Trollish healers

[Starhawk]

I always have heard the comment on ADOM that "playing trollish healers is almost like cheating."

I never believed it, but I figured I would try for a different kind of character (been trying to play wizards for the past couple of weeks). After a couple days of quick deaths and bad luck, I finally "broke" a character loose from the early game.

Oh. My. Goodness.

A level 13 trollish healer... with 100 Healing skill (of course)... a ring of regeneration...a blessed crown of regeneration.... and who ate his way through a very large tension room of trolls.... heals 2 to 5 points PER MOVE. Insane. And I know it only gets better.

Now if only my spellcasting was worth a darn; I'd feel more confident about winning the game. :)

[jewbnuts]

hey sir, u seem to be one of the only people online right now, can i ask u how to fix sickness please i know theres probably another topic that tells me, but i havent looked yet, and i figured it might be quicker to ask u, ill look while i wait for your reply, thank you =D

[Silfir]

Trollish healers *are* exceptionally powerful. But very annoying if you need experience levels to advance.

As for you, jewbnuts, if haven't yet received one of the quests from Rynt or Guth'Alak, talk to Rynt, go to the village dungeon and try to get to VD:4 as soon as possible. Jharod is your best bet.

[Orbic]

jewbnuts, I was told that some herbs that grow in dungeons can cure sickness as well. Or cause it? worth a try :)

[Grey]

A potion of healing also has a good chance to remove sickness (a blessed one is guaranteed to cure you).

Anyway, back to topic. Troll healers are indeed very nice for having great offense at the start and a fairly miraculous healing rate later on. However, as has been said trolls have their difficulties. I'd personally recommend drakeling healers - they have almost exactly the same healing rate as trolls (one uncursed potion of troll blood and they're the same) but with more balanced stats allowing them better access to spells. Much faster levelling of course, and the acid spit lets you get through the early game without too much trouble. Alertness is a handy skill to have too. And god damn, in the Tower they're just insanely powerful.

Gnomes are a decent option too for more emphasis on spell-casting. They're nowhere near as strong or tough though, so surviving early game is more troublesome (though I find any gnome can get to level 10 safely just by sticking to the first couple of levels of VD or DD - after that you're normally safe).

[Elone]

You dont have to be a trollish healer, just any healer will be good. Trolls need too much food and too much experience. My current character is a Grey Elf Healer, and she has finished normal ending. I dont even wear crown of regen, necklace of healing, or rings of regen! If I wore that, playing would stop being fun. After being brought down to nothingness, I walk from one side of the level to the other, and my healt is pretty much all restored. Oh, I will mention that healers are very good at learning from books, meaning that they dont get penalties to reading (like books exploding, or you fail to read a book). But it could be the race that influences it. I still claim that playing a troll is only worth for very start of the game, and you will regret it very, very soon after that (and you did - you cant spellcast, you cant gain levels, and food consumption is still double compared to anyone else).

[gut]

> I still claim that playing a troll is only worth for very start of the game,

But how good they are! I think that troll healers are the
best PC to use, for a new player to get to see more of
the game. After you get a bit of experience with things,
other race/class combos will serve better.

Having said that, trolls can still be enormously powerful.
The ID is the best friend of the mid-game troll. In there
you will find all the exp. points you could ask for. It just
takes a bit of patience to get them. Sometimes deep
'threat rooms' can be filled with monsters like titans,
dragons, moloch, and so on. That really speeds things
up.

[Sradac]

super easy cheat mode? troll healer born under the sign of The Candle. zOMG you heal fast!!!!!!!! lol

[Sradac]

You dont have to be a trollish healer, just any healer will be good. Trolls need too much food and too much experience. My current character is a Grey Elf Healer, and she has finished normal ending. I dont even wear crown of regen, necklace of healing, or rings of regen! If I wore that, playing would stop being fun. After being brought down to nothingness, I walk from one side of the level to the other, and my healt is pretty much all restored. Oh, I will mention that healers are very good at learning from books, meaning that they dont get penalties to reading (like books exploding, or you fail to read a book). But it could be the race that influences it. I still claim that playing a troll is only worth for very start of the game, and you will regret it very, very soon after that (and you did - you cant spellcast, you cant gain levels, and food consumption is still double compared to anyone else).


I have to disagree, I cant remember where but I found a save game and a adom video of someone playing a troll wizard late in the game, he was insanely powerful much more so than any wizard or troll i have ever had. just got to know how to plan out your character.

[Silfir]

Then he was that powerful despite, not because of being a troll.

