Kicking off the Ultimate ADOM discussion

[adom-admin]

Here you can find an initial content listing for topics I will discuss over the next weeks regarding the design and development of Ultimate ADOM: http://www.ancientdomainsofmystery.com/2017/12/kicking-off-ultimate-adom.html

[Dervi]

All of this is nice, but one point is particularly pertinent... When you play ADOM, you have something amazing that is called the "bottomless backpack", which can hold hundreds of items if not thousands. Among those items, only a very few are useful. This is probably the only roguelike around with such a system. Having the possibility to recycle all the junk you find would be amazing. Maybe add a skill -- Crafting -- to be able to dismantle items into components and use them to improve other items.

[UltraBlueCat]

Sounds like Smithing.

[SinsI]

Permanent rewards: how should permanent modifications be handled in the future in order to reduce the urge of grinding?
Assuming permanent modifications refer to mainly stat modifications from eating corpses or training, i think it should be handled like this:
Each character has a stat "aptitude" (replacing "potential maximums").
The lower current stats compared to that aptitude, the bigger should be the gain from any eaten corpses or training you do.
This way Trolls that start with STR 19 can readily train up to the average 25 that their race is supposed to have...

Stats should also mainly change "on the go", depending on your actions - similarly to how you can easily train Mana; Garth training and herbs should get smaller
effect for much smaller time investment (i.e. instead of requiring 6 herbs to get a guaranteed change, you would only need one - but the change is not guaranteed at all, and you'd only need one herb per like 1000 turns to maximize their effect).

[Soirana]

Assuming permanent modifications refer to mainly stat modifications from eating corpses or training
I think perm modifications are supposed to be something permanently unlocked for all future chars (like Bugwill unlock).

I am not sure how these can help with grind honestly.

Precrown grind... If one can pass through artifact, that get's boring really fast -- always having preserver/BoW or one of new bloodsucker weapons waiting for you? Fine for one or two runs, but gets boring later.
Same goes for passing equipment honestly -- some stuff is just too good for that (eternium weapon of devastation...)

Stat grind... wasn't all potential changes about making races different, so did that got cancelled?

I think perm progress work best if their unlock funny options/areas. If finishing Ordinary Chaos god was requirement to unlock chaos knight class most people would not object the idea(probably), same goes for optional areas.

edit: I remembered... please do perma unlock of thieves guild:). I don't care what requirements are but not doing pick pockets anymore would be an improvement.

[Adam Taylor]

I think perm progress work best if their unlock funny options/areas. If finishing Ordinary Chaos god was requirement to unlock chaos knight class most people would not object the idea(probably), same goes for optional areas.
Tales of Maj'Eyal did a decent job with this.
You started with a decent select of races and classes. As you played through the game, you could unlock more of each by completing specific tasks, quests or achievements.

For example killing the Master of Dreadfell would unlock one of the undead races at random each time.
Unlocking the Yeek race needed you to rescue a Yeek test subject from a laboratory.

Some were a lot more challenging than others, but it generally gave you things that had more powerful abilities.
Beating the game for example unlocked the Adventurer class (which was basically a blank slate class that let you fully customize instead of having pre-set skill trees).
Unlocking the Marauder class needed you to do over 600 damage in a single hit as a Rogue or Shadowblade (basically you'd have to build up to one hell of a backstab). :p
Meanwhile the Reaver class was unlocking by killing 1000 humanoids across all games you play.

Stuff like that could be interesting. The only issue comes when people don't enjoy the base options you get. You have to make sure that the stuff you unlock is "different" not just "better". Otherwise a lot of those early runs just feel like a chore until you can get the more interesting unlocks.

[adom-admin]

All of this is nice, but one point is particularly pertinent... When you play ADOM, you have something amazing that is called the "bottomless backpack", which can hold hundreds of items if not thousands. Among those items, only a very few are useful. This is probably the only roguelike around with such a system. Having the possibility to recycle all the junk you find would be amazing. Maybe add a skill -- Crafting -- to be able to dismantle items into components and use them to improve other items.

The arrival of our daughter wrecked my blogging time schedule but I really have several plans for that:

Ultimate ADOM will have crafting and it will be possible to turn items into raw materials.
Additionally I envision a kind of alchemy system that allows you to decompose items into its raw elements (fire, water, air, earth, mana like in ADOM Classic/Deluxe as the core elements and corruption as a new core element). Your character would store the elemental energy thus gained and will be able to use it to boost spells or item effects (using the energy up in the process).


I'm also yet pondering whether Ultimate ADOM games still will have an almost unlimited inventory - especially for mobile this presents many UI problems and I'm not too sure if this really has been a good design choice. But I will cover that in a blog post, too.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I personally like the (almost) unlimited inventory. It is true that long inventories can have UI problems, but limited inventories imply tons of micromanagement if one wants to play optimally, which is much more tedious than navigating a large inventory.

