToTRR and paralysis resist can kill Andy. I've beaten him easily with stats in the 30s, no smithing or any other nonsense.


Here I try to minimize player time while maximize winning chance so these could be pulled of relatively quickly.

I really honestly doubt this. What's your typical play time?


Again gardening is absolutely useless unless you don't have digging to move herbs into desired position. You only need one 2x2 patch with morgia+moss and 2x2 with stomatofillia and moving them by growing is faster than just gathering seeds and planting them. Also you run into timing problem as you should somewhat raise herbalism, and get precrowning before you do druid quest so its better just create morgia patch when you encounter herbs and have holy water. You don't need more as best way to harvest them is rapidly pressing w5w5w5w5,,,,w5w5w5w5w5,,,,w5w5w5w5w5w,,,,,

Oh, there's a precrown in there too? And you say this is a fast game?

Soirana
12-18-2015, 12:09 AM
So I could unless I got tired of spending hours on id 1 with weak character and forgot to watch hp and open door with stone block instead properly retreating and generating new level.

The only reasons I visit ID [after stairhopping was fixed] are Filk, sceptre and blink dogs. If played ultraconservative [which means no SMC at start and so on] win rate would 19/20 or soemthing stupid like that.



By the way I am interested if you could write guide how to get 2/3 win rate with mist elf merchants.

I can drop some base guideline:
- start in tutorial mode [in order to grab longbow+40 arrows, +cold wand, just ignore left side, I think gobla always drops Id scroll and heal pot, these can help too].
- start as Candle born [upcoming month selector will help]
-take TH into speed talents
- get village quests, back track to PC1 -- get few levels here while not touching closed doors.
- use cold wand to kill Hotz and his half-orcs -- this gives some gold to shop in BM [helmet is priority to keep stone blocks in check] and should boost to lv6.
- install healing by killing Jharod.
- proceed to explore VD -- target is to get something like wererat/werejackal and get them to VD7, which in tandem with TH should provide enough killable summons. Due to DL some good things should be generated soon enough. [mist elf HP reduction+Candle should allow to handle mobs, but I would recommend not exploring VD7 beyond first few rooms]
-proceed to PC -- goal is to clear vault assuming it is not mixed. Vault monsters drop more loot and DL once again is reasonable.
-proceed on CoC and rest of the game. No fancy stuff just regular careful play and grabbing guaranteed stuff [well, I would milk beggars for booze given you have guaranteed offensive wand early on, just lead the beggars out to wilderness and leave them, this will also reduce amount of hostile wilderness encounters[or at least I believe in that]].

It is arguable if doing druid question for resistance via necklace is better [vortices can be instakills and ogre magi too]. If you spend Hotz money on keys and prepare VD6 druid should be doable [in longish corridors due to darkness] with that longbow and arrows. I guess between Candle and herbs, Healing is meh [however, Candle makes healing better].

Blank4u47
12-18-2015, 01:02 AM
I have nothing against players using tactics like these luser, but they aren't any fun! How fun is a game that you spent days building into an uber monster, using tactics that mainly require as much thought as a trained monkey could muster? Press the buttons.... Repeat.... Fun!
Seriously, the game is much more fun if you just go and explore, fight for your life, get a level up now and then, if you get too good at the game, just set up a challenge for yourself! This game is infinitely replay able and these 'strategies' will only bore you eventually.

Shinae
12-18-2015, 04:05 AM
I guess that's one way to do it. I haven't even gotten my regular win yet. But that's probably because I never play wizards. I always go melee character who uses small amount of spells and maybe some missiles. Much more fun that way. I just wish pure melee that does not depend on lot of casting or missiles would be more viable option. Spellcasters have a lot easier life in adom.

grobblewobble
12-18-2015, 09:37 AM
To maximize stat gains you should wait with PoGA

Imo this is a very bad strategy and a common mistake. If you find a PoGA and you have the holy water, bless it and drink it. Do not even wait one turn.

