greater vaults

[blunk]

Am I wrong or can greater vaults "only" be:
Guv, ggv and fire vault with various layouts.

Would be cool with great ice and black dragon vaults too, on the other hand that would reduce the risk of guv.

On a side note my current holiday character skipped one of the worst possible greater vaults.
Guv with silver key and a polearm.

[Blank4u47]

Am I wrong or can greater vaults "only" be:
Guv, ggv and fire vault with various layouts.

Would be cool with great ice and black dragon vaults too, on the other hand that would reduce the risk of guv.

On a side note my current holiday character skipped one of the worst possible greater vaults.
Guv with silver key and a polearm.

I think that only applies to FGJC5 greater vault... I think I remember from forever ago getting a greater black dragon vault, but my memory is a bit hazy.

[JellySlayer]

Supposedly there is a greater karmic vault. I don't remember the last time I've seen one, but that's what the Guidebook says.

There's an outstanding RFE (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=1724) for new greater vaults.

[gym21]

I had a greater karmic vault with a duelist once. Obviously I went nowhere near it.

[Blasphemous]

Had a karmic vault once as well. Horrible experience.

[Blank4u47]

Had a karmic vault once as well. Horrible experience.

Speaking of karmic dragony type things, don't you get a lot more treasure from them?

[Soirana]

Would be cool with great ice and black dragon vaults too, on the other hand that would reduce the risk of guv.

I think greater vault can be of any dragon type.

There was theory that greater vault can be undead, giant or dragon and if dragon is rolled than it is randomized further on. So GUV is still 1/3, while karmic vault would be like 1/15 chance.

I also so wonder why frost giant vault is fixed on red dragons and not white ones...

[Carter]

I think greater vault can be of any dragon type.

There was theory that greater vault can be undead, giant or dragon and if dragon is rolled than it is randomized further on. So GUV is still 1/3, while karmic vault would be like 1/15 chance.

I also so wonder why frost giant vault is fixed on red dragons and not white ones...

I don't think there is such a thing as a white dragon vault. There were no frost salamanders / ice lizards in previous version so what would be in the intermediate pockets?

Karmic being 1/15 sounds about right. I've cleared one out with a wizard using magic missile but it is essentially impossible with most chars. It is actually worse than a GUV (which is actually alot easier now)

I have a RFE that suggests we should have

golem vaults
ice vaults
demon vaults
acid vault
duelist vault

etc

[Soirana]

I don't think there is such a thing as a white dragon vault. There were no frost salamanders / ice lizards in previous version so what would be in the intermediate pockets?

in 1.1.1 people said otherwise http://adom.brinkster.net/forum/messages.asp?thread=3156&start=31984&page=1&tmp=32690.

I am pretty sure I did these in past and my faulty memory suggest chaos lizards (although logic says pockets would be field with baby dragons and I would go with logic this time).

I've run quick test on r60:
10-red
8-giants
12-undead.

Which corresponds well to my memories than I went through Steam achievements, can't recall last time I saw non red dragon vault.

edit: Well, again, maybe I am mixing minor/greater vaults. Although I could swear I recall doing greater black dragons, which was pain in the ass due to item destruction...

[Booster]

I had a greater karmic vault with my first ever legit win with a Drakeling Paladin. PC:7 had a surge of power with whirlwind which I used quite a bit during the game. D:33 had an ant hole that I left alone (had intrinsic invis) and they destroyed the entire level. D:35 had the vault. Whirlwind + hundreds of stones = happy Paladin.

The only vaults I've seen to my recollection was Karmic, Undead, Red Dragon, Giant/Titan... would be great to have more variety in those

[Blasphemous]

Speaking of karmic dragony type things, don't you get a lot more treasure from them?

I didn't notice. If there is a higher amount of treasure from karmics, it must be by a very small margin.


Although I could swear I recall doing greater black dragons, which was pain in the ass due to item destruction...

I recall a greater black dragon vault as well, also in 1.1.1.


I had a greater karmic vault with my first ever legit win with a Drakeling Paladin. (...) D:35 had the vault.

Apparently vault type somehow correlates to level on which it's generated. I remember somebody mentioning once that karmic vaults are so rare because they can only be generated as random vaults.
That's because the guaranteed vaults are on levels that only support a particular type and karmic is not one of those.
D:35 would be reasonable since it's lower DL than the guaranteed D:45-46 GV.
Fire creatures are considered the most powerful of elemental beings, which is why in very high DL areas, that's the prevalent kind. That's true both for CoC and FGJC.
That would be about right, with fire giant kings almost on par with titans, fire elementals tougher than all other elementals and of course legendary great red wyrms that can blind-rage kill an end game char in melee.


