The Weakest Link: Discussion Thread

[Grey]

You walk into a large dark arena, the moist stench of sweat and blood filling the air. Hidden in the gloom around you are stalls filled with braying spectators, whooping and cheering with a deep lust for blood. Ahead, through the darkness, you can make out a huge iron throne. On it sits a monstrous figure in dark armour, his head plated in a large horned helm. He looks as old as the tallest mountains, but with a deep fiery rage burning within. His shadowy eyes flicker over you, seeming to value your existence as minor at best.

The Arena Grandmaster opens his mouth and booms in a deep voice, "Welcome, miserable mortals, to the Arena of Death! You will not find reward here, you won't even find fame. Your short-lived adventure serves only to bring us brief amusement. You will compete with others in the depths of infinity, struggling to make your way deeper through horrors and hells. The weakest links shall be torn from the chain, until a few solitary members strive to stay off the madness that lurks in the sinister fathoms of the corrupted dungeon. Soon you will all die, and we will laugh at the sight of your blood and guts spilled in those lonely and desolate places. So step forth now, pathetic wretch, and we will see how quickly you become... The Weakest Link!"

As the crowd jeers at you, mocking your pitiful plight, you take a few cautious steps forward to the shadowy stairway in the middle of arena. Looking down you see simply nothingness leading off into infinity. You gulp in fear and excitement, and step down into the dungeon to meet your fate...


The games shall now begin! The Weakest Link is now open, and the players are distributed into the following four leagues:

Doomed to burn in the League of Fire (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php?t=317):

1. riktikicheck (dead)
2. Grey (runner-up)
3. Orbic (dead)
4. deepshock (dead)
5. Soirana (Champion)
6. vogonpoet (dead)
7. Kingsdragon (removed)
8. ElectricalFire (removed)

Doomed to drown in the League of Water (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php?t=318):

1. Maul (dead)
2. Kato (dead)
3. DeSt (runner-up)
4. Ars (dead)
5. gut (Champion)
6. FantomFang (dead)
7. Flammeus (dead)
8. Covenant (removed)

Doomed to suffocate in the League of Air (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php?t=319):

1. Subconcious (dead)
2. kupico (dead)
3. reich (Champion)
4. Timpak (dead)
5. M_bowwarrior (dead)
6. Silfir (dead)
7. Lich (runner-up)
8. Baranor (dead)

Doomed to be buried in the League of Earth (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php?t=320):

1. Molach (dead)
2. Evil Knievel (dead)
3. ewolf (dead)
4. PeanutGod (runner-up)
5. Oliphaunt (dead)
6. JSuvanto (dead)
7. Nezur (Champion)
8. Smite (removed)


The top two players from each league will then compete in the final League of Mana.

riktikicheck, Maul, Subconcious and Smite, it is now your duty to start off your respective leagues. Please refer to the sign-up thread and be sure all the rules are clear to you.

This thread is for general discussion of all the leagues by everyone (spectators included). Game reports and save file uploads will be made in separate threads for each league - please do not make discussion posts in those threads.

League of Mana (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php?t=378) playing order:

1. gut (Water champion)
2. Soirana (Fire champion)
3. Nezur (Earth champion)
4. reich (Air champion)
5. DeSt (Water runner-up)
6. Grey (Fire runner-up)
7. PeanutGod (Earth runner-up)
8. Lich (Air runner-up)

[Grey]

And now the moment of truth...

The character generated is.... a Tree-born female hurthling priest. The name is initially set as 'X' - individual leagues can change it to whatever name they feel suits best. Talents chosen were Alert and Long Stride. I have brought the character to the entrance of the infinity dungeon and set the turn counter at 0. The save file is attached to this post. The initial character details are:



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X St: 9 Le:15 Wi:22 Dx:16 To:16 Ch:14 Ap:11 Ma:12 Pe:13 L
DV/PV: 30/0 H: 23(23) P: 20(20) Exp: 1/0 DrCh M: 0
Coward


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Background Information
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: X Race: female Hurthling Class: Priest
Eye color: light blue Hair color: brown Complexion: light
Height: 2'10" Weight: 61 pounds
Age: 39 (grown-up)
Star sign: Tree Birthday: 1/Tree (day 331 of the year)

YOUR HISTORY:
Your parents are travelling adventurers. Both are competent,
talented and doing very well.
In your childhood you were a credit to your family. Your people
loved you and enjoyed your presence.
As a kid you often watched the adult adventurers preparing for new
exciting journeys. They sparked your imagination.
Your young adulthood was characterized by hard and long work. You
had decided to study under a renowned master. To your great disappointment
you had to find out, that he was a hard, unjust and tyrannic man,
embittered by his old age. Your apprentice years were quite terrible.
You decided to become a Priest.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weapon Skills
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Melee weapon Lvl Hit Dam DV Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- --------------
Unarmed fighting 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 22
Daggers & knives 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 22
Clubs & hammers 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 22
Maces & flails 2 +2 +0 +0 basic 60
Swords 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 22
Axes 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 22
Whips 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 22
Pole arms 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 22
Twohanded weapons 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 22
Staves 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 22

Missile weapon Lvl Hit Dam Ra Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- --------------
Slings 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7
Bows 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 10
Crossbows 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 10
Thrown axes & hammers 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 10
Thrown daggers 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 10
Thrown rocks & clubs 4 +8 +6 +1 skilled 52
Thrown spears 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 10
Boomerangs & scurgari 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 10

Shields Lvl DV Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- ------------- --------------
Shields 1 +2 basic 37


Damage caused with your melee weapons:
--------------------------------------
Right hand: -3 bonus to hit, 1d6-3 damage


Damage caused with your missile weapons:
----------------------------------------
No missile weapons available.






----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skills
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archery ................... 13 (mediocre) [+3d3]
Climbing .................. 41 (fair) [+2d4]
Concentration ............. 39 (fair) [+4d5]
Cooking ................... 57 (good) [+1d3] (ma)
Detect item status ........ 84 (great) [+3d3]
First aid ................. 28 (mediocre) [+4d5]
Food preservation ......... 54 (good) [+3d5]
Gardening ................. 25 (mediocre) [+3d3]
Haggling .................. 31 (fair) [+4d5]
Healing ................... 53 (good) [+4d4]
Herbalism ................. 55 (good) [+3d5]
Listening ................. 32 (fair) [+3d3]
Literacy .................. 79 (great) [+3d4]
Music ..................... 20 (mediocre) [+4d4]
Stealth ................... 45 (fair) [+1d3]




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventory
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total weight: 718 stones Carrying capacity: 960 stones

Head : uncursed hat [+1, +0] [4s]
Neck : -
Body : uncursed clothes [+0, +0] [40s]
Girdle : -
Cloak : uncursed hooded cloak [+1, +0] [40s]
Right Hand : uncursed mace (+0, 1d6+1) [100s]
Left Hand : uncursed small shield [+2, +0] [50s]
Right Ring : cursed aquamarine ring [1s]
Left Ring : -
Bracers : -
Gauntlets : -
Boots : -
Missile weapon: -
Missiles : -
Tool : -


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total weight: 483 stones Carrying capacity: 960 stones

Tools (']')
heap of 2 uncursed torches [20s]
blessed box with flint and steel (15) [5s]
uncursed tinderbox (15) [3s]
uncursed cooking set [100s]
uncursed holy symbol [5s]
Instruments ('{')
uncursed harp [30s]
Potions ('!')
heap of 2 uncursed potions of water [8s]
heap of 2 uncursed potions of healing [8s]
uncursed potion of extra healing [2s]
Scrolls ('?')
uncursed scroll of gold detection [2s]
Books ('"')
uncursed spellbook of Cure Disease [100s]
Food ('%')
heap of 2 uncursed iron rations [200s]
Valuables ('$')
45 gold pieces [0s]


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Killed Monsters
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

She did not manage to vanquish any monsters.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Achievements
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

She survived for 0 years, 0 days, 22 hours, 16 minutes and 28 seconds (0
turns).
X visited 1 place.
Her perception score was modified by +1 during her career.
Best of luck to everyone - you'll bloody need it...