[Starhawk]

super easy cheat mode? troll healer born under the sign of The Candle. zOMG you heal fast!!!!!!!! lol

That's me... plus the +20% heal rate talent... plus blessed potions of troll blood... plus troll corpses... plus the "heal at an accelerated rate" corruption.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I've gotten this guy through the Water Temple and I need to take on the ToEF next. Fortunately, I've got Wyrmlance for the ACW, and 10x SoCR for the beating I'm sure to take (which will be left outside, of course).

I just got crowned N= and got the WORST!! CROWNING!! GIFT!! EVER!! The named gauntlets of peace. Ugh.

The XP requirements are getting a little fierce, but I figure that will give me the opportunity to hit the ID and maybe get some spellbooks (i've only found Bless, Lightning Bolt, Revelation, and Teleportation)... as well as perhaps doing some of the side quests (Blup's mom, the gangster boss, head of the thieves' guild, etc). I definitely want frost bolt so I can more easily get the Ring of the High Kings.

I also stopped by DH2 on the way up to the ToEF and got myself a very nice greater earth elemental as a familiar... har har har....

[Silfir]

That's me... plus the +20% heal rate talent... plus blessed potions of troll blood... plus troll corpses... plus the "heal at an accelerated rate" corruption.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I've gotten this guy through the Water Temple and I need to take on the ToEF next. Fortunately, I've got Wyrmlance for the ACW, and 10x SoCR for the beating I'm sure to take (which will be left outside, of course).

I just got crowned N= and got the WORST!! CROWNING!! GIFT!! EVER!! The named gauntlets of peace. Ugh.

The XP requirements are getting a little fierce, but I figure that will give me the opportunity to hit the ID and maybe get some spellbooks (i've only found Bless, Lightning Bolt, Revelation, and Teleportation)... as well as perhaps doing some of the side quests (Blup's mom, the gangster boss, head of the thieves' guild, etc). I definitely want frost bolt so I can more easily get the Ring of the High Kings.

I also stopped by DH2 on the way up to the ToEF and got myself a very nice greater earth elemental as a familiar... har har har....

Hoo boy, looking good. Don't grow too confident, though, because that is killer #1 if nothing else can kill you. I'd get the Ring of the High Kings before I enter the Tower, though. A wand of cold will do, you don't need Frost Bolt, and I'd really like to have Frost Bolt before I enter the tower.

And be careful with your greater earth elemental buddy. Sooner or later, you will turn hostile on you.

[Grey]

The ID is the best friend of the mid-game troll. In there
you will find all the exp. points you could ask for. It just
takes a bit of patience to get them. Sometimes deep
'threat rooms' can be filled with monsters like titans,
dragons, moloch, and so on. That really speeds things
up.

It's still not worth it - it's really really not worth it. It takes a looong time, even with the Slow Monster spell, and corruption can be a bitch too. The thing about trolls though is that they're usually decent enough to be able to complete the game in their level 30s. The only problem with getting high levels is if you want to go for ultra (need to get to level 45).

[Elone]

Listen to Grey - he finished a challenge game with a Troll, which included getting the troll to level 50.

Anyway.

You will eventually regret having that corruption. Period.

Troll blood is surprisingly common in ADOM (You run into 5-20 per a regular game, x8 regen per a blessed potion, and you can get your regen to max. Troll OR no troll.)

What I'm saying is, you'll get enough items in your game to boost your regen as much as you need it. Sradac said, "You have to plan your character out", well, choosing a troll, just because of their initial regen, seems quite short-sighted to me... Especially because any race healer will get more than enough regen in the early-mid game by just getting level 12. And regen items are virtually guaranteed too.

One of greatest newbie problems is starvation. Trolls, mind you, are the wrong way to go. Sure, they can carry a tiny bit more rations from Munxip, but what happens when they eventually run out of food, and are not in Munxip's range anymore? Their doubled food requirement will annoy you a plenty the deeper you are in the game.

Bah, Trolls? Good spellcasters? Only if they cast from spellbooks (OR if they are wizards, but we are talking about healers here, and their regen advantages).

They are strong and tough? Well, Big Room counts as an early game, right? I had a troll generated with 18St and 18To. Both of those can be reached, and surpassed, by the herbs; and carrying stuff around; and eating giant's dead bodies, which are plentiful.

No, trolls are not for newbies. Trolls are for someone who knows what he's doing. Trolls do not have enough advantages to counter all their disadvantages and make them worth playing for a beginner/novice.

[Silfir]

Trolls are for absolutely brutal newbies, who don't care about chances to complete the game and just don't want to die as quickly. Their high strength and toughness makes for an uncomplicated playing style. Walk into enemies to kill them. Have high regeneration to recover from damage. That's it.

