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View Full Version : The Drakalor Chain in JADE



Tannis
03-31-2008, 03:21 AM
I'm surprised we haven't done this thread yet, so here it is. Thomas said that the DC won't be featured in the initial release of JADE, and that's fine. Implementing it would be a lot of coding and I think we're all patient enough to see the Chain implemented a few versions later. However, it will eventually need to be in the game. Here's my thoughts on it.

For one thing, once the Drakalor Chain is implemented into JADE, it should be present in every single game. It would make no sense for it to be sometimes generated and other times not. After all, this is a large landmass and JADE takes place only a few centuries after ADOM. The Chain would not have disappeared, so logically speaking you should always be able to find it, even if its relationship to the world generated in a given JADE session varies.

This permanence has its advantages. In many threads we grapple with the issues raised by a completely random world. Having one fixed region in an otherwise random world solves a few problems. If you want any non-random quests or artifacts, throw them in the Drakalor Chain. So that's something to think about.

What I'm more interested is the evolution of the chain in the time elapsed since ADOM. Some features can be dispensed with: If the village dungeon, puppy cave, and UD are still there or gone, that's not a big deal since those weren't interesting areas. But there are plenty of other interesting areas which I'd like to discuss.

Terinyo: It's been a few centuries and the chain has been peaceful since Chaos was vanquished, so one would expect to see a larger town, which allows for more quest opportunities. Even though the geography of the Chain should have a few fixed features, the quests and npcs you find can have plenty of randomness too.

Outlaw town: Does it still exist? If so, a source for plenty of chaotic quests.

Water Dragon cave: Dragons live for incredibly long times and are hard to kill, so I would expect to see the water dragon again. However, since she's older she should also be tougher. That means her treasure horde is up for grabs if one is in a dragon killing mood, but she should be a harder fight than before. I would also suggest that high level monsters in JADE like ancient dragons and whatnot should be able to cast basic spells like Light. The darkness trick against her was always a bit cheap.

Infinite Dungeon: I believe it's the minstrel who tells you this, but the ID was a temple of Order corrupted by Chaos. With Chaos gone, the infinite nature of the dungeon should also be gone. Has it reverted back to a temple of order, or do pockets of corruption still linger?

Darkforge: Dwarves live pretty long, so I'd love to see a return of the Dark Dwarven Smith. This could be a source for more chaotic quests, and perhaps even the fabled spear of raw steel. Since its been centuries, he would have had time to work on new creations. Instead of just steel golems, how about a steel dragon or even a steel titan?

Caverns of Chaos: The cave system should still exist, even if it's no longer the source of all Chaos. Places like the arena and Dwarftown could still exist, but that's not essential. Perhaps the Ogre tribe regrouped and wiped the Dwarves out. So there's plenty of room to add new things to the CoC. The only thing that really can't be there is the Casino. In a limitless game, the presence of the casino would break it. And what about D:50? Perhaps an enterprising Chaotic PC could reopen the gate, though that would require relocating or even recreating the elemental orbs.

The Library: Like the casino, presents the problem of scumming. Perhaps it could still hold a few books, but the ghostly librarian could lament how an adventurer centuries ago made off with the bulk of the books.

Tower of Eternal Flames: The orb and dragon are gone but the tower still stands. Perhaps an elder fire elemental or fire demon has moved in? Better have a ring of ice handy to find out! Another place where fixed features can meet randomness. The tower could always be present, but what's at the top can vary from game to game.

There's a few other areas like bugville or the stone circle, but what I've already said largely holds there too. Do other people agree that the Drakalor chain should always be present? What would you like to see in it?

Grey
03-31-2008, 03:31 AM
I like your ideas, so I feel kinda glad I thought of some first (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php?t=92) :P]

An evolved Drakalor Chain should definitely appear, but it should be heavily changed and though it should have story elements related to ADOM it shouldn't heavily impact on JADE's overall story.

Tannis
03-31-2008, 03:50 AM
I like your ideas, so I feel kinda glad I thought of some first (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php?t=92) :P]

An evolved Drakalor Chain should definitely appear, but it should be heavily changed and though it should have story elements related to ADOM it shouldn't heavily impact on JADE's overall story.

Hah, the worst part is I now remember reading that thread and liking your ideas. Well, we have a long time til JADE so the more discussion the better I guess :p

I agree that the Drakalor chain should not be pivotal to the game. If there is an overarching quest, it shouldn't revolve around the chain.

But the things you can do for nostalgia's sake are boundless.

Sradac
03-31-2008, 10:12 PM
go read my comic on the general forum under adom shorts, it shows what happened to terrinyo =P it got overrun by orcs and apparently a banshee someplace as well!

F50
04-03-2008, 04:53 AM
the casino can stay, but they've fixed the betting machines (now they are like real slot machines), and the Big Casino guard is tougher than ever and immune to teleportation/darkness (as are the rest of them). Security has tightened up a lot since the last time an adventurer stole from the shop.

Tannis
04-03-2008, 05:06 AM
the casino can stay, but they've fixed the betting machines (now they are like real slot machines), and the Big Casino guard is tougher than ever and immune to teleportation/darkness (as are the rest of them). Security has tightened up a lot since the last time an adventurer stole from the shop.

