Diversity in endgame possible?

[szopin]

As never myself reached endgame one thing bugs me quite a lot after watching streamers go through it and it is the generic endgame for all classes. There is basically two forms of endgame archer/mage and warrior endgame types. Former is ranged attacks whether magic or missiles, latter just press arrow key where monster is. There is practically no difference between thief/assassin/beastfighter/monk/paladin/warrior (and merchant/farmer/smith/barbarian/...), only different endgame play is wizard/archer where you keep distance (that includes necromancer/druid/mindcrafter/elementalist/...). While low level play is crazy different, endgame is generic distance or close combat. Shouldn't high level rewards be rebalanced so that druid will have lvl 50 bear on top of good spells, necromancer will have a reason to summon lvl100 skeleton or army of skeletons or similar, with all magic users just using magic missile and fireball and all melee classes just charging at enemies the endgame feels very unlike the start of the game. Not really something to complain about that much as I have never reached it myself, but maybe higher level talents/bonuses should be actually things that impact playstyle (forgetting things like more food from wilderness at lvl 50, rangers just suck)

[Mobius]

By 'endgame', you mean Ultra endings vs YoUkNoWwHo?

For the L50 endgame, I have done it various different ways.
For Ultra, it's pretty much Slaying ammo.

[szopin]

Not even ultra, just after midgame, until midgame things like getting companions by bard is worthwhile, getting your skeletons as necro/mist elf with clay is kinda worthwhile, after midgame most of the characters end up with just a artifact weapon and good more or less armour and from there it becomes melee smash for non-magic characters and range with rare ball spell on the caster side (with few exceptions like slaying ammo). Survival/gameplay options are just crazy rich in early game, by endgame noone cares what exactly bonus they get from class/race as they will funnel into one of these two gameplay types anyway

[Soirana]

Not even ultra, just after midgame, until midgame things like getting companions by bard is worthwhile, getting your skeletons as necro/mist elf with clay is kinda worthwhile
IMHO, early game is just the same -- you either keep distance or bash things with the best weapon you got. Ocassionally char uses wands, scrolls, etc... but well again most players use wand of fireball in the Earth temple.

If you want companions... giant boars make cut in mid to late game (speed, danage, etc) but need a bit of healing support.

Honestly, I played necros a lot and the only reason I raised anything was mana training...

So, honestly I don't think anything the late game is any different from early, except char being better covered for emergencies.

p.s. I don't know how you can call mindcrafters and wizard's end game the same...

[szopin]

IMHO, early game is just the same -- you either keep distance or bash things with the best weapon you got. Ocassionally char uses wands, scrolls, etc... but well again most players use wand of fireball in the Earth temple.

If you want companions... giant boars make cut in mid to late game (speed, danage, etc) but need a bit of healing support.

Honestly, I played necros a lot and the only reason I raised anything was mana training...

So, honestly I don't think anything the late game is any different from early, except char being better covered for emergencies.

p.s. I don't know how you can call mindcrafters and wizard's end game the same...

I'm just guessing on the mindcrafters, not sure if I've ever seen a mindcrafter endgame, is it that different? In the early game your race/class combo does have a lot of impact, troll-healer plays totally differently than (any)elf archer, somewhat differently than (any) merchant assuming coin throws, but quite differently than any bard or wizard, or necro, not that much different than paladin, then again this one will be able to cast spells by endgame classes that can cast spells will, even orc/trolls will most of the time get literacy and the differences just disappear(beastfighter will remain unarmed yay, most classes will abandon starter weapon/skill as they will get more training in rock throwing just from 20 days in the valley...) , original differences/specialities become nothing and it is all about pumping str/con and armour (or int and mana for casters). Probably high level players play mist elf assassin as they play an orc barbarian as the early game is that easy for them, but for most others assassins 4 skills in thrown daggers will be the thing that makes assassins as they can't sneak for shit and the whole backstab thing is not working really (even if it did, you can kill one mob, yay at first vault). Somewhere around midgame the differences of original picks just become meaningless. With talents being better, maybe class/race skills should get the same treatment, so people are not looking forward to more food from wilderness at lvl50, something that will actually support class style of play till the endgame?

