Q&A: How does this work again? [Archive] - ADOM & Ultimate ADOM Forums

Blasphemous

06-15-2016, 10:49 AM

Well, yeah that's what I meant, obviously you cannot be precrowned with what has been chosen as your crowning gift upon char creation.
But at least with this information, you have better knowledge of whether crowning asap is desirable or if you can just postpone it till you get enough gold through regular play, without grinding.
Some classes have only one or two nice crowning gifts so getting them earlier via precrown makes the subsequent crowning not such a pressing matter, unless you need a specific immunity and have means to force the deity to grant it to you.

_Ln_

06-15-2016, 11:16 AM

Well, yeah that's what I meant, obviously you cannot be precrowned with what has been chosen as your crowning gift upon char creation.

Do we know that for sure? As in there are actual distinct artifact pools active in the game? One for precrowning, one for crowning, one for natural generation?

Soirana

06-15-2016, 02:22 PM

Do we know that for sure? As in there are actual distinct artifact pools active in the game? One for precrowning, one for crowning, one for natural generation?

Not sure if i get the question.

Crowning gift is set upon char generation. It doesn't drop, etc. I believe this was shown on Adom of hall fame forums apoxim 15 years ago.

Each game has it's pool of artifacts. (Meaning in some games executor won 't drop no matter what). That was shown via code diving, but well again bug in pool generation meant that some artifacts never dropped in 1.1.1, which sort of confirmed exsistance of artifact pool.

Precrown and natural drop use same pool/list/whatever to the best of my knowledge.

Sian

06-15-2016, 02:55 PM

Q2:

Fletchery (http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Fletchery) says that Archer 18 gives 1.5x the usual ammunition when using a fletchery set, but Archer (http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Archer) says that it lowers the time used to make the ammunition by 50% ... which is true?

_Ln_

06-15-2016, 03:19 PM

Crowning gift is set upon char generation. It doesn't drop, etc. I believe this was shown on Adom of hall fame forums apoxim 15 years ago.

Yeah, that seems reasonable.

Each game has it's pool of artifacts. (Meaning in some games executor won 't drop no matter what). That was shown via code diving, but well again bug in pool generation meant that some artifacts never dropped in 1.1.1, which sort of confirmed exsistance of artifact pool.

Precrown and natural drop use same pool/list/whatever to the best of my knowledge.

So what happens if you exhaust it and precrown?

Q2:

Fletchery (http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Fletchery) says that Archer 18 gives 1.5x the usual ammunition when using a fletchery set, but Archer (http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Archer) says that it lowers the time used to make the ammunition by 50% ... which is true?

Research by Sami vs. research by Soirana. I'm bringing my popcorn. :D

Blank4u47

06-15-2016, 03:34 PM

Thankfully that's quite easy to find out... It reduces turns and doesn't make more ammo. Just need to ":t" to check for turn count, then compare pre 18 archer with a blessed log vs lvl 18 with a blessed log.

The increased ammo myth probably came about because of the variable quantity made with different status wood.

Soirana

06-15-2016, 05:33 PM

So what happens if you exhaust it and precrown?

Pool is ~20 artifacts (or more). You would need to be ~lv70 to precrown with 20 artifacts. Once you get there, please report results.

Research by Sami vs. research by Soirana. I'm bringing my popcorn. :D
None of pages includes clear link to any reasearch of mine. I see Grey's research, but you should pull bubble gum for that.
The increase comes through the in-game manual description. (I states about being more productive, which I guess can be treated in a way of ammo per turn).

JellySlayer

06-15-2016, 05:45 PM

So what happens if you exhaust it and precrown?

I don't think it's possible to do this. You can do 14 precrowns before generating any other artifacts, then try to collect as many random ones as you can after that (1.1.1 allows up to 5 more from pickpockets, for instance). The problem is that it gets progressively harder to accumulate random artifacts the more you have--your greater vaults will all have gold, the Casino will be dry, and there's no other method available to generate guaranteed random artifacts.

IIRC the pool is size 24.

_Ln_

06-15-2016, 05:54 PM

Pool is ~20 artifacts (or more). You would need to be ~lv70 to precrown with 20 artifacts. Once you get there, please report results.

None of pages includes clear link to any reasearch of mine. I see Grey's research, but you should pull bubble gum for that.
The increase comes through the in-game manual description. (I states about being more productive, which I guess can be treated in a way of ammo per turn).

