Character attribute determination

[Nezur]

How do you think the character stats should be determined at the character creation?



At the moment there seems to be 3 options according to the JADE video:
Point-based attribute building
Random
Based on the story method (questions, I assume)



I second the point-based method. I used to like the random attribute determination because it felt more roguelike and I thought the point-based attribute building would just lead to so-called min-maxing (maxing out the most important stats for the profession in question at the cost of minimizing less important stat values) which in turn would lead into characters of the same profession being very similar. I changed my view because the limited freedom of the random method can be circumvented by repeatedly rolling new characters for the best stats. I also don't like the question method because you can eventually just look up the question stat modifiers on the net.

In my opinion the point system should be done so that it doesn't allow the player to create a highly intelligent troll for an ideal wizard or a hurthling with massive strength. I think the point-based system might turn out nice if the player cannot tweak the attributes too much so that races will have noticeable effect on stats. In my opinion RPGs with irrevelent races in this respect are boring.


By the way: do think that the character sex should affect the game in any way?

I'm for it if the effects will be balanced regardless of race and profession.

[theotherhiveking]

Heyyy Nezur!



I think that each race should have some prefixed stats


So if the stats are this ones:

str
agi
con
wis
cha
int

The initial troll ones would look like this:

str 16
agi 10
cons 16
wis 6
cha 6
int 8

Then you have 30 points to add, you can add 3 points over the initial score of a stat without penalty

for example 3 points to str

str 19
agi 10
cons 16
wis 6
cha 6
int 8

27 points left

Now we want to add 2 points more, but we receive a penalty, each additional point to str now is worth 2 points (after another 3 points the penalty raises to 3.. then to 4 and so on)


str 21
dex 10
cons 16
wis 6
cha 6
int 8

23 points left

We want our troll to be able to dodge something and be able to throw boulders and these things not only far, but with some precision too. so we raise dex to 16

str 21
dex 16
cons 16
wis 6
cha 6
int 8

14 points left


We want a wise 'sort of' troll, like a shaman, so we add some points to wis

str 21
dex 16
cons 16
wis 12
cha 6
int 8


7 points left

And he must be tough,

str 21
dex 16
cons 19
wis 12
cha 6
int 8


4 points left

and then we just add randomly the other points


str 21
dex 16
cons 19
wis 12
cha 9
int 9

no points left.



So we have a troll as intelligent as the dumbest of the humans, but he knows a lot (at least for trolls is) hes quite accurate and fast, and very strong, like all trolls.

[theotherhiveking]

Now, the sistem above is a common one.. but we want it to be not open to abuse, right?


Well, by each point under a given minimum of the non-favoured stats, several disadvantages arise:

for example, the limit is always stat initial score + 3

initial int was 6, so if you don't raise it to at least 9, you will get several problems, like shopkeepers raising their prices, problems to talk (hard to get random quest), and other plain stupid things like random staggering each 100 turns or so.

If you are Over that score. You receive bonuses, because you are a exceptionally intelligent troll, people will trust you and appreciate you more, and shopkeepers will have fear because if you notice the high prices and you smash them, so they offer the items cheaper.


Cha: Much like int, but penalties and bonuses are more 'social' related.

str: under 6 of strength? No wonder if you cant run or swim, of even wield a weapon. Movement speed halved

Cons: A poking finger! Dead, Flu!, dead, A cow!, dead, any things that causes diseasses, dead.

wis: I know how to do things, bonuses to skills that requiere knowledge. healing, necromancy,spellcraft, alchemy, gemonology etc...

Dex: move this finger.. I said THIS one.. oh DAMN! YOU MOVE LIKE A DAMN PUPPET!

[spectre]

I am not against systems open to abuse. If JADE's rng is as bad as ADOM's, I'm not taking any chances (-:

If I were to rewrite the system from scratch, first of all, I would make the stat increases less frequent, but more meaningful. And make it hard to increase beyond racial maximum, so that these things really do matter.

As to the creation method, I am partial to randomization, plus a few freebie points to iron out some rough edges.
I like the way ADOM does it now, some of he randomization is reflected in your starting story.
To be honest, full randomization isn't that bad at all. Think about it, with point distribution, if you knew, you need 10 Le to be literate,
wouldn't you go for it 80% of the time?

"because you are a exceptionally intelligent troll, people will trust you and appreciate you more"

Would they, really? So before you were a drooling, hulking, man-eating brute, and now you are cunning, hulking, man-eating brute... computer says no.
I think it takes a while to get past racial predjudice, it takes time, and many in-depth conversations. Stats and social skills do help, but it still takes a bit.
Of course, it depends on how much specieizm is pronounced in JADE

[under 6 of strength? No wonder if you cant run or swim, of even wield a weapon. Movement speed halved]
This, otoh, depends on how you picture what strength does, and how it works in relation to body mass.
A troll with a str of 6 means he's lost a lot of body mass, and is in fact really, really, feeble.
A halfling with such strength, on the other hand, should be an average member of his or her species, and really shouldn't have much problems operating normally.

What w do get from that? Well, first of all, that seperate Toughness and Strength values sometimes make little to no sense (yeah, so I am exceptionally tough, but I don't do lifting much), and it's all in relation to body mass...
but hey, it's only a game.

[theotherhiveking]

Thats why i said the minimum value to not take penalty's is not hard coded, is determined by your initial stats.


And average halfling should have around 9 str, and a human around 12-13.


Just look at that halfing wielding that 50kg great sword of heaviness along with a full plate armor and a cow as headgear.

So you can distribute your stats freely and be still forced to make a char that makes sense. Just look at a retarded human as a knight... So you don't are able to have dump stats (well you can, if you want to play a char that has some kind of problem)


About the troll.

Check it yourself


int 6:

*enters the shop*
-troll: shhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Small Swoooortd!
-shop keeper: *omfg??* points at the troll's bags of *shiny stones*
-shop keeper: In want that *Opale* shiny stone full bag.
Troll: *gives the bag worth 250 gold coins that the troll just stolen from a caravan* *takes the rusty short sword worth 100 gold coins.

int 9:

*enters the shop*

Troll: gimme that sword
shop keeper *O_o* Ok, here you go.
troll: Rusty sword? Try again or will smash you head
shop keeper *glup* Ok take this one, I want in exchange that bad of stones.
troll: Stones eh? This sword pays 3 shiny stones.
shop keeper: but...
troll: 3 STONES!
shop keeper: Ok.

You take a normal sword worth 150 gold coins for 180 coins.


Just a example.

[Pustka]

Just look at that halfing wielding that 50kg great sword of heaviness along with a full plate armor and a cow as headgear.

So you can distribute your stats freely and be still forced to make a char that makes sense. Just look at a retarded human as a knight... So you don't are able to have dump stats (well you can, if you want to play a char that has some kind of problem)


one of the features in fantasy worlds and reasons to play games is that u can become extremly powerfull or at least extremly resourcefull. pen and pencil rgp constrain player in that field cos there its more about role-playing then uberownage. so while at character creation the idea of preventing maxing out choosen stats is nice but later in game the boundries should be broaden for stats.

retarded human as a knight ? hearing that really makes me a sad panda :(

and about the example with troll:
example is nice but we dont know if JADE will feature anything similar to dialog options dependant from int

[theotherhiveking]

one of the features in fantasy worlds and reasons to play games is that u can become extremly powerfull or at least extremly resourcefull. pen and pencil rgp constrain player in that field cos there its more about role-playing then uberownage. so while at character creation the idea of preventing maxing out choosen stats is nice but later in game the boundries should be broaden for stats.


Yup, stats should train normally, I said all this because the 28str 6 dex 6 int 6 cha 6 12 cons troll it's a plain stupid char, and it even kills everything in 1 hit is a walking tank that can even get normal prices in a shop and talking to the old sage to recieve the uber quest of world ownage and even GET THE QUEST!


How can a troll with 6 of int tell something that has sense? That beast only can point and talk in single words. Like 'Me. smaaAaash Poop.'

Anyway The Epic PCs should rely on their skills rather that in their stats.

Imagine twin brothers, same stats.


One is good at computers, and the other is good at football. Why? because they have trained those 'skills' Of course the one who plays football will train his dex and strength, maybe even their charisma, the one with the computer will train his int, because he has to think if he want to be a programmer or know of stuff works he also is likely to train his wisdom.

But. Imagine that the twin that learned to use the pc has much more dex that his brother (20 vs 15), who will win?

The one that has been football all his life should insta-own the one with 20, because he much more skilled.



