Wanting to win! Advice needed.

[Automater]

Hi guys,

I've been playing ADOM for probably close to ten years and sadly I haven't been able to win legitimately. I killed Andor once savescumming for wishes in dark forge, but anyway...

I would very much like to win the game legit, but I just can't seem to do it. I think my main problem in playing too quickly and haphazardly mid game. I don't think I've even managed to obtain the fire orb but maybe once. I like to play DE Beastfighters so I can skip the early game and head straight for the HMV and eat the Oracle corpse asap. I always level healing dodge athletics and herbalism first. I've made it up to level 20ish a number of other times with different R/C combos but it always seems I stumble into a doppelgänger lord, a mimic hive mind, or some other nasty thing and die. Ca you guys offer some advice for completing the ToEF? I like to play DE/HE or Troll assassins too. I try to level up skills with ranged, but I just can't seem to put it all together. Maybe there's a better race or class I should try? Obviously after playing for so long I feel like I should be able to win the game... It's truly a testament to this games longevity and replay value, and puts popular console games of the era to shame. I love it! Any advice or advanced tips are appreciated. Thanks!

[zliplus]

I'll start by discussing your class - beastfighters grow to be extremely strong at higher levels, but they are not that easy to play early. You have to be careful with what you attack and preferably raise archery as well to deal with tougher creatures (karmics, liches, etc). Probably the easiest class to start off with is weaponsmith - detect trap, fire resistance, and high strength off the bat makes the early going much safer, and their long term prospects are also excellent. Easy smithing means you can boost PV/DV extremely high in early or mid game with relatively low effort. Fire immunity at level 32 means you can always take on ToEF, even if you have to grind through IQD and random dungeons to do it.

[pjsb1]

You could always try the easy classes, my only 2 wins are a troll barbarian and a dwarven elementalist. I also had a wizard poised to win that died to a statue. Anyway, assassins and beastfighters are definitely harder to use than some other classes imo so I would recommend playing whichever one of the easier classes you like to play most. I would also recommend watching playthroughs that beat the game, that helped me a ton (even though I just wanted to watch it for fun, it's actually quite insightful).

[Blank4u47]

if you want to keep playing beastfighters, I highly recommend hurthling beastfighters, it was my first 'breakthrough' character, it got me past the ToEF the first time, mainly because they have great physical stats - minus str of course. But they gain ranks in slings very fast, and that quickly makes up for lack of decent ammo. Try male born on dragon for extra str.

I also recommend you do carpenter quest and puppy cave, some of the stuff I get in pc 6 gets me through mid-game.

Edit: I'd like to know what's been killing you in ToEF, it'd help me know what advice to give.

[SinsI]

I think the easiest character to play is Mist Elven Necromancer that starts with Heir - you get awesome weapon right from the start, very high Learning and spellbooks to use it (and close combat is far more dangerous than ranged ones), some awesome skills (food preservation, appraising, herbalism), undead slaves or golems (latter can be healed) to deal with cats, karmics and oozes and safely lead you in the Small Cave to blanket; you also start with some potions so you can luck into potion of invisibility to rob the Black Market. If you find a healing spellbook, you can go to the village dungeon and heal your golems to fix their main early game disadvantage (low HP) by getting lots of potions of ultra healing.

You might also want to aim for precrowning or Wish from a pool in the early game (a lot of the posts in the YAVP indicate that people either lucked into some powerful weapon in SMC or grinded to get 1-2 precrownings).

[yhal003]

I think the easiest character to play is Mist Elven Necromancer that starts with Heir - you get awesome weapon right from the start, very high Learning and spellbooks to use it (and close combat is far more dangerous than ranged ones), some awesome skills (food preservation, appraising, herbalism), undead slaves or golems (latter can be healed) to deal with cats, karmics and oozes and safely lead you in the Small Cave to blanket

And enough HP to get one-shot at level 20. This is one of the strangest combinations to be considered easiest. That said, some people manage to play decades as paladins and barbarians to finally win as mist elven thief or some such.

[SinsI]

And enough HP to get one-shot at level 20. This is one of the strangest combinations to be considered easiest. That said, some people manage to play decades as paladins and barbarians to finally win as mist elven thief or some such.