There are a few reasons:

1. Dying with -3 hitpoints and three unused PoGA in your backpack is a terrible, terrible fail.
2. Diminishing returns. Raising your toughness from 10 to 15 has much more impact on your survivability than raising it from 20 to 25, and raising your toughness from 45 to 50 has almost no impact at all.
3. The game gets easier and easier as you progress, because your resources keep increasing. This means that you if you find any way to improve your character, you should use it NOW, in the early game, while you´re still weak.
4. Having a PoGA in your backpack destroyed by a trap before consuming it is also a big fail.

mjz15
12-18-2015, 01:27 PM
All of this is fine and dandy, and I must admit that I didn't take the trouble of reading through the entire Gnome Wizard guide, but a number of people seem to be having serious objections against the strategies you're using. And that is only to be expected. Anyway, if this works for you, who are we to say you shouldn't do it. Everybody has his own playstyle, his do's and don'ts (how do you even spell "don'ts"...), as demonstrated in the famous Treasure Hunter debate, and the more recent Teleportitis debate.

For me, I am yet to score my first ultra win. I will however never follow some kind of step-by-step guide. You do something, check. What's next? Check the guide. Do the next thing. Check. What's next? Check the guide. Do the next thing. Where the hell is the fun in that? Even if you completely agree with all the tactics and strategies in the guide. I think it's much more fun to play the game, and whenever you run into a problem, check the wiki or the guidebook, and if that doesn't answer your question, ask for advice on the forums.

And if anyone wants to follow some kind of guide to the letter: whatever floats your boat.

zliplus
12-18-2015, 01:43 PM
For ultras in particular, having a guide before you start is actually somewhat important, since there are some steps that are rather important. It certainly doesn't need a step by step (unless you do something wrong and need to research how to fix it!) though - as usual in ADOM the first steps are the most critical.

Edit: come to think of it, I think I have 3 PoGAs in my backpack on the gnome wizard I made just to get a win after repeated deaths around level 10.
This guide in particular though seems out-of-date to me. Neither herbs nor CoKs break potential now right?

Blank4u47
12-18-2015, 02:05 PM
For ultras in particular, having a guide before you start is actually somewhat important, since there are some steps that are rather important. It certainly doesn't need a step by step (unless you do something wrong and need to research how to fix it!) though - as usual in ADOM the first steps are the most critical.

Edit: come to think of it, I think I have 3 PoGAs in my backpack on the gnome wizard I made just to get a win after repeated deaths around level 10.
This guide in particular though seems out-of-date to me. Neither herbs nor CoKs break potential now right?

You are correct, he probably didn't notice the change due to gnomes having such high potentials in those areas.

I'm also not sure if he knows about the new feature with gardening which ends up being way more efficient than the method he described. Like I can seriously plant the entire big room and fight for a few minutes, then get all the herbs I need for the entire game.

zliplus
12-18-2015, 03:03 PM
Yeah, the gardening change makes life massively easier than dealing with growth patterns and needing to pick 4 bushs before a repop and blah blah blah...there was always the random instadoublepop that screwed you.

As for CoKs and potential, that gnome wizard I had started at 12 Learning, 20 potential which is pretty pathetic for a wizard. I always found mining for CoK incredibly difficult (in terms of surviving the boredom) even as a gnome, and that doesn't even consider the cost of pickaxe repairs. That's one part of the old guides that I never could understand.

Edit: finally hit 100 alch, and PoGA recipe is....ultra + youth (ultra + extra)...now I almost wish I took Jharod instead of gardening!

Blank4u47
12-18-2015, 05:00 PM
Ouch! The rng was not kind to you...and as far as the pick axes are concerned, with the mining skill, just mine a little bit like to straighten corridors so you can let the skill build naturally, and by the time mining is 100 you only need 1 pickaxe in your pack and it only takes 2 turns. If you limit mining to making your life easier, it's far less of a hassle, and you'll naturally get all the ore and crystals you need while you adventure.