[Grey]

A note on cheating:

I want to be very clear on this - this is meant to be a simple and fun challenge game that everyone can enjoy equally. If you want to savescum or cheat by any means, do it in your own games. The rules are easy to abide by, and if you somehow find yourself unable to stick to them then that's just quite pathetic on your part. Maybe you should find an easier game to play. So don't reload saves, don't use the up stairs, and don't use any other form of breaking the rules. Death is part of the fun of ADOM, and this challenge aims to have a lot of it - learn to embrace your miserable demise. We all want to have plenty of fun from this, and if you can't do that through honest means then the only loser is you.

I've said this before on the Hall of Fame forums - rules depend solely on player honesty. If you cheat noone but you will know, but it'll stay there at the back of your mind, niggling away at everything you do, and no other success in life will ever feel just or sweet because you know, deep down, that you are a cheat and a fraud and a liar and always will be - it'll be a secret you carry to the grave, to the moment right before you plant a bullet through your brains because you can't stand the eternal guilt any more, and the only way to escape is to kill the person you detest most: yourself, for all your shameful, dirty ways that have stained and tainted every piece of joy you could ever have had in life, your worthless life, now doomed to end, and the knowledge that your hateful existance is finally being extinguished is the only piece of happiness you've felt in years, all those horrible years since you cheated at that challenge game. So please play fair ;)

And a big thanks to everyone for taking part - I wasn't expecting such a large turn-out, and I hope everyone has plenty of fun.

[DeSt]

Wooden Hurtling... meh...
Even early levels will be quite deadly :)

[head2]

"Her perception score was modified by +1 during her career."

wot the fook :p

[DeSt]

head2, Alert talent gives +1 Pe.

[Grey]

"Her perception score was modified by +1 during her career."

wot the fook :p

Alert talent :P

And yeah, tree-born hurthling is not exactly optimal. Surviving with 9 St will be hard as hell.

[Ars]

A hurthling... Looks like this won't last too long! I better try one out before my turn, haven't played hurthlings in ages...

[kupiko]

OOH gosh this is gonna be fun i love hurthlings :) Good luck everyone

[ewolf]

so theres going to be 4 different games going at once?

[Silfir]

So we get Cure Disease? That's not bad - it may save our sorry hides, at least for a while.

[DeSt]

Wow, first one down. 26 more to go :)

[Subconscious]

So am I right that you dont have to tell the reports after the third round starts? And can you lie about your report then? I mean you said that all tactics can be used then. :D

[Grey]

So am I right that you dont have to tell the reports after the third round starts? And can you lie about your report then? I mean you said that all tactics can be used then. :D

No no no! I specifically stated in the rules that you still have to be completely honest and open in your reports. Not only is this is in the interest of fairness on everyone, but it also makes the game more enjoyable for those spectating. You cannot benefit from hiding information.

[Subconscious]

Oh I see... It is really better that way, too much chaos if there would be no limits at all.

[Silfir]

"Well, I ditched all the needless stuff we had, healing potions and books, and made a nice bonfire out of it with our last Invoked Devastation spell. Personally, I *love* fighting enemies with only a quarterstaff and true berserker mode. How about you, my fellow players?"

[Maul]

Hah, there is a fine line between 'hindering other players' and 'becoming the weakest link because your fellow players are such incompetent losers they can't take a step without getting two critical hits and dying in a few seconds'. :D

[Grey]

Wow, Xantia in the League of Air is looking in some deep trouble there... I think we'll see more blood soon :D

[Kato]

My blood has already been shed. ahahaha This is awesome :D

[Maul]

Ogre pack looks nasty, I'll see how this turns out. As for the Water death, sorry to hear it, but remember - this means that I'm not the last!

[Grey]

Can I just make something else a little clear... Save files should only be viewed by the person that is taking up the reigns next. That means that I shouldn't be seeing "3 viewed" next to the file status, nor should I be seeing people "viewing attachment" on the Who's Online list when it's not their turn. I understand that people are curious to check out the saves, but it leaves the door wide open to cheating and abuse - please stop. If you don't then I may have to consider disqualification.

[gut]

I agree that players should not DL the save files unless
it is their turn. Perhaps some of the views, may have been
from those who are just 'following the progress'.

[Orbic]

Can I just make something else a little clear... Save files should only be viewed by the person that is taking up the reigns next.(snip)...

Maybe update the rules page?
Or PM the save file only to the next player, although I would prefer to rely on honesty.

[Epythic]

Please keep savefiles public.
I, as an observer, downloaded and played them all so far (downloaded one file multiple times because download crashed).

By the way, you cant disqualify anyone because you dont know who exactly downloaded them :)

EDIT: If I recall correctly, it was not said in the rules that it was disallowed to view other players progress... on the other hand, this might fall under "corrupt tactics", which means its disallowed in round 1 + 2 :)

[gut]

> Please keep savefiles public.

I also hope we keep the save files public, when the
tourney is done, I might like to DL a few of them myself.

> you cant disqualify anyone because you dont know
> who exactly downloaded them

Actually, like Grey said, you CAN see if someone is
viewing an attatchment in the 'Who's Online' list. I
hope no one gets DQ'd though, it's not as bad as save-
scumming, to me it just seems a bit fishy.

Peeking at a save file from your own league, would give
unfair advantages. Each player should start their turn
with zero experience with that PC. Getting experience
with a PC, even if it is a few thousand turns ahead of
schedule, could give you an edge.

Also, it may implant the idea into ones head that they
could even die with THAT save file, and it wouldn't even
be save scumming, because technically, it wasn't really
THEIR turn. I think it would be best if all players just
refrain from DL any save file (that is not meant for them),
until the game is through.

However, I was trying to think of any advantage that
one could get from peeking at the OTHER leagues
progress, and couldn't think of any. Just the possibility
that they might peek at hidden intrinsics, which they
could have done when their turn rolled around anyway.

[reich]

I wonder is the whole game a one-time event or is it gonna to continue after the final league has expired?

[Grey]

Actually, like Grey said, you CAN see if someone is
viewing an attatchment in the 'Who's Online' list. I
hope no one gets DQ'd though, it's not as bad as save-
scumming, to me it just seems a bit fishy.

The biggest problem I have is item identifications. Remember that these are preset for a char when it's created, so a scroll of identify for instance is the same "Kddlwyrt" or whatever for all these characters. Now anyone that loads one of these saves will not only have the items already found and so far unided, but will also pick up new items, and when they eventually die or quit with their playing around they will see all the item identifications. Even someone approaching with simple honest curiosity will find themselves with information that could normally only be achieved through savescumming. I don't really believe that anyone is checking saves out of maliciousness or a desire to cheat, but they're running the risk of putting themselves at an unfair advantage.

Disqualification is a last resort for anyone seen deliberately and repeatedly flaunting the rules. I have no intention or desire to use it, but people should be aware that it's an option that will still always remain open. If you think what you're doing is fishy or questionable in any way, then don't do it.

Anyway, back to the game, which is far more interesting... The Water char (maybe call her Kenni instead of Kenny?) is looking pretty nice so far, and PV line certainly seems a good choice. But with Divine Wrath and Treasure Hunter I have high hopes for Hochi - I will do my very best to ensure she rises above everyone :) Still, you never know if the Air league can pull themselves out of their troubles, and the league of Earth is a complete wildcard at the moment... Many fun trials lay ahead for us all :)

[gut]

It's kind of funny, that we are putting our thoughts into our
own respective league 'game-reports' threads. It's not as
though that keeps them from being read by all leagues : ) I
actually like the idea though, of them available to all. It
still just seems to me somehow 'right', to post them in the
water league thread : )

Grey.
> With darkness we're safe. This is especially important for
> threat or tension rooms (though don't stand in the doorway)

As strange as it is, you are technically safe as long as you
are the one standing in the doorway. You can be hit, if it is
the monster that is in the doorway, and you are in the dark.
Don't ask me why, I don't have the foggiest.