Yeah, my bad, although your initial wording was definitely cryptic :D

http://ancardia.wikia.com/index.php?title=Fletchery&diff=18328&oldid=18327

At this point your "1.5x more productive" became "1.5x more arrows".

I don't think it's possible to do this. You can do 14 precrowns before generating any other artifacts, then try to collect as many random ones as you can after that (1.1.1 allows up to 5 more from pickpockets, for instance). The problem is that it gets progressively harder to accumulate random artifacts the more you have--your greater vaults will all have gold, the Casino will be dry, and there's no other method available to generate guaranteed random artifacts.

IIRC the pool is size 24.

There is D:49, which means you can always try to break the system. Yeah, I somehow forgot that precrowns have minimum generated arts requirement :/

Soirana

06-15-2016, 06:22 PM

At this point your "1.5x more productive" became "1.5x more arrows".

Have FIFA disqualified Russian football team already?

1.5 more arrows was on the first version of that article. Well, I was the author of it, which does not mean I did any research about it.

As far as early wiki posts go, you can orientate in a simple way. Me saying anything - is stuff I believe in. Me saying 'research' means that I believe proper research was done. Me saying 'quick/fast reasearch' means I/other people did something, but not too reliably (likely under 50 tries, don't check all things involved BUC, etc.).

I don't know if skill blog is diggable through internet archives, but most stuff in there were quick and dirty estimations. Some were insightful (music instrument range for example) and some were completely wrong.

There is D:49, which means you can always try to break the system. Yeah, I somehow forgot that precrowns have minimum generated arts requirement :/
IIRC, this has been done. I can't find results at the moment

http://www.adom.de/forums/archive/index.php/t-11259.html?
Fascinating how 5 years later questions don't change...

_Ln_

06-15-2016, 07:17 PM

Have FIFA disqualified Russian football team already?

Could not care less really.

1.5 more arrows was on the first version of that article. Well, I was the author of it, which does not mean I did any research about it.

As far as early wiki posts go, you can orientate in a simple way. Me saying anything - is stuff I believe in. Me saying 'research' means that I believe proper research was done. Me saying 'quick/fast reasearch' means I/other people did something, but not too reliably (likely under 50 tries, don't check all things involved BUC, etc.).

I don't know if skill blog is diggable through internet archives, but most stuff in there were quick and dirty estimations. Some were insightful (music instrument range for example) and some were completely wrong.

What I was saying that "1.5x more productive" can be interpreted as "make missiles faster", hence no mistake on your part (whether it's 1.5x or 2x is less important), but someone changed the article using a wrong interpretation of your words.

So I wanted to flame a bit, but failed miserably. Meh

IIRC, this has been done. I can't find results at the moment

http://www.adom.de/forums/archive/index.php/t-11259.html?
Fascinating how 5 years later questions don't change...

Now then I had something in my mind about this (which means the information about this question already discussed is somewhere in my memory). Still I don't see an answer in that thread (maybe I'm dumb?), so that's a shame. Hopefully it doesn't cause a crash or infinite loop.

Soirana

06-15-2016, 07:25 PM

Still I don't see an answer in that thread (maybe I'm dumb?)
I meant that thread's and this opening posts are strikingly similar.

Sadly adom.de and brinkster.net are not very searchable, it might be that it was just talking about checking that thing...

Blasphemous

06-15-2016, 10:22 PM

Pool is ~20 artifacts (or more). You would need to be ~lv70 to precrown with 20 artifacts. Once you get there, please report results.

Precrowns don't need to be the only source. You said it yourself, the pool includes other sources - Giant vaults, random surges; D49 also counts.
I'd need further testing for that, but the exceedingly rare random drops seem to defy that rule; I was able to obtain an artifact that I did not get even once after a session of ~10 x 15 precrowns in the past.

I don't think it's possible to do this. You can do 14 precrowns before generating any other artifacts, then try to collect as many random ones as you can after that (1.1.1 allows up to 5 more from pickpockets, for instance). The problem is that it gets progressively harder to accumulate random artifacts the more you have--your greater vaults will all have gold, the Casino will be dry, and there's no other method available to generate guaranteed random artifacts.

IIRC the pool is size 24.

According to my last testing, pool size was 21.
Once that is exhausted, you get a bunch of high-end items instead - tested on D49, throwing the potion.
Eternium with suffixes/prefixes, poga that kind of stuff is generated instead, quantity somewhere between ancient dragon and great wyrm drops.

As a side note, I don't think it's possible to get more than 6 precrowns in the current versions and this limitation has been there for some time now (like since ~R48ish).
I don't feel like looking for the right thread but a quick test with cheat engine and incremental sacrifices of ~40 mil gold, starting with around 500k, indicate that 6 is the maximum.
With the proper level, no amount of further sacrifices was enough to get the seventh.
Somewhat higher amount of gold was required to reach 15 precrowns in versions before that.
Not that anybody sane would ever get that far without cheating, much less to the previous limit of 15, but technically speaking that is the maximum.

_Ln_

06-16-2016, 09:25 AM

According to my last testing, pool size was 21.
Once that is exhausted, you get a bunch of high-end items instead - tested on D49, throwing the potion.
Eternium with suffixes/prefixes, poga that kind of stuff is generated instead, quantity somewhere between ancient dragon and great wyrm drops.

This is lame :/ Why not just reroll additional pool or something?

Blasphemous

06-16-2016, 12:21 PM

Yes it is lame, I don't understand why those silly artifact pools exist at all.
A single pool would be perfectly fine.
Why not just make it possible to get ANY random artifact in a single game?

Soirana

06-16-2016, 12:32 PM

Yes it is lame, I don't understand why those silly artifact pools exist at all.
A single pool would be perfectly fine.
Why not just make it possible to get ANY random artifact in a single game?

Why not make appropriate RFE?

Blasphemous

06-16-2016, 04:28 PM

I have a bunch of more important RFEs reported, with some that have been around for years without any response.
Somehow I don't think anybody gives a damn about this, since it's low prio.

Sian

07-27-2016, 11:08 AM

Do you get the bonus from Backstabbing when using missile weapons against neutral enemies?

Blank4u47

07-27-2016, 11:45 AM

No, backstab is melee only

Gref

07-27-2016, 02:19 PM

Are there any numbers regarding "doubly trained skills" when a skill is shared by a race and class? I made some DE and ORC monks and farmers as well as a Troll monk to see how find weakness would roll. All the monks had find weakness in the mid to upper 30's despite Trolls not having find weakness racially. The farmers had 9 and 10 find weakness respectively which was expected I guess.

Just from those quick character creations it seems like regardless if a race shares a skill with a class the starting value of that skill won't be much higher (if at all) than if the skill is only provided by the class.

Blank4u47

07-27-2016, 02:44 PM

What were their dice? I've long suspected this is bad info that's been circulating for the longest time.

Gref

07-27-2016, 03:08 PM

What were their dice? I've long suspected this is bad info that's been circulating for the longest time.

I'll have to check when I get home. Today is a bit busier at work so I can't roll any characters for now.

hum monk 31 fw [+3d4]
tro monk 30 fw [+3d4]
hel monk 37 fw [+3d4]
gel monk 25 fw [+3d5]
del monk 35 fw [+3d4] race starts with fw
dwa monk 28 fw [+3d5]
gno monk 24 fw [+3d5]
hur monk 35 fw [+3d4]
orc monk 29 fw [+3d5] race starts with fw
dra monk 27 fw [+3d5]
mel monk 31 fw [+3d4]
rat monk 24 fw [+3d5]

rolled these real quick, not sure if it helps.

Soirana

07-27-2016, 03:27 PM

What were their dice? I've long suspected this is bad info that's been circulating for the longest time.

Bad info?
Game manual under section skills:
"If you receive a skill due to class and race, the skill score will be higher than normal."

Maybe it's time for bug report...

Blank4u47

07-27-2016, 09:34 PM

Bad info?
Game manual under section skills:
"If you receive a skill due to class and race, the skill score will be higher than normal."

Maybe it's time for bug report...

I seriously just checked the manual.... Yep it says it right in the skills section. if I remember correctly though, hurthling necromancers do start with a high skill value in food pres. I guess the manual may have been referring to specific instances where a race normally starts with a high skill value?

_Ln_

07-27-2016, 09:48 PM

Maybe it's time for bug report...

It works mostly alright (if barely noticeable thanks to the way it stacks), but there are some exceptions.

http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2208

Probably don't have the raw data anymore, but it can be constructed again.

Gref

07-28-2016, 12:48 AM

It works mostly alright (if barely noticeable thanks to the way it stacks), but there are some exceptions.

http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2208

Probably don't have the raw data anymore, but it can be constructed again.

Thanks for the insight _Ln_, much appreciated!

Sian

07-29-2016, 09:23 PM

Just got myself Celestrix as Precrown on a Ratling Duelist ... worth using or is the Dooming to severe?