In Ultima Underworld, a magnificent game, the limited inventory was the largest weakness in my view, as you spent a lot of time micromanaging. In DCSS, there are commands to kind of automate this micromanagement (marking places as stashes, navigating to stashes, etc.) which I find totally immersion-breaking. At that point, the game becomes a spreadsheet. This is OK in management games like Dwarf Fortress fortress mode, but in a roguelike I want to feel like an adventurer, not a manager.

An interesting middle ground can be found in the TES saga: more or less large but not huge inventory, and the possibility of having a house with personal space to store items. This means that some decisions on what to take are needed, but they are not too overwhelming or tedious, and the house is a way to store the rest of the items that enhances immersion and is much more straightforward to manage than stashes.

[Pustka]

An interesting middle ground can be found in the TES saga: more or less large but not huge inventory, and the possibility of having a house with personal space to store items. This means that some decisions on what to take are needed, but they are not too overwhelming or tedious, and the house is a way to store the rest of the items that enhances immersion and is much more straightforward to manage than stashes.

Having a house in ADOM would be amazing ( or maybe even something bigger like restoring old fortress, populating it with companions and making it into a living place something akin to terraria). But a more simple thing for start would be the possibility to rent a home in villages.

[Jebboh]

I personally like the (almost) unlimited inventory. It is true that long inventories can have UI problems, but limited inventories imply tons of micromanagement if one wants to play optimally, which is much more tedious than navigating a large inventory.

In Ultima Underworld, a magnificent game, the limited inventory was the largest weakness in my view, as you spent a lot of time micromanaging. In DCSS, there are commands to kind of automate this micromanagement (marking places as stashes, navigating to stashes, etc.) which I find totally immersion-breaking. At that point, the game becomes a spreadsheet. This is OK in management games like Dwarf Fortress fortress mode, but in a roguelike I want to feel like an adventurer, not a manager.

An interesting middle ground can be found in the TES saga: more or less large but not huge inventory, and the possibility of having a house with personal space to store items. This means that some decisions on what to take are needed, but they are not too overwhelming or tedious, and the house is a way to store the rest of the items that enhances immersion and is much more straightforward to manage than stashes.

I actually enjoy the system used in the Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead -roguelike where each item has both weight and volume. System nicely enables the use of different kinds of clothing/backbags/holsters (more pockets/storage = more volume available) and models quite well differences between small/heavy and large/light objects (i.e. piece or metal = high weight, low volume --> requires strength but relatively easy to fit into backbag vs empy canister = low weight/high volume, light to carry but hard to fit elsewhere except keep it in hands).

Best,
Jebboh

[ElvisFate]

ADOM reminds me of Ragnarok Online that I played back in 2002 and that's actually a good thing. I hope each classes will have their own usefulness that belongs only to them. I also hope that crafting is much much better in ADOM Ultimate as it takes too long to find a smithy and by then it has already become obsolete. I am a blacksmith by heart. I've always had a blacksmith whenever I played Ragnarok.

Here are some novels that I read where the main characters is a blacksmith or a crafting class that's popular in the east.
- Overgeared - Korean Novel
- Moonlight Sculptor - Korean Novel
- Upgrade Specialist in Another World - Chinese Novel

In Ragnarok Online, there are a total of 10 different type of elements and each type has their own strength and weaknesses. They are Neutral, Water (this also count as cold and ice), Earth, Fire, Wind (this also counts as lightning), Poison, Holy, Shadow, Ghost (they are immune to all physical attack and only elemental weapons and external power can kill them), Undead. As a blacksmith, we have to bring the required materials to forge the weapon and also an elemental orb/gem to give the weapon the element that we want. Blacksmith only has the ability to give the weapons they created either Water, Earth, Fire and Wind. Every monsters in Ragnarok has an element they are strong against and weak to. This is why blacksmith is so popular in Ragnarok and is highly sought after as leveling a pure forging blacksmith is very tedious since you can only put "Dex" and "Luck" as your main stats to increase your chances of a success (took me a year and a half to get my blacksmith to level 81 with both Dex and Luck 81 each). Next, each monsters are categorize as either small, medium, and large. Each weapon does better or worse than the next depending on the size of the monsters. You can check the elemental and monsters/weapons size penalty here.

http://ratemyserver.net/index.php?page=misc_table_attr
http://ratemyserver.net/index.php?page=misc_table_size

I am currently reading a Korean novel 'Overgeared' by Park Saenal (박새날). So basically the main character plays this one virtual reality game and wants to be the best warrior but ended up with a blacksmith class. Essential it's pretty similar to every other game out there that has a blacksmith class but I like the fact that he can improvise on the forging recipe and make the weapons strong point stands out by adding material he thinks will work. There are also weapon grade that goes from Common, Uncommon, Rare, Unique, Legendary, Growth (it can gain experience and level up along with PC but don't mistake this with "Whip of the Vampire Snake" & "Silence of the Dead" ), and Myth. Elona+ also has 'Living Weapon' but that thing is so rare!! Even today, I still have not gotten one even with me cheating thru 'Save Scumming'. Also in the novel, he accidentally created a god tier bow and gain a +1 stat to deity. I have only read it up to this part and it is said that once he reaches +10 stat to deity something will happen. After he had gotten that +1 stat to deity, he gets a message saying he is being watch by all gods...