It's still good advice though, best to just stay away from
darkness + doorways. The two just don't mix.


EDIT:
I would like to point out, that our girl(?) Kenny has a fine Ap
stat. The only reason it is currently at 9, is because she(?) is
wearing a blood stained robe {Ap - 2}. You want to know
WHY it's stained with blood? Let's just say it has something
to do with the last 'Hoochy' that came along and insulted
her(?)! ; )

EDIT #2:
One thing that has come to mind, is how much
we all may be using the darkness spell for
survival. I will give a brief list of notable
monsters that do and don't 'see in the dark'.
I will also list tactics for using it against
a couple of different monster types.

Do see in the dark:

All Orc, all undead, all trolls, deamons, dark
elven anythings, chaos brothers (and sisters),
most (all?) red dragons, and some golems (I
think stone, steel, diamond, and eternium, and
steel horrors. That's all the notable 'see'ers'
that I can think of.

Don't see in dark: All vortexes, all mimics,
most (all?) non-red dragons, all giants (like
ogres, ogre magi, ettins, titans and even greater
titans), most humanoids (like all berserkers,
swordsmen, barbarians, hags, and ratlings), most
animals/insects, and most golems (I'm not 100%
about some of these, so still be careful, flesh,
clay, iron, and crystal statues).

If your enemy uses missiles or spells (like an
ogre magi, or titan), cast darkness immediately,
then seek to engage in combat. This lessens the
chance of taking a (possibly critical) hit from
a distance. You might lose them in the darkness,
since they tend to stagger around a bit, if they
aren't very close to you, upon the casting. Just
stumble around until you find them. It's usually
not that big of a deal, if you have to leave the
darkness to find them. They normally can't kill
you with one hit anyway.

If your enemy is really dangerous in close combat
(like a vortex, or mimic) lure them within a space
or two of you before casting darkness. This
lessens the chance that they might 'get away' from
you in the darkness. You don't want to have to
leave the darkness, with dangerous enemies like
that still floating around. You know the RNG will
have them standing just one step outside your
protection, waiting to insta-kill you : )

[Grey]

I would like to point out, that our girl(?) Kenny has a fine Ap
stat. The only reason it is currently at 9, is because she(?) is
wearing a blood stained robe {Ap - 2}.

Well our girl wouldn't be seen dead in such atrocious attire (admittedly the extra PV point would help her stay not dead). Besides that still leaves your whelp 1 Ap point naturally lower than Hochi.



All Orc, all undead, all trolls, deamons, dark
elven anythings, chaos brothers (and sisters),
most (all?) red dragons, and some golems (I
think stone, steel, diamond, and eternium, and
steel horrors. That's all the notable 'see'ers'
that I can think of.

All forms of bats too. The most notable to remember though are the orcs, trolls and dark elves. Almost everything else is fairly rare, and if encountered should likely be run away from rather than faced.


If your enemy is really dangerous in close combat
(like a vortex, or mimic) lure them within a space
or two of you before casting darkness.

Best of all, get them in a corridor - they're unlikely to escape you then. If they're in a room and you cast darkness then you'll easily lose them, or worse yet they might panick and run away. In a corridor they're much more easily trapped.

[gut]

> Best of all, get them in a corridor - they're unlikely to escape you then.

You WANT dangerous monsters to have an escape route.
If they panic, and have no where to run, they will attack
you. In narrow corridors, monsters will come along and
block their get-away, so it creates a dangerous situation.
You can be insta-killed that way, when fighting a vortex,
mimics aren't as bad, but still bad.

Also, I was browsing through the first sign-up page, and
didn't notice Smite on the list. I looked through the other
pages on the sign-up thread, and didn't see any posts
from him there either. Maybe he doesn't know he is signed
up?

[reich]

can someone anwser my question please?


I wonder is the whole game a one-time event or is it gonna to continue after the final league has expired?

[Subconscious]

After 4 elements there is still the finales. (aka Mana League?)
But after that Im not sure if we're gonna make any other group challenges like this, maybe.

[Grey]

gut:
http://www.adom.de/forums/search.php?searchid=23243

I forgot to add him to the list (along with others who've signed up since, but then that list is now somewhat irrelevant) but he certainly did sign up and so is included. He has until 12:00 pm GMT on Thursday (another 41 hours) to play or he'll be bumped to the back of his league. I will message him now to be sure he's aware. There are going to be many pauses in play as people don't realise it's their turn yet to play, so people should learn to be patient :)

reich:
What do you mean? Will we run other competitions like this in future? Depends on the success of this and demand for another, and possibly even different ideas on format changes or completely new game ideas. I certainly think we'll see more of the same, or similar, in the future after this is played out, alongside other regular challenge games (like traditional random character challenges), though how frequently I don't know.

[gut]

ICAN'TLEARNTOBEPATIENT,ITTAKESTOOLONG!

Seriously, I didn't mean to rush anyone. Just
got a bit too excited there. Yesterday there
were updates all over the place, and today...

[Grey]

Heh, woulda thought you'd be a bit used to it after the Rhea challenge... But I think everyone's on edge about this - the number of currently active users is much higher than normal, and everyone seems ready to pounce in when it hits their turn. Hopefully things will get moving more soon.

[Molach]

I was thinking 72 hours was a bit long time. Next time, mabye better to make the limit shorter...48 or even 24. Cuz if I can't play there and then, I'd not mind getting one bump down the line to keep it flowing. Being a polymath, I just realized that 72 hours is like...3 whole days.

[Nezur]

48 hours is enough in my opinion.

[Grey]

I disagree. Many people have busy lives and don't get to check this place every day. 2 days can go fast. Even 3 days will be too short for some. I'm in the middle of exams for instance, and may need the time to devote to revision (though to be honest it serves as an awesome distraction ;)) "Bumping down the line" is something I will only allow during the first round - after that I would consider it unfair, and anyone missing their turn will simply be out. Like I said I will stretch to 7 days if anyone has special circumstances (as can easily pop up).

Perhaps though... to increase the likelihood of the next person picking up things quickly, everyone could message or e-mail the person after them when they're finished their round. This is easily done by using the links on the right-hand box in the member's profile. Some people might see this as being a bit spammy, but it would make sure people know ASAP that their turn is due. What do you guys think?

[reich]

I'm also having exams right now (why didn't the game start in july?:mad:) so IMO the 3 day limit is an adequate timeframe. With all the apparent excitement about the game, I don't think private messages will be necessary. Especially when the stakes will go higher!

Could someone explain briefly what the (legendary, illustrious) Rhea challenge was about? :)

[Grey]

The Rhea game, possibly more known as the Roman Republic challenge, was an idea thought up by Silfir and acted out on the Hall of Fame forums. Instead of people competing in the ID everyone worked together, turn after turn, to bring a random character to victory. That character was a female grey elven merchant called Rhea (named after the mother of Romulus and Remus, founders of the Roman Republic). With some rather extreme luck (and many close calls) we got through the whole thing with no one dying in their turn, closing the gate and leaving the Chain in peace. The full challenge discussion can be seen here (http://adom.brinkster.net/forum/messages.asp?thread=5882&start=55988&page=1), and the reports of Rhea's progress here (http://adom.brinkster.net/forum/messages.asp?thread=5891&start=56068&page=1), with log files (including the flg at the end) here (http://adom.brinkster.net/forum/messages.asp?thread=5892&start=56084&page=1).

[reich]

Sounds like fun, and quite an achievement. Grey elf merchant!!

But how did you reach consensus about what needs to be done next?