The problem is in ADOM acquiring loads of money, even without the slot machines, was relatively easy. So long as a shop as big as the casino exists, nothing stops you from buying everything and making the items respawn over and over til you get all the top items and even a few artifacts.

F50
04-04-2008, 04:11 AM
Dragon Gold doubling and scumming for other items (say, with gremlins) can get you just about anything. However:

If those problems are not fixed in the JADE drakalor chain, then they won't be fixed in the rest of Anarcadia and if those problems are fixed in JADE, then those problems will be fixed in the Drakalor chain. I don't see how the Casino fits into this. I have never had cash to waste on the casino in ADOM. If I do I talk to Garth instead (and I have never had ub3r stats in ADOM either). You only get this problem if you devote effort into making this a problem, it is universal within ADOM (it is possible to scum for anything), many other games have few checks against infinite scumming, and I don't see how the Casino would aggravate those problems (you can do the same thing with Leggot or Waldenbrook, if you have scummed for semi-infinite cash).

Dougy
04-04-2008, 04:22 AM
The casino in JADE? I certainly hope not. I could understand a few aspects of ADOM transferring to JADE, but nothing too huge - it's meant to be a different game.

F50
04-04-2008, 03:18 PM
Why shouldn't the casino be in the Drakalor Chain? I doubt that shop would be destroyed anytime in the near future from the end of ADOM (especially if the chaos gate was closed).

What is huge about the Casino? Assume that it doesn't generate random artifacts, that the slot machines have been fixed, and that it is much harder to rob from. I have never used the Casino in ADOM except for getting random artifacts (and a JADE casino probably shouldn't do so). Care to give a reason why a slightly modified (in terms of coding effort) Casino would unbalance the game?

Tannis
04-04-2008, 04:45 PM
Why shouldn't the casino be in the Drakalor Chain? I doubt that shop would be destroyed anytime in the near future from the end of ADOM (especially if the chaos gate was closed).

What is huge about the Casino? Assume that it doesn't generate random artifacts, that the slot machines have been fixed, and that it is much harder to rob from. I have never used the Casino in ADOM except for getting random artifacts (and a JADE casino probably shouldn't do so). Care to give a reason why a slightly modified (in terms of coding effort) Casino would unbalance the game?

If the casino was virtually unrobbable, contained no artifacts or wishes, extremely expensive, and the slot machines were fixed, it could work. Those are big ifs, mind you.

reich
04-04-2008, 06:42 PM
The Casino is a creation of Chaos meant to spoil, slow down and help defeat the hero! It will have no right to be after the gate was closed and chaos banished from the world.

Nezur
04-04-2008, 06:48 PM
The Casino is a creation of Chaos meant to spoil, slow down and help defeat the hero!

How do you know that the forces of Chaos created it?

Tannis
04-04-2008, 06:55 PM
How do you know that the forces of Chaos created it?

Compare the color of the slot machines to the chaos plane ;)

F50
04-04-2008, 07:43 PM
If the casino was virtually unrobbable, contained no artifacts or wishes, extremely expensive, and the slot machines were fixed, it could work.

I would allow wishes (RoDS only) and would be a little more lax on the unrobbable requirement, though it would have to be more unrobbable than it is now. If one is strong enough to take on the Casino, then one should have already used several wishes, and thus the no wishing requirement becomes unnecessary.

For the most part, that is what I was suggesting. It would be wrong to remove such a large place from the Drakalor Chain, but it should no longer be so useful.

Tannis
04-04-2008, 08:11 PM
I would allow wishes (RoDS only) and would be a little more lax on the unrobbable requirement, though it would have to be more unrobbable than it is now. If one is strong enough to take on the Casino, then one should have already used several wishes, and thus the no wishing requirement becomes unnecessary.

For the most part, that is what I was suggesting. It would be wrong to remove such a large place from the Drakalor Chain, but it should no longer be so useful.

I won't argue the issue of wishes since I would prefer to see no wishes at all in JADE, but have a sneaking suspicion I'm in the minority on that issue.

I wouldn't say it would be wrong per se to not have the Casino in JADE, or any feature of the Chain for that matter. It has been numerous centuries since ADOM, so one would aspect some areas to have vanished due to the ravages of time.

As for robbing the casino if it is present, such an action should be possible but require more than teleporting, involve a significant fight, and put a hefty bounty on your head.

F50
04-04-2008, 11:09 PM
The casino is an entire dungeon level, if it no longer exists, then it should be a ruin (mimic town).

Other areas that I can't see *disappearing*:

Stone circle (magical)
Arena (low-corruption, important place of commerce, takes a half-level)
Dwarftown, (takes up a whole level)
CoC graveyard (takes a whole level)
Battle bunny room (won't contain battle bunnies, takes a whole level)
Elemental temples (takes half-level, only molochs destroy altars)
Assassin's Guild (multiple levels)
Darkforge (Mechanized infantry, long living Dwarf)

Tannis
04-05-2008, 05:04 AM
[QUOTE=F50;1980]The casino is an entire dungeon level, if it no longer exists, then it should be a ruin (mimic town)./QUOTE]

This is such a good idea it's ridiculous. A massive mimic hive with a mimic emperor at the center would just be awesome.