PC:7 had a surge of power with whirlwind which I used quite a bit during the game.

PC has 6 levels. It's not unheard of, that a low DL artifact drops in PC:6 vault though. I got scorched spear there once, which was of tremendous help at that stage of the game.

[Carter]

i
Which corresponds well to my memories than I went through Steam achievements, can't recall last time I saw non red dragon vault.

edit: Well, again, maybe I am mixing minor/greater vaults. Although I could swear I recall doing greater black dragons, which was pain in the ass due to item destruction...

there is one configuration of the lesser vault that has a huge amount of monsters, (the more open one) which can easily be confused as a greater vault. That definitely has red/white/black/blue wyrms in largish quantities too.

[Carter]

I had a greater karmic vault with my first ever legit win with a Drakeling Paladin. PC:7 had a surge of power with whirlwind which I used quite a bit during the game. D:33 had an ant hole that I left alone (had intrinsic invis) and they destroyed the entire level. D:35 had the vault. Whirlwind + hundreds of stones = happy Paladin.

The only vaults I've seen to my recollection was Karmic, Undead, Red Dragon, Giant/Titan... would be great to have more variety in those

the only time i had a karmic was in the 30s too - interesting.

[Carter]

I've run quick test on r60:
10-red
8-giants
12-undead.

makes me suspect Karmic vaults are bugged and don't appear any more.

[Soirana]

Apparently vault type somehow correlates to level on which it's generated. I remember somebody mentioning once that karmic vaults are so rare because they can only be generated as random vaults.
That's because the guaranteed vaults are on levels that only support a particular type and karmic is not one of those.

Let's clear few things:
Wyrms of any kind (karmic and elemental) are same DL. Same goes for ancient dragons. Emperor lichs are a tad higher, and titans (regular) are tad lower.

I ma not sure what random/guaranteed means in regards of greater vaults. All greater vaults are predetermined on char generation.

Another theory used to be that first dragon vault is always red and others randomized, but that char I checked on had red dragon vault in frost giant caves and still got bunch of red dragon vaults on d44...


makes me suspect Karmic vaults are bugged and don't appear any more.
If they are something like 1/10... 30 cases don 't prove anything. I've filled a bug report maybe we at least get enlightenment on the topic.

edit:
i've searched a bit on rgra and HoF forums... I did not found any to reliable mentions about non red dragon greater vaults... maybe it's just memory issue and they never existed.

[Rick]

Never saw a Greater Vault different from the three varieties Undeads/Giants/FIRE Dragons. I think in newest versions never appears anymore something different...never happened in hundreds games (I'm still in R59), when I found two dragons vaults, are two RED dragon vaults (it's when I'm happy for the massive XP boost)..would be nice some more randomization...

[blunk]

Same character (human barb) got another GUV in Coc which I also skipped.
Resulted in this artifact list:
the elven long bow "Sun's Messenger" (D49)
the scorched spear (random drop)
the mighty morning star "Grod" (Crowning)
the ring of immunity (Casino)
the silver key (GUV)
the gauntlets of eternal peace "Shezestriakis" (GUV)
the Shirt of the Saints (GUV)
the bracers of war (GUV)
the rune-covered halberd "Wyrmlance" (GUV)

Bracers and shirt were in same GUV on D40.

[Blasphemous]

I ma not sure what random/guaranteed means in regards of greater vaults. All greater vaults are predetermined on char generation.


Indeed, all GVs are determined upon char creation (their location, not monster type, layout or artifacts) but even then, two are always guaranteed - FGJC5 and D:45-46.

Sometimes however, you will also get another greater vault at around D:30-35, which is very rare.
That is the only one as far as I know, that can be karmic.
Again, it's very rare but this one I consider "random", since it's not guaranteed to appear in every game, while the other two are.

[Mansku]

Indeed, all GVs are determined upon char creation (their location, not monster type, layout or artifacts) but even then, two are always guaranteed - FGJC5 and D:45-46.



I can't remember which version I was playing, but a few months ago I was making my way to D50 from Casino. Got two greater vaults. My PC crashed and I resumed play from the .bak file and the vaults weren't there anymore.

[_Ln_]

Indeed, all GVs are determined upon char creation (their location, not monster type, layout or artifacts) but even then, two are always guaranteed - FGJC5 and D:45-46.

Sometimes however, you will also get another greater vault at around D:30-35, which is very rare.
That is the only one as far as I know, that can be karmic.
Again, it's very rare but this one I consider "random", since it's not guaranteed to appear in every game, while the other two are.

I hit 4 CoC GVs in one of the 1.1.1 games. I would assume the same can happen in the current version.

[Soirana]

Sometimes however, you will also get another greater vault at around D:30-35, which is very rare.
That is the only one as far as I know, that can be karmic.