Failed paralyzation/stunning/confusion is enough to insta-kill any melee character (and is the usual reason my mid-level characters die), so they are not better off. Having enormous ranged magical attack, numerous utility spells and slaves to protect you is a much better solution than some extra HP.
Other characters have to rely on getting lucky - finding an outstanding item or an altar in a densely populated cave or a wish from a pool - while this one relies on not getting too unlucky.

I've just leisurely cleaned out a room full of 21 Ogre Magi as a lvl 10 Mist Necro. For practically every other combination - that would spell death.

[Soirana]

stunning/confusion is enough to insta-kill any melee character
ROFL.....
Stun is not an issue and you get free resistance on AMW, but in general it happens if you a crit for a lot and best solution is to pray which both heals and clears stun.
Confusion - needs resistance in some situations, but I can't see how necro/wizard fairs any better.
Para resist in an issue, but you have pools and neck slot to fix that.

Overall, yes magic is easier to play than melee, but what advantages has mistelf necro over drake wizard? [wizzie has lower magic costs, more diverse book selection and skill dices which allow to raise skills]

[Shinae]

Like SinsI said, if you constantly die to these confusion/paralysis things you should keep some sort of resistance always equipped.

For race/class combos I can recommend Dwarf Paladin. Good starting equipment and dwarves have good toughness, so you get good hp easily and detect traps is a great skill too. Paladins also have 1/3 chance to get crowned with sword Justifier. It does awesome damage and has some decent slaying properties too. Paladins have good melee, but also get ok casting abilities in mid game.

Tower of Eternal Flame is one of the hardest places in game. I do just about everything I can before it. Random dungeons, Ice queen, frost king jarl caves, High Kings, Dark Forge, Pyramid, Graveyard etc. Try finding Fire Immunity (Crowning or even worth wishing Red dragon scale mails imo to get it) if you haven't got immunity otherwise. Ring of Ice is great thing to have in tower. If I can't find one I try ring dipping to get one, usually I get one by dipping if all locations fail me.

I used to die around 20ies too. Then I learned what locations to clear and in what order. And that got me my first win. Took me 10 years too, you are not far from your first win. Beating ToEF is the real barrier here.

[SinsI]

Overall, yes magic is easier to play than melee, but what advantages has mistelf necro over drake wizard? [wizzie has lower magic costs, more diverse book selection and skill dices which allow to raise skills]
Much higher Learning and Mana (which is enormous boost for casters), Dodge, Appraising (thus early improvement of your armor), ultra weapon right from the start (wizards get useless wand of fire as Heir gift - what's the point if they can cast it themselves?), slaves to paralyze and melee cats and other enemies you don't want to touch...
You also get double the effect from PV in melee.

Drake wizards might get their spells cheaper - but Mist Necors get more PP so they can still cast all the high cost spells, and low cost spells quickly get the same cost reduction through Effectiveness since they can cast them more out of memory due to much higher Learning score.

About the only thing Mist Necros have to worry about is traps, though Alertness and Dodge help mitigate it somewhat, and it becomes non-problem after you boost you HP with blessed potions of Ultra Healing..

[yhal003]

Failed paralyzation/stunning/confusion is enough to insta-kill any melee character (and is the usual reason my mid-level characters die), so they are not better off. Having enormous ranged magical attack, numerous utility spells and slaves to protect you is a much better solution than some extra HP.
Other characters have to rely on getting lucky - finding an outstanding item or an altar in a densely populated cave or a wish from a pool - while this one relies on not getting too unlucky.

I've just leisurely cleaned out a room full of 21 Ogre Magi as a lvl 10 Mist Necro. For practically every other combination - that would spell death.
Gray elves are as almost as good at casting (Le over 20 has diminishing returns and mana gains are too random to benefit from higher Ma score). Wizards have better class powers and start with a healing skill. Slaves are not that important to compensate for that. Mist necro's heir weapon is impressive, but with no PV and very little HP it is not an excuse to get into melee. Barbs get away with swinging that super powerful two-hander because they have a good chance to survive a miss.

"Not getting too unlucky" means they do not die from trap early (or in mid game), are not killed by a single rock thrown by a giant or a titan's quarrel. And I don't think mist elf necromancers have guarantied means of cold resistance, so they have no intrinsic advantages over other RC combos against ogre mages. In fact lack of HP is a big disadvantage against any elemental attack.

And while casters are more powerful, they are not necessarily easier to win with. Depends on your play style.

EDIT:


Appraising (thus early improvement of your armor),
Please tell me this is trolling.

[SinsI]

Gray elves are as almost as good at casting (Le over 20 has diminishing returns
Depends on play style - for me it is the opposite, as higher Le allows to just memorize all the books and don't worry about them getting destroyed, and profit from extra Effectiveness.


Please tell me this is trolling.
If you don't stumble upon an early convenient altar or miscellaneous shop, Appraising is an excellent skill that allows you to safely test items you've picked up without the risk of putting on cursed or worse equipment.


Slaves are not that important to compensate for that
Don't underestimate slaves and golems! Create a few in Animated Forest or Big Room and wait for them to become lvl 40+ - and you have an ultimate grinding machine that churns out AoLS and RoDS without making your enemies stronger...


they have no intrinsic advantages over other RC combos against ogre mages.
Ability to one or two-hit them in melee is a very good intrinsic advantage unavailable to most other RC combos. And I had 100+PP and 300+ in CSW so a few ice bolts were easily compensated for.

[Soirana]

Much higher Learning and Mana (which is enormous boost for casters), Dodge, Appraising (thus early improvement of your armor), ultra weapon right from the start (wizards get useless wand of fire as Heir gift - what's the point if they can cast it themselves?), slaves to paralyze and melee cats and other enemies you don't want to touch...
You also get double the effect from PV in melee.

Drake wizards might get their spells cheaper - but Mist Necors get more PP so they can still cast all the high cost spells, and low cost spells quickly get the same cost reduction through Effectiveness since they can cast them more out of memory due to much higher Learning score.

About the only thing Mist Necros have to worry about is traps, though Alertness and Dodge help mitigate it somewhat, and it becomes non-problem after you boost you HP with blessed potions of Ultra Healing..
Let's sort things:
Le - necros don't get decent learning... average mist elf necro has ~3-4 points higher than drake wizard. At this ratio I take extra toughness over learning any day.
Ma - mana is easiest stat to train. Not a factor.
Dodge - with necros skill dices you get maybe 2DV in midgame, not a factor
Apraising --- okay, I picked myself from the laughing floor again.
Weapon - casters best weapon is spellbooks, and that staff just prevents using shield. Cute but not a factor in long run and at start I'd rather not play russian rullete with every door (exploding runes means dead mist elf)
Cats- you are not melee char, why you need ring?
PV melee --- the thing is melee hits are last thing to worry for wizard and instead you have lousy HP for real threats.
Tell me how you reduce acid ball to 60% in easy way...

Ultra pot farming... boo for scumming...

I fail to see how mist elf is better than drake vs ogre magi... more HP and can spit if run out of PP... and mist elf.. offers nothing?

[Soirana]

If you don't stumble upon an early convenient altar or miscellaneous shop, Appraising is an excellent skill that allows you to safely test items you've picked up without the risk of putting on cursed or worse equipment.

You will kill me today...
yeah, Apraising.... early on... wait...

[SinsI]

yeah, Apraising.... early on... wait...
It is 2-3 PV from those random leather caps, boots, gloves or clothes that others don't even try to put on. Which to Mist elf is equivalent to 4-6 PV.

Ma - mana is easiest stat to train. Not a factor.
Drake wizards have a "high" potential ceiling of 22-23 - the amount Mist Necros start with.

Dodge - with necros skill dices you get maybe 2DV in midgame, not a factor
DV is useless, but it helps evade combat magic.

Weapon - casters best weapon is spellbooks, and that staff just prevents using shield
It is not about "best weapon", it is about "most points covered". Plenty of monsters are impervious to magic or melee - but none that are immune to spells, pets, arrows and your own melee might.


Tell me how you reduce acid ball to 60% in an easy way
get >60% more PP, 5-10 extra Effectiveness and higher PP regeneration rate.


Ultra pot farming... boo for scumming...
Like 60% of posts in YAVP mention 1-2 _precrownings_. Which is a hell of a lot harder and bothersome to farm than to order one of your golems to hit another and casting a healing spell on him.

[Soirana]

It is 2-3 PV from those random leather caps, boots, gloves or clothes that others don't even try to put on. Which to Mist elf is equivalent to 4-6 PV.

DV is useless, but it helps evade combat magic.

It is not about "best weapon", it is about "most points covered". Plenty of monsters are impervious to magic or melee - but none that are immune to spells, pets, arrows and your own melee might.

Like 60% posts in YAVP mention 1-2 _precrownings_. Which is a hell of a lot harder and bothersome to farm than to order one of your golems to hit another and casting a healing spell on him.
Please make video demonstrating how you effectively use Apraising before dwarftown (after you have altar) with random necro.

And please share your testing on Dodge affecting combat magic. As far as I know extra DV helps with dodging spells. Direct dodge effect is rumor at best.

I don't know a monster truly impervious to magic missile. Wait... necros get very little of that because they drown in frost bolt. I don't play wizards, but few times I did the only real combat spells I was interested were burning hands, MM and ball (preferably acid). 3 of these cover all offense you ever need. Personally I do not consider shield being optional for caster (unless roleplay or whatever).
Look, in the essence necros are weaker version of wizards, they get basically nothing to show as class.

Well, people scuffed at dragon gold doubling, piety overflow, etc. Milking HP is in same boat from my point of view. It would be good if precrowns would be replaced with something involving brain activity too.
It's a personal thing where someone draws line of acceptable tactiocs, but if you milk HP to a point it makes differential in mid game, you might as well say ToEF is not an issue for any caster cause you can milk 200 extraHP and smith extra 30PV and 30DV. Somehow people don't do that even if it is actually optimal for maximizing win chances.

[blunk]

Hi guys,

I've been playing ADOM for probably close to ten years and sadly I haven't been able to win legitimately. I killed Andor once savescumming for wishes in dark forge, but anyway...

I would very much like to win the game legit, but I just can't seem to do it. I think my main problem in playing too quickly and haphazardly mid game. I don't think I've even managed to obtain the fire orb but maybe once. I like to play DE Beastfighters so I can skip the early game and head straight for the HMV and eat the Oracle corpse asap. I always level healing dodge athletics and herbalism first. I've made it up to level 20ish a number of other times with different R/C combos but it always seems I stumble into a doppelgänger lord, a mimic hive mind, or some other nasty thing and die. Ca you guys offer some advice for completing the ToEF? I like to play DE/HE or Troll assassins too. I try to level up skills with ranged, but I just can't seem to put it all together. Maybe there's a better race or class I should try? Obviously after playing for so long I feel like I should be able to win the game... It's truly a testament to this games longevity and replay value, and puts popular console games of the era to shame. I love it! Any advice or advanced tips are appreciated. Thanks!

Eating the Oracle means you get doomed/cursed (not sure if both) this makes you a lot more susceptible to paralyze, item destruction, traps and other sad things.
Go back to hmw and eat her when you've crowned and then straight back to nearest altar to get rid of it.
You won't get the super early learning boost but thats fine, trust me.

Doppleganger lord should not be an issue past early game even with low willpower, for mimics, use amulet of free action if you don't have one, crowned+ankh gives somewhat good chances to avoid paralyze.

Leave the Troll race behind for now, dark elves are very strong but if you're struggling you should really try a couple of dwarves, drakeling are even considered stronger but if you're inexperinced the lack of early pv can be an issue.

Consider trying a different class with healing skill like paladin, ranger or healer.

Wait with TOEF until you've done Tomb of the high king and Ice queens quests (one or two of them, the other arent really worth) then you'll be lvl 25+.

[zliplus]

Ultra healing farming for hp is incredibly slow and painful from what i recall. 2 hp per potion?

While the evil races have more raw power (troll, DE, orc) the good races are overall much safer/friendlier. Dwarf/hurthling/gnome all get good to great toughness, overall potentials, and friendly prices at dwarftown which is incredibly powerful - you can train up basically every stat to high teens without too much difficulty.

[Automater]

Eating the Oracle means you get doomed/cursed (not sure if both) this makes you a lot more susceptible to paralyze, item destruction, traps and other sad things.
Go back to hmw and eat her when you've crowned and then straight back to nearest altar to get rid of it.
You won't get the super early learning boost but thats fine, trust me.

Doppleganger lord should not be an issue past early game even with low willpower, for mimics, use amulet of free action if you don't have one, crowned+ankh gives somewhat good chances to avoid paralyze.

Leave the Troll race behind for now, dark elves are very strong but if you're struggling you should really try a couple of dwarves, drakeling are even considered stronger but if you're inexperinced the lack of early pv can be an issue.