[Grey]

We argued and bickered ;) Well, generally we came to a consensus about many things or gave each other advice, but everyone acted on their own decisions. It was called a "Roman Republic Game" because each player acted like the consuls of Rome did, having full authority over the character's actions for their turn. It was not a democracy, and everyone could do what they liked really, but of course we were all interested in the welfare of the character. It resulted in a lot of cock-ups I will admit, like leaving SoCRs behind before the final CoC dive (my fault), or not training with morgia fully (we were still using it right up to the unreal caves - people kept forgetting on their turns). Also resulted in stupid decisions and oversights people would likely never have normally made - one guy forgot to wear the AMW for see invis before the cat lord for instance, whilst I made the same dumb mistake in the Mana Temple (resulting in about 15 near death experience in the space of a few minutes). Very fun overall though - everyone really cared for the character by the end.

[Evil Knievel]

>Maybe he doesn't know he is signed
up?

Definitely looks like that. I remember reading his name somewhere, but don't remember the posting. I could not find it though searching.

EDIT: found it:
http://www.adom.de/forums/showpost.php?p=3830&postcount=47

EDIT2: and sent a mail.

[reich]

Pity I wasn't around the forums back then. I regained interest in ADoM just recently, due to the announcements that JADE is impending. I hope there will be more challanges like this to take part in in the near future:)

[gut]

> Even 3 days will be too short for some.

I agree on the 3 day time limit. I really wasn't meaning
to imply the limit was to long. What I was meaning to
say (in my normally un-clear way), is that I found it
surprising to have so few updates. There are four
leagues, so I was thinking there would be a higher
probability of frequent updates.

The lack of updates made me wonder whether all
players knew it was their turn. Upon seeing that a
name was not in the sign up page, I thought I should
ask about it. Just to make sure.

I don't think we need to email each player when it's
their turn. Three days is not a long time to wait, and
I think that it was maybe a fluke to have so few updates.
Future days are bound to be more productive (I hope).

> It resulted in a lot of cock-ups I will admit, like leaving
> SoCRs behind

Don't forget about when we killed the white unicorn for the
PoGA's, and then someone forgot to collect them before the
final dive. That one was mine alone : )

EDIT:
I have just read the air league thread. I would vote for
option #2. I think that option #3 is just a league-wide
save-scum. Everyone gets reborn because of an ogre
tension room? It's horrible luck, but maybe more careful
play could have given a better shot there. Hopefully,
someone can get past those ogres, and it won't be a
problem.

Also, shouldn't some of that air league discussion be
here, on the discussion thread?

[Grey]

Also, shouldn't some of that air league discussion be
here, on the discussion thread?

I am going to hope for now that it's an isolated circumstance that won't even come to a bad end - we shall see. Even if it's not isolated I think such cases do need to be considered individually, and the best format for that is within the individual leagues. For instance in this case it seems to me that the situation was almost unavoidable, and not due to player error (in which case that player would be out). However if I feel it will affect the leagues as a whole then I'll move discussion over here - right now I think it's premature to do that. As for the potential for scumming, I don't think that will be done, and in the situation of a seemingly impossible situation I think every player will try their hardest to escape it - the rewards for achieving what no one else in their group could are too high.

Of course, when competitive play comes into place then what I presented as "option 2" will be default. Right now I just don't want to lose the whole damned league before the first round is finished!

[gut]

> For instance in this case it seems to me
> that the situation was almost unavoidable,

I feel like a heel, to point out flaws in
other players strategies, but I will do it
anyway : (

I think the dive was too rapid. To battle
spiders is an option, even without the
slow poison spell. You may even come away
with poison resistance. Continually diving,
to avoid battle is a very risky strategy.

I think the dive unintentionally created
a fatal situation, and the whole league
shouldn't have to suffer for it:

> 1.) The league is over,

Neither should the whole team be rewarded
for it:

> 3.) Everyone is resurrected and reich
> retakes his turn

Call it bad luck, or bad strategy, but to
revive a warrior after a death is a save
scum. If players start getting do-overs,
because of the RNG, we will never see the
end of it.

Option #2 fits my understanding of the rules.

> 2.) Everyone is resurrected except reich,

He definitely got a bad deal from the RNG,
and in his position, I might have wound up
in the same spot, but... that's ADOM.

[Grey]

True enough. It's still a matter under consideration, and like I said I hope it is just idle thought at the moment. We will see how things pan out before I make a decision.

[Orbic]

True enough. It's still a matter under consideration, and like I said I hope it is just idle thought at the moment. We will see how things pan out before I make a decision.

RNG destroying a league is not fair, that is true.
BUT ADOM is not fair! We accept it when we play, why not accept it here?
I think the current issue could have been avoided if the air league had played in a truly cooperative way: upon finding out that a near impossible task was ahead, the player in charge could have committed suicide for the benefit of the league :D - especially in the 1st round.
I also share the opinion (and shame to express it) of Gut, maybe they descended too fast.

The way out could be: all players die so that the league comes back to before the encounter with the ogres.
The unlucky one who found the ogres is out, unlucky! (not worse than pit vipers or rock trap, is it?)

[reich]

Whoa. we still have no less than 5 people to go. Together we have decided a reasonable strategy. M_bowwarior and Silfir are troopers and they are probably gonna get our league out of this mess I caused. So no reason to panic yet.


I think the dive was too rapid. To battle
spiders is an option, even without the
slow poison spell. You may even come away
with poison resistance. Continually diving,
to avoid battle is a very risky strategy.

To fight a horde of poisonous tarantulas and the summoning-energy bolt-casting dark elven wizard? I assure you that it would be a *much* worse situation than this ogre tension room.


I think the dive unintentionally created
a fatal situation


The dive created it? Note that an ogre tension room with an ogre wizard could have been generated on ID 6 or 7 as well! The situation has nothing to do with having to descend deeper.
Also, let me clarify that I made the escape plunges already having explored most of the dungeon levels, so not much was lost because of this.

[Silfir]

We're not the ones with the lucky spellbook of Divine Wrath or half-decent equipment! We're the ones being raped by the RNG right now, so before you members of other leagues try to belittle our playing style, remember that this might happen all the more to you later. I don't think any of the guys who already played in our league did anything but play to the best of his or her abilities.

Just you wait - the League of Air shall shame your feeble attempts!

[M_bowwarrior]

We're the ones being raped by the RNG right now...

sorry, but who is RNG ? or what is RNG ?

[gut]

reich:
> To fight a horde of poisonous tarantulas and the
> summoning-energy bolt-casting dark elven wizard?

Stumbling block... or stepping stone? A dark elven
wizard, on ID:6 is an opportunity, not a death trap.
It is not just the type of monster, that causes it to
be dangerous, it is also the level of the monster.
That's what makes the SMC so dangerous. Even
lowly rats can kill you, if they are high level.

A monster that can be a nightmare on ID:9, may
be a pushover on ID:6. The opposite is also true,
that ID:6 'easy' kill, can easily be a killer on ID:9.

Silfir:
> so before you members of other leagues try to
> belittle our playing style

I wasn't going out of my way to belittle anyones
playing style. I was trying to avoid the introduction
of save-scumming into the game. The RNG gave
your league a tough way to go, anyone can see
that. However, I think the theory that 'if the RNG is
mean to you, your whole league gets a do-over', is
just silly.

I think the 'best case scenario' now, is if someone
just finds a way through the ogres.

[Silfir]

I was on a bit of a non-sequitur there, gut, sorry. The points you made are fine and deserve consideration. I was referring to the people saying we dived down too quickly. I wasn't meaning to sound too harsh, but whether we dived down too quickly or not, whether we played well or not, doesn't really enter into the discussion. There's no reason why having bad luck should cause the whole league to collapse. The only unknown is reich's fate after making the decision to dive down instead of fighting the dark elven wizard and his minions. If any one of us survives the situation, he's gone, if neither does, we'll have to consider this further.

EDIT: M_bowwarrior, RNG refers to the Random Number Generator, or Random Number God, the force within our PCs that determines the fate of our ADOM characters.