I must tell you, im not a big fan of classes, they are handy in PnP games because it would be a pain to control everything, but in a computer game, you should just choose your race, and let your 'class' be decided based on how your PC is acting.


and about the example with troll:
example is nice but we dont know if JADE will feature anything similar to dialog options Dependant from int


AJJAj, I don't know about dialogs, just i was pointing how it should affect the prices. I think it will just work as every other roguelike, determine the price based on the X stat, or the X, Y and Z stats.. Like the price determination based on your race and the shop keeper one in adom. I don't think the will be any dialog (at least for shops)

[Pustka]

then again, some major chats in the game like for example conversations with major quest givers and major vilans maybe could have those dialog options dependant from int :D wouldnt that be nice ? ;> dont worry i know it would still be pain in the ass to implement :cool:

edit:

and about the stiuped troll and getting quest: well beings low on intelligence still manage to functions somehow. theres also empathy and stuff. and we could assume the quest giver can try to slowly explain the quest to the stiuped troll:
"Yoooouuuu (pointing at the troll) gooo killlll to the scary forest (pointing north). Youuuuu killll (bashing gesture) big liiiizzaaard" :P

[theotherhiveking]

then again, some major chats in the game like for example conversations with major quest givers and major vilans maybe could have those dialog options dependant from int :D wouldnt that be nice ? ;> dont worry i know it would still be pain in the ass to implement :cool:

edit:

and about the stiuped troll and getting quest: well beings low on intelligence still manage to functions somehow. theres also empathy and stuff. and we could assume the quest giver can try to slowly explain the quest to the stiuped troll:
"Yoooouuuu (pointing at the troll) gooo killlll to the scary forest (pointing north). Youuuuu killll (bashing gesture) big liiiizzaaard" :P


*the troll kills the big lizard (ancient black dragon :p)*

Old sage: thaaaaaaaaaaaaanks you to muuuuuch! take this as a rewarrrrrrrd *gives a rotting cookie*
troll: Happy Happy! *leaves, but the dragon took one of his legs* *bleeds to death* *roots* *becomes a big skeleton* *Is resurrected by a Necromancer as his bone golem guardian* *the necromancer becomes a lich after 40 years or so* *the necromancer has enough powah to give inteligente to the golem* *the golem gains 12 inteligence* *the golem learns magic* *the golem is able to ressurect undead in his own* *the golem gains another 6 inteligence points* *the golem becomes a lich* *the necromancer masters the powers of chaos* *the necromancer teachs the powers of chaos to the undead golem lich* *the necromancer treats the golem as his equal instead of as his minion* *the undead lich golem masters the powers of chaos* *the golem and the necromancer take use their power to return thier flesh* *they both become intencionally corrupted* *the golem polymorps and twist thier corrupted flesh with his POWAH! and becomes a Great Demon* *his master rule the chaos plane* *The undead lich demon golem creates a gate to return to arcardia in the deeps of a cave* *The golem uses his powers of chaos to take totally back to life his undead army and the he corrups them so they grow wings and become more powerful in general* *the golem gives inteligente to his minions* *the demons attack arcardia* *A great hero enters the cave* *the great hero reachs the gate* *the great hero crosses the gate* *the golem corrups and kills the hero* *the golem brings back to life and corrups the hero* *the hero now serves the golem as his ChAoS ChAmPiOn* *ThE ChAoS ChAmPiOn now commands their armies* *the power of the necromancer and chaos mage and the undead lich demon golem is now immense* *The demon send His ChOs ChAmPiOn to conquer arcardia* *he succeds* *the necromancer rewards him with a portion of arcardia and the promise of more power* *The ChAoS ChAmPiOn conquest the whole Order plane with all his layers* *the necromancer is extreme pleased and gives him arcardia and other 3 whole planes as his realm* *They become the ChaOs TrInItY* *They discover the presence of more planes* *they attack the planes* *the other planes launch a attack to arcardia* *an evil hero reach the cave* *the golem is really pleased* *the hero takes the place of the now god ChAoS ChAmPiOn in arcardia while the TrInItY attacks the other planes* *they new ChAoS ChAmPiOn is corrupted and becomes very powerful* *The trinity gives him a small part of their army to take arcardia back* *The new ChAmPiOn reachs half of the power of the necromancer* *The new ChAmPiOn becomes the official ruler of the chaos plane by order of the necromancer* *the new ChAmPiOn finds a mighty hero makes him serve him as the commander of his troops* *the ruler of the chaos plane tells everyone that he killed the chaos trinity to scare stupid and annoying heros* *the trinity dont care too much* *they take again over arcardia* *the trinity take over all planes* *The game crashes* *thomas becomes angry* *thomas takes over the universe* *everyone dies*