Consider trying a different class with healing skill like paladin, ranger or healer.

Wait with TOEF until you've done Tomb of the high king and Ice queens quests (one or two of them, the other arent really worth) then you'll be lvl 25+.

Hey not sure how the thread got transformed into a mist necro vs drake wizzie debate but Imo necromancers are garbage and wizards are too tedious for me. I prefer Melee. I won't kill the oracle until I find an altar, I know how quick death follows dooming, and the straight to HMv strategy is usually just for beast fighters. I will definitely try to level up higher before attempting toef. Usually I head there after dwarf town quests and after clearing the pyramid, around 17 or 18.

[Blank4u47]

Hey not sure how the thread got transformed into a mist necro vs drake wizzie debate but Imo necromancers are garbage and wizards are too tedious for me. I prefer Melee. I won't kill the oracle until I find an altar, I know how quick death follows dooming, and the straight to HMv strategy is usually just for beast fighters. I will definitely try to level up higher before attempting toef. Usually I head there after dwarf town quests and after clearing the pyramid, around 17 or 18.

It would be much safer to attempt fire tower until after lvl 22 or so, so maybe do ice queen quests first? You'll get a much needed boost to str and willpower that way, which will make the tower easier. Also, practice bows or xbows to lvl8 or so and carry demon or dragon slaying ammo for ACW, it'll make your life easier.

[Shinae]

Usually I head there after dwarf town quests and after clearing the pyramid, around 17 or 18.

Way too early. I wouldn't step in ToEF that low level. You can succeed with right equipment and bit of luck, but even unlucky crit from Fire elemental can mean insta death. I always do Ice queen, griffiyard, Frost jarl caves, high kings and even dark forge before ToEF. Unless I know I have good equips, good hp pool and ways to defeat ACW. I get Water Orb too before tower, unless I have good stuff. That +10 Wi can be useful in tower.

[Soirana]

Hi guys,

I try to level up skills with ranged, but I just can't seem to put it all together.

and wizards are too tedious for me.

Well, if you want no missiles and no spells, play something like dwarf barb and at some point farm ~20 pots of booze (that is overkill, but it should cover you for the rest of game).


Way too early. I wouldn't step in ToEF that low level. You can succeed with right equipment and bit of luck, but even unlucky crit from Fire elemental can mean insta death.
Let's sort basics --
fire elementals are rather rare in first 3 floors and ones in temple should not be disturbed if assault is done properly. (check Steam guide if you need advice on that);
unless you are wearing something like crown of science crits typically produce saving throw leaving at least 1hp (need certain percentage of health prior to that, don't recall exact % right now).

Overall, getting unlucky at lv18 in frost giant caves is more likely than in ToEF (for melee char, casters I am not sure).
ToEF is not half bad as you try to picture - Kings ring, elemental gauntlets + intrinsic covers fire damage, mystic always gives ring of ice if you talk with him as neutral. As long as you do not camp in there and bring few blessed invisibility potions things should be just fine even without water orb - dwarven quests should produce enough healing potions and for Wyrm lure out and disable is priority anyway.

[zliplus]

When I went to ToEF at 21 with a DE BF, I had to run away from the wyrm because I couldn't do enough damage to him in melee, and come back with slaying ammunition. It should certainly be possible, but requires a lot of caution. Definitely grind to level 18 first though, why do anything as level 17 when that amazing class ability is so close?

[Soirana]

When I went to ToEF at 21 with a DE BF, I had to run away from the wyrm because I couldn't do enough damage to him in melee,
Offensive wand + couple blessed pots of booze, typically gets job done.

From my experience if melee is not cutting, the answer is almost always booze...;)

[Automater]

Ok, I've got a great de beast fighter going and an altar on SMC right next to the down staircase, I'm going to get pre crowned, boost my learning and do dwarf quests, pyramid, graveyard, get Rothk, then clear the random dungeons, do the ice queen quests, clear dark forge, obtain the water orb then hopefully be 25+ and attempt the toef using any wands I have, hopefully I can get some slaying ammo. Wish me luck & thx for the tips.

[Blasphemous]

I'd advice against precrowning in SMC - the first high level undead or golem will screw you big time as neither can be sacced and both are fairly common. Corpse fiends past lvl 10-15 are deadly for such chars, as are stone statues.