But I agree. High elven archers, gray elven wizards or orcish barbarians are much better choices once you've grown more accustomed to the game and its intricacies and want a real shot at winning. The gray elven wizard is the best choice if you want realistic chances on a first win, because once you've gotten them through the early stage - which you should have learnt a bit about in your first hundred deaths - and found some spells for them, you are ridiculously powerful enough to deal with the later stages even though you haven't seen them before.

[Grey]

Trolls actually can't get the max regen that other races can - the lowest they can get to is 6, whilst others can get to 5. So for max healing you're best with a different class. Still, initial high healing and toughness just makes things easy for initial dungeons. It's for those players who haven't advanced to the CoC yet and haven't a clue about how to use herbs.

[gut]

The ID *IS* the best friend to the mid-game troll.
Picking up exp. level ~28 in there is not difficult... in
the mid game. It only becomes problematic if going
for high exp. levels. The ID is not worth the corruption,
for a troll to get to level ~40. That's what the EG is
for : )

> You will eventually regret having that corruption. Period

The regen corruption? Because of the scars? I
haven't noted a downside to the scars myself.

> I had a troll generated with 18St and 18To.

Iv'e had a gray elven wizard, generated with Le 10.
So what does that prove. I re-rolled and got one
with Le 27. Problem fixed.

Yes, Iv'e heard the 'roll scumming sucks' argument,
but let's face it, that's what some races are there
for. Playing a weak troll or a stupid elf, and then
COMPLAINING about the race is just nuts. Do not
cripple the PC then complain about the PC.

Trolls healers can start with St 26 and To 30. Add
regen capabilities into that, and a new player will
get to see MUCH more of the game than they
would with most other race/class combos. After
you learn the ropes, then definitely switch.

[Elone]

You can see number of scars in 'B'ackground. Each scar reduces your dexterity by a number.

ID's danger levels (and therefore curruption levels) are 2x weaker than in CoC. That means, to get to corruption level that corresponst that of CoC45, you need to go down to level 90.

Keep that in mind. You can go to double the depth, and still have a tolerably slow background corruption.

[gut]

> You can see number of scars in 'B'ackground. Each
> scar reduces your dexterity by a number

Are you sure about that? I do not recall having my
De stat reduced at all from scars. I have seen game
winners in the HoF that finish with HUNDREDS of
scars, they have fine De stats.

[Silfir]

ID danger levels are the same as CoC danger levels. Corruption begins on ID:10, just like corruption begins in D:10.

If I remember correctly, for the purposes of item generation only the danger level of the ID is its dungeon number divided by three. So you get just as dangerous monsters, but crappier items than in the other dungeons.

I distinctly remember having the "Your wounds leave scars" message all the time... I guess you don't notice the Dex losses as much because you always have those huge stacks of mosses of mareilon to fix it. The guidebook is wrong there - it's not nasty at all :) You can have as many scars as you want as long as you have mosses of mareilon.

The awesome Dex scores winners tend to have also stem from the fact that many of the corruptions that don't prompt an instant removal reflex give temporary Dex penalties, which enable you to use more mosses of mareilon to increase base Dex to higher amounts. Since almost every player gets rid of his corruption, it's not at all surprising suddenly to end up with godly Dex scores.

[Elone]

I went all the way to ID49 and remained in between 48 and 49 and corruption was not as strong as in CoC. I know what I'm saying.

This is from GB, and it's a spoiler.


In the Infinite dungeon, N is 20 for levels 10-29, 15 for levels 30-49, 10 for levels 50-69, 5 for levels 70-89, and 2 for levels 90 and above. For other areas, N is 20 for DL 10-19, 15 for DL 20-29, 10 for DL 30-39, 5 for DL 40-44, and 2 for DL 45 and above.

The N is a multiplier. The smaller the number, the faster the corruption gets. Notice how multiplier becomes 2 when you are above CoC45, and it becomes 2 once you're over ID 90. ID dungeon does not take danger levels (but dungeon levels) into its corruption formula. ID is roughly twice as tolerant and corruption-safe to you, compared to any other dungeon.

[Grey]

The first scar will reduce your Dex and Ap scores. Every subsequent scar will not.

Interesting about the infinite dungeon... Certainly the danger level of monsters seems to follow the same sequence as the CoC. And corruption is still bad in the ID if you're trying to get to level 50 with a troll - I picked up 14 corruptions going from level 30 to level 50 in the ID. Not something most chars would do, but still shows that the ID is not a nice place to hang around. Still, I guess with a buff character going to 48/49 and stair-hopping for threat rooms could be worth a few levels if needed (though at that stage you might as well go finish the game).

[Starhawk]

Well, my troll died. I'm not sure if I'll play another. I loved having all the Str to lug stuff around, 300hp at 16th level and a pile of melee damage... but.... I think being able to level quickly would have been better.