And as for the PoGA recipe, that's just sad... Hope you find some potion shops! Look on the bright side though... You're playing a wizard! Don't need it!

luser
12-18-2015, 05:23 PM
For ultras in particular, having a guide before you start is actually somewhat important, since there are some steps that are rather important. It certainly doesn't need a step by step (unless you do something wrong and need to research how to fix it!) though - as usual in ADOM the first steps are the most critical.

Edit: come to think of it, I think I have 3 PoGAs in my backpack on the gnome wizard I made just to get a win after repeated deaths around level 10.
This guide in particular though seems out-of-date to me. Neither herbs nor CoKs break potential now right?
Weird, do you have save to see what you are doing wrong? Perhaps I omitted that from my guide. Most important step there is play as pure caster until you have spear+shield and pv 8+ then start meele easy monsters, preferably in wilderness/tension room to avoid surprises when you hold arrow.

No, its for current version you just didn't read it carefully enough. See claw bug section that will break dx potential to 30 then use trident of hunting from bug temple to hunt wraiths summoned by master liches from graves to break to potential.As learning I wrote that first step is anwser questions and always choose one that increases learning(its quite easy to guess what are these). I rarely seen gnome wizard with Le potential less than 30.

zliplus
12-18-2015, 05:31 PM
Ouch! The rng was not kind to you...and as far as the pick axes are concerned, with the mining skill, just mine a little bit like to straighten corridors so you can let the skill build naturally, and by the time mining is 100 you only need 1 pickaxe in your pack and it only takes 2 turns. If you limit mining to making your life easier, it's far less of a hassle, and you'll naturally get all the ore and crystals you need while you adventure.

And as for the PoGA recipe, that's just sad... Hope you find some potion shops! Look on the bright side though... You're playing a wizard! Don't need it!

Oh for sure, I was referring to guides I've read previously about farming infinite CoKs early in the game (such as with ants) - I tried them out some as a newbie and found it ridiculously unfeasible.

Blank4u47
12-18-2015, 05:42 PM
Ah, I see. Maybe the problem lies in your gemology skill? You get a gem almost every time and higher quality (I think) if it's at 100 making the strategy far more effective.

luser
12-18-2015, 05:53 PM
Yeah, the gardening change makes life massively easier than dealing with growth patterns and needing to pick 4 bushs before a repop and blah blah blah...there was always the random instadoublepop that screwed you.

As for CoKs and potential, that gnome wizard I had started at 12 Learning, 20 potential which is pretty pathetic for a wizard. I always found mining for CoK incredibly difficult (in terms of surviving the boredom) even as a gnome, and that doesn't even consider the cost of pickaxe repairs. That's one part of the old guides that I never could understand.

Edit: finally hit 100 alch, and PoGA recipe is....ultra + youth (ultra + extra)...now I almost wish I took Jharod instead of gardening!

As I previously replied on thread gardening is still useless, mainly as you get it too late as you should wait for torc after precrowning but you want morgia now and even then its faster to do pattern than bother with seeds. Besides you have fire bolt/burning hands to instantly trim herbs.

And as CoK mining this is why I said that this guide does light scumming as you let ant do mining instead which is just few minutes of w5 in locked room, then leading ants to next level.

Blank4u47
12-18-2015, 06:01 PM
As I previously replied on thread gardening is still useless, mainly as you get it too late as you should wait for torc after precrowning but you want morgia now and even then its faster to do pattern than bother with seeds. Besides you have fire bolt/burning hands to instantly trim herbs.
Not true. If you gather seeds from herb bushes as you adventure in random dungeons, you can plant hundreds of herb bushes in 1 round of herb growth. You'll be set for the entire game in about 2 rounds of growth and can pick more every time you pass them by. This can be done very early in the game, especially if you aren't playing a gnome, as they level up too fast. Also, who cares about a precrown anyways? It's usually garbage comparable to the black torc and you'll just find a few guaranteed in the frost giant caves anyways.

zliplus
12-18-2015, 06:30 PM
You can precrown even with the black torc and the si...as long as you only go for 1. Level 14 is easy to get on a gnome. Multiple precrowns is super annoying to do now (unless you exploit gems/gold) without a cavernous level altar so 1 is usually all you'd want.