[reich]

A dark elven
wizard, on ID:6 is an opportunity, not a death trap.

An opportunity to what? He doesn't give you thousands of xp points, does he? Poison resistance? Such a big deal, especially with that Slow Poison spell? This would be a good point if we were at a loss now due to poison attacks and not brute force ogres.

EDIT: killing him could be very troublesome. He probably summons monsters faster than I could kill them. Running low on ammo. Cumulative effects of many poison-bites. From my standpoint, it wasn't worth it.

I repeat, the dark elven wizard has nothing to do with the current situation.

[Grey]

There's no point starting an argument here folks. All opinions are taken into account, but ultimately I'm the only one with a vote here. You can direct all your whinings to a brick wall after I decide (should I have to decide) :P

EDIT: Besides, it really is irrelevant - League of Fire will burn you all away!

[gut]

Silfir:
> whether we dived down too quickly or not, whether we played well
> or not, doesn't really enter into the discussion.

To my eyes, it had to enter the discussion, to avoid a save scum.
Allow me to quote option #3 fully. The option that all Air League
posts were (are still?) favoring.

"3.) Everyone is resurrected and reich retakes his turn before
the ogres, since the unwinnable situation was brought about purely
by bad luck that he suffered (as can be seen from his post he was
forced to flee down the stairs several times to escape death)."

"Everyone is resurrected."
To me translates to:
"We shall save scum."

and

"The unwinnable situation was brought about purely by bad luck that
he suffered."
To me translates to:
"There was no fault in the play strategy, only the RNG was to blame.
Therefore, the save scum is OK."

To put it bluntly, I simply detest option #3 because it is a
save scum. I don't like to point out flaws in others strategies
(nobody comes off as a nice guy by doing that), but save scumming
is cheating. To avoid setting a save scum situation, I felt like
I should point out, that maybe 'player error' played a part in the
situation, not just bad luck.

Think of how other players would be tempted, if the whole Air League
was to get a 'resurrection'. They would be sitting at their computer,
saying "That blasted gorgon petrified me, and it wasn't even in my
line of sight! That's completely unfair, I'm reloading the save file!
After all, the Air League did it, so why can't I?" If we start doing
that, there will be no end to it.


To further make myself look like I'm unfairly criticizing:

gut:
>> A dark elven wizard, on ID:6 is an opportunity, not a death trap.

reich:
> An opportunity to what? He doesn't give you thousands of xp points,
> does he? Poison resistance? Such a big deal, especially with that
> Slow Poison spell?

Obviously an opportunity for poison resistance. If poison resistance
is no big deal (due to having the Slow Poison spell), then why be
afraid of the spiders? Early-game poison resistance is very valuable,
regardless of your spell list. I think that having that spell, would
have helped you survive that fight, and pick up a valuable resistance.

The reason I pointed out the POSSIBILITY of this being a questionable
strategy, was to avoid a save scum, not to criticize you. I can't make
any guarantees, I may have died in that situation, using my strategy.
There is no way to know for sure. I won't criticize any other play,
by any players (it's not worth it). If we start save scumming though,
mark my words, all leagues will wind up retrieving the Sceptre.

[Subconscious]

I agree with gut. Lets just wait and see if someone passes the ogres and such.. It cant be impossible.
OR if everyone dies, lets decide about it then and not now, dont you think?

[Timpak]

gut actually made some good points, I've never thought about the save-scumming comparisons, mostly because I have _NEVER_ save scummed in adom except for when I save most my high level chars before final descent to try on fun stuff later on, like destroying dwarftown nude or something like that. I must be one of the few players that never save-scummed in adom, might be because the very first computer game I played was nethack, I was 6 years old and I loved it. That was back in the early 90s.

And a part of the problem with spiders ain't that they give poison, it is that they hit hard and many times, especially tarantulas.

OOT:

I started a game with random race priest to train before the next league, I found three spellbooks of earthquake before I even hit clvl 5 haha. Imagine if that were the case for the hurthling priest all leagues play.

[Maul]

As the Arena Master, I'd not hesitate to throw Reich right out of the league if he would be the one who led us in the mess. But we are humans who have a big fault: we have compassion (sort of). Heh heh.

The spiders thing, a dark elf wizard would eventually have to recover from massive summoning, but by then the spiders will have killed you. Poison is one thing, being a weak piece of crap who couldn't kill an elven child without risking injury is another. Anyways, the spectators want to see someone become the weakest link and be thrown to the wolves - let's just roleplay a bit... never thought of that? Or, as gut said, ditch the 3rd option anyway. Or, should the third option be chosen, make a brand new character just for that. Since the different leagues don't compete with each other according to the written rules nobody cares if the other league uses a different character, right? Or do I misunderstand something?

[Ars]

Wasn't it decided in the rules that if someone gets to a situation that nobody can be handle, he falls out and the rest continue from the savefile she/he got?

[Maul]

Yes, but now some people are trying to defend Reich because he didn't want it. It's certainly a more disillusioning way to be thrown out than simple old dying.

[Ars]

You go out fighting that way too - after everyone else has died, Reich tries it out (and wins?).

[FantomFang]

Before I start, I'd just like to comment that there seems to be something wrong with the log-in page. I can't successfully type in my password with it there for some odd reason, no matter how many times i came to the page, or however many times i refreshed it. The log-in box in the topright corner works fine though.

Ok...on the topic of the Air League, I believe that we should simply follow the rules of the competition as they were stated. Bad luck or no, ADOM is ADOM, and you should have to abide by what happens in the framework of the rules already created. Of course, if your league ends rather quickly, there is nothing to stop you from doing a new one yourself, just for fun, while the other leagues work on finishing. On the other hand, I don't really see anything grossly wrong with the resurrection, besides the save-scumming issue. As an ADOM player, I dislike its connotation of save scumming, but as a participant in this "tourney", I don't see how it would give an unfair advantage to the members of that league, or others. The only possible "advantage" i see being gained is some foreknowledge on the identity of items, and because it is league wide, might only disadvantage the other leagues in head-to-head competition, albeit slightly.

All in all, even though it really is not my choice, I would prefer to abide by the unwinnable situation rule we established earlier. Just my 2 cents.

PS. It feels sooooo odd typing long messages on a laptop as compared to a desktop...Also, damn you laptop for no number pad, now I have to go figure out how to use the Fn command for ADOM =P

EDIT: Anyone know how to change what the time says for you individually when you're on these forums? It's a little disconcerting for my to see 9ish PM when it is only 4:25 where I am (CST, Oklahoma, USA, wooo)

[Maul]

*slaps head* You win, sir.

[Nezur]

Anyone know how to change what the time says for you individually when you're on these forums? It's a little disconcerting for my to see 9ish PM when it is only 4:25 where I am (CST, Oklahoma, USA, wooo)

1. Click "User CP".
2. Go to "Edit options".
3. Scroll down to "Date & Time Options".

[Grey]

Wow, big well done to M_Bowwarrior - took a lot of effort obviously but you did well to get through it.

[gut]

M_bowwarrior, all I can say is... Wow! That
is so cool, to read:

> I finish them !

Shortly followed by:

> maybe a divine help ? so, lets search in the
> keybinding the correct button to do it

That just amazes me. You muscled your way through,
what I thought, was a hopeless situation, and you
didn't even use devine help for the biggest part.
Just plain cool : )

[reich]

Bravo M_Bowwarior! Thanks to you the league of air is back on track! You didn't even bother to mention the killing of that ogre magus in the report.:D

[M_bowwarrior]

Bravo M_Bowwarior! Thanks to you the league of air is back on track! You didn't even bother to mention the killing of that ogre magus in the report.:D


after killing almost everybody (there is two ogre alive) it's clear no ? ther is "just" two ogre alive, so the ogre magnus is dead :rolleyes:

finally, it's a level with just a tension room, a necromancer, and a dark elven....:eek:

[vogonpoet]

Well I am disappointed and frankly unsurprised to hear that the excellent rules for this game were called into question at such an early stage in the game.

Come on people, this is not chess, or some other limited game which can be played perfectly. It is ADOM. The greatest game of chance you need no money to buy.

/The RNG is as the RNG does.
//That is all.

[reich]

How many of you use DOSBox? It has a feature to record the output as avi files, which can be then posted on YouTube.

If a participant recorded his turn in our challange, it could have several advantages:
- the next person would have full information on the course of the game
- it would be fun to watch by others
- and it would assure that no foul play was commited during the round

it's not obligatory, but maybe the next people to go will consider this idea.

[gut]

reich:
> How many of you use DOSBox? It has a feature to
> record the output as avi files

I think that Demo Workshop works better in many
ways. It produces VERY small video files. I once
tried to record an entire 'speed game' of ADOM,
and the resulting video file was only 10 MB. That
covered about 6 1/2 hours of video! (The game
ultimately crashed after killing the AKW).

The produced video can be an .exe file (veiwable
for everyone), or a .rec file (veiwable only for
those who have the Demo Workshop program). The
.rec files have the benefit of allowing the
video to be paused, rewound, fast forwarded and
so on, as opposed to the .exe file, which does not.

I actually thought about recording my turn with
Demo Workshop, and posting it. I like to update
my game report as I play though, so that means
I take many breaks in play, to type. I would
have had to remember to pause the recording,
everytime I switched, to avoid having to edit
out the pauses later.

I finally decided to skip it though, as I really
didn't think anyone would want to watch it. If
your interested in watching, I'll record the next
one, and stick it up on a file hosting site. I
will post it as both .rec and .exe files, for
those who have Demo Workshop, and those who don't.


Soirana:
> First - I do not understand all bubbling about one
> league's hurthling being better than others. If
> that could ever matter...

It doesn't matter. There is no logic to it whatsoever.
Having said that, I would gladly swap a point of Kenny's
St for a point of Ap, so that 'Hootchy' Fire League chick
would lose the bragging rights : )

> 2444 gold pieces [24s]
> probably should be thrown away to cut weight issues

I had thought about that myself. I was wondering if the
possibility of finding an early girdle of greed would
benefit more. With a blessed girdle of greed, plus a
nice load of gold, one could improve their carrying
cappacity quite a bit. Of course a girdle of carrying
would make it obsolete though.

I am a fan of increasing St to 18 with the 'strained!'
status, so extra early-game weight doesn't bother me.
You can always drop a bunch of junk on the fly, with
the 'Ctrl d' command, to make a quick get-away. I would
think that gold should be kept, until St reaches 18.
After that, if one has found no girdle of greed, I would
say drop it, because you can always get more.

[Ars]

I play with winbeta, and when it's windowed so I can write the report at the same time and look to guidebook if necessary - that makes recording it a bit unpractical. Though if I made a video, I wouldn't need to write reports...

And gut, depending on your playing speed (if it's too slow reading reports is nicer), a video would in fact be quite welcome. If we were in different leagues though I wouldn't watch one. It isn't that much more complicated than reading reports, and contains more info than a report. Long, hastily written reports are a pain to read, though I'm not saying your reports are like that.

[Nezur]

Is it possible to find herbs in the ID?

[Baranor]

No, woot, no abuse!

[gut]

Ars:
> I play with winbeta, and when it's windowed
> so I can write the report at the same time
> and look to guidebook if necessary

That's my style also.

> that makes recording it a bit unpractical.

I would have to give up the use of winbeta,
and guidebook, but I can take one for the
team : ) I would still type out a game report
though, it would be discourteous to expect the
next player to watch a video, that could easily
last over an hour.

I wonder if it takes that long to read one
of my game reports : ) Maybe I'll be a bit more
brief with the next one.

Nezur:
> Is it possible to find herbs in the ID?

Unfortunately, no. However, if one is lucky,
they may find an herb seed.


Goodness, what progress the Earth League
has made recently! Slower diving looks to
be paying off rather nicely.

Moloch:
> Kill an orc for knife and "bone wand" -
> which puts us to burdened!

That was hilarious, I laughed my head off!


Evil Knievel:
> She found the spellbook "Disarm Trap"

A sweet find! That alone will save hordes
of equipment destruction, and HP. Wish
we had one of those in the Water League : )

> She found an open Viper pit, went along and finally
> found the pit vipers. They poisoned her badly

Good job in surviving a tough fight.
Prayers are easy enough to regain.


PeanutGod:
> Rust Monster decided to try and hump my leg.

They won't hump your leg in the dark.
Strangly enough : )

> encountered a cave lion,

You didn't mercilessly slaughter him?! Oh man,
if that had been me, I would have kicked it to
death while it struggled helplessly, picked
t's corpse up, equipped it in my missile slot,
flung it into a few walls, walked over to it's
corpse and 'h'andled it in disrespectful ways
until it became 'cursed', then ate it for good
measure. To each his own, I guess.


Oliphaunt:
> then the rust monster (after disarming)

You can kill them without disarming, they
aren't like the jellies.

[Molach]

It might be possible to find anything on I:66, right? Remember reading that someone found an altar there, and that was proof that is was not part of the ID.

You could make herbs with holy water, and you can find herb seeds, and priests have gardening skill. So yeah, it is possible to find them.

[Baranor]

You can certainly create herbs if you want. That's totally fine. I thought he was talking about randomly encountering herbs which will only happen on ID:66, but herbs on ID:66 would be virtually useless since you wouldn't be able to stay there long enough to abuse them. The biggest thing that might happen is gaining stomatafilia, but realistically hunger should not be a problem with all the creatures in the ID.

[Grey]

Creating herbs anywhere won't help you much. The best you could do is if one person descends at the start of their turn, plants and farms, and then the next guy spends most of his turn farming and then descends near the end. You'd need the luck of a herb seed, and would need high gardening to make it work, and then need lots of holy water on top to make an additional 2 squares. And you've gotta hope that an unbeatable monsters doesn't show up that you have to run away from.

As for I66, yeah it's a special level, but no one will make it that far anyway. Plus it's hugely corrupting.

[vogonpoet]

Given the current game format, I would eat that herb seed, then eat a rat corpse in order to puke it out uselessly onto the floor, wipe my face, and continue.

[Ars]

I would have to give up the use of winbeta,
and guidebook, but I can take one for the
team : ) I would still type out a game report
though, it would be discourteous to expect the
next player to watch a video, that could easily
last over an hour.Hmm, probably not necessary to make the vid if it's so long... I've just always thought that most people play ADOM much faster than I, because my victories have 10 times more saves than most people... Though if we end up being the final 2 in water, it might be worth watching. :)

[Grey]

I know with a video recorder I used previously it auto-skipped after a certain number of seconds of inactivity when recording, so you specify it to skip after 1 seconds and the whole thing would run smooth as hell without any pauses. (though of course you could put in individual pauses for screen mssages etc)

[Baranor]

One thing that I was thinking about was possible having people record their section of the game and then splice it together into a long video of everyones path. So you could have an Air, Water, Fire, and Earth video posted. I think it could be very cool to watch how each guild did things. We are probably too late for this round, but if we continue to do it again, we might be able to do it the next time.

[Shadow_2014]

... you specify it to skip after 1 seconds and the whole thing would run smooth as hell without any pauses.

Is it possible to make the skip less than one second, or does it not do fractions? I think that 0.5 or so would be best, and you don't really even need to bother having it stop for messages. I think it would be easy to get what's going on just by watching the character.


So you could have an Air, Water, Fire, and Earth video posted. I think it could be very cool to watch how each guild did things.

I would definitely be into watching something like that. I say you go for it next time. It might not work as well in reality as it does in theory, but it would still be worth experimenting with.

[FantomFang]

Where would one find Demo Workshop btw? I tried doing a google search for it, but all I saw was a bunch of crap unrelated to that application. Is there a specific site that you can give us, or do I just have to search through pages and pages of google searches? Or is there a way to better refine the search?

[Nezur]

http://www.p1.com/P1DOSProductsPage.htm#DemoWorkshop

[gut]

Hey, it looks like they have a new version out, cool!
I was still using V1.1.

[vogonpoet]

Not much movement on the Weakest Link eh? There was me thinking the weekend would be a hot bed of ADOM activity. I guess everyone younger than me is busy partying Fri/Sat/Sun.... *sigh*

/twiddles thumbs
//at least there's Eurovision later
///Spain FTW???

[Grey]

Commiserations to JSuvanto on getting killed 97 moves from the end of his turn... But it does mean we nicely have one death in each round - hurrah for symmetry! One less even thing though is that it looks like inactive players will be kicked out of the Earth and Fire leagues, which is a little unfair on the Water and Air leagues that have a full compliment of active participants. Sorry guys, not really anything I can do to even things out there.

[M_bowwarrior]

Commiserations to JSuvanto on getting killed 97 moves from the end of his turn... But it does mean we nicely have one death in each round - hurrah for symmetry! One less even thing though is that it looks like inactive players will be kicked out of the Earth and Fire leagues, which is a little unfair on the Water and Air leagues that have a full compliment of active participants. Sorry guys, not really anything I can do to even things out there.


hehe ! ! we have two dead players.... we are in the way to win the challenge ! (ah ? it's not the final aim ? :cool:)

[Silfir]

Well, now it's three... Our League of Air should receive the "buttwhore of the RNG" award.

[Grey]

You'll be competing with the league of Earth there, Silfir. And learn to count - you have 4 players left! With regards to the slings vs rocks discussion you had, I should point out that hurthlings can marks in slings far faster than in rocks (I think it's something like 1/3 less marks needed) so in the long run it is far better to have slings high, especially if you find some decent slings.

And ewolf, dear god! You got to the end of your turns and kept playing?! And then died! You could have saved and been victorious, leaving the next players to hopefully get through the mess.

[ewolf]

I couldn't just save because I didn't descend a level. If I had killed the dark elven priestess (or whatever it was), I would have well over 2100 turns before I descended.

[Grey]

Ah, what a shame... Too wrapped up in spiders to find the staircase I presume?

[M_bowwarrior]

a very interesting position... who want to try ? :eek: try the link to see everything

just have a look of my turn... a bad bad luck is against our team, the second tension room full of garbage on the road of the outside

[Nezur]

The requirement to descend at least once in your turn might be too harsh. Perhaps next time it could be reduced to one every two turns.

[reich]

League of Air in full glory! Do I see right? Do we really have *no* melee weapon left?:eek:


The requirement to descend at least once in your turn might be too harsh. Perhaps next time it could be reduced to one every two turns.

It looks like most players actually descend more than one level on their turn. The requirement keeps the game going without excessive 'camping'.

[M_bowwarrior]

League of Air in full glory! Do I see right? Do we really have *no* melee weapon left?:eek:

yep, and no shield, and no cap... and a cooking set on the floor between rusts monsters, but we need to pass here later ;)

[Grey]

Holy crap! Okay Silfir, I admit it - your league is the RNG's dirty little bitch.

[PeanutGod]

Silfir, our League of Earth is trying its best to give you a running for the 'Worst League Ever'. Its definately turning out to be one hell of a disappointment. Divine Key twice.....a bloody spear and no offensive spells at all. It's turning into one hell of a dangerous time, and we've had 3 deaths so far. We'll catch you up sure enough! :(

[gut]

What the Air League lacks in luck, they make up for with perserverance.
They just keep dying, and dying, and dying : D

[FantomFang]

man gut, you are REALLY giving everyone ammo. You better not die! =)
Else you're gonna be burned to a crisp, I say.

[reich]

What the Air League lacks in luck, they make up for with perserverance.
They just keep dying, and dying, and dying : D

last two players made it. Silfir, if you survive this round you will be god.

[gut]

I know my death isn't far, and when it comes, it's going to
be a free for all : ) I can (will) take it though, it'll be fun
to hear all the abuse. If I wasn't a masochist, I wouldn't be
playing ADOM anyway, right?

Tough luck for the Earth League, running into a red baby
dragon. That's the only kind that does see in the dark. The
lightning lizard wouldn't have though, but with ~20 HP's
left, chances were slim anyway.

[Grey]

Bwahaha, so many deaths :) Water league is lagging behind on that front though - mostly because they've not finished their first round yet. Earth league is now extremely close to having competitive tactics opened up, not that they really need anything to increase their mortality rate...

[M_bowwarrior]

just because here lots of adom players come, have a look of here... and complete please ;) (just click on the small arrow to arrive at the complete post.)

I've created an account on google maps in order to create a map with location of adom & jade players.
please complete it

[gut]

I was recently thinking, about what I find notable,
regarding each of the respective Leagues. What?! You
think I'm going to turn this into a shot at the Fire
League, don't you? Well, I'll have you know that I
most certainly wasn't! I mean, the idea! You know
what? Just because you were all thinking that, I do
believe I WILL now work in a shot at the Fire League,
just for kicks : )


-----TALENT-------

How about, 'which team has the most talent'? I would
have to give that distinction to... the Earth League.
Surprised you there, didn't I, you thought I was going
to say Water League. While we do have talent to spare,
I just don't think we have the MOST talent.

Talent is a hard thing to judge in ADOM. This game isn't
chess, where one can just ask 'what's your elo?". One
has to often use vague posts as a measuring stick, and
try to get an estimate by reading between the lines. For
it would be considered crass to ask 'So how good would
you say you are?"

So, just going by posts I have seen, reading some forums.
I would guess Molach, Nezur, PeanutGod, and Oliphaunt,
to all be quite experienced players. Probably there are
more, and I'm just not remembering. I think that's enough
to take the prize.


----BAD LUCK------

This is the distinction of the Air League. The RNG hates
them, and even I have come to admit it. We have all had
SOME problems, but not on an eternal, League-wide basis.
I tried to chalk it up to player error, but that just
can't be the whole story, the RNG just despises them.

One or more of the Air League members, have obviously upset
the RNG. Perhaps an Air League'er just recently won a narrow
victory, maybe someone found a wish in the same room with
Khelly, or maybe they just 'cussed the RNG, and thought they
could get away with it. Regardless of how it came about, I've
been laughing my 'guts' out at every misfortune : )

-----MOST AMUSING NOISES WHEN THEY DIE------

Hands down, the Fire League'ers make the most amusing noises
when they die. Maybe they don't have the most deaths, and
maybe they don't have the most gruesome ones either, but
there's nothing quite like the agonized wail of a Fire League
death, to really make me smile.
------------------------------------------------


That brings us to the Water League. Clearly it is the best,
but to say THAT is it's distinction, could be considered
by some to be a bit 'show-offy'. Besides, just saying 'best',
misses the finer points of our (girl?) Kenny. To think that
(she?) Kenny has already slain the likes of a Giant Rust
monster, and a high level Dark Elven Lord! Not to mention
plowing through spider factories, and Dark Elven Wizards,
like they weren't even there!

So what distinction to give the Water League? I've thought
long and hard on this (over three minutes, which sets a
personal record for me!), and I know I can't say 'class',
because I shot the 'miss congeniality' award in the head
on day one. Perhaps 'style'? No, killing monsters while
cowering in the dark, doesn't ring of style, does it? How
about 'power'? Nahh, there are other Leagues that are more
powerful than the Water League was, at that level.

What then is the distinction?

-----VERSATILITY---------

Versatility. Yep, it's as simple as that. The Water League
sports the longest/best spell list, the highest shield rating,
highest overall stats, highest missile damage, and is also
quite respectable in melee to boot. I attribute this to the
Water League'ers ability to NOT DIE! (Our only death, was a
fellow, who had never played a hurthling before.)

With many players having their own distinctive input on our
(girl?) PC, we have a very well rounded character. We have
the ability now, to face down any monster that dares cross
our path. In the end, all shall know. Water League rules!


If some of the above strikes you as more 'propaganda' than
truth, well... there may be a reason for that : )

[Grey]

I think the thing that Water league has above others is PV. The Immune to Pain tree turned out to be a wise choice early on, with other leagues quick to copy it (though many unsuccessfully due to poor organisation). This was coupled with some very good equipment finds to make them untouchable by monsters that have given some other leagues major headaches (not Fire I will point out). However these equipment finds have come at a very major price - with the first round not yet finished they are on I21, far ahead of any of the other leagues. With such a supposedly versatile and strong character, why did they plummet into the depths of infinity so quickly? Stupidity, that's why. Overconfidence. And that will be their undoing.

The Water league has one very major weakness at its heart. At its guts you might say. Yes, it is that slimy man who so vocally decries his league's strengths that its true weakness lies. You see whilst he himself plays like a cowardly cretin, creeping in darkness and running from anything that could ever threat him, he feeds his followers with manipulating lies to fill their heads with bravado and false pride. Thus they leap from cliffs at his bidding, believing they cannot be hurt. But the ground is steadily rising before them, and the league of water will soon be turned into a lake of blood. He himself hopes his fall will be cushioned by the mound of corpses left by others, but make no mistke - he will find himself floundering with his companions all dead around him.

This man (if you could even call him a man!) is nothing more than a snake. I have it on good word that he engages in lechery and indecent exposure in public, and that through a large farm in the north he collects the tears of baby seals that he may bath in them, believing it will give him eternal life. I say that for the good of the forums - nay, the good of humanity - he must be brought to justice, and his forked tongue cut out before it does more harm to ADOMers across the world!

The League of Fire on the other hand... Where can I begin on such a glorious, and above all honourable and noble group of players? Of course, we have had our misfortunes, sufferings that we have bravely endured. riktikticheck met a most unfortunate death at the begining - snatched of life before he could even begin his adventure aproper. I put this down to witchcraft and devil worship on the part of the most malign gut and his evil cult of Water... However I took up the reins and through great force of will I denied the devil and his hated servant gut to destroy our chances. Through valour and noble strength I perservered, and with thought only of establishing a great beginning for my wondrous comrades I slowly and carefully built our character up. Since then we rose from strength to strength, until the most terrible demise of the esteemed vogonpoet, who will be long remembered in our hearts. He was assaulted by servants of the fiend gut, and though they could not harm his noble form themselves their bewitchment caused him to turn his magic on himself! I hear the sorrow in your hearts at this tale - how damnable that accursed gut is for bringing such destruction on the league of Fire! Yet in doing so he has only hardened our resolve, and has proved that the only thing that can harm us is our own unbeatable strength. We will be more cautious in future. The flames of our resolve have been stoked, and from henceforth our hearts will burn with a steady ambition - our pure and holy goal being to stamp out the Water league and all the corrupt influences of its demon leader (if you could even call him a man!)

[Shadow_2014]

Eloquent...

[Soirana]

mmmm...... you, guys, have found downloadable hallucinogen, right?

[Molach]

Just made the leagues into a paper-scissor-rock scheme. This was jut done considering physical aspects of the various materials the leagues are made of, not by considering how it has played out.

Earth + Air = Equal.
Earth + Fire = Fire will merely bake the earth, while earth can smother out the fire. Earth beats fire.
Earth + Water = Water will turn earth into shapeless, shameless mud. Water beats earth.

Air + Water = Oh look, pretty clouds. Air can absorb gaseous H2O, scattering it in the form of clouds. I mean, how dangerous is a cloud? I guess Air beats water
Air + Fire = Flames will burn the O2 in the air, possibly creating a firestorm in the process. Fire beats Air

Water + Fire = This is a tie. The fire can evaporate water, but water can put out a fire. Whichever is the mightiest, wins. So surprisingly, nothing here.

Conclusion: Earth beats Fire which beats Air which beats water which beats Earth again.

Corollary: Friendly group are Earth + Air (Can create a sandstorm) and Water + Fire (Hot jet of steam).

Now, does this work out with how it has played out?

And I have played a little Angband (got a win too), and there there is an eatable mushroom which can cause hallucinations. So I am excused.

[Silfir]

You guys are hilarious. Soirana must be right - Send me the URL of the stuff you're using.

Grey, the weapon skill training discount for hurthling applies to both thrown rocks and slings, by the by.

(THE NITPICKER STRIKES AGAIN)

Also, reports of my divinity have been slightly overexaggerated.

[Orbic]

Hey. Grey. Do mind the step when you get down from there :)

[Molach]

Serious question this time.

What if:
League of mud - has four players, A, B, C and E (don't ask what happened to D)
During the "friendly" non-chaos round, A ended his turn in a bad situation. By accident, let us assume.
B, C and E die horribly, and wait in glee for A to fail his turn, which would put him out of the league, and B would then restart the last save before A.

However, A manages the impossible, and makes a valid turn.

Now what?

I assume A qualified for the league of the lump of gelee royal by this spectacular show of skill, but who is out?

Is it B and C, the first to die? E then becomes part of the lumpy league because he had a lucky place in the turn order?

Or do the 3 others keep playing after A's recent save to determine the best of them? A leaves the league and awaits for the lump league to start up?

[Silfir]

If you ask me, the one of B, C and E who managed to survive the longest in turns should get second place.

[vogonpoet]

Nice point Molach. I suggest a playoff - same rules as previous, play starts where you suggest, after player A's victorious turn, but with 1000 turn limit to speed things up - no point dragging out a decision for second place, and 2000 turns is for wimps.

/says guy who died in less than 500 turns.

[Ars]

The one with the highest score of them, I'd say.

[vogonpoet]

That kinda makes sense Ars, but if people know thats the rule, and they also know their league is in dire straights, they could use their turns to increase their score (increasing piety perhaps?), and then die near the end, thus beating the players who died more honestly trying to get out of the difficult position. Its hard to abuse the Ars rule, but probably possible.

[Silfir]

Not the highest score. The highest number of turns. Score is an arbitrary number - this is a survival challenge.

[Grey]

I definitely agree on highest number of turns. It fits in with what the challenge is all about. However, this is admittedly also open to abuse.

In fact, when it comes to the league of Mana I suggest that the order of play is based on number of turns rather than random - whoever lasts longest gets to go first etc (or perhaps get to choose which position he wants to be in first?). This would partly mean the whole group's effort behind the char would count a little in their ranking, as well as the player's own skill at the end. Would also add an extra consideration to competitive play - do you ruin the game for others in the league to help secure yourself a place in the final, or be as constructive as possible, secure in the knowledge that you'll get into the final anyway and want to be in a better position for it?

[Silfir]

However, this is admittedly also open to abuse.

What is admittedly open to abuse, for instance in the situation we currently have in the Air League, is a situation where you could theoretically just wait for as many turns as you like, but have no chance to advance to the next level. People would just wait 1500 turns or so praying, and then try, aiming to die as late as possible. You can't really blame them for that because, well, spending 1500 turns praying is a legitimate method to improve chances for survival.

Maybe the best thing to gauge success with is not score, not number of turns, but experience. Score can go down and up for all kinds of silly reasons, but experience can only increase, by killing monsters. And HERE I'd say that he who managed to take down more (and more powerful) monsters before his death would probably somehow earn his spot more than the others as well (as in "If I know I have to die, I'll try and kick as much ass I can beforehand!"). I mean, you expect gladiators in the Arena to go down with a boom, right? Much harder to abuse as well - players (Let's take B) can decide to either try the (seemingly?) impossible, OR figure out how to kill as many enemies as possible, betting their money on that neither C nor E survive - Whether A survives or not does not matter in that case.

Another way: Distance to down staircase. Dead players would reveal the dungeon map and note how far away from the down staