Ultra Paragon - possible?

[Booster]

I've got a few ultras under my belt and was thinking about trying this out as a challenge game. From what I read on the wiki completing Gaab'Baay's final quest to get the Amulet is a chaotic act, which would make getting and equipping the girdle impossible. A few questions:


Does performing chaotic acts disqualify this, or simply moving your alignment towards C? The reason I ask is that Chaos Knights start the game at -10000, which is already the lowest you can be.
Relating to the above, finishing GB's final quest drops alignment by -1000 from what I see... I wonder if it is technically possible to remain at -10000 alignment before finishing this quest. This would be extremely difficult as if would mean not saving Khelly and finding 6 artifacts to feed the ratling relatively early in the game. I would imagine this would be Phial, Crown of Science, Mummy wrap, Ankh + 2 more (possibly AoME). RoHK you would need to get past EG without killing/attacking it so that's a no go.

Not killing lawful creatures would be a given, but I wonder if chaotic acts can be worked around if your alignment isn't technically dropping. Maybe you would still be able to kill lawfuls as your alignment isn't going to drop any more, but that isn't something I'd want to test :)

I know it's possible to get the girdle and then complete GB's quest, but then you're not really a paragon of order - you just have a belt you can't use.

I suppose I can try this in exploration mode by wishing myself incredible gear to plow through everything, but was wondering if someone knew the mechanics before I attempt this.

[Sian]

I'm not sure, but I seem to recall that it was changed to only checking if you killed any Lawful creatures, as otherwise it would be to much of a luck-check

[Jouni]

I'm not sure, but I seem to recall that it was changed to only checking if you killed any Lawful creatures, as otherwise it would be to much of a luck-check

Requirements for Paragon (after the change) are that you can't kill any lawful creatures, and you can't do any chaotic acts. The problem here is with the latter requirement, since finishing Gaab'Baay's final quest is a chaotic act and there is no way around it.

As for the original question, I doubt that would work. Even if it does, you would have to be really careful not to do anything to raise your alignment before finishing all of GB's quests. Being a chaos knight helps because they get only 1/10 of alignment gains compared to other classes, so killing minor chaotic creatures doesn't seem to increase their alignment at all. I'm not sure how alignment works exactly, but if stronger monsters give more alignment gains, that might be a problem.

[Booster]

I read an account of this done way back in the day by creating a wish engine, and dragging GB down to D:48. The player then popped down to D:50 to spawn to the Girdle, and went back to D:48 to hand in the final ingredient for the Amulet. Of course, that meant losing the Paragon status but the belt was acquired before completing the final quest.

I may end up having to waste a few good hours on an exploration game to see if this is doable and then play a real game...

[sweetnothing]

I would imagine this would be Phial, Crown of Science, Mummy wrap, Ankh + 2 more (possibly AoME). RoHK you would need to get past EG without killing/attacking it so that's a no go.

There's a guaranteed trident, you could try, good luck.

I don't think it would work though. The condition is that no chaotic acts performed, it doesn't say "no alignment drops have happened". So you should expect it is programmed in this sane way.

[Booster]

There's a guaranteed trident, you could try, good luck.

I don't think it would work though. The condition is that no chaotic acts performed, it doesn't say "no alignment drops have happened". So you should expect it is programmed in this sane way.

Trident would be out either way, as rescuing Blurp would increase your alignment past the -10000. The only way I think it could possibly work is if you would remain at -10000 before handing in the final quest for GB

Another item I thought about - does Filk always spawn friendly/neutral? Awhile back I remember dropping from NC to CN because I attacked him. If I kill him with a trap will that count or do I need to get the kill? I imagine a sqeaking board trap would suffice for that.

[Soirana]

There's a guaranteed trident, you could try, good luck.

I don't think it would work though. The condition is that no chaotic acts performed, it doesn't say "no alignment drops have happened". So you should expect it is programmed in this sane way.

Definition of chaotic act program wise seems to be "alignment drop have happened"...

I think most notable case is druid quest. It draws char towards N= and completing it as L, is actually chaotic act.

RE Filk: You can read scroll of monster aggravation to turn monster hostile...

[_Ln_]

There's a guaranteed trident, you could try, good luck.

I don't think it would work though. The condition is that no chaotic acts performed, it doesn't say "no alignment drops have happened". So you should expect it is programmed in this sane way.

How it is programmed internally is highly debatable.
Completing the druid quest while lawful will move your alignment towards chaotic and it breaks the Paragon code.

Consider the following implementation - there is a single routine ChangeAlignment that checks the current alignment, applies the required change and computes the resulting alignment. It might then calculate (newAlignment - oldAlignment) and break the Paragon condition if this expression is negative. This will allow you to automatically cover all situations (such as the druid quest while lawful which has specific internal logic). It seems reasonably sane to me.

With this implementation and being a CK having -10000 alignment at all times might actually allow you to never commit a chaotic act. But probably not because you have to save Khelly. Unless you level to 50 before doing so and even then it will probably be enough to account for several dozen stones.