Edit: to expand on this, early game is where the classes shine and nowhere else, you start as a bard you can get some beasts to join you, merchant you will get useful information/better prices, healer you will regain hp quicker, thief you will gain extra items from pickpocketing, mindcrafter you have your 'spells' per level, wizard spells but more limited and need to look for books, paladin mix of warrior and a spellcaster, druid is weird as he gets a bear and no way to get it back, but at least it's there (then again bard also gets an animal companion to start I think), necromancer can raise slain enemies... Each class has its own quirks and plays kinda differently (even melee: duelist vs barbarian?), by midgame each char has all weapon marks at the same more or less level so barbarian, ranger, warrior, healer, thief and assassin all use either polearm orone-handed plus shield, it just disappears, the original abilities/quirks don't level with the player, so you might start with a stethoscope in hand, you finish the game with a bastard sword or battleaxe instead and stethoscope is just a minor if totally insignificant gimmick

[Soirana]

With talents being better, maybe class/race skills should get the same treatment, so people are not looking forward to more food from wilderness at lvl50, something that will actually support class style of play till the endgame?

And that would be what?

For record I don't think orc barb and mist elf whatever plays that much different early on. Attack from distance if you can, kill in melee otherwise, if threat is too serious retreat. Well, need to cover elemental stuff for mist elf.

I think Crawl does good job enforcing different playstyles, but once you look at statistics most of (server based) end games look rather similar -- using area nuke spells vs melee based with HP recovery from divine.

ADOM is based on an idea what any class/race can do pretty much anything (mindcraft is probably one true unique ability, although lv50 archer power, necros cheating on death are sweet too), which gives sandboxish freedom, but... well, everybody is going to pick up the best stuff, so after bunch of the best picks, yes chars look pretty much the same.

You can totally play something different - people have won with lv1 chars or used bare handed necros (for that silly special ability), etc.

[szopin]

ADOM is based on an idea what any class/race can do pretty much anything

Is it? Then why limit skill per race and class? Why not give orcs literacy? I believe it is the opposite. ADOM originally sets each playable character as totally distinct, but forgot to pull those class distinctions further to be worth pursuing. Who is going to be taming beasts as a bard at level 30 when they can just go like a warrior hack'n'slashing? Especially that no beast will come close to their eternium sword/armour combo and they got enough marks even as a bard (btw why some classes get marks quicker if all as you say were meant to do anything?). In the end, yeah, some optimal gameplay mechanics rule and whether you're a smith or a bard, no smithing or barding mechanic comes close, so everyone plays like a warrior. I think that smith and bard should have a worthwhile option in their class to finish their game as a smith and bard (and same for necros etc)

[Soirana]

Is it? Then why limit skill per race and class? Why not give orcs literacy?
I suggest reading in the game FAQ section V.L. It is Thomas opinion on melee weapons, but it pretty much looks like the concept is applied to the whole game. (Initial stuff is just like a bit of flavor)

In my not so humble opinion --- it is the game about killing stuff, so, yes, warrior/mage activities will trump bard/smith, cause there is not much for bard/smith to do on the most of levels except to be watered up warrior/mage.

I have not tried in the latest versions (I think pets got seriously nerfed), but previously trained boars (AF was the best area) can definitely keep up with char in damage terms.

[szopin]

> I have not tried in the latest versions (I think pets got seriously nerfed), but previously trained boars (AF was the best area) can definitely keep up with char in damage terms.

Then it would be an exception.

> cause there is not much for bard/smith to do on the most of levels except to be watered up warrior/mage.

Not really. Allowing a lvl50 bard to get stronger companions or impact how quick they level to the player level seems like a normal thing. We accept bards singing songs that impact other companions str/con/stamina as normal in d&d. Having armours/shields give bigger bonuses to shieldsmisth/armoursmith as they are specialists in that exact area seems totally natural. They build those, they know what is stronger in better shields to withstand what kind of blows. Seems totally normal. You can apply the same logic to all other classes, instead of saying that all non-magic classes just need to become warriors in midgame. I just don't see this as 'good for the game', as far as I can tell from watching twitch, it just makes me less and less interested in reaching mid-late game myself, can just go for troll-healer, you will end up with same club bashing monster by then with just less hp regen and all your original skills/quirks forgotten whether you were thief/assassin/barbarian/warrior/merchant/smith...

[Soirana]

You know troll is quite different from non-trolls by mid-game just by having 3-4 levels less and diff will only grow... Not sure how all talks about troll healer support anything. (troll healer is more of a trap, than good char choice, by the way...)

So, smith would have more DV/PV... big thing... why you think this would have any meaningful impact on gameplay?

[szopin]

Give each class meaningful abilities as they level up, I'm not saying smith needs +2 dv/pv, quite the opposite, it should scale with armour level and be unique (yes, removing random +2pv from everywhere else except artifacts is part of it), having bards being able to tame monsters that are useful on D48, yes having necros being able to summon mini-skelly army on D48, yes having white necromancy having similar thing when your mist elf survived that long and not become just a fireball caster, thief/assassin should be practically invisible without invisibility and able to avoid any unwanted confrontation (or start it with huge backstab bonus, instead of current random 'do they see me, do they not, who cares, we'll have to melee them with 100% sneaking and stealthy anyways')... Each class starts with extremely different play style/bonuses, ends up funneled into 2 by late mid game, I don't think this is good, more powerful class bonuses and harder time getting a bard/merchant into a generic slasher would be more interesting to play, if you want a warrior playthorugh just choose a warrior and you got it

[Soirana]

Give each class meaningful abilities as they level up, I'm not saying smith needs +2 dv/pv, quite the opposite, it should scale with armour level and be unique

Fighters have % PV (from some armor) as class ability... it is regarded to be on the same level as less rain in the wilderness by experienced players...

on something like d48/d50... just read few scrolls of fam summoning, and couple of great earth elementals will take care of the most threats (probably anything not balor)...

[szopin]

Great, another example of poorly thought out class bonuses, who is starting a warrior thinking about that % PV at level 30 of 50? Noone, I think that each class should have inticing bonuses, unique to that class as much as possible that will make one go, oh yeah, 2 more levels and we get X, this will be cool to play (even barbarians get some class kill, the double dmg hit? after that it's all cosmetic really)

[szopin]

on something like d48/d50... just read few scrolls of fam summoning, and couple of great earth elementals will take care of the most threats (probably anything not balor)...

Bards should have that as a class ability for example, the fact barbarian or fighter can get it, ok, but need scrolls, bard should get ability to summon/tame few monsters every couple of levels, there, problem fixed, even if it will be lvl 50 ability at least useful (then again everyone finishes the game by lvl 30, maybe thomas needs some help from people who actually finish the game to balance endgame)

[Pustka]

Great, another example of poorly thought out class bonuses, who is starting a warrior thinking about that % PV at level 30 of 50? Noone, I think that each class should have inticing bonuses, unique to that class as much as possible that will make one go, oh yeah, 2 more levels and we get X, this will be cool to play (even barbarians get some class kill, the double dmg hit? after that it's all cosmetic really)

If i decide to roll a warrior i do it exactly with those lvl 30 and 50 powers in mind. MOAR PV!!! :P

edit[merge]:


Bards should have that as a class ability for example, the fact barbarian or fighter can get it, ok, but need scrolls, bard should get ability to summon/tame few monsters every couple of levels, there, problem fixed, even if it will be lvl 50 ability at least useful (then again everyone finishes the game by lvl 30, maybe thomas needs some help from people who actually finish the game to balance endgame)

why should Bard be able to summon/tame any mosters ? this doesn't make sense. Music speaking to animals makes sense. We just need more kinds of powerfull animals or a minigame to befriend an dragons and wyrms with poetry XD Now that would be cool :D