I never did see more than a handful of spellbooks with this character, either. That might have changed things a bit.

Even with a gigantic strength and Wyrmlance, I still got trashed by the ACW in melee. I have never had a character that was able to melee the ACW to death :( might try a pure melee class like a fighter and see what I can do.

This sucks, too -- had 10x SoCR sitting in the old barbarian's glade waiting for me.

[Grey]

Did you have no healing potions or spenseweed? It's impossible to melee the bugger without doing some major healing every few rounds. Water Orb also helps with that (it corrupts less if you're wearing the elemental gauntlets).

I wouldn't recommend Fighters - they're fairly poor. You're better off with Monks, but just play them as if you were a Fighter (heavy armour and weapons). Barbarians are the best for outright brutality. For fast levelling gnomes outstrip everything by leaps and bounds, though hurthlings are very good too. Also remember that Barbarians, Monks, Rangers, Paladins and Fighters need 20% more xp than most other classes. Priests are quite good if you want decent melee but still want to find spellbooks - just take care with them at the very start as they're initially quite weak (though high elves start with elven chain and a long bow, which is extremely handy).

[Starhawk]

The ACW stacked a couple crits on me in quick succession and took out my last 200hp before I could trigger off the Orb. Massively unlucky.

I've beaten the game with a gnomish priest (my only victory). I had to creep through D:50 for a wands of destruction ending. I was hoping to build a character that could take on the balors and their leader and close the gate properly, then maybe after that try for some ultra endings.

Not sure what kind of character will really do the job though. I like the melee/spellcasting ability of the priest; wizards die like flies, and straight melee characters aren't really flexible enough (so little spellcasting). I was hoping the healer would be a nice new hybrid - but I got very little spells and my melee was (relatively) wimpy, even with maces of destruction, Tactics skill, etc etc.

[gut]

> I loved having all the Str to lug stuff around, 300hp at
> 16th level and a pile of melee damage

and

> Even with a gigantic strength and Wyrmlance, I still
> got trashed by the ACW in melee.

So you were doing the ToEF at exp. level 16? Remember,
most PC's would be doing the Pyramid at that level. This
is the scenario in which trolls benefit from the ID threat
rooms. It wouldn't have taken long to navigate to a rather
deep ID level, if you use the 'stairhopping' diving method.
The troll would have gained much needed exp. levels, with
very little corruption. When trolls do gain exp. levels, it
makes a BIG difference.

For the Wyrm, I do believe the best tactic is to stun him.
Just get a 'meat shield' between you and the ACW (demons
work nicely), and zap some wands of stunning until you
get him. If you have the stun ray spell, all the better. You
can also use disabling potions to great effect. Confusion is
best, but blindness/cursed invis works good too.

[Grey]

So you were doing the ToEF at exp. level 16? Remember,
most PC's would be doing the Pyramid at that level.

Quite normal for a troll to be honest. I've cleared the Tower with great ease with a level 17 troll before (and that was pretty short on equipment too). 300 HP and Wyrmlance is almost a guarantee of success in there. Taking over 200 damage in one round is simply bizarrely unlucky. Not that extra levels would have hurted, but I think he really was quite ready.

[Starhawk]

Anyone know if a potion of sickness would've worked on the ACW? My Stun Ray spell kept bouncing off...

I did the Pyramid the instant I hit level 13 and it was a cakewalk, and I didn't have too much of a problem with the skeletal king -- I think I just handled the ACW fight badly and had poor luck.

[gut]

The ACW is capable of deciding to fight to death
in a blind rage. That means he can get extra turns
on top of being horribly difficult. If you are going
to melee him, you should either be at a very high
exp. level, or find some method of disabling him.

Recently, I tried to stun the ACW with a stun ray
spell, effectivity 1. It took seven bolts with a
wizard, so I imagine that it would take more with
a non-wizard. With my next wizard though, I trained
the spell to effectivity 7, before entering the tower.
It then only took one stun ray to disable him.

[riktikticheck]

hehe my recent win, the bard meleed the ACW to death ;) and i don't think i headled more than once during that fight....

i think i had about 250-300 hp about 50-60 DV with 30-35 PV so he missed a few and his average hit only caused a small amount of damage, can't really be sure now, but as i remember it the deamons hit me more with punching trough armor than the ACW ever did - same goes for the other orb guardians to, they rarely penetrate armor, even if they have high to hot, so stock up on the PV gear and you feel alot safer.

i especially remember with warmth the ecro with str of atlas and moloch armor, the stone beast didn't damage me once, and then i died as i forgot to renew the atlas :( but the point is the grues penetrate armor easily, the guardians don't, they do crit but you are well protectedby your armor.