Regarding gemology...maybe it is skill then...I certainly don't recall seeing anywhere near a gem every time (more like 1 per 10 or less).

As far the bug temple...wasn't this supposed to be a *newbie* guide? Newbies can't even enter the bug temple. I consider stepping foot inside the bug temple a scarier and a higher probability of death than just doing the entire ultra run. Furthermore, your guide says to make repeated trips between bug temple and HMV carrying corpses each time...when are you going to do the circle, day 270?

JellySlayer
12-18-2015, 07:03 PM
I wouldn't really consider it a newbie guide. Newbies should not be worrying about ultras, IMHO. If you can close the gate for your first win, you should be very happy.

luser
12-18-2015, 11:12 PM
Not true. If you gather seeds from herb bushes as you adventure in random dungeons, you can plant hundreds of herb bushes in 1 round of herb growth. You'll be set for the entire game in about 2 rounds of growth and can pick more every time you pass them by.

Thats very suspect as level with herbs will likely have stable pattern so I just don't believe that you encountered hundreds of herbs without finding any pattern that could be stable. And what do you exactly mean by early game? For wizards its definitely possible to just descend to CoC and get holy water blessed at dwarftown to fix 2x1 patch.



This can be done very early in the game, especially if you aren't playing a gnome, as they level up too fast. Also, who cares about a precrown anyways? It's usually garbage comparable to the black torc and you'll just find a few guaranteed in the frost giant caves anyways.

Only demented ones.



Oh, there's a precrown in there too? And you say this is a fast game?

And also


You can precrown even with the black torc and the si...as long as you only go for 1. Level 14 is easy to get on a gnome. Multiple precrowns is super annoying to do now (unless you exploit gems/gold) without a cavernous level altar so 1 is usually all you'd want.


This depends if you will find altar before dwarftown or not. Without altar its around ten extra turns of selling gems for ~100000 gold and getting precrown, if there is altar elsewhere you could do second precrown. By the way previous strategy didn't have ant mining and did two precrowns at lvl 20 if there is altar by sacrificing stone giants and creating cavern level.



As far the bug temple...wasn't this supposed to be a *newbie* guide? Newbies can't even enter the bug temple. I consider stepping foot inside the bug temple a scarier and a higher probability of death than just doing the entire ultra run. Furthermore, your guide says to make repeated trips between bug temple and HMV carrying corpses each time...when are you going to do the circle, day 270?

That would be normaly true but gnome wizards are the easiest class, you should just try it. With farsigth and blasting all bugs with bookcasted 2radius improved fireballs to kill everything before it gets two squares away and with bit of skill there is zero risk of dying except of entering temple which is indeed tricky, but with 100 stealth bugs wont be waken and improved fireball of on lower bugs wont wake upper ones.

Blank4u47
12-18-2015, 11:44 PM
Seriously? Do you just not know how to use gardening to gather seeds? You go along and 'a'pply gardening skill to herb bushes you identified as "blossoming" by 'a'pplying herbalism. You gather 1-2 seeds per successful application of gardening. No blessed holy water needed. Then you plant a decent sized room with the seeds, no patterns required beyond the 2x2 patch. Very newbie friendly.

By early game I am referring to pre-dwarf quests, which means lvls 1-17 to me.

Why would a wizard need an extra artifact? It's not as if they don't have spells for every occasion, and the time spent on pre-crowning is generally boring by any standards, with the reward generally being the black book or soaker. Every now and then you'd get something good, true. But instead of wasting your time pre-crowning you could just be exploring the random caves, or FGJC finding sweet gear and/ or artifacts.

Edit: I do have to say this though. Thank you for the idea to play a mist elf merchant! It's actually a ton of fun, my first roll died, but my 2nd attempt is lvl 9 now, and maybe one of the easiest races to play merchant with, as they start with a mithril short sword and get decent prices for black market stuff.

JellySlayer
12-19-2015, 02:53 AM
Seriously? Do you just not know how to use gardening to gather seeds? You go along and 'a'pply gardening skill to herb bushes you identified as "blossoming" by 'a'pplying herbalism. You gather 1-2 seeds per successful application of gardening. No blessed holy water needed. Then you plant a decent sized room with the seeds, no patterns required beyond the 2x2 patch. Very newbie friendly.

By early game I am referring to pre-dwarf quests, which means lvls 1-17 to me.

Why would a wizard need an extra artifact? It's not as if they don't have spells for every occasion, and the time spent on pre-crowning is generally boring by any standards, with the reward generally being the black book or soaker. Every now and then you'd get something good, true. But instead of wasting your time pre-crowning you could just be exploring the random caves, or FGJC finding sweet gear and/ or artifacts.

Edit: I do have to say this though. Thank you for the idea to play a mist elf merchant! It's actually a ton of fun, my first roll died, but my 2nd attempt is lvl 9 now, and maybe one of the easiest races to play merchant with, as they start with a mithril short sword and get decent prices for black market stuff.

And if you roll a potion merchant, you have a chance to get that coveted PoEX right away.

Blank4u47
12-19-2015, 03:08 AM
And if you roll a potion merchant, you have a chance to get that coveted PoEX right away.

Funny thing, I did roll a potion merchant, born on the falcon, no potion of exchange but I was happy with my potential str at 16. I'm actually happy playing mist elves with their normal setup, already found 2 books, looking forward to testing a merchants casting potential :)

luser
12-19-2015, 11:01 AM
I wanted to reply for this after I do playtesting, that I now done.


XP loss is minimal for extra speed, especially for a gnome of all things. Doubly so if you intend on doing emperor moloch for XP anyway. Wizards get plenty of castings, so it's not like they need to bookcast anyway.


You are saying that it doesn't hurt too much which doesn't change fact that it hurts. Its worse than useless talents. They don't change how many of times I die, almost no deaths are from I need extra turn, they are mostly when I forget to turn on coward and ghul/elf priestess paralyses me or when I don't notice monster.

As bookcasting it isn't about need but about convience, repeatedly casting teleport and magic map on each level would certainly exceed memory castings if you could get only books from library.



Heir gift lets you visit the crumbling cave at level 1. You can level there much more efficiently than anywhere else in the early game, including BugWil in 1.1.1.

I needed to playtest that and its very bad suggestion. In early game gnome wizards don't need levels, they need items. Levels cause spawning of harder monsters and when you have only single spellbook of fire bolt with limited castings its losing situation.

So what exactly do you want to gain in crumbling cave? I tried that and I am still convinced that selling wand is better. Half of time I couldn't find cave, and if I do using wand is underwhelming. I often died in situations like you see stone giant/dragon, he throws rock/breathes on you. You die. One time I could get to lvl 10 when wand run out.

Still completely pointless as I could get lvl 10 without that much risk by just taking threat rooms in id while I search for blink dog. And as you want teleport control you need to do that anyway.






I never do the raider lord quest. Not worth the time/effort at all. You can get more XP from killing one swamp hydra.

That reply is both correct and useless as you don't do that for xp even that it takes about same time to find lord as to find hydra. Its about early cash.




Depends what you mean by efficiently. I'm pretty sure I could win 3 characters in the time it takes you to win 1.

Pretty much any character strong enough to get the ToTRR and paralysis resist can kill Andy. I've beaten him easily with stats in the 30s, no smithing or any other nonsense.

I really honestly doubt this. What's your typical play time?

This taken me most time as when I tested characters I mostly stopped at bugcav entry after first two ultras to check if something changed (And didn't take logs so I don't know how much time it took.) So I started character that got very lucky and after 10 hours of playing until I could cast wish to save Khelly followed by killing archmage and with new corruption easily become archmage. After looking on characters I would estimate it would take me around 20 hours for one ultra so could you make video how to get ultra in 7 hours? I assume that you would roll wizards until you get ligthing ball and then try poolsips.