** Maybe a return of weird tome or a use for scroll of omnipotence at long last for ADOM with the hidden deity stat! I was always curious what scroll of omnipotence does years ago. Now that it's out, I hope someone can fill me in. Haha!
** "Slay gods. Or ascend yourself!" That was taken from ADOM front page and wouldn't it be cool if each class has their own god?

* Weaponsmith/Blacksmith - God of Forging - Create artifact equipment. "Equipment is part of our strength!" (Overgeared Novel)
* Thief - God of Theft - Being able to copy monsters skill or steal one of the monsters stat and add it to your own (temporary). "There is nothing I can't steal!" (Ragnarok Online)
* Wizard - God of Wisdom - Able to combine different magic to create a god tier magic. "Humans are very curious beings!" (Japanese Novel but forgot the name. Slim chance that it will be implemented but if this does get implemented don't tell us the combination to get the god tier magic and make it so that some combination can end in a failure which can either kill you or hurt you or some other permanent side effect)
* Archer - God of Soul/Heart? - The heart flies with the arrow. There is no target that it can't reach and even go thru walls. Can sense all enemies in the map. Kinda overpowered if you ask me but hey! It's base on Chinese novel called Desolate Era on book 13 chapter 35, where the the strongest god which is the god of archery teaches the main character how to use a bow. The author of the book called this 'heartforce' and it's not unlimited but can be train. Also, in the novel if you use every last drop of your heartforce without letting it recovery you can die. "There is no target I can't hit!" (Desolate Era Novel)
* Ect...

This can be balance off by adding 10 elements and equipment penalty from above along with other things. Wizard will definitely be balance with 10 elements implemented in the game... HEHEHE

Moonlight Sculptor is similar to Overgeared so I will be skipping that and head over to a Chinese novel 'Upgrade Specialist in Another World' by Endless Sea of Clouds (茫茫云海). I will try not to spoil too much but for this novel the main character join a crafting guild and somehow manage to insert half of his soul into the weapon that he created making it a soul weapon that can move and act on it's own. Only 3 people in the novel was able to achieve it which was the founder of the crafting guild, his master and himself. It's pretty similar to Cursed Sentry talent from Tales of Maj'eyal but this one is permanent instead of a few seconds Cursed Sentry gives and once it's destroyed it's gone for good and you can't create another one like that. Cursed Sentry on Storm Fury (Longbow) equal god of death!

Here are some lists of ideas for crafting class that I got from reading mostly crafting base Asian novels and from playing Blacksmith class in Ragnarok

* Be able to craft elemental weapons
* Have crafting materials that can add specific stat (ex. add STR but minus intelligent or just plainly add STR)
* Be able to dismantle weapons and armors for crafting material and also be able to forge the weapons and armors you dismantled
- the more you dismantle the same kind of weapons and armors the better stats you will get from forging them (ex. 1% iron spear has a high chance of failure when forging and also gives lower stats than the one that is normally dropped; while 50% gives higher chances from forging while also giving the same stats as the one that is dropped; 100% gives the best chance at forging and better stats from the ones that is dropped)
* Be able to find a weapon blueprint to craft the said weapons/armors starting with 50% equipment familiarity
* Weapons and Armor Soul Compatibility (Taken from 'Upgrade Specialist in Another World')
* In Ragnarok Online, cards can be compounded into Weapons and Gear that have slots. The effect of the card varies. It can add stats, increase maximum health points or spell points. Each monster has its own card and the drop rate varies, although most linger around the 0.001% range or go xianxia style which means that every monsters in the game has a monster core with elemental energies that can be use as forging material. How much the weapons and gear can sustain and stabilizes the energy core will depend on the skill of the forger and the tier of the weapon.

edit. I'll add more later when I get the chance or when ideas starts popping up. This is just a list of ideas for the creator to think of a smart and fun crafting system. =D

[Rostelle]

In designing a future release of anything it's important to note features that are currently inherent and valued in case they unintentionally get removed.
To that end I would like to say one of the features I very much like in ADOM is that I can turn off any sounds without it causing any detrimental effect.
So I can play the game while also listening to whatever else I like as background.
I have no idea if it is intended to increase aural interaction but if it is:
This would probably necessitate a "Turn off sounds" option and may require a "Display textual notifications of sounds option".
It may also require a level of incidental background sound descriptions so the all important "You hear an ominous snarl" isn't too obvious when displayed textually.

[Rostelle]

In designing a future release of anything it's important to note features that are currently inherent and valued in case they unintentionally get removed.
I'm assuming ADOM would remain turn based however there are some games which are part turn based but still run down time if the gamer needs to deal with any of the other non-game related irritations.
I wondered if there was any intent for ADOM to move in this direction and if so could I request there be an option to fix time against gamer responses ? (so not real time)