First attempt without save backup and with pets (SPOILS)

[Doalag]

I'm still a newbie in this game and play with some save backup is fine for me. I haven't yet finish the game but I decided to attempt in parallel to my current play to play a game without any save backup.

So if you can help me progress slowly in that game that could be cool. At this point I have made only the puppy saving. Well almost as I applied the little trick to only enter in last level of puppy cave, check puppy is here with companion list command and left to freeze time in this level and finish save puppy later.

At this point I'm not sure what to do next. Trigger Kranach quest or not. Do Rynt quest or Guth'Alak quest or explore a little ID first, visit now Lawenilothehl or give up for later to not risk a sudden death there, go now for CoC and arena level to have cooked lizards and safer food problem plus have more opportunities for more better pets. Have you any suggestions?

Some background for this char:
- Fala is a level 5 hurthling priest. His stats:

St:14 Le:14 Wi:15 Dx:17 To:21 Ch:17 Ap:13 Ma:13 Pe:13 L
DV/PV: 20/6 H: 53(53) P: 32(32) Exp: 5/1432 Sp: 96
Burdened and Tactic to Defence
// His starting stats was quite good, so I suspect the game will be tougher
// with him during the beginning.
// Only increase during puppy cave was ST from 10 to 14 and MA from 12 to 13.
- He knows only those spells:

Cure Disease: 371, 8pp (Effectivity: +2)
Divine Wrath: 293, 12pp (Effectivity: +0)
Light : 230, 3pp (Effectivity: +2)
- His skills:

Archery ................... 11 (mediocre) [+3d3]
Climbing .................. 37 (fair) [+3d3]
Concentration ............. 52 (good) [+4d4]
Cooking ................... 71 (great) [+1] (ma)
Detect item status ........ 76 (great) [+3d5]
First aid ................. 38 (fair) [+4d5]
Food preservation ......... 68 (good) [+3d4]
Gardening ................. 28 (mediocre) [+3d3]
Haggling .................. 30 (mediocre) [+4d5]
Healing ................... 61 (good) [+3d5]
Herbalism ................. 53 (good) [+3d5]
Listening ................. 42 (fair) [+2d4]
Literacy .................. 90 (great) [+2d4]
Music ..................... 90 (great) [+2d4]
Stealth ................... 55 (good) [+1]
// He only trained mainly music for taming asap to do puppy cave.
// And a bit food preservation because starvation problems
// at a point of puppy cave.
- He has also many pets but only two with him and one to guard a stock in Terinyo:

Giant ant queen level 9 or 10. If level 9 it should has:
DV 9 PV 11 Hits 80/95 Atks 1 Dmg 10-24
Giant ant warrior level 3 to 5. If level 4 it should has :
DV 14 PV 10 Hits 25/35 Atks 1 Dmg 4-14
Wolf level 1 who guards a stock in Terinyo.
I'll switch later to the Yergius house which is safer once
Lawenilothehl is cleaned. The problem of using a pet is
that if the char class isn't Bard or Farmer then
the pet could leave you and then left its guarding.
In puppy cave multiple pets.
All are ants including 5 more giant ant warriors levels 1 to 3 or 4.
I could take one to get three pets during progression
but prefer let one tame slot free to be able to tame something
without the hassle of a complex management of pets number per level.
- He has found only a black Altar (at puppy ant level) but has already 1 blessed water potion and 5 water potions plus 2 scrolls of identify so dipping water potions in the blessed potion will be an option if no better altar is found later. Some equipment but most in 2 stocks and to pickup in puppy cave levels.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventory
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total weight: 1332 stones Carrying capacity: 1540 stones

Head : uncursed hat [+0, +2] [4s]
Neck : uncursed splendid necklace [3s]
Body : uncursed studded leather armor (-1, +0) [-1, +3] [250s]
Girdle : -
Cloak : uncursed hooded cloak [+1, +0] [40s]
Right Hand : uncursed spear (+4, 1d8) [50s]
Left Hand : uncursed small shield [+2, +0] [50s]
Right Ring : cursed aquamarine ring [1s]
Left Ring : -
Bracers : -
Gauntlets : uncursed gloves [+0, +0] [6s]
Boots : -
Missile weapon: -
Missiles : heap of 27 uncursed rocks (+0, 1d4) [135s]
Tool : blessed fiddle [15s]


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total weight: 778 stones Carrying capacity: 1540 stones

Missile weapons ('}')
uncursed short bow [20s]
uncursed sling [3s]
Missiles ('*')
heap of 7 blessed rocks [35s]
blessed rock [5s]
arrow [2s]
bundle of 15 uncursed arrows [30s]
arrow [2s]
Tools (']')
heap of 3 uncursed torches [30s]
blessed torch (4002 turns of fuel remaining) [10s]
uncursed box with flint and steel (30) [5s]
uncursed tinderbox (18) [3s]
uncursed rusty cooking set [100s]
// It's weird a ground water trap rust it.
// If it is destroyed I'll go for CoC arena.
blessed holy symbol [5s]
Potions ('!')
heap of 5 uncursed potions of water [20s]
uncursed potion of learning [4s]
potion of holy water [4s]
uncursed shimmering potion [2s]
orange potion [4s]
Scrolls ('?')
heap of 2 uncursed scrolls of identify [4s]
Food ('%')
cursed large ration [200s]
// Should put that ration in a stock for emergency an lower weigh.
heap of 2 uncursed cooked giant rat corpses [114s]
cooked rat corpse [29s]
uncursed cooked rat corpse [29s]
cooked giant rat corpse [57s]
cooked giant rat corpse [57s]
Valuables ('$')
463 gold pieces [4s]
- He has few weapon skills on throwing rocks and clubs because using best startup skills was a necessity to achieve puppy savior in time. But at this point I have to choose on what weapons he will focus more.

Melee weapon Lvl Hit Dam DV Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- --------------
Clubs & hammers 3 +2 +1 +0 basic 91

Missile weapon Lvl Hit Dam Ra Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- --------------
Slings 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7
Bows 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 10
Crossbows 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 10
Thrown rocks & clubs 4 +8 +6 +1 skilled 21

Shields Lvl DV Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- ------------- --------------
Shields 2 +4 basic 59


Damage caused with your melee weapons:
--------------------------------------
Right hand: +4 bonus to hit, 1d8-1 damage


Damage caused with your missile weapons:
----------------------------------------
Ammunition: 27, base range: 4, +8 bonus to hit, 1d4+7 damage
EDIT: I forgot an important point, I already did a stupid error during puppy cave and used my 2 praying for healing+poison removing. All of that just because I believed to be in coward mode but in fact was trying to tame a pit viper when I was bersek! That to say I must now apply more caution until I get some teleport abilities.

[Macros]

If you have generated SMC at lvl 1, then on your place I'd try to go through it to HMV(you already have both healing and herbalism, so you don't really need to complete carpenter/druid quest now). If not, then generate it now(5 lvl isn't so high, and low level monsters will be easier if you'll decide to go to HMV in future), and maybe try to complete Terinyo's quests(with Divine Wrath you should be able to take on Kranach and his band). After that I'd go to CoC. And about SMC, I'd try to go there after getting invisibility/teleportation spellbooks.

[Doalag]

Thanks for the advices. About SMC, yes that's a minor error I already did, to not generate SMC at level 1. In fact I did it on purpose it's a trade off with saving puppy with lower risk. That's why I didn't get there asap. I also didn't slowdown too much my level up during puppy cave because I wanted it safer. Yes now it's too late I'll wait to have what you said, or two pets level 15, my experience is that it's more than enough even without teleport or invisibility.

But yes once more I forget it(!) I should get there now to enter and exit.

Lol you are right with Divine wrath I could trigger on the Kranach quest and could ensure with pets kill Kranach before they do.

Ok it's obvious now, 3 big errors (I include the waste of 2 praying) in a short time of play. I can prepare the grave for Falag, I'm far to be ready to play this game without save backup! I wonder how many other big errors I did without to notice them! :o

About what to do next, I'll trigger on the Kranach quest and enter/exit SMC. After isn't clear, I don't want search Kranach because it's too random.

If I go CoC asap it will be only to go on arena level and cooked lizards plus some chance of some better pets during the progression in wilderness and CoC first levels. But I'll come back later for HMV and Lawenilothehl shops and thief skills, and HMV pet golem plus some chance to get in HMV dungeon some nice pets (Lightning lizard or Cave bear with some luck). But I never attempt this with so few equipment , or so low level or pet level. I don't want a disaster there. I should better do one of the two quests first and ends them or hurry to CoC if I see some food problems coming once more.

At this point I feel I still do too many errors and I like this char. So I'm looking to come back to my current game with save backup and try train and mimic better a play with no backup. Or perhaps better, to make a new char for a save without backup!! :D

[Grey]

You'd have trouble killing Keethrax, but it's a good idea to generate him early so he's a lower level and come back later when you have magic that can damage him (acid bolt or magic missile). The frost bolt book is obviously quite handy to get as a priest. Druid dungeon might have another altar for you too, and there's usually not much food problems there.

You might want to convert to neutral (by killing beggars or pets) and gain initiation into the thieves' guild so that you can learn detect traps - it's fairly vital in some parts of the game. Yergius is also handy for Climbing and Stealth training to reap the rewards of the Library (though you might never get that far with this char). If you're neutral then you can convert that black altar easily with a live sacrifice (just make sure it's not a neutral creature you sac). You can then build up piety and get some more holy water, and possibly even try for a precrown (though this is hard with neutrals).

The 3000 for snuffing Kranach is nice, but I find the quest tiresome to do and tend to avoid it. Up to you whether you want to go for that or not.

Hopping the stairs in the ID is a great way to get loads of books fast, and with only 3 spells you are in need of more spellbooks.

Best of luck - playing without save-scumming really adds an extra edge. Just be prepared for the pain and misery of inevitable defeat time and time again...

[Sradac]

since you have light save that spell. Dont let the casts get too low, around level 10-12 go to the gremlin cave, that place is surprisingly easy if you have lightsince its got a pretty big effective radius and it hurts the gremlins. It has a guaranteed artifact in it. Its not a very nice one, but it has its uses. If you're going for a chaos ending you can give it to the cloaked ratling in dwarftown. If not you can sacrifice it to your god for a good piety boost. but before you go make sure you pick up and train al ittle bit in detect traps and disarm traps. The gremlin cave is a cake walk once you get all the water traps disarmed and the gremlins cant multiply anymore. Those are the two most important skills to get you can get them from the master thief in Lawenelworth or whatever. Costs a bit of gold but they're so worth it, especially in places like the pyramid, dwarven graveyard, and later parts of the CoC including the elemental temples. Good luck, I rarely make backup saves so I know how frustrating it can get sometimes heh.

[Macros]

Imo, those mistakes was minor things. You could even try to go through SMC(it might be risky though, even with divine wrath; you can always enter SMC and check if staircase down is somewhere near, if not, just retreat and come back with proper spells, or with magic mapping scroll+ teleport control+ wand of teleportation/trap creation). Going through SMC has one big advantage - UD often contains useful stuff like vaults, shops and herbs(herbs+ herbalism+ altar= easy precrowning) - but you can always come back later here. I'd say that so far your character is doing fine, and I wouldn't be preparing grave for it at this stage:)

Just noticed(I missed it in my previous post) that you don't have detect traps skill. I'd change character to N, complete master thief quest, and buy skill from him - this skill really can be a life saver(or at least good equipment saver).

[Doalag]

Thanks all for the nice advise:

I agree with you all about Neutral and Yergius skills. To get neutral is another problem, it's not a first urgency but not something to delay a lot. At this point I don't feel ready to get in Lawenilothehl, I could get there some bad luck and a nasty hurt with some tough poisoning. So before getting those nice skills I try get and eventually buy more keys.

About going neutral, not right now but I'm not sure yet about the method I'll try. I got some very unpleasant things from altars and gods in past that I'll apply extreme cautious and certainly not a living saccing. If I could find a calm monster book that makes easy and fast a drop to neutral.

Grey :
- I never attempt Keethrax quest in fact, I don't know what good this could bring. I should check the guidebook of ADOM to know... Done, so if I get the chance to get the corpse, a PoCC not bad, plus a wand of cold and a spellbook of Frost Bolt. The trade off is a few stethoscopes, let say 10 blessed PoUH with few manipulation and bridge building. Ha well I plan use pets more than most do so in fact I'll get one more time the second option.
- I won't go for a final neutral, just a temporary to get Yergius skills because I'll use a lot pets and healing them push you fast to L+. I also won't attempt precrowning for this game.
- For Kranach quest I agree with you it is tedious but it's ok to trigger it on and let luck eventually allow you find him during small moving in the wilderness like when going to SMC or to ID.
- Yes ID is a high temptation but I tend get bad luck there.

Sradac:
- For the gremlin cave yes but well it will be quite later, not sure I get up to there.
- I agree with you Find trap and Disarm trap are the best skills to get from Yergius. Nut I also like to have Picklock and that can help to get Climbing training. For sneaking I already has it and it trains itself easily and for Pickpocket I feel it a little tedious.

Macros:
- Well minor errors, not sure, the result was minor but: Later I could regret deeply and die to not have anymore praying. For SMC I could have regret it a lot later in the game. For the spell, well not doing the Kranach quest is minor but not fully realize I have this spell at my disposal could make my char die despite I could have saved it with this spell.
- Yes I'll try a quick check when I'll enter in/out.
- Herbs for precrowning? You means it's a good saccing for any god? Precrowning is a little complicate to manage, depends of character level, piety level should high but not max, you should not have already get artifacts or not too many, and you need find the right saccing at the right time. Not sure I want invest this for this game but only a crowning much later. Also I'm not sure, if I do a precrowning can I temporary change of alignment?

[Doalag]

So next stuff to do, I trigger on the Kranak quest and went to SMC. Didn't met the band and at SMC, stairs down wasn't close, I looked a bit further and a bit further. Lol ok I have found to stairs down, not that close at all. Bad news is that I level up once so now it's more dangerous plus didn't found the blanket but found a blessed cooking set nice backup for my current rusty one.

At this point I should stop explore this and either retreat to exit to eventually find Kranak, do more and back later or perhaps more wise, go deeper to reach HMV and give up Kranak. :)

[Sradac]

usually at low levels if I get kinda stuck like not quite ready to take keethrax not ready for the pyramid or any temples I'll head to the arena and do all but the 20th fight there, you make some good exp and really good money for low levels while doing it. Just got to watch out for the cats that can be generated in it. That is if you're worried about kitty karma. If not kill away.

[Grey]

If you've reached level 6 then you can no longer find Kranach. Exploring down the UD might be good, just be sure to proceed with caution. You generally find good items and stuff in there, and Divine Wrath should keep you safe.

Regarding moving alignment down to N, I think your love of pets has blinded you to the easy course of action - tame an animal and then kill it. Or keep taming and attacking the same animal. Will get you down to N in no time at all. Also killing beggars in the bandit village is easy, and there's no risk for you going there since Divine Wrath will kill any hostile you encounter.

Precrowns are easy enough to achieve if you can control your alignment well (not at one of the extremes) and calculate the level requirements properly. 75 blessed stomafillia should be enough if you want to go harvesting. You're free to switch alignment afterwards (I've gotten one from each deity before).

[Macros]

About precrownings, as Grey said it's quite easy. Just be sure to max out herbalism before harvesting(it's not the requirement, but you'll find much more blessed herbs). Precrowning is a lotery though. You can get Bracers of War, or you can get black tome of Alsophocus. But precrowning with herbs is so easy that it's worth doing it. And by the way you can always find other useful herbs, like morgia root, moss of maerillion or speensweed.

[Doalag]

Sradac:
Good idea, but I want to preserve cat option, with pets it's easy but the arena can be a trap. I'll wait have some tool against that before to proceed in the arena, like potion of exchange, perhaps teleport, or even summon monster by taming the can and makes it attack a summoned monster.

Grey:
Kranach can't be find anymore at level 6? Apart with troll I believed 6 was still ok but the limit.

About Neutral I did it. I finally escaped SMC after to have explore the whole level but a tension room (and didn't found the blanket) after that I went to Lawenilothehl, there attacked any bandits or stuff like that I could see, take care to stay close to border. Most was neutral so I get LN, risk was highly lower by attacking them first and the giant ant queen was ok to control the thing. I only used one frost belt against an assassin to be safe. I spare the single beggar found here, I like have one to get booze potions for Yggaz. And she gave me a nice hint I never quote in the guidebook : "They say that berzio potions are usefull for taming monsters.". I wonder what I can tame with that! Well I had that in mind before read this hint but never attempt it yet. I have another char (with save back) with some potions like that I'll do some testing.

Then I proceed to VD and at VD6 found a calm monster book, one calm of a monster and hurt makes me N+. Now I proceed back to Lawenilothehl to get the pickpocket skill. I know I could hurt a pet but don't like the idea!!! Use calm spell is much faster but when you don't know the spell, ha well now I know it. Also my experience with pet makes me suspect that if you hit them and tame again during some time the chance they left you will be a bit higher. Well I could tame any animal met to do that. :D

I'll achieve VD quest after. I got a little series of book and a gray and a white altar in VD. I also saw in Lawenilothehl shop a blanket, not sure if it is fire or water proof. I was planning to search a little Kranach I'll need check if level 6 is ok or not for Kranach plus I'll put a strict time limit for the search. Everything is a lot too easy, I'm worry of the next nasty blow the game prepare for my char!!!

Macros and Grey :
Thanks for the precrowning hints, I'll perhaps attempt one in this game after all.

[Doalag]

Ha yes the guidebook mentions that level 5 is the max possible for Kranach quest. Ha well, I lost the control in SMC because I wanted to play it safe and not let pets do all the job. In fact I killed many stuff in one shot. I don't regret too much, lost of time plus possible food problems can be a hassle with Kranach quest. I search a little before enter in SMC so I took my chance it just didn't work this time.

[Doalag]

Cough cough, dead! I can't imagine to play more bad. I was in VD with a complex play with pets on DV6 to avoid they start fight with the carpenter and go from 7 to 6 to eventually get help from the giant ant queen. In VD7 I got a first "heard wind", dam I was in a long corridor but thanks I found a dog and tame it to throw it on the Vortex. Going back, Ice Vortex in a room but a little far I decided throw one or two rocks but the dog left the corridor, Vortex going to me, run to the corridor and that dam dog wasn't fast enough and let the Vortex go between it and me! Run in the corridor, running a little faster but closed by a ghoul. Tried Hit it very small injury, one more rock on the Vortex and a final blow but nope it explodes... No this char didn't died at this point but it should have.

Back in VD6 some rest and back to VD to explore more and some more switch between 6 and 7 when once I bring near the GAQ another monster to kill and the GAQ hits me! She had left. Thanks I could move arround to go in a corridor to be attacked by only one monster. I tamed quickly again the GAQ and she killed the monster I bring back her. Nope didn't this char didn't get killed by his pets. :D

Back to 7 and again "heard wind" but at a higher frequency, probably 2 Vortex. A fire lizard, some calm down and quick tame, I continue explore with it ready against a Vortex. A lesser daemon... back to VD6 and bring the giant ant queen to kill it. I continue with the fire lizard, the GAQ is back to 6. After a long corridor, a giant spider and a large orc trapped in web. Cool, easy kill the orc and one more pet to tame for Vortex. Done but more monsters come... killed... a minautor, tougher but killed but char also somehow injured... a dark elf warrior, some rocks thrown only slight damages. He is on me, get hits once and poisoned, not a problem I try hit one more time and get hit again, one more time poisoned and quite hurt. A Baptism of Fire and the dark elf flee... stupidly too late. Ok no panick, try a praying, my new god don't care, no suprise. Dip the water potions in the blessed get more blessed, dip one identify scroll, read it and check all potions and scrolls and stuff identified...No potion to fight poison or heal... Poison and more and dead.

All of that because I forgot the nice offensive spells I had. So stupid, since the spider room I was harass and clearly felt it wasn't good, just forget use spells until it was too late.

Ha well, just one thing was very special about this character he was strangely fast to tame, previous priest was mush more slow even with quite higher CH. No real new lesson here, but perhaps I'll won't forget it this time, use those attack spells damit! :D

[Grey]

I think your reliance on pets is crippling you somewhat. You should get used to how well your character caqn do on his own. Pets also steal xp and leave you underpowered when dealing with hard enemies. VD6 and 7 are actually quite dangerous - don't spend too much time there until you feel ready.

As for poison, what's generally best to do is keep applying First Aid every time you get the message "you feel the poison coursing through your veins". It'll restore a little bit of hp and can help you survive the poison. Another thing to do when in the VD is go see Jharod - he'll cure you of poison or sickness.

[Doalag]

You are right about not knowing evaluating and be used to manage very well the situation without pet, but well I prefer scumming than give up on them! But underpowered, I don't think so, I just played it stupidly. For the Vortex I had Darkness and when Vortex close Batism Of Fire, not to mention that I tamed a pet only for it but didn't use it for that. For Darkness it's true that I'm used to not use it with pets. :D

For the dark elf, well ok I underestimate him but after two or three shot that do low damages or don't hit, I should have try spells. Or at least after being hit once and poisoned then use spells.

How dam I could have forget Jharod and First Aid!! I was probably too far and hurt but that was certainly the last chance to try after identifying inventory.

[Macros]

You should try to get poison resistance as soon as possible(from spiders/tarantulas/cave fishers or giant centipide's corpse). Also dark elven warriors are faily tough opponent for low level PC. Unless you have really good weapon and decent DV/PV you should avoid them(same goes for tarantulas - they're much stronger that giant/large spiders).

[Doalag]

Yes poison resistance but at this point of the game I didn't get this opportunity. I quoted that surviving a poisoning also gives resistance like eating some corpse. After that, for the whole beginning of the game poison is just a joke. Well eventually a hive and multiple bees can be dangerous anyway.

In my current game, I survived with my GAQ from a pit viper nest triggered by the GAQ. I have been hit 2 times didn't have such a high hits nor First Aid but had Cure Light Wound spells. But I didn't need use any spell for me but use them plus a PoUH for the GAQ that was probably hit more than 3 times and almost died. First aid and regeneration has been enough for the char, similar character than Falag but weaker overall and was level 3 not 6. Perhaps Tarantula poison and Dark elven warrior has tougher poison, I know I quoted this for Tarantula but not for DEW, not sure for pit vipers.

Perhaps the poison power isn't only generated from the opponent type. At least after to have surviving the pit vipers, I eat one spider corpse and it does almost nothing and later in VD7 I got a nest of snakes and tarantula generated by DE princess or priest (don't remember) get hit a few time but poison did nothing.

Well I don't remember that well for Falag, it's perhaps more the minautor before the DEW that put my hits quite low, plus the blows of the DEW only few poison has been enough. Ha well after all I can see Falag a good lesson about poisoning! :D

[Doalag]

With another similar character I applied the animal thing to become Neutral. I didn't need to tame them but could only bring them to "more friendly" with music taming. In fact I also didn't need really hurt them. By hitting them bare hand it was enough.

I used only two animals, to avoid search them, and even killed none. The APS could rejoice!;)