I don 't know anything special about d30-35.... IIRC, GV can be anywhere below wall of flames. In 1.1.1 the most shallow one in reports was d26 (with d25 being wall of flame presumably).

[Blasphemous]

I don't know anything special about it either, probably because there is nothing special.
I'm merely saying where I have encountered that non-guaranteed vault in the past.
It was typically between ~D:30 and D:35, probably could be just about anywhere between the casino and the guaranteed GV.

[Carter]

I hit 4 CoC GVs in one of the 1.1.1 games. I would assume the same can happen in the current version.

Unreliably i have heard of 5 happening the same game. The most i've seen is 4 but that was 3 in CoC and 1 in the Frost Caves.

[Soirana]

It was typically between ~D:30 and D:35, probably could be just about anywhere between the casino and the guaranteed GV.
They definitely can be above Casino in 1.1.1. In 1.2.0 and 2.x.x i have hard times recalling any vault (even lesser) between DT and Casino.

[mjkittredge]

This may be a little off topic, but I saw something weird in the last version before the graphical update/resurrection. My troll healer descended to the level below the casino and found a cavern-like level filled with black unicorns. I think wand of monster detection found about 40 some odd of them. Never saw that before or again.

[Grond]

This may be a little off topic, but I saw something weird in the last version before the graphical update/resurrection. My troll healer descended to the level below the casino and found a cavern-like level filled with black unicorns. I think wand of monster detection found about 40 some odd of them. Never saw that before or again.

Cavernous levels can still have threat rooms. The "room" won't have walls on all sides; so you just see a big rectangle of monsters (but not with unicorns because they teleport).

[Carter]

They definitely can be above Casino in 1.1.1. In 1.2.0 and 2.x.x i have hard times recalling any vault (even lesser) between DT and Casino.


i feel like there are less "lesser vaults" in the new version. Anyone else noticed that?

[Soirana]

I think theory was that they are more 'spread out'. Presumably there is fixed range of how many vaults game generates at start... Since we got more areas (like random dungeons), chance of having vault per individual level ought to be lower.

[JellySlayer]

i feel like there are less "lesser vaults" in the new version. Anyone else noticed that?

I've had this feeling too. Especially, say, between D:1 and Dwarftown I would expect one vault at least reasonably often, and usually two before AF/DH split. Now, I'd say I'm lucky to get one before AF/DH, and it's not uncommon to have none.

[Carter]

I've had this feeling too. Especially, say, between D:1 and Dwarftown I would expect one vault at least reasonably often, and usually two before AF/DH split. Now, I'd say I'm lucky to get one before AF/DH, and it's not uncommon to have none.

there used to be a nigh guaranteed one after DT, maybe D11-D12. Doesn't seem to be there any more. Maybe a RFE is required.

[Blank4u47]

Yeah, I've noticed that too, I remember often getting a vault in d2-3

[Blasphemous]

I've had this feeling too. Especially, say, between D:1 and Dwarftown I would expect one vault at least reasonably often, and usually two before AF/DH split. Now, I'd say I'm lucky to get one before AF/DH, and it's not uncommon to have none.

I recently played a game with 4 lesser vaults in UD alone. That is R51 though.
Perhaps in R60+ it's different.

In the older prereleases, I used to get 1-2 lesser vaults every game, just after descending from DT, either before or after DH.
Now, I can't seem to remember the last time I got a vault there.

[gym21]

UD still has lesser vaults for me but the upper COC almost never does. Which is a shame because they're fun.

[blunk]

UD still has lesser vaults for me but the upper COC almost never does. Which is a shame because they're fun.

Oh I think that is biased memory.
We tend to remember the good luck less compared to bad luck.
I play another game regularly where 60% chance is reoccuring and memory thinks you always get worse than 60% but when numbers are written down they are not.

[gym21]

Oh I think that is biased memory.
We tend to remember the good luck less compared to bad luck.
I play another game regularly where 60% chance is reoccuring and memory thinks you always get worse than 60% but when numbers are written down they are not.

Perhaps! I admit I'm not taking notes when I play. But I'm specifically looking out for vaults between D:1 and Dwarftown (in p60) and don't remember finding them.

[Carter]

UD still has lesser vaults for me but the upper COC almost never does. Which is a shame because they're fun.

potentially a bug introduced when he put in the guaranteed greater vaults

[blunk]

On this topic, I now have a 4/4 GUV with my 2 latest characters a human barb and an orc merchant.
All GUVs skipped, I don't mind the challenge and monster spawn but the aging risks are quite extreme, especially for orcs...
..
.which will most likely garantuee that current grey elf archer will not see a GUV :rolleyes: