Tips for Transitioning from Early to Mid Game

[twsanders]

Hey all,

I'm still fairly new to ADOM but have been putting in a lot of time over the past few weeks to a month. I'm slowly realizing that this game might take my entire summer to actually beat, but oh well... I'm ready to put in the time. What I'd like from some of the more experienced players is some tips on transitioning from the early game (SMC/UD, VD/DD, PC) to the mid-game (whatever that is because I don't know yet). I call that the "early game" for myself at least because it's after that point where I actually think I have a chance to have a decent life with my PC.

Currently, since I'm new I only play with a High Elven Archer that is either Candle or Raven born. If he is Candle, I typically lean towards the DD instead of VD and attempt to make use of herbs because it frustrates me when I find herbs without Herbalism and it becomes pointless to pick them up. Recently, I've also been traversing the entire UD after getting the waterproof blanket from the SMC. Is this a good idea? I often find that the loot you gain is great (I picked up a mithril shield my last playthrough) and the shortcut to HMV is nice later on (I think?).

My furthest playthrough so far has gotten me to the Arena (I only went to fight 5 or so because I was nervous about facing cats without having a means of teleportation). There raises the issue of how can I find blink dogs for teleport control? Even when I do find them and kill them they never leave their corpse for me to eat. I can't figure out how to do well in VDDL because I never have teleport control. The playthrough mentioned above I died on level 2 of the pyramid at level 13 because of poisoning and sickness.

Hopefully I've provided enough information to get some guidance (this is my first post ever so let me know if I need to provide more info for you all). I appreciate any guidance you all can give and sorry if this has been posted somewhere else. If that's the case, then I'll search through the forums for it.

Thanks guys! :D:D:D

[Soirana]

From the looks, I would suggest... learning basics, probably. Silfir's playthroughs are reasonable place to start if you short on ideas that you are lacking. (like this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgefJYVJXXg&list=PLOdHNY3MGPasZL28jdHzzhDqb_AhMkbOv).


because it frustrates me when I find herbs without Herbalism and it becomes pointless to pick them up.
Conceptually, herbalism is optional, healing is not. Candle makes healing better (you get 2xhp from sam amount of skill compared to non-Candle born).

Most herbs work while cursed. And uncursing is not a problem in mid-game either.


My furthest playthrough so far has gotten me to the Arena The playthrough mentioned above I died on level 2 of the pyramid at level 13 because of poisoning and sickness.

That is so wrong... Main priority in mid-game is DwarfTown cause it is a source of guaranteed stuff (great artifact weapon, offensive nutball wand, storage level,etc ). Wand in particular makes Pyramid easy.

I would suggest playing non-elf(IMO, toughness is main survival factor in early, early-mid game) and focusing on some goals. (Like why you need 'to do well' in VDDL? you need detect items and dig a bit...).

[JellySlayer]

Hey all,

I'm still fairly new to ADOM but have been putting in a lot of time over the past few weeks to a month. I'm slowly realizing that this game might take my entire summer to actually beat, but oh well... I'm ready to put in the time. What I'd like from some of the more experienced players is some tips on transitioning from the early game (SMC/UD, VD/DD, PC) to the mid-game (whatever that is because I don't know yet). I call that the "early game" for myself at least because it's after that point where I actually think I have a chance to have a decent life with my PC.

Currently, since I'm new I only play with a High Elven Archer that is either Candle or Raven born. If he is Candle, I typically lean towards the DD instead of VD and attempt to make use of herbs because it frustrates me when I find herbs without Herbalism and it becomes pointless to pick them up. Recently, I've also been traversing the entire UD after getting the waterproof blanket from the SMC. Is this a good idea? I often find that the loot you gain is great (I picked up a mithril shield my last playthrough) and the shortcut to HMV is nice later on (I think?).

This isn't a bad strategy if you can survive it. Archer is strong enough that you can do UD without a huge amount of difficulty. For non-Candle, doing VD first is probably a better idea (scout for the SMC stairs if you want... long as they're close it shouldn't be a problem). Don't be afraid of doing the chaotic route to get Healing... it starts at a much higher value (60 instead of 20) and is much easier/safer.

