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Sradac
04-12-2008, 11:11 PM
OK we have lots of new people here arguing about whats possible in jade and oh TB wont put that in he dosent have time blah blah blah, apparently these people never visited the OLD adom central. Here are some ancient scriptures handed down from The Creator himself, I present them to you digging them from under much debrie and dust that has settle on it from this cyber world we are in.


"What plans do you have for JADE? "

JADE will basically have everything ADOM has and a lot more. Plans include:

-A complete world with continents, weather patterns, settlements, dungeons and strange places, either randomly generated at the start of each game or chosen from a number of preselected worlds.
-A quest generator for random quests. No two games ever will be the same.
-Dungeon and world size only limited by the boundaries of Java-technology and your hardware.
-No classes, but a detailed skill system, together with a guild system providing special benefits for guild membership.
-All the races from ADOM and a few more (mist elves, ratlings, hill dwarves).
-Complete freedom in what you want to do (e.g. explore dungeons, work as a caravan guardian, build your own castle, conquer cities, lead a life as a simple farmer, become a shopkeeper or whatever).
-Hidden plots. (Has Chaos been truly defeated in ADOM or is something lurking behind the scenes and waiting?)
-Monster inventories.
-The ability to transform into another being.
-A detailed system for morale values (on an Order...Balance...Chaos scale) and ethics (on a Good...Uncaring...Evil scale).
-Platform independence due to Java-based technology.
-Compressed save files. "

Some of these things SEEM to have changed from the JADE video, some say the skill system was scrapped and JADE is class based again. How do you know that wasnt set up for TB's ease of use for testing purposes, so he dosent have to hand pick all skills and abilities every time to test he has some basic classes put him just for his personal use.

Sradac
04-12-2008, 11:12 PM
Another ancient text uncovered! THis one regards experience levels!!


Experience levels and professions
JADE will see a radical departure from the ADOM philosophy of experience levels and professions. In ADOM experience levels are very important because they allow you to increase skills, hit points, gain special powers and more. Professions also are pretty defining in giving you your core abilities and determining the best approach on solving the game according to your choice.

This will be very different in JADE. Here you won't be constrained to but one profession but you rather will be allowed to learn more professions as time goes by. Professions will guide how much experience you have to "pay" to advance a skill and will grant you certain in-game benefits (access to guild halls, access to specialized guild equipment and more). This effectively means that you will be able to become a guild member in as many guilds as you like - as long as you can convince the respective guild council that you might be a worthy guild member... which actually might become pretty difficult when facing the council of the paladins guild after having proven oneself a powerful assassin or a nasty necromancer!

Experience levels also will play just a minor role. They will give you a very minor hitpoint bonus (+1 hitpoint per experience level) and only serve as a general guideline for your accomplishments... it has no other effects. You profession powers will be guided by your reputation in your guild and your experience score in the respective profession.
General experience levels will be determined according to the following chart:
Experience score Experience level
0 1
100 2
300 3
600 4
1000 5
1500 6
2100 7
2800 8
3600 9
4500 10
5500 11
6600 12
7800 13
9100 14
10500 15
12000 16
13600 17
15300 18
17100 19
20000 20
... ...


Naturally this has some additional consequences:
In contrast to ADOM their will be no (real) experience level limit.
Monsters will yield a lot less experience than they do in ADOM.

An alternative I had considered to this is the following approach: use the table above to determine your rank within your guild(s) and calculate the overall experience level as the average of your guild ranks. I decided against this, because picking up a new profession at a later point will decrease your overall experience, which doesn't seem reasonable.

Yet another approach might be to only count experience points for your professions and use the total of those points to determine your overall experience level. I like this one very well, because it removes the need to have some abstract experience point amount, just for the sake of being able to calculate some abstract experience level.