Cactus

07-29-2016, 09:48 PM

I'd only use it for specific situations:
1) if you really need the shock immunity (lightning vortex, maybe lightning lizard too) and
2) for quickly regenerating HP after a fight.
It doesn't have autocursing, so using it situationally is much easier than for example the crown of science for reading.

I'd advise against using it for regular fighting, although it may be ok if you really know what monsters to avoid in particular as a doomed char (most definitely ghuls, mimics, etc.). But frankly, since you're playing a short-lived race, any ghost bat from inside a wall could be quite dangerous. So no, better find a girdle of carrying for your duelist.

JellySlayer

07-30-2016, 10:36 PM

If nothing else, it's useful to regenerate HP before you find another regen item.

I would probably avoid using it regularly if you don't have paralysis resist. With it, IMHO it's worthwhile, especially if you are also wearing the ankh. You can always remove it.

Harkila

08-03-2016, 09:32 AM

Just got myself Celestrix as Precrown on a Ratling Duelist ... worth using or is the Dooming to severe?

IMHO, dooming is too severe for continuous use. Sure, it's useful when used temporarily with caution.. The regeneration being the key use. Also against some nasty cases such as an invisible ogre magus blasting you with ice to death, if you have no other means of see invisible. Also when regenerating and low in health, remember that ranged attacks can be nasty, too. A thrown rock by a troll king or stone giant lord can drop 100+ HP when doomed, and usually getting hit on low health when doomed means you're down to -10 HP instead of 1.

Blasphemous

08-03-2016, 01:31 PM

From what I remember, item-based dooming has a weaker effect than intrinsic-based (but it's still nasty).
Like Jelly said, with para resistance and ankh it's worthwhile, but I would take it off before facing monsters that can potentially crit you for hundreds of HP.
Be careful with celestrix when meleeing stuff like titans, giant kings, greater molochs, dopple kings, wyrms or quickling/lich royalty.
One bad crit and the regular 1 HP left turns into -60 or something.
I remember clearing D50 with it equipped (got it as uselessness gift) and it was on a lvl 50 assassin that also wielded executor.
I noticed no substantial problems, but that was a tough char with 60+ PV and insane DV.

JellySlayer

08-04-2016, 09:21 AM

IMHO, dooming is too severe for continuous use. Sure, it's useful when used temporarily with caution.. The regeneration being the key use. Also against some nasty cases such as an invisible ogre magus blasting you with ice to death, if you have no other means of see invisible. Also when regenerating and low in health, remember that ranged attacks can be nasty, too. A thrown rock by a troll king or stone giant lord can drop 100+ HP when doomed, and usually getting hit on low health when doomed means you're down to -10 HP instead of 1.

The 1 HP thing doesn't ever apply in the case of missile weapons or spells, AFAIK, regardless of your character's luck.

Soirana

08-05-2016, 10:20 AM

The 1 HP thing doesn't ever apply in the case of missile weapons or spells, AFAIK, regardless of your character's luck.
Well, spells don't crit so sure they don't apply.

Is where a comprehensive place detailing on saving throws? I sorta recall needing some luck roll and HP being above certain % (60?)...

blunk

08-05-2016, 02:15 PM

Q3: If I want to do extensive mining for ore/gems, does it matter where?

Ogre caves seems like a good place since it's a no spawn area.

JellySlayer

08-05-2016, 09:03 PM

Q3: If I want to do extensive mining for ore/gems, does it matter where?

Ogre caves seems like a good place since it's a no spawn area.

AFAIK, the danger level of the area has no effect on the kinds of ore/gems that spawn. Ogre Cave is an okay choice--no spawns is good, but it's a weakly corrupting area. Any low level area where you can minimize the spawns with a room full of worms will do fine. ID is okay.

Well, spells don't crit so sure they don't apply.

Is where a comprehensive place detailing on saving throws? I sorta recall needing some luck roll and HP being above certain % (60?)...

I remember reading something similar, but I can't find it at the moment.

Blank4u47

08-06-2016, 01:09 AM

Q3: If I want to do extensive mining for ore/gems, does it matter where?

Ogre caves seems like a good place since it's a no spawn area.

I've never noticed a difference in gem types or ore types found in different locations. Back when I mined a lot, I'd mine out arena level, ogre caves, and gremlin caves (after disarming) Due to low monster gen rates. Then I'd mine the other coc levels up to dwarf town.

Sian

08-10-2016, 12:19 PM

Q4: Found a Spear of Devestation (+1,5d8+6) on a Dualist ... would the slowed growth of my weapon skill (which in turn gives +Hit, lower energy use and later on DV), make it a too long-term liability to use in practice? (over other bug-standard weapons that i might have now, still quite early in the game)

Blank4u47

08-10-2016, 04:23 PM

I'm guessing that you aren't sword or dragon born, so my guess is that you'd make it to skill 10 to 12 by endgame depending on your playstyle. So at skill 11 you'll have a energy cost around 585 if I remember right, as opposed to 370 at grand mastery with the other weapons. You'll lose about 4 dmg and 8 DV, but the DV will be made up with polearm skill.

So I say, keep using it until you find a cooler weapon. Duelists train skill so fast in other weapons that it really doesn't matter if you switch mid-game.

Sian

08-10-2016, 05:53 PM

add an additional -2ToHit/Damage from baseline Dualist which gets +1,+1 per 2 weapon skill levels ...

So lets say Grand Mastery (lvl15) in Swords vs lvl11 Polearms

Random Sword gets +25 ToHit, +19 Damage, +36 DV at 370 Energy
Random Polearm gets +17 ToHit, +12 Damage, +36 DV at 585 Energy

Closer than I anticipated ... Would the additional damage from the suffix be enough to make the slower swings and lower ToHit acceptable?

Blank4u47

08-10-2016, 08:16 PM

At higher levels, I'd say no. Mainly because more swings gives you more room to retreat, more chances to crit and penetrate. However, at low levels before you find anything else good, I think using it would be a good idea.

Sian

08-11-2016, 08:18 AM

Adamantium Warhammer of Slaughtering (+0,3d5+9) ... eh, close enough

Sian

09-02-2016, 08:12 PM

Gotten back to my Ultra attempt after letting it rest for a while and have just gotten Medal of Chaos by the old bitch ... Is it possible to go to my Alignment of choice and getting crowned (want to be Lawful) or is there something else that have to be done before?

Grond

09-02-2016, 09:20 PM

Yes. The only alignment check remaining (aside from extreme alignment for entering the gate) is being non-chaotic to receive the trident.

Sian

09-03-2016, 07:01 AM

okay then, beefed my gear a bit so now (with Vanquisher equipped) I'm at DV/PV 76/64 on normal tactics, with these intrinsics

You are fire resistant
You are poison resistant (also through an item)
You are cold resistant
You are acid resistant
You are lucky (also through items)
Fate smiles upon you (also through an item)
You are sleep resistant
You are teleporting
You are able to control teleportation
You are strun resistant (gained through an item)
you are paralyzation resistant (gained through an item)
You are resistant to death rays (gained through an item)
You are shock resistant
You are able to see invisible things (also through an item)
You are immune to shock attacks
You are immune to fire attacks
You are immune to acidic attacks
You are able to resist confusion attacks (gained through an item)

You naturally heal one hit point every 30 turns
You naturally regenerate one mana point every 38 turns

Only thing that for me springs to mind as missing is Petrification resistance ...

Currently wearing Preserver, Vanquisher, Ring of the Master Cat, Bracers of War and Orb of Fire, and a load of heavily smithed items.

How deep should I be able to dive without major issues? ...

timeywimey

09-03-2016, 11:28 AM

I'd say you're perfectly set for the rest of the game. Head for the blue dragon caves to grind for xp / items and finish the quest there.

Also a friendly tip: no reason not to be at least on aggressive tactics. The +hit and +dmg bonii vs the dv lost are way +ev imo. At least if you have the skill, which you absolutely should always have.

Sian

09-03-2016, 02:06 PM

Also a friendly tip: no reason not to be at least on aggressive tactics. The +hit and +dmg bonii vs the dv lost are way +ev imo. At least if you have the skill, which you absolutely should always have.

I usually default into using Very Aggessive ...

my skills are:

Appraising 100
Athletics 100
Backstabbing 100
Bridge Building 19
Climbing 86 [+1d3]
Concentration 100
Courage 100 --- First kill were a Giant Frog, and I've killed 21 of them so Flik shouldn't be stupidly far away
Detect Traps 78 [+1d3]
Find Weakness 100
First Aid 64 [+1d5]
Gemology 100
Haggling 30 [4d5]
Healing 100
Listening 100
Literacy 100
Metallurgy 100
Mining 100
Pick Pockets 74 [+1]
Smithing 100
Swimming 89 [+1d3]
Tactics 64 [+1]
Two Weapon Combat 47 [+2d4]
Ventriloquism 44 [+3d3]