[SinsI]

I'd advice against precrowning in SMC - the first high level undead or golem will screw you big time as neither can be sacced and both are fairly common. Corpse fiends past lvl 10-15 are deadly for such chars, as are stone statues.

He can get piety while low level and lvl up to 8/11 afterward.

[Tyrnyx]

I prefer Melee.

Me too. And I've won with every class except for assassins (I'm trying to do an ultra on them). For my advice:

1. Run away when things are hard. Don't take on mixed tension rooms or vaults until your several levels higher than you would take on a normal room. You DONT have to clear a whole room if you open it. They can kill you, just avoid them. If you get them just run to the stairs. Risk reward is something you get a feel for the more you play.
2. If you are fortunate enough to get an early wish (I like to clear out pools in the HMV if my character is only midling in strength, if they're doing very well then avoid pools typically) I would suggest either rings! of regeneration (especially if you don't have healing) or red dragon scale mails. I would suggest not getting an AoLS - especially with the reduction on the rate of corruptions, Khelly's gifts are only midling for a non-spell caster.
3. Even if you prefer melee, some levels in missile skills is incredibly helpful. Somewhere in the mid-game take your biggest stack of arrows and/or bolts and fire them all in the big room. Save slaying ammo. Then use that ammo when your in a tight situation. Particularly useful is just plain slaying ammo or humanoid.
4. Raven birthsign is amazing. +10 speed is strong and getting the trident at 16 is silly powerful. It can easily be gotten if you have a blessed ring of the fish (or helm or amulet of water breathing), and either (a) invisibility or (b) teleport control and the guaranteed wand of teleport. I've done it without water breathing but that's a dicey proposition and I would not suggest it. The trident makes a really strong missile so I suggest it even for beastfighters.
5. Get crowned. It's often a great way to buff your PV/DV or your damage. Dwarves and Hurthlings have easier crownings since they get full value at Waldy and they can sell accumulated crap to get large mounds of money. Hurthlings also can cook corpses and sac them for good value. Other easy methods of crowning include: having an alter on a cavernous level (or up or downstairs is doable provided the alter is close enough). Places to look: above/below the big room. Vault levels (always explore these for opening a vault). Puppy cave (level 10+). Putrid caves (level 15+). TotHK (level 18+).
6. That said: play a class with good crowning gifts. I also prefer a class-race combo that can get 25 in toughness by default - dwarves or orcs. Munching on cursed morgia roots (the top and bottom row herbs of any level) to up your To is great.
7. Know when to pray. Don't forget about it but never rely on it. After praying sac that worthless pile of gold you've been hauling around with you. It serves no other purpose. (I never look through the casino)
8. Don't kick down every locked door. Explore as much as you can before kicking down a locked door. If you know there is a trap there, try not to kick down that door at all.
9. The puppy is a usually a trap. So is finding the raider lord. Do them at your own risk.
10. I try to only do the dwarven halls when I have teleport control and a wand of teleport.

Have fun.

[Blasphemous]

He can get piety while low level and lvl up to 8/11 afterward.

While piety decay will take him all the way down to "very close".
Also, even at low level, there are undead and there are summons, neither of which can be sacced.
SMC altar is good for immediate needs like item status check or holy water blessing but not for precrown or crown and that is from personal experience.
PC or VD/DD are much better.

[Automater]

WOW.

DE beastfighter candleborn, altar on SMC right next to downcase, another altar on UD7, PILES (100+ pepperpetals) of herbs, 30/18 dv/pv, tactics obtained, 100 alert/athl/dodge/herb/healing 21/22 strength/To 17 Le 26 Dx 23 perception, precrowned with TRUE AIM, i've got 7 arrows of dragon slaying, lvl 8 bows lvl 9 unarmed, exp lvl 15 getting rdy for pyramid, rolling great, motivated, trying to win for the love of god. what more could you ask for? was clearing random dungeon, i think R3. Bottom lvl meets a Horrible Dorn Beast, 1 hit paralyzed, -9.

I swear I'm never going to beat this game.

10 f*cking years.

[Soirana]

WOW.

1. 30/18 dv/pv, t
2. 23 perception, precrowned with TRUE AIM, i've got lvl 8 bows .... Bottom lvl meets a Horrible Dorn Beast, 1 hit paralyzed, -9.


1.30 DV at lv15 is nothing to write home about. Shields are rather overpowered in Adom and by choosing class which does not work with shields you are severely handicapping yourself.

2. Why didn't you shoot that thing on sight?

[Shinae]

If you have a habit meleeing paralysis monster you should never take that Amulet of Free Action off.

I personally love meleeing too, but then there are few monsters that even I won't raise my Justifier vs them. That's what spells, missiles and wand charges are for.

[Blank4u47]

sorry to hear that! But seriously, don't melee some things.

30/18 is sadly not safe, but it doesn't matter with dorn beasts, because they paralyse you the second you attack them, similar to a karmic lizards defense.

My advice? Ditch melee for once, play an archer. Get out of the punch everything habit, and learn to evolve your play style. Melee only will almost never let you win.

[Tyrnyx]

There is a reason the Dorn Beast produces a sound on every step. It's a warning. Take it seriously. Remember: Run away. If it catches up to you there are techniques to deal with that. True Aim would be one. Darkness is another. Spells another.

Never melee: Karmics, doppleganger kings, Dorn Beasts, stone oozes, fancy Liches, and if you can help it mimics. Never trade punches (or if you must use melee use hit and run tactics instead) with: molochs, balors, their greater versions, or the eternal guardian (which I would suggest not fighting at all).

[zliplus]

There is a good reason some people never take their free action off after early game.

[Blasphemous]

Dorns aren't particularly hard hitting monsters so with 30 PV and no -para you should be fine as well.

[Couchfighter]

I rolled a hurthling beastfighter after reading some of the advices here and he actually died to a dorn beast as well. In Rehetep's room. >< First time I've seen one, there. Didn't have free action and I don't think I had enough missile ammo to kill it even if I were to kill the rest of the room off while kiting. :)

[Blasphemous]

Also, from what I remember, confused dorns aren't as dangerous, being unable to "activate" their special attacks.
This regarding mindcrafters dealing with them.

[zliplus]

You can always leave Rehetep's room - the stairs just move about randomly until Rehetep's dead.

[mjz15]

Playing the same race/class combos over and over again gives you tunnel vision. Fateroll a couple of characters, playing different styles greatly increases your overall gaming skills. Quite a few faterolls will get killed pretty soon, but you might be surprised how well some unusual-sounding race/class combos play.
Also, it might take some pressure off wanting to win so badly.

[JellySlayer]

Hi guys,

I would very much like to win the game legit, but I just can't seem to do it. I think my main problem in playing too quickly and haphazardly mid game. I don't think I've even managed to obtain the fire orb but maybe once. I like to play DE Beastfighters so I can skip the early game and head straight for the HMV and eat the Oracle corpse asap.

Don't be so eager to skip the early game. You can get lots of good equipment and relatively safe XP in those areas. HMV runs will mean you will end up with a lot of characters getting splattered before they get anywhere. Druid quest has many nice rewards--artifact, useful skill or wand, good chance of early resistances, Puppy Cave offers near-guaranteed acid resist and a guaranteed high-loot vault (assuming it is not mixed). Clearing Oracle early is not really a high priority for this sort of character anyway--you don't really need Le, and you need to be able to get your piety up. Beastfighters gain power exponentially as they level, but they're pretty weak in the early game--getting to level 6 in easy areas will save you a tonne of trouble.


I always level healing dodge athletics and herbalism first.

I'd skip leveling Dodge and Herbalism in early game. Better to go with Find Weakness and Alertness, and maybe First Aid or Stealth. Dodge doesn't give a particularly great return on your invested points, and Herbalism is one of the few skills that self-trains incredibly efficiently.


I've made it up to level 20ish a number of other times with different R/C combos but it always seems I stumble into a doppelgänger lord, a mimic hive mind, or some other nasty thing and die.

I guess the important thing here is don't just run blindly into things at high levels. A lot of the high level monster equivalents of low level monsters--Dopple Kings (I'm guessing it wasn't a lord, since they can't kill a level 20), Mimic Hiveminds, Werewolf Kings, Berserker Emperors, etc. are all surprisingly nasty in melee, especially if you've got the 30-40 DV, 20 PV type stats you were talking about earlier.


Okay, that all said, some more general comments...

DE Beastfighter is a decently powerful R/C, actually, but Beastfighters in general do suffer from a lack of defensive power that is probably what has been getting you into trouble from the sounds of it. To put in perspective, the 30 DV/18 PV you mentioned your most recent deceased had is the same that a Dwarf Paladin or any Chaos Knight can get at level 1 on a really good roll. Generally going into the midgame, you want to be aiming for 30-40 PV. The problem with Beastfighters in particular is that you don't have shield access, which costs you 20-30 DV and a handful of PV by midgame. So you really need to focus on your remaining gear. Here's a decent midgame kit, off the top of my head, that should put you in the right neighbourhood:



Head: Helm of mental stability [0,+1]
Necklace: Ankh [+2, +2]
Body: Ancient Mummy wrapping [+1,+5]
Girdle: Adamantium Girdle [0, +3]
Cloak: Cloak of protection [0, +3]
Left Hand:
Right Hand:
Left Ring: Ring of the High Kings [+2,+3]
Right Ring: Ring of slaying (+6, +6)
Gauntlets: Elemental Gauntlets [0, +3]
Bracers: Bracers of protection [0, +2]
Boots: Eternium boots [0,+4]


This kit gives 5 DV and 31 PV (plus nearly twenty intrinsics), and should be easily achievable by level 20--you can easily get 40+ PV if you find dragon scale armor, or if one or two of your items have better-than-normal modifiers on them. I would also be trying to get >20 To so that you can get an extra few points of PV from that, plus maybe PV talents for a bit more. You can probably make a decent case for smithing with a Beastfighter, though I generally avoid doing that if I can. This is IMHO the minimum PV kit you would need to attempt the ToEF in straight melee (with wands/missiles, you can get by with less, of course).

Now, one option is just to switch classes. A DE Barbarian plays pretty much the same as your DE beastfighter, but you can use a weapon/shield combo for much improved defensive capacity. Even better would be an Orc Barbarian, which are real monsters in the early game and aren't as To limited as elves. Do the Kill Jharod quest to get healing in <1000 turns. You can run a two-handed weapon as well, but you will really need paralysis resist if you want to be safe--amulet of free action or intrinsic from a pool--and your DV/PV will be similar to your Beastfighter, so not really optimal. Paladins aren't too bad either, for that matter. Although they're tricky in the early game, Monks are pretty awesome once you get started--go for Drakeling, Gnome, or Dwarf. Don't play unarmed though, play Weapon + Shield as usual, and just capitalize on those awesome class powers. Note that on the kit above, just by adding in a medium crystal shield, [+9,+4], boosts it up to 35 PV and probably 25-30 DV (since you get 2 extra DV per rank in shields). If you throw in a spear at rank 9, you can get 10 more DV on top of that, putting you at something like 45 DV/35 PV.

If you just want raw power, you can try Archer as well. They're kind of absurdly overpowered in the missile department. Hurthling, GE/HE are fine here. Pretty much just stock up on arrows/rocks/whatever and hold down T.

[zliplus]

If you're really, really desperate to get progress, look into smithing. I believe I mentioned Weaponsmith as a strong newbie class earlier but smithing in general can help any character become much more solid, at the cost of considerable tedium.

[JellySlayer]

If you're really, really desperate to get progress, look into smithing. I believe I mentioned Weaponsmith as a strong newbie class earlier but smithing in general can help any character become much more solid, at the cost of considerable tedium.

I don't know if I've ever heard someone call Weaponsmith a newbie class before.

[Blank4u47]

I don't know if I've ever heard someone call Weaponsmith a newbie class before.

I'd say it's not really a newbie class, but it's a class that's great for a first win! because as soon as you find anything metal you can make it into something awesome pretty much as soon as dwarftown is found.

[zliplus]

I don't know if I've ever heard someone call Weaponsmith a newbie class before.

Hmm...it's not indicated as so on the wiki. Still, even if you don't smith, smiths get great starting stats, a strong melee skillset with casting possibility, and detect traps and fire resist off the bat.

[Blasphemous]

Skipping early game is your problem.
I never do that for the reasons that Jelly listed.
Plus for you, it would teach you a lot without presenting a considerable risk, associated with exploring mid-game locations with relatively underdeveloped char and as an unskilled player.
By all means try to go through PC and DD/VD first and see what happens.
Personally, I'm a hasty player, I like to do stuff fast but I mostly go fast in the early game because of smaller risks of running into something deadly.
Later on, it's just not worth it and I slow down. Knowing that you've invested some time and effort into a char already will make you more wary of things that can kill you.