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Sradac
03-30-2008, 05:30 PM
I just had a thought when i posted my reply in the god mode thread. If you save scum in ADOM, where do you most typically do it?

I'll tell you me, I ONLY save scum in one place and thats the final fight in the arena before i get the golden gladious. Mainly because I attempt it with characters usually around 10-15 and I know if I get the damn ogre magi im pretty much guaranteed dead since those damn monster casters cheat and dont have to use magic in the cardinal directions. Lets see other than that...Occasionally before going down the rift lol...other than that nope its mostly just the damn arena. Anyone else?

Siriah
03-30-2008, 06:15 PM
I always get the urge to savescum when my character finds some nifty items really early in the game. I have about 5 savegames of such characters backed up, but I haven't touched them. They just sit there being awesome.

yisk
03-30-2008, 06:16 PM
When I passed a ToEF, I saved a game on every turn. If I have missed the enemy - loading. If I have hit and also me have hit - loading. If I have hit and the enemy has missed me - saving. =)))
Saving before each new ladder etc.

When I have started to play fairly, I too began to be afraid of the ogre magus on arena. If the hero does not have resistance to a cold or at least possibility to see invisible, it is better not to risk.)

Macros
03-30-2008, 06:28 PM
I'll tell you me, I ONLY save scum in one place and thats the final fight in the arena before i get the golden gladious. Mainly because I attempt it with characters usually around 10-15 and I know if I get the damn ogre magi im pretty much guaranteed dead since those damn monster casters cheat and dont have to use magic in the cardinal directions.

Hint: Ancient Mummy Wrapping gives both immunity to cold, and see invisible. So it is good idea to attempt on final fight after completing pyramid(which isn't really hard to do).

About topic - I'm not savescumming at all.

Pustka
03-30-2008, 06:40 PM
when im in late game i always say to myself to make a backup in case of mister 291 but i always forget to do it so couple really nice chars were lost =/

Nezur
03-30-2008, 08:37 PM
when im in late game i always say to myself to make a backup in case of mister 291 but i always forget to do it so couple really nice chars were lost =/

I recently lost a Monk with a very nice artifact headgear to a bug and of course I didn't have a backup file...

I don't savescum, I just create backup copies at times for cases like the above.

warheart
03-31-2008, 12:30 AM
I savescummed a lot before, and now I make backup copies, not only because of bugs and such, but because my computer sucks and the hard drive tends to freeze, so I can't save and would lose the char. For example, happened to my gray elf ranger in a dragon vault in D:47. Luckily, I had a backup file and restored it, then won the game. Without a backup copy I would have lost a succesful char (and that's not very common on me :P).

Ryuuku
03-31-2008, 12:53 AM
i copy a save only in one situation when i talk with Khelavaster, too many promising characters died because of signal 11 bug, so i won't risk anymore ... But it is not save scumming ;) Adom is too easy to cheat while playing

Dougy
03-31-2008, 02:46 AM
No save scumming for me for a long time now. I'm hoping not to do it at all in JADE.

Travis Prue
03-31-2008, 03:31 AM
No save scumming for me for a long time now. I'm hoping not to do it at all in JADE.

same here :)

Starhawk
03-31-2008, 07:18 AM
I save-scummed one character once, who had a lot of great equipment, just so i could see the end of the game. I usually tried to "play fair" by only making a backup at each "landmark". For instance, I had to complete the ToEF all in one go, or reload from my backup outside. I had to defeat each Temple in one try, or reload my last save. It was still very hard!!

And now I'm doing my best to beat this game after years and years of trying. Wish me luck....

Dorten
04-01-2008, 04:29 AM
I tried to play fair, but then my best char so far was killed by banshee, so, I decided to win at least once with savescumming, so I will know all that nasty surprises. After a couple of unfair wins, swithed to fair play. Won twice since then, both are regular "Close_The_Gate" endings.

coppro
04-01-2008, 05:27 AM
I have savescummed for the purposes of backups, but I end up frequently using them anyway.

But I have promised myself that once I beat the game (with or without scumming), I will not scum.

Chris
04-02-2008, 11:21 AM
I only make backups of the game after I find awesome items or after about 60 minutes of playing. I'm using ADOM Sage, and the Linux version hasn't crashed, so far. Winbeta 4 used to crash all the time on XP :(

Last time I savescummed was about two-three years ago, haven't even been tempted to reload since then.