The final (and most simple) approach might be to simply use the maximum guild rank as your overall experience level. This has one disadvantage: let's assume that guild rank is determined by looking at something I'll call reputation score for now. It is influenced by your deeds and increases if you behave appropriately to your profession (a healer tending the sick, a thief picking pockets, an assassin killing targets, a merchant reaping trade rewards, etc.). It decreases if you behave in an improper way (a paladin stealing things, a druid killing peaceful animals, a wizard engaging in melee constantly, etc.). This would pose some interesting challenges to be successful in several varying professions, something I find very realistic and very intricate. Since this possibility is not yet ruled out, the final approach mentioned in this paragraph won't be used for now, despite it's simplicity. These changes will permit a more variable, realistic and exciting approach to things, allowing you to play a very high number of very different characters.

Sradac
04-12-2008, 11:13 PM
For much information that has been forgotten by many about JADE please refer to:

http://www.adom.de/jade/index.php3

Grey
04-13-2008, 09:42 AM
TB has also said recently it will likely be at least 4 years before JADE is on the level of completeness that ADOM is currently at. He may change his mind about many of the features announced before, or may introduce many more. I imagine he'll be starting with a basic but open system, gradually building up complexity as he goes on (smarteset way to do things really).

Nezur
04-13-2008, 09:58 AM
Have you seen this (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/64007-13-jade-development)?

EDIT: As the Creator said things are subject to change. Hmm, what about collecting JADE-related links into this thread?

reich
04-13-2008, 04:42 PM
I still hope for a classless open-ended system, like in Fallout.

The point is that the traditional player classes taken from d&d are suited for a team of adventurers, when they compliment each other. The players must co-operate to create an efficient fighting unit.

Roguelikes seem to have inherited this system just by tradition and it is quite unsuitable to PC-against-the-world model. Something less restrictive and more universal is needed! The notion of having a Healer who basically only heals himself is a little 'out there'!

Grey
04-13-2008, 05:55 PM
Personally I prefer classes. It allows for different challenges and very different palystyles, with each character playing very differently. I like all the class powers ADOM has that separate them out more - a generic system would be quite boring in comparison. TB has stated he's having guilds in the game, and with what's been stated in Nezur's link I guess multi-classing will be built in like that (so I guess you'd choose a starting class and you can learn others as you find guilds). Not my preference (Omega has something similar and I didn't like it too much) but if it's done well it might be good.

F50
04-13-2008, 09:23 PM
I would think that you start out non-classed, but you pick up classes by visiting guilds and such. You can gain class powers from being a higher-ranked member of the guild, but if you are a high enough member of one guild, you aren't going to be skilled enough to go far in other guilds.

Of course, this is all speculation/suggestion.

Manu
04-14-2008, 07:00 PM
Thomas has exceeded my expectations with Adom in how creative of a working system he has been able to come up with - I don't care how it's all done as much as I'm excited about who is doing it all.

* random fan gushing.

Sradac
04-16-2008, 12:09 AM
i agree. In alot of other roguelikes ive played either the classes were not very different at all or so different that there were severe balance issues. *bands come to mind, sorceres and fighterers were very overpowered where other classes like rogues archers and monks werent played much because they were so weak in them. Not weak in an ADOM merchant class sense but weak in a pathetic and under-developed way.

Chaine
04-18-2008, 10:21 PM
I love the classless-ness. I think you should be able to simply choose a few things you did in your childhood, get some basic skills depending on what you chost, then be free to do what you want. There should be some little label saying the class you're closest to though, or something, else it would be kind of hard asking for hints. "Hey, I'm a grey elf... good at this and that, but not those skills, and I'm good at this aswell".

Nezur
05-25-2008, 07:05 PM
I would prefer a system which would allow the PC to learn anything at least once certain criteria are met (stats, quests, etc.). You could simply choose a Fighter, Wizard or whatever training at character creation and after that you'd be free to do anything. In a game like this which features a huge world I wouldn't want to be stuck with some artificial class limits.

Epythic
05-25-2008, 10:13 PM
I think classes should not be more than in "real life": you train some stats and skills, get some talents, thats it.

If you are a fighter and want to become a wizard, just train magic. May take some time, but possible.

Nezur
05-25-2008, 10:30 PM
Yep. That's what I was driving at.