Soirana
12-19-2015, 11:20 AM
So I started character that got very lucky and after 10 hours of playing until I could cast wish to save Khelly followed by killing archmage and with new corruption easily become archmage. After looking on characters I would estimate it would take me around 20 hours for one ultra so could you make video how to get ultra in 7 hours?
There is no need to estimate. Wins leave flg file in your directory, at the bottom of the file there is exact time played.
Ultras I did for achievements took 12-14 hours, but I tend to leave Adom on if I get phone call. Oh, that was thieves and monks, who need more care in early game not wizards. Real life time however is more about on faster decision making and not turncount, thus I believe experience in Adom is more important, than tactical approach. [starting with something like barbarian or wizard is recommended, although]
I can't find at moment but I think Sami was beating game in under 3 hours at some point, which would make him like twice faster than me. I am not sure if current server stores games for replay [like tyrrec] but you can try searching if you are really interested.

sweetnothing
12-23-2015, 03:19 PM
The only reasons I visit ID [after stairhopping was fixed] are Filk, sceptre and blink dogs. If played ultraconservative [which means no SMC at start and so on] win rate would 19/20 or soemthing stupid like that.


I can drop some base guideline:
- start in tutorial mode [in order to grab longbow+40 arrows, +cold wand, just ignore left side, I think gobla always drops Id scroll and heal pot, these can help too].
- start as Candle born [upcoming month selector will help]
-take TH into speed talents
- get village quests, back track to PC1 -- get few levels here while not touching closed doors.
- use cold wand to kill Hotz and his half-orcs -- this gives some gold to shop in BM [helmet is priority to keep stone blocks in check] and should boost to lv6.
- install healing by killing Jharod.
- proceed to explore VD -- target is to get something like wererat/werejackal and get them to VD7, which in tandem with TH should provide enough killable summons. Due to DL some good things should be generated soon enough. [mist elf HP reduction+Candle should allow to handle mobs, but I would recommend not exploring VD7 beyond first few rooms]
-proceed to PC -- goal is to clear vault assuming it is not mixed. Vault monsters drop more loot and DL once again is reasonable.
-proceed on CoC and rest of the game. No fancy stuff just regular careful play and grabbing guaranteed stuff [well, I would milk beggars for booze given you have guaranteed offensive wand early on, just lead the beggars out to wilderness and leave them, this will also reduce amount of hostile wilderness encounters[or at least I believe in that]].

It is arguable if doing druid question for resistance via necklace is better [vortices can be instakills and ogre magi too]. If you spend Hotz money on keys and prepare VD6 druid should be doable [in longish corridors due to darkness] with that longbow and arrows. I guess between Candle and herbs, Healing is meh [however, Candle makes healing better].

I can add something. I highly recommend buying keys in the early game + detect traps a bit later. Walking in Coward mode is preferable in the early game, especially if there are monsters that can throw stuff (goblin rockthrowers can insta-kill you early on). These monsters better to be killed in melee where they use their ranged attacks much less often. For all other monsters you should preferably use ranged attacks to train corresponding skills. This is important because vortices can instakill you if you haven't get rid of them fast enough later in mid-game.

Early crowning is preferable (unless you plan ultra) since there's a crowning artifact that gives elemental immunities. PC:2 is dangerous early, better skip it until good weapon and armor are found. But it's necessary to return here for guaranteed acid resistance.

First aid skill is your best friend.

Sixth Sense talent should be good if you managed to roll good Pe. I recommend starting with speed talents also. Regarding TH, I don't know. Maybe it would be better to pick PV line of talents faster up to Immune to Pain.

What is good for Mist elves, it's their skills. Concentrate on increasing them. It's, like, guaranteed cat ring, no joke.

Unidentified weapons and especially armor are dangerous. Equip them only if you have the way to get rid of them if they are cursed and vulgar metal.

Overall, this R/C is doable, but you should put more thinking into early game. When I rolled an elven archer after this, I quicky stopped playing because lost interest. All early game location were too easy, so "hard" R/C combination have their own advantages.