EDIT: or you can satisfy the witch before saving Khelly. We won't know unless someone tries.

EDIT2: Also, Soirana, do you read my mind at all times or something? :D

[Booster]

That is precisely what I want to try:

1. Don't kill any lawfuls + don't commit any lawful acts until completing GaabBaay's quest. I think this may be doable as a CK since any lawful act is 1/10th value - the only issues is if you kill a major dragon/daemon which does increase your alignment. I wonder if killing steel golems would also cause this to shift - leaving DF out of the equation will make getting 6 artifacts very difficult
2. Once you complete GB's quest, start moving towards L+. At this point you can save Khelly, and crown L+.

Could be interesting ... :)

[sweetnothing]

How it is programmed internally is highly debatable.
Completing the druid quest while lawful will move your alignment towards chaotic and it breaks the Paragon code.

Consider the following implementation - there is a single routine ChangeAlignment that checks the current alignment, applies the required change and computes the resulting alignment. It might then calculate (newAlignment - oldAlignment) and break the Paragon condition if this expression is negative. This will allow you to automatically cover all situations (such as the druid quest while lawful which has specific internal logic). It seems reasonably sane to me.


Indeed... But I don't want to change my bet! Let's imagine it compares (newAlignment - oldAlignment) before cutting it to -10000 ;) It's actually more likely that this difference is passed directly to ChangeAlignment as an argument.


Trident would be out either way, as rescuing Blurp would increase your alignment past the -10000.

Ice Queen vault then?

[JellySlayer]

Phial, Moon Sickle (if above Khelly), 2x Mummy Rewards. Elemental gauntlets should be okay as long as you're careful about what you kill there. Ideally you'd do a teleport raid and just grab them. You can probably get black torc... at worst, have a giant slug kill the druid himself for the torc. You don't need to complete the quest.

[Booster]

Phial, Moon Sickle (if above Khelly), 2x Mummy Rewards. Elemental gauntlets should be okay as long as you're careful about what you kill there. Ideally you'd do a teleport raid and just grab them. You can probably get black torc... at worst, have a giant slug kill the druid himself for the torc. You don't need to complete the quest.

Elemental and Torc wouldn't work - you need to be non-Chaotic to get the quest that opens those dungeons up.

[JellySlayer]

Ah, you're right. I don't play a lot of CKs, so I forget some of those requirements.

Without Darkforge, you'll probably need to get lucky with artifacts then. Frost Giant Cave vault would be an option, but, you'd have to raid it since pretty much any monster you encounter in a greater vault is likely to give a lawful boost upon killing. Hmm...

Could range a bit farther afield... AoTME and weird tome, for example. Assuming Chaotic CKs can get the weird tome.

[Jouni]

I just cleared Darkforge and Pyramid with a (exploration mode) chaos knight, checking alignment before and after with a scroll of balance. It stayed at -10000, so neither of those places yielded a single point of alignment. So it seems that alignment from killing chaotic monsters isn't really an issue then.

However, for what it's worth, Law skill gives messages about transgressing some law even if your alignment was at the lowest already. So if the trigger for that is the same as the trigger for failing Paragon, then it seems that finishing Gaab'Baay's quests even if you're still at -10000 alignment won't allow you to become a Paragon.

Of course I can't be sure without actually getting to D:50 after that; it's still possible that the eligibity for Paragon is checked differently after all.

[_Ln_]

You can't get to Frost Giant Caves while chaotic.

AoTME, RoTHK and the weird tome can be obtained. That would probably be the most extreme ratling fodder choice, haha.

Any problem with high-end monsters can be bypassed with a sufficiently powerful pet.

[Carter]

I read an account of this done way back in the day by creating a wish engine, and dragging GB down to D:48. The player then popped down to D:50 to spawn to the Girdle, and went back to D:48 to hand in the final ingredient for the Amulet. Of course, that meant losing the Paragon status but the belt was acquired before completing the final quest.

I may end up having to waste a few good hours on an exploration game to see if this is doable and then play a real game...

Your thinking of this one: http://adom.brinkster.net/hof/flg_disp.asp?display=ayukawa-edit.txt

BTW i consider the account / validity of that win is highly dubious. Scumming for potions of exchange in the ID while trying to remain a paragon is basically impossible since in that version ANY lawful creature that died lost you the girdle. The number of turns is also way too low.

[Booster]

So far my run on exploration mode is going well - I'm scumming here and there, like in DF to generate an artifact to sacrifice. Just finished GB's final quest and am on my way to convert to L+; I did wish for Law (stuck at 20) and got the transgressing some law message, but alignment remained at -10000 before and after, so we'll see.

Items sacrificed to Rat - Robes of Resistance (scummed from DF), Crown of Science, Mummy wraps, Ankh, Phial, Moon Sickle. In a non-scummed unlucky game I think weird tome might be the safest bet.

Found some great items naturally so far too (AoLS, RoEM, 7LB, 3 scrolls of danger) and I'm down to 14 wishes.

Questions:
1. Does eating lawful corpses count as a transgression (such as blink dog corpse)?
2. If dropping alignment is indeed the factor that disqualifies, would converting and/or sacrificing a C altar while at -10000 stones count against this? I haven't touched altars this game yet, but it would make life a lot easier to have access to holy water in the early game

[Soirana]

Questions:
1. Does eating lawful corpses count as a transgression (such as blink dog corpse)?
2. If dropping alignment is indeed the factor that disqualifies, would converting and/or sacrificing a C altar while at -10000 stones count against this? I haven't touched altars this game yet, but it would make life a lot easier to have access to holy water in the early game
To my best and limited knowledge:
1. No
2. -10.000 stone is C allignment. Chaotics can't convert C altars, no idea otherwise. although sucking some gold especially in small portions can't be worse than crones quests.

[Booster]

Well, I think I followed everything a Paragon should aside from GB's quest but no dice - I got to D:50 without any special message or girdle. My kill list was free from lawful creatures, and I never committed any chaotic acts (or anything that would drop my alignment).

I must have used 20 wishes on scrolls of balance to periodically check alignment. Once I got 6 artifacts I completed the other requirements for GB (dragged a farmer to get mauled by a bear). Before I gave in the final item for GB my alignement was -10000, and only after I converted to L, saved Khelly, etc. While testing the best way to increase alignment I must have fed a poor beggar with over 1000 fat worms/rat tails/bat wings, which actually is a really cheap way to gain a lot of alignment... I must have jumped ~500 points this way, which would be 5k normally.

The only times I actively attacked peaceful/friendly creatures was the Black Unicorn and Filk, and I did so by shooting an arrow behind them, which didn't cause an an alignment drop. Other potential issues:
1. I ate a blink dog corpse
2. Lost a few pets?
3. I was punished for giving a beggar food poisoning

Bummer - this would have been an extremely challenging and fun game to play normally.

[gym21]

Eating a blink dog corpse does not prevent you from getting the girdle

[Carter]

Well, I think I followed everything a Paragon should aside from GB's quest but no dice - I got to D:50 without any special message or girdle. My kill list was free from lawful creatures, and I never committed any chaotic acts (or anything that would drop my alignment).



1) is it possible CK has a native return to C- or that 2) Thomas just disabled the girdle for CKs

[grobblewobble]

Well, I think I followed everything a Paragon should aside from GB's quest but no dice - I got to D:50 without any special message or girdle. My kill list was free from lawful creatures, and I never committed any chaotic acts (or anything that would drop my alignment).

3. I was punished for giving a beggar food poisoning

I think that point 3 might count as a chaotic act? Killing a cat by feeding it poisoned meat will ruin the cat quest, too.

Another thing that *might* count as chaotic (not sure) is having the backstabbing skill and attacking a monster that isn't aware of you. I try to avoid the backstabbing skill when going for paragon.

[Booster]

Point 3 was actually more a sarcastic/frustrated point - because I gave the poor beggar literally hundreds of batwings/rat tails/etc, he would have to have an iron stomach to not get food poisoning. I didn't actually give the beggar poisoned food :)

[Booster]

1) is it possible CK has a native return to C- or that 2) Thomas just disabled the girdle for CKs

I probably wasted 30 wishes on scrolls of balance and would periodically check my alignment - CKs don't naturally "regress" towards C-. As far as I know I didn't once move my alignment towards Chaos; the only time I would have was finished GB's last quest but I was maxed out at -10000 so it didn't technically decrease.

[Blank4u47]

I think that point 3 might count as a chaotic act? Killing a cat by feeding it poisoned meat will ruin the cat quest, too.

Another thing that *might* count as chaotic (not sure) is having the backstabbing skill and attacking a monster that isn't aware of you. I try to avoid the backstabbing skill when going for paragon.

Backstabbing skill is in no way chaotic. I've done paragon quest with backstabbing.

Also, booster, Check your monster kill log and see if you killed any lawful creatures such as blink dogs or dwarfs

[Booster]

Kill log was clean - I made a list of every lawful creature and was sure to avoid killing them directly... I don't think I even killed anything lawful indirectly. The only hostile acts I engaged in (such as killing a peaceful Filk) was done by shooting behind him which didn't cause an alignment drop (checked before and after). I recall even gaining a few stones after killing him.

I think the only way to rule out if Thomas disabled the girdle for CKs is to do a non-ultra dive to D:50 without doing any chaotic acts - that would confirm that finishing GB's quest would be the culprit

[Blank4u47]

Kill log was clean - I made a list of every lawful creature and was sure to avoid killing them directly... I don't think I even killed anything lawful indirectly. The only hostile acts I engaged in (such as killing a peaceful Filk) was done by shooting behind him which didn't cause an alignment drop (checked before and after). I recall even gaining a few stones after killing him.

I think the only way to rule out if Thomas disabled the girdle for CKs is to do a non-ultra dive to D:50 without doing any chaotic acts - that would confirm that finishing GB's quest would be the culprit

Yeah I think you're correct. Also I know for certain shooting behind a creature is not unlawful.