Elone
04-03-2008, 10:40 AM
I used to do the same thing as Starhawk, I'd save every turn. I used to do this to get all kinds of wishes from pools, too. I still do it for pools wishes, to get Detect Item Status and 7LB. Lately, I still keep my saves... But only at major checkpoints (For instance, I would also save before ToEF, and I'd not save til I'm out again. If I die, I have to start ToEF all over). From my point of view, those lost hours of life will never come back to me; I lose them, if I let myself die somewhere in the end of game without being able to try again. I definitely feel nice, to finish the game stage by stage. Oh, about wishes... You can wish for all cool items like 7LB, Eternium armours and weapons, various spellbooks and rings, etc, etc. But they will all show up EVENTUALLY. I save-load-wished for a cooking set, and found one later on lv.2 of ID. I felt sad for cheating. I repeat, all those items tend to show up later (except amulet of life saving, but i have finally decided - from now on, in my future games i will close the gate and go back to dragon lair or deep ID. because ultra endings just take away all your power, while with normal ending you can still keep playing)

Macros
04-03-2008, 10:50 AM
You can wish for all cool items like 7LB, Eternium armours and weapons, various spellbooks and rings, etc, etc. But they will all show up EVENTUALLY.

It's not that simple. Yes, there is great chance that you'll find stuff like eternium armours and weapons(actually they're nearly guaranted), but things like 7LB and GoGS(not mentioning about AoLS) can be really hard to find. Few of my characters which managed to close the gate and finish game didn't founded seven league boots during whole game. And most of my chars(those who managed to win the game) didn't ever founded GoGS.

And fact that probably some good items will appear sooner or later, doesn't mean that wishing for them in early or mid game is a waste of wish. Actually, it's worth to use wish for stuff like 7LB(for example, there are other really useful items, but I think that 7LB are best from all of them), because with stuff like that you have much greater chance on surviving. Of course if you don't save scumm though. If you do, then yes, it's pointless, because your char is impossible to kill anyway...


From my point of view, those lost hours of life will never come back to me

And if you're playing with save scumming you're not wasting your real life time?:)

borutaman
04-03-2008, 12:26 PM
I don't do it too

sometimes I feel the urge to save before generating the casino level, and when I don't find anything interesting, I could reload - of course, the PC with the first generated casino I consider valid, and if I finish the game with it, I show it to the public

The PC's with 'alternate universe' casino are then played just for fun'n'what-If

Elone
04-06-2008, 05:05 PM
Macros, you have lots of nice points there. For instance, 7LB should be wished for the first, unless it's a matter of life or death. Thing is, more often that not, I find a pair (and then more often 3-4 pairs per character). By the way, whenever I have enough time, I dive very deep into ID. Maybe that's why I always get lots of good equipment. I dont scum the ID, ever! I dived to ID49 in this game, and stayed around to level up. I ensure you that there's a lot of good stuff and a plenty of nice challenges down there (my game is not complete unless I went into deep ID).

Wasted time of my life? We live, we'll die, and once we start to make difference of which thing will change one's life and which will not... For instance, sscumming in ADOM will have absolutely no effect on the rest of my life. No good effects, no bad effects. I make compromise between fun and cheating (though surprisingly, I find it more and more fun to cheat as little as possible lately). I adamantly claim that ADOM is the hardest game that I ever played. Well, hopefully I have gotten that point across (in the way that I wanted).

Now, you mentioned that my character is impossible to kill? I see it in a slightly different way - she'll still be able to die, just, she will finish her quest eventually. I dont create unkillable characters, by the way. I realised that once you scum enough wishes (including the overpowering RoDS scum) and when you get all that you ever wanted, saving the world becomes rather uninteresting all of a sudden, and you just go back to your other (boring) world for days, weeks or months, til you try ADOM again.

Sheesh, since when do I type so much philosophy in so little time?

As a matter of coincidence, I have just finished ToEF with my current character in one go. I tried beating is on several occasions, and never really went further than the staircase. I'm on day 75 now and I'm a walking tank (but that's only because I'm going for a normal ending, otherwise I wouldnt have enough time to dedicate to levels and equipment). But I barely scummed a few checkpoint saves, and it feels good! Wait til I finish an Ultra Ending in one go, someday.

Off to play ADOM. See ya.