Grey
05-25-2008, 11:55 PM
It can be boring if it's too generic - let's not forget that one of the joys of ADOM is how different the classes can feel. There's too many games out there that let you do everything at once far too easily. In JADE you should be rewarded well for specialisation, and spreading yourself too thin will make it hard for you to get good in each area. I don't want every character feeling exactly the same (ADOM even has a bit too much of this towards the end game, though the class powers do help with class individuality).

smigbob
05-26-2008, 07:41 AM
Personally, I have two worries about the future:

1) It will become too huge to manage. I don't want a massive, completely randomly generated game like Dwarven Fortress; I prefer the current type of wilderness situation in ADOM. A bit bigger wouldn't be bad, mind you, but I still want it to be in the realm of a story and be able to be spoiled. ;-P

2) What happens when you die? PLEASE, OH PLEASE OH PLEASE, allow save games! As big as this is, with the hundreds of hours of gameplay in one savefile you are "promising", don't ruin our lives when a freak occurrence happens! In other words, don't be a roguelike. ;-P

Nezur
05-26-2008, 05:09 PM
2) What happens when you die? PLEASE, OH PLEASE OH PLEASE, allow save games! As big as this is, with the hundreds of hours of gameplay in one savefile you are "promising", don't ruin our lives when a freak occurrence happens! In other words, don't be a roguelike. ;-P

I'm sure JADE will feature permadeath. The game won't be as hard as ADoM anyhow according to Thomas.

Epythic
05-26-2008, 05:57 PM
2) What happens when you die? PLEASE, OH PLEASE OH PLEASE, allow save games! As big as this is, with the hundreds of hours of gameplay in one savefile you are "promising", don't ruin our lives when a freak occurrence happens! In other words, don't be a roguelike. ;-P

(please-dont-take-this-seriously> shut up!

the trick is not to let your char get into too dangerous situations.

i think removing 99% of random-+-not-your-fault-+-you-cant-do-anything-against-it--insta-deaths is enough.

Nezur
05-28-2008, 06:11 PM
It can be boring if it's too generic - let's not forget that one of the joys of ADOM is how different the classes can feel. There's too many games out there that let you do everything at once far too easily.

Well I often want to try out another class in the middle of a game in ADOM because they tend to last so long. Obviously games in JADE will last at least the same amount of time. I think there are ways to prevent the character from quickly mastering everything.

smigbob
05-29-2008, 12:58 AM
(please-dont-take-this-seriously> shut up!

the trick is not to let your char get into too dangerous situations.

i think removing 99% of random-+-not-your-fault-+-you-cant-do-anything-against-it--insta-deaths is enough.

Don't worry, I didn't. ;-P

Well, if we have permadeaths, then at least make a savegame option, that removes say 1/3 of your score each time you die? Just an idea...

vogonpoet
05-29-2008, 11:17 AM
Meh, death is death.

Might as well have a IDKFA cheat code built into game if you don't have permadeath.

/a WoW with 65535 charges perhaps???

Ars
05-29-2008, 09:31 PM
Don't worry, I didn't. ;-P

Well, if we have permadeaths, then at least make a savegame option, that removes say 1/3 of your score each time you die? Just an idea...

You can still save-scum if you like, getting a saving option into the game implies that that's the correct way to play it, which it is not.

smigbob
05-29-2008, 10:34 PM
Yeah, I guess you guys are right, it should stay a roguelike. But will save-scumming even be possible with JADE? Since I have no idea how Java works, might it be a wee bit different?

P.S.: I have never save-scummed with ADOM. Only used Cheat Engine. Which still can't save you from a moloch and black unicorn ganging up on you in DH:2. :-P

Laukku
07-08-2008, 07:26 PM
Not directly related to JADE though, but here (http://www.adom.de/adom/myth.php3) is another page written by TB that may be interesting, and is (propably) not widely known.

Xanthine
07-11-2008, 07:47 AM
/a WoW with 65535 charges perhaps???

Why stop at 2^16-1? MAX_INT, gogogo.

pblack
08-06-2008, 04:16 AM
This is going to be a LONG post on skills and classes....


I would look at the "totally class-free" approach very carefully, because there are other games out there that have similar systems and I personally think they become eventually boring. The best example I can give is the Elder Scrolls series.... morrowind espacially (in oblivion they minimized this effect, but it's still very much present). One thing that happens with the game is that if you want...you can become the strongest mage, with the strongest combat skills and strongest thieving skills all at the same time! If it's not implemented with caution that could happen to JADE, in one of those quotes from TB he says that you could become a necromancer/assassin/paladin if you wanted. The problem is that if JADE won?t have a level limit, you could become indefinitely strong in every especialization...wich would destroy the idea of the hero that is "good at somethings and bad at others".

I still think that the game should allow for a free interpretation of what you would want to become....like being a strong beserk fighter with good spellcasting abilities.... but i would feel very sad to get to the end of my 5th JADE game and realize that my character is basically the same as it were the other 4 times. The problem with the "no limits" approach is that everyone would try to be proficient in everything. The multiclassing in AD&D is level capped and that's why it works. You can become the best mage there ever was... but you won't accomplish it if you try to be the best rogue as well.

I'm not saying JADE should use level capping, but a skill based system should be carefully implemented. I personally like the different challenges of playing with different classes with different limitations but a no-class system can be equally succesful and fulfilling, it just has to be thought-through.

Now to sugestions in that matter...

I've came up with a system to put all this to practice, but it's just a sugestion, the point is to not let the game become boring over time.

First, since the game is going to be based mainly on skills I would expect to have a lot more skills available, with the current number of skills in ADoM this system i'm proposing becomes useless.

Then, with that obsevation made, skills should be classified under groups like Melee, Magic, Stealth/Agility, general/misc, etc (wathever is applicable to the game). And then lets pick a PC with a broad skill repertoire.

PC has the following skills:

Two weapon combat - 50
"Parry" [fictional combat skill] - 50
Necromancy - 30
Stealth - 30
Pick locks - 60
Swimming - 70

Althou this PC has skills from all the different strings, the sum of all the points he has in his combat skills is greater than the sum of any other skill string (Two W. Combat + Parry = 100 pts against 90 pts for Stealth + pick locks (Agility), 30 for necromancy (magic) or 70 in swimming (general). This PC is now specialized in combat. This does not bring any special consequences other than the fact that now he has a bonus in every combat skill increase he receives and a penalty for every magic skill increase. The Stealth skills increases would remain unaffected because they are within a 10 pts distance from the actual "favourite skills". The type of bonus or penalty could be a simple +1, +2, -1, -2, etc added to the dice rolled for skill value increase (or some other method... whatever works for the game engine).

Should this PC gain another 10 points in his "agility" skills and make it 100 pts like the combat skills, both skill increases would have no bonuses or penalties and if his necromancy still is under 90 pts, it continues with the penalties it had before.

Now, with a system like this, a PC could very quickly reach maximum proficiency in some skills making the early-mid game somewhat unbalanced, so the bonuses should be small but significant, but the penalties shouldn't! For this PC it should be hard to increase magic skill points....and the further he specializes in combat or agility (and the gap between those skill points and the magic skill points grows) the harder it should be. Hard enough so that with a 200 or 300 pts gap between the greater and lesser sum it should be a small challenge for the PC to be able to gain any skill points whatsoever in that area.

Another feature of this system would be small penalties for the skill increases of those that have three or more skill groups sums within a 10 pts range, for example, a char with 107 combat 97 magic and 105 agility. This PC has almost identical knowledge of this skill areas (remember that there doesn't have to be just 3 skill groups + the general...there can be as many as there are classes in adom) and since he is almost equally proficient in more than 2 skill areas he is going to get a small penalty for every skill area above 2 within the 10 pts range. For example: this char mentioned above would have a minor -1 penalty in all his increases for those skill areas...if there were another skill area in the range..making it 4 skill areas that he is mostly proficient in, the penalty would be -2...and so on. Meaning that a character that tries to be very proficient in too many areas would have a very hard time being really good at any of them, BUT this should have its perks too. One that come to mind is that the penalties for those trying to specialize in up to 3 or 4 skill areas are less severe than the penalties faced by a highly specialized combat PC trying to build up his rookie magic skills (a gap of 200 or 300 as metioned above). This would bring the player to a decision in the beginning of every game. Do I want a good character earlier or do I want a very versatile character towards the end-game? Note however that trying to specialize in more than 4 or so areas (I would prefer 3, but I'm trying to be as broad as possible here) shouldn't be practical for most players in the sense that the penalties would really become overwhelming (just maybe not for those that play the same character for years).

Now there's the other side. While being the jack of all trades brings some perks along (like being a barbarian in pure beserk mode with mental shield activated!) there should be incentive for the ones that want to play a more traditional character. The main feature to enchance those players experience that I can think of is to make it possible for them to have skills above the maximum 100, but from 101 pts on the skill would behave differently, it would be like the PC doesn't have anything else to LEARN about that task but he starts mastering it and starts developing his own methods around that ability...he becomes a "creator" other than a "student" of that art. And this means that he wouldn't get any more points of DV for dodge or to-hit/to-damage bonuses from two w. combat but he would get a special power related to that skill. Like a 100% certain dodge for X turns where X increases with the skill points above 100, or a 100% concealment for x turns for master stealth skill that allow for perfect concealment even if the monster had already seen you. And those kind of things... like perfect pick pocketing (always gets something, or as the thief class power... better stuff). The ability to build skills above 100 pts should only come to those that have a 100-200 even 300 pts gap between their favourite skills and their second ones. So you can actually have 100 stealth while being a pure barbarian, you just have to have 2 or 3 combat skills maxed out in order to have the necessary skill points "gap" (and your special ability to enhance your skills to over 100 pts would only be possible in your combat skills of course, even if you have other skills maxed out).
Also, once you cross the 100 pts line for any skill in a determined skill group you can't cross it in any other skill of any other skill group = you just get special powers in the skills of your favourite skill area.

Now to what i think is almost the last part. the "general" skills. Those are skills of general use like haggling, gardening, swimming, listening, survival, etc. Those skills are not subject to any penalties or bonuses no matter what is the rank of the other skills, but you can master them to over 100 pts like any other skill group. And the thing about those skills is that some of their special over-100pts powers could enable the PCs, among other things, to acess places otherwise impossible to get to (obviously with great treasure... and danger!) The payoff to specializing in general skills would be that once you master (eq. getting it to over 100 pts) all of them, you are able to master up to 5 other skills from any of the other groups! Note that the penalties to the other skills still stand...so it could be fairly difficult to rise a skill in a poorly developed skill group (say magic in the 50's while your "general" skills rank in the 600's) but it should be extremely attractive for anyone willing to make the arduous journey. While making the game considerably longer in order to achieve this result, the payoff is close to the all-powerful character that an unthought skill-based system would make easily possible.

pblack
08-06-2008, 04:17 AM
Well, that's basically it. It's long and confusing, I know. But for those that had the patience to read and try to comprehend it, I would like your inputs. But again, all this is just a random sugestion, because my main concern is that the skill based system could allow for over-the-top super characters and just those willing to police themselves not to pump the PC with every skill in the book could get the same joy as in adom.
Someone said that if a save function would to be implemented it would imply that that's the correct way to play the game, and it isnt, and I agree. If a completely free skill system is implemented it would bring the idea that you should be as proficient as you can in every skill you can. And I don't think that's the idea. I proposed a system that still allows for multi-skilled characters but with lots of requirements to do so without being too arbitrary (at least i think =P) but any other ideas, simpler ones perhabs ;), are always welcome.

PS: maybe this should be posted in the classes topic, but this discussioon was here so I thought it would fit better.

pblack
08-06-2008, 04:38 AM
Afterthoughts:

- Maybe the special over-100pts could be relative to the skill GROUP and not the skill itself, rendering useless the idea of more than 100 pts in a single skill. Example: an "arcane magic" specialized pc reaches 100 pts in his SUM of "arcane magic" skills, therefore, he gets a special power (a lowly one to start...) and it would go on like this every 100 pts in the skill group. This kinda simplifies the whole system, and perhabs it makes it possible for a char to have various special powers from all skill groups, but it would require a cap of a maximum number of skill powers since otherwise it would pratically be equal to the free-skill system I'm trying to prevent. It's also beneficial in the sense that it would be very easy to realize that to become the BEST in anything, you have to forget about being good at anything else. But maybe it's too severe in that aspect to be applicable.