PC is a good place to visit for Archers early, at least as far as the ant level. Thrown rocks or slings are a very effective early missile weapon (since arrows tend to be in short supply), and the ants should generate them in abundance if you just close yourself in a room for awhile and let them do some mining.

Personally, I do VD/PC/UD* or DD/PC/DD**/UD* then CoC.
*If SMC is possible for character at around level 8-10... stairs very close. Otherwise I just skip and go straight to CoC.
**On first pass, I don't kill the druid, just explore dungeon for loot. Second pass after PC I kill druid.


My furthest playthrough so far has gotten me to the Arena (I only went to fight 5 or so because I was nervous about facing cats without having a means of teleportation).

Stop. Stop. Stop. Kill all the cats. The master cat ring is a very late, optional endgame item. There is absolutely no reason you should be worrying about cats at this point (also the first kill thing, if you're doing that). The Guidebook is leading you astray by suggesting that this matters to you. I'm sure by this point you've already run into at least one situation where a character ended up dead because you were trying to avoid killing a cat and got yourself into worse trouble. It just isn't worth the effort given that the odds of you making it to the master cat at this stage in your career are really, really low (and even if you do get to him, you can always just kill him for some decent XP). So do the Arena if you want... although you may want to only do the first 19 fights, since the 20th fight has a decent chance of being an experienced ogre magus who can cause some serious grief to players without the ability to see invisible and/or resist cold. But if you need ~8k in extra gold, you can do the rest of the Arena if you want. If nothing else, the ratling dealers in the Arena can solve the food problem.

That said, teleport control is definitely worth getting. Blink dogs are random spawn. If you're lawful, they'll be non-hostile and maybe be harder to track down (or mess with your alignment if you're unlucky). If you can get a hostile one, then the best thing to do is name him (press n), go into a large room and wait around a bit. The named blink dog will summon friends. Kill those (the summoned ones don't usually summon more, so you need the original one... hence the naming thing). Keep killing summons till one drops a corpse. Without food preservation, it worst it should take maybe 40 kills--2 or 3 rounds of summons.

Your main goal for midgame, as Soirana says, is getting to Dwarftown. That's on D:9-11. The biggest threat to you is the Big Room, which is on D:6-7 or so. This should be crossed as quickly as possible... use a torch to extend sight, don't fight unless you have to (monsters will spawn faster than you can kill them)... if you hit a bad summoner or something, try to fight on the stairs and pull monsters to a different level.

Pyramid is available from levels 13-16. Generally, you should be aiming to visit near the high end of that range unless you have a fairly good idea of what you're doing. Definitely I would be visiting Dwarftown before Pyramid. No reason not to... you aren't in any rush.

I'm going to give a plug for the early game survival guide (http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Early-game_survival) from the Wiki. It's not fully up-to-date with the most recent version, but it still has some very good tips. Not too spoily.

[twsanders]

First of all, I don't know if I'm formatting this reply correctly but hopefully it works out. Second, thanks for your advice on the order of what you do in the early game. Sometimes I definitely think that I do things in a little bit of a weird order which makes it harder so I appreciate that.



Stop. Stop. Stop. Kill all the cats. The master cat ring is a very late, optional endgame item. There is absolutely no reason you should be worrying about cats at this point (also the first kill thing, if you're doing that). The Guidebook is leading you astray by suggesting that this matters to you. I'm sure by this point you've already run into at least one situation where a character ended up dead because you were trying to avoid killing a cat and got yourself into worse trouble. It just isn't worth the effort given that the odds of you making it to the master cat at this stage in your career are really, really low (and even if you do get to him, you can always just kill him for some decent XP).

So, my only concern with this, is when I get to that point... I'd be pretty upset if I screwed it up by killing a cat. So that's the only reason I try to avoid it when possible. In most dungeons I can just lead them upstairs in Coward mode, outrun it, and then leave it up there. If the situation doesn't look good for me, I have killed them though. If I get to that point in the game, I would have liked to have not killed one. Idk, you're definitely right in saying that the guidebook has made me feel like this is a very important factor, even more so for the first kill thing. I think that one is pretty easy though, as I always kill some kind of NPC in the outlaw town.



Your main goal for midgame, as Soirana says, is getting to Dwarftown. That's on D:9-11. The biggest threat to you is the Big Room, which is on D:6-7 or so. This should be crossed as quickly as possible... use a torch to extend sight, don't fight unless you have to (monsters will spawn faster than you can kill them)... if you hit a bad summoner or something, try to fight on the stairs and pull monsters to a different level.

I'm going to give a plug for the early game survival guide (http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Early-game_survival) from the Wiki. It's not fully up-to-date with the most recent version, but it still has some very good tips. Not too spoily.

Thanks for all of this as well. I've visited the Wiki A LOT to learn about different aspects of the game whenever I find a creature or something and the only thing that comes to mind is WTF is that. Haha.

I appreciate both of your input. Going to try a few more runs and will probably come back for some more advice after I finally make it to Dwarftown if I'm not sure where to go from that.

[JellySlayer]

So, my only concern with this, is when I get to that point... I'd be pretty upset if I screwed it up by killing a cat. So that's the only reason I try to avoid it when possible. In most dungeons I can just lead them upstairs in Coward mode, outrun it, and then leave it up there. If the situation doesn't look good for me, I have killed them though. If I get to that point in the game, I would have liked to have not killed one. Idk, you're definitely right in saying that the guidebook has made me feel like this is a very important factor, even more so for the first kill thing. I think that one is pretty easy though, as I always kill some kind of NPC in the outlaw town.

As far as first kill is concerned, you're honestly better off doing your first kill as a rat or jackal or something if you really care about it. At least it's plausible that you could get Courage at some point. If you haven't won the game at least once on a normal ending yet, you definitely shouldn't be worrying about any of the ultra ending stuff (including saving Khelevaster).

For cats, again, just don't worry about it. Even if you make it to that point in the game and miss the ring... so what? It's a great artifact, for sure, but most endgame characters are so strong that it actually makes a lot less of a difference than you'd expect. If you've already made it this far, the odds of winning the game are very good regardless of whether or not you have the ring.

Generally, I'd suggest focusing on achievable objectives. Have your goal to get to Dwarftown. Don't worry about anything that comes after that. Once you make it there, then pick another logical objective that immediately follows that. Don't worry about what the endgame will look like until you get there. If anything, the only long-term planning that you need to be thinking of is what you need to get passed the Tower of Eternal Flame, but even that is still a bit far off on your horizon, IMHO.

[auricbond]

Conceptually, herbalism is optional, healing is not.

Both are optional, but I'd take herbalism if I had to choose.


It just isn't worth the effort given that the odds of you making it to the master cat at this stage in your career are really, really low (and even if you do get to him, you can always just kill him for some decent XP).

It makes me wonder what other peoples playstyles are that they can 'just kill' the second-most dangerous boss in the game. Granted he's never killed me, but that's because I made sure to be super ready and there were still a few close calls.

[_Ln_]

It makes me wonder what other peoples playstyles are that they can 'just kill' the second-most dangerous boss in the game. Granted he's never killed me, but that's because I made sure to be super ready and there were still a few close calls.

Agreeing on this one. There is no need to obsess over RoTMC, but cat lord is a huge risk for unprepared/badly prepared/not experienced in obscure mechanics.

[Soirana]

It makes me wonder what other peoples playstyles are that they can 'just kill' the second-most dangerous boss in the game. Granted he's never killed me, but that's because I made sure to be super ready and there were still a few close calls.
Booze+wand of fireball. Backup with few healing potions.
Booze is unlimited and wand is one of DT gifts.

You don't have to fight him in many cases level is just bypassable with magic map/detect monsters.
The person who never saw Dwarf Town really should not worry about him, opening HMV passage or ultra related stuff (like first kill). Max of worries should be ToEF.

[Blasphemous]

I agree that the cat lord is a no brainer, he's easily skippable with wands of digging and monster detection.
I also agree that inexperienced players should completely ignore no-kill-cat rule because it will cost them more than it's worth, piling on top of all the other problems/risks.

As an archer I would have to suggest farming barbarians for arrows, which will inevitably yield several arrows of hunting.
These make blink dog corpses drop much sooner without food preservation.
Herbalism is also more useful in my opinion than healing, especially if you happen to obtain gardening.
Healing is nice but not mandatory for candle chars.

One of the frequent early game strategies for chars that need herbs for healing is to rush to the big room asap.
There are guaranteed herbs there; the sooner you start collecting them, the more you will be able to increase the skill upon level ups in the early game.
Just picking up one herb can make a big difference during skill incrementation, anywhere between 5-20 extra points.

For starting chars I would also advocate to visit as many caves as possible - just the first level.
You can get an early surge of power, doable for an archer or you can find herbs very early, like in DDL which is a rather low DL place.
Plus, you might find shops, tension rooms of easy meat, altars, pools...

[twsanders]

Hello again,

After a day of struggling with the Elven Archer thing (basically all of my games ended before level 10) I have decided to transition to something that I've read is a little bit easier. I'm playing with a Drakeling Healer right now. However, there is so much that I don't know about these damn herbs growing in the dungeons. Do I just pick all of them every time I come upon them? That's what I've been doing up to this point. I feel like I'm supposed to pick all of them from what I've read and then later on plant them in some farming fashion in order to grow the good stuff?

I have taken the DD quest in order to receive gardening from the druid since I already know Herbalism. Basically, I haven't been able to find a great resource for information on all these herbs and things. The Wiki helps some but doesn't really give advice on the best thing that I should be doing with all of these things. I'm only on UD:1 and I have a TON of herbs already. I use my Herbalism skill on each plant before I pick any of them because I think that's what I'm supposed to do.

Basically I'm really lost on the whole herb thing and could just use some general advice...

[JellySlayer]

Hello again,

After a day of struggling with the Elven Archer thing (basically all of my games ended before level 10) I have decided to transition to something that I've read is a little bit easier. I'm playing with a Drakeling Healer right now. However, there is so much that I don't know about these damn herbs growing in the dungeons. Do I just pick all of them every time I come upon them? That's what I've been doing up to this point. I feel like I'm supposed to pick all of them from what I've read and then later on plant them in some farming fashion in order to grow the good stuff?

I have taken the DD quest in order to receive gardening from the druid since I already know Herbalism. Basically, I haven't been able to find a great resource for information on all these herbs and things. The Wiki helps some but doesn't really give advice on the best thing that I should be doing with all of these things. I'm only on UD:1 and I have a TON of herbs already. I use my Herbalism skill on each plant before I pick any of them because I think that's what I'm supposed to do.

Basically I'm really lost on the whole herb thing and could just use some general advice...

Okay, simplest explanation... herbs will regrow over time if you don't pick all of them, so it's best not to just pick everything. Herb generations range from about 10 turns minimum to about 500 turns maximum, so it can be a bit of a wait.

Ideally, you want to pick herbs so that they end up in a 2x2 square configuration


""
""


This configuration is very useful. If you pick any one of the four bushes away completely, but don't touch the others, it will regrow in the same position.

That is:


".
""

grows into

""
""


Alternately, if you have the herbalism skill, you can look each plant and see if it is "withered" "strong" or "blossoming" (if you're playing with tiles, you can see this visually as well). If you pick a plant that is blossoming, you will get a herb of that type, and it will either stay as it is or go to strong. If you pick a strong one, it will either stay as it is or go to withered. If you pick a withered, it will stay as it is or die. So if you have the 2x2 square above and all four plants are blossoming, you can pick at minimum 2 herbs from each bush without actually losing any of the bushes. If you wait around awhile, they'll regrow to strong, and then to blossom (this is more time-efficient than just picking one bush completely to death and waiting for it to regrow).

Each row going across gives a different type of herb. So it's not just getting a 2x2 square, but getting one on the rows that are most useful to you. There are tricks you can do to move things around before you set the 2x2 square. The other option is to use gardening. If you Apply the Gardening skill (the same way you'd use First Aid, say) on a blossoming bush, then there's a chance you will pick some seeds. Or you destroy the bush. If you plant a seed on an empty tile, then there's a chance to get a new bush. This way you can build new squares. Helps to have Gardening above 60 to make this work. There's seven types of plants. You can figure out which row is which this way: Press L. Move the cursor to the top of the map. This row is 3. Count down 4, 5, 6. The first row you can normally get to on a dungeon level without digging is always 5 as is the bottom row you can access without digging. After row 6, go back to 0 and start again. So it goes 3,4,5,6,0,1,2,3,4,5,6, etc. Cross check with this table:


3 Stomafilla/stomacepta herbs
4 Pepper petals/Burb root
5 Morgia root
6 Moss of marelion
0 Spenseweed
1 Curaria mancox/devil rose
2 Alurina antidote/devil daisy


All herbs except 0 and 6 have an effect while eaten. Burb/stomacepta/devil have bad effects. Stomafilla is food. Pepper petals give healing (about 25 HP when blessed). Eating 4 morgia roots at a time will increase Toughness and Willpower stats (after some time), up to potential max or 25, whichever comes first. Mancox will cure sickness. Antidote will cure poison. Generally, effects are better when blessed. Moss of marelion can be put in the tool slot and used. Using 3 or so of these will increase Dx up to potential max or 25, whichever comes first, as long as they aren't cursed. Cursed ones will abuse Dx. Spenseweed gives healing when used as a tool.

[twsanders]

Wow.... Thanks for all that info. Seems incredibly complex and something I'll have to figure out as I try to train the skills. My first run with the healer ended in the UD, I got bombarded by ghosts and they aged me to death..... incredibly disappointing. Haha. I'll come back later on once I get some practice with the gardening and things of that sort.

Thanks again for all your help, you've been rather beneficial.

[Sian]

I would suggest taking a very beefy race, when you're still in the learning process, Trolls, Orcs and Dwarves are strong picks, Drakelings slightly less so due to poor starting item quality and knowing how to manage acid spit, but still a valid consideration ... Gnome is somewhat of a corner case which is viable if you want to sniff around the magical side of things since they're highly competent in that regard while still being much beefier than any of the other magical-inclined races.

In a similar vein, I'd also suggest a beefy class, Barbarian, Healer and Paladin being the most obvious, with Duelist being an option when you fairly consistently gets to CoC (as they really start rolling at 12th) ... Archer while strong, needs a certain amount of resource management, and a good sense of when to range and when its acceptable to melee, conserving ammunition.

For the first long while, you should at most consider targeting ToEF, which mean ignoring saving Khelly (unless you just happen to land an AoLS anyways), ignoring aiming at certain first-kills, not treating cats with a silk glove etc...

[Highway25]

I would suggest taking a very beefy race, when you're still in the learning process

My first win was with dwarven barbarian, so I think this is very much true.

[blunk]

After quite a few playthroughs I've come to enjoy humans for a smooth early game.
Dwarves are slightly stronger and get a bit more TO but less dex and a lack of swimming while easily solved in the Long run can be a bummer in the early game.

[Hoponpop]

Hey, I definitely know what you mean about the beginning to mid game challenges. Honestly, I usually start my characters and go straight to the village dungeon and finish the healing quest. Healing is a must have for any PC, candle-born or not. The herbalism quest can be difficult, because you face Keethrax with a bunch of animals, sometimes with Giant Slugs... o-o I'm surprised no one mentioned it, but if I'm not feeling too confident going into the CoC, I usually go to the Infinity Dungeon for a few days and just gain 1 or 2 levels. This way you get experience, weapon marks, shield marks, and items like useful scrolls, wands, potions, etc. You can get lots of potions of water to bless, and if you're lucky, you can get potions of gain attributes along with other stat boosting potions! :D I usually just stay around I:6 - I:9, because there is no background corruption and the danger level is still low.

[sweetnothing]

I'm surprised no one mentioned it, but if I'm not feeling too confident going into the CoC, I usually go to the Infinity Dungeon for a few days and just gain 1 or 2 levels.

There's some reasoning to *start* the game in CoC. I did not do this in past but after my attempts at Lithium man challenge I think this is a quite safe and conservative approach. The danger level increases uniformly in CoC. If you start in CoC, you reach the Big Room at lower character level and therefore less chance dangerous monsters would be generated; you reach Dwarftown and its services earlier.

VD has lower danger levels than corresponding CoC levels and thus it gives worse drops in theory. The last VD level may be too dangerous sometimes and in these cases you skip it anyway. The puppy cave has ants, small cave is stupidly risky, ID has reduced item quality for its danger levels.

So unless you are aiming at some specific objective (like getting water-proof blanket/collecting books/getting tp control/detect traps), going to CoC at earliest opportunity seems beneficial.

[Gref]

Considering ADOM's non-linear nature combined with the likelihood of dying, the early game starts to feel like an extension of character creation as you die repeatedly. That is, in my experience, the game doesn't really start unless you've made it out of the early game. I tend to just dive through the SMC/UD, which is admittedly high risk, but making it out alive usually results in a deep run.

One thing I've only recently started doing is equipping any rings or amulets immediately I find immediately. The collective pool of rings/amulets with crippling effects is quite small and jewelry still functions regardless of ID status. Thus it's usually to your benefit to do so.

In my current game I was lucky enough to equip and amulet of protection +5 found in the SMC and that alone is enough to carry most PCs through the UD.

[Hoponpop]

VD has lower danger levels than corresponding CoC levels and thus it gives worse drops in theory. The last VD level may be too dangerous sometimes and in these cases you skip it anyway. The puppy cave has ants, small cave is stupidly risky, ID has reduced item quality for its danger levels.

So unless you are aiming at some specific objective (like getting water-proof blanket/collecting books/getting tp control/detect traps), going to CoC at earliest opportunity seems beneficial.

The lower danger level equaling lower item quality doesn't matter for why I suggested to go to the ID. The danger level of the ID is the floor divided by 3 if I remember correctly, so most useful wands, potions, and scrolls drop by ID:9 where I mentioned. You can get very useful potion of stats and water to bless them as well, along with offensive wands which can save you throughout the game, especially if you are not a magic user!

[Soirana]

The lower danger level equaling lower item quality doesn't matter for why I ssuggested to go to the ID. The danger level of the ID is the floor divided by 3 if I remember correctly, so most useful wands, potions, and scrolls drop by ID:9 where I mentioned. You can get very useful potion of stats and water to bless them as well, along with offensive wands which can save you throughout the game, especially if you are not a magic user!
You propose fight DL9 monsters for DL3 stuff.... which seems bad.

Big room i something like d6-7, so if you stick around down stairs, you can drag and controllably kill d6-7
for d7-8 items, which include mithril armor and other worthy stuff, which is way more progress than few pots.

[Hoponpop]

Wait, so does the DL of the Infinite Dungeon being divided by three only apply to item generation and not monster generation? If so, then maybe it's not the best thing to do. However, the reason why the Infinite Dungeon was nice in my opinion was because you can go up and down the levels freely if a tough monster appears. The big room can be really dangerous, even if you stay next to the stairs at an early level. Worms, summoners, and breath attack monsters appear quite frequently, along with vortices of various elements. All it takes it one worm or summoner to get out of control, and you might not be able to farm the big room. Heck, it'll be hard to even get to the downstairs, and most new players would try anyways!

[JellySlayer]

Wait, so does the DL of the Infinite Dungeon being divided by three only apply to item generation and not monster generation? If so, then maybe it's not the best thing to do. However, the reason why the Infinite Dungeon was nice in my opinion was because you can go up and down the levels freely if a tough monster appears. The big room can be really dangerous, even if you stay next to the stairs at an early level. Worms, summoners, and breath attack monsters appear quite frequently, along with vortices of various elements. All it takes it one worm or summoner to get out of control, and you might not be able to farm the big room. Heck, it'll be hard to even get to the downstairs, and most new players would try anyways!

Yes, items spawn at 1/3 danger level, but monsters spawn at danger level.

I like hanging out on I:1 and escaping the level if a tough monster appears if I need to do a really safe game... good way to get up to level 6 or so with minimal risk if you're playing something like a mist elf thief.