Doalag
04-06-2008, 06:09 PM
There is no point to argue about saving or not a game, it's just a matter of preference. For me it's clear, the game has poor hints on everything and play the guidebook in hand and read forums isn't enough to avoid deadly surprise at any point.

For people that never beat the game few times there's ton of reason to play with save backup.

For all people bragging they play the game the true way ie no scumming sissy, I'd answer : Really and you never read the guidebook and forums to get many help? You never save back to do some testing?

I think the Starhawk choice is quite good for someone who never beat the game but still very hard. Myself I try apply that but if I have lost too many time a same portion and start to be bored to start it again and again I do an intermediate backup.

Macros
04-06-2008, 07:11 PM
To make it clear: I'm really not bragging here to play in true way. It's your choice. Back in days I was also save scumming(and it was really hardcore save scumming, usually I ended up with over 600 saves in .flg file), so I really don't think it's something terrible(unless you're posting save scummed chars on forums or HoF). All I wanted to say, is that if you're save scumming you'll never learn how to play, and how to avoid all those deadly supsises that RNG have prepared for you.

You've mentioned Guidebook here. Playing with opened Guidebook and forums in background is not enough to complete game. To do so, you need to learn how to play, ie. learn how to avoid dangerous situations, learn how to beat important game moments(like ToEF or mana temple), develop your own strategies. I'm afraid that you won't be able to do it if you're save scumming(as I mentioned I was scumming for long time, and I've actually learned how to play after I decided not to backup saves anymore).


Really and you never read the guidebook and forums to get many help?

When I started playing in "true" way, I didn't really used help of forums(because Polish forums didn't exist then), but yes, I was reading guidebook. However completing game with help of guidebook may be considered as somewhat "spoiled"(by some people, that's topic on different discussion) it's totally different category than save scumming, and I think it shouldn't be compared.


You never save back to do some testing?

After I started playing without save scumming, no.


Now, you mentioned that my character is impossible to kill? I see it in a slightly different way - she'll still be able to die

Hmm I was thinking about something different. Of course your char can die, but if you'll reload save, then it wouldn't be true death. Your char still will be alive - that what I had on mind.

I'll repeat one more time: I'm not bragging here on people to play without save scumming. You can play as you want(or rather in a way that is more fun to you). Good luck with your current char:)

Doalag
04-07-2008, 01:25 AM
I didn't mean you was bragging, on another way I admit I feel a little bragging-like when any people is trying to explain no scumming is the best way to go. :D

I see your point about not be able to learn to face nasty game surprise until you play without scumming. But that's only partially true. One major point is the learning of the right mental attitude. For this point I can only agree with you.

But another major point is to learn major base things, to identify monsters types, know a bit their capacities, be used to to some major tactics and traps, be used to discover and search possibilities. There's a lot to learn even with save scumming, apart if you save back for cheating or if you constantly save at each step. Sure the game will always have plenty nasty surprise for you but a lot can be learned even with save backup and even more with rules as explain Starhawk. I'm pretty sure that despite save backup I learn a lot anyway, and the game has tons of basics to learn and get used to.

I even have evidence of this, for example I rised a lot my chance to do the first part without to die. Another example is that the first time I met a special place it's most often tougher and that lower the rate success than after to have do it some times.

Sradac
04-07-2008, 02:50 AM
haha yeah surprises are great. First time I was in ToEF I tried to sacrifice the ancient wyvern guardian and got "You'd make a better sacrifice why not sacrifice yourself" message. A bit confused I went in for the fight and wandered on top of the altar myself. My 28 human ranger got sacrificed! LOL I had NO idea that NPC's could sacrifice the PC! I was a bit mad yeah but at the same time I laughed to myself and thought wow TB thought of everything when he made this game. I actually like surprises. They seem a lot more meaningful of a learning experience when you loose a character that you dont backup. Like the first time I tried to enter the rift with a wizard I had he was waaaay overweight and fell to the bottom of the rift...needless to say I died lol. If I had a backup of that I woulda just been like "Oh, okay so thats what happens. Lets get rid of some gear" But no it was more like "Awwww man! I shoulda thought before I did that I knew TB went for as much realism as he could with this. It just makes total sense that you would fall while trying to climb down a huge hole in a mountain with 5000 pounds of gear on your back!" Makes ya think a lot more without scumming. I mean yeah after all these years there really arent any surprises left in ADOM for me except for the ultra endings I havent done any of those or been to the scintilating cave but other than that im pretty sure i've seen everything. Never did the frog quest either i've only hadm male characters get a froggy jump out of the pool.

Elone
04-07-2008, 05:15 PM
I played Adom for half a year before I first savescummed. Back in 1.0.0 you could duplicate any item imaginable by manipulating the temporary files that ADOM creates in temp_dat folder. If you try it now, the game will crash. I carried about 400 rings of Wish, and I maxed all my stats without mercy. A year later, I found The Guidebook. It was the txt version, so I started literally learning the game (and nowadays I claim that i know 95% of the guidebook, excluding rumours, cookies, and some char creation issues). I savescummed not to make a backup in case of death, but literally to defeat RNG as is. Each time I finished the game (2-3 times) was an ULE. This is the first time I go for NE, and I tell myself, "Duh, I dont have to go for 60% of those quests now! Feels so weird." Actually, by keeping posting here, I say a bit about that character from time to time. But just to stay on topic, I'll say that even tho I make backups, she havent died even once... I cant look now, but someone said, "As soon as you start feeling confident, you're dead." It's proven true and I advise you to remember it whenever needed. Too many people say "I can take him out!" coupled with "...and if I dont, I can always reload."

A definite spoiler:

For some of the best character-boosts in ADOM,
you dont need a savescum. Go into ID deep enough, find a baby dragon,
and let him get all your gold. Kill. Try again when possible. Go visit Garth
and pay him enough money (you can create up to 2.560.000.000 this
way, after that, it wraps). Read the GB for instructions on how much to
pay. I got my stats to about 50 by paying about 200.000.000 per stat,
and I will stop there - I'm well-aware that going for more... will ruin my
game. I'll rather control myself than kill my own fun.

In addition, with that gold, you can literally buy your god. Who
says that you cant buy love with money?

P.S. A blessed Girdle of Greed is mandatory. But it has its
advantages - it will solve your burden problems for the rest
of the game.

I'll say this again: I'm going for NE for the sole purpose of removing corruption, so that I can continue my game (the very exploration, especially blue dragon caves and definitely ID, for maximum neverending exploration) without any pressure involved.

Off to play eeeven more, see ya!

Doalag
04-07-2008, 08:02 PM
Sadrac : For some games you share a logic for some other you don't. For me ADOM it's definitely the second case. The rift is a good example, I never get there but for me there's no evidence that if I carry ton of stuff with the Atlas spell without any effort that this could involve anything in the rift. The same goes for carrying stuff and just be a little burden. Even with higher burden, I bet I'll never guess the result and with ton of thinking before. The only thing is if you are highly strained then you can fall in stairs and a very good day facing the rift and highly strained I could remember that. The problem is if I do those sort of thinking I'll not do many stuff I can do in fact.

All in all I don't feel the hints of ADOM good at all. For many they are too obscure for me, for many other they aren't linked with the stuff they hint and that makes me forget them and for few provided with the event/stuff they hint they are too rare that I don't search this sort of stuff anymore. ADOM is good elsewhere, at least for me.

But yes when the whole game is lost that push you more to remind the lesson but with rare backup that's also highly unpleasant because you lost a lot of time anyway and often some nice stuff. In my current game with backup after three lost of a long session I got disgusted and feel the need of a temporary breeze and start a new game in parallel. The lessons was pretty basic :
- When sick always get a higher care to your Hits level.
- After to become sick constantly remind that your hits drop down of 50%. You setup some routine about hits check to put elsewhere your attention but now all this must be unlearned now you are sick.
- When sick either take care to ensure continue be sick or put extreme care of the last disease attack.
- When swimming never relax your attention it can goes very fast and let you die even with a high Swimming skill.

About the frog quest you don't need the pool I think, try talk to non aggressive frog you met, they could say you they are a prince and want a kiss. It happened to me once when I tried some with a priest. Well I just get a pustule and -1 to AP!

Elone:
Yes that's so true : "As soon as you start feeling confident, you're dead." It's not only confident it's also the game makes you sometimes sleepy fro something, for example swimming is nice, constant check to hits, ok then your attention goes elsewhere during few click... dead! Those both reasons, closely linked sum easily more than 50% of my death. I agree with no save backup you'll learn better fight this but when you don't save often and lost a long session, it's a lot of pain anyway.

Girdle of greed can be a very dangerous thing, if it get destroyed the char could be crush! I'm not sure but eventually this can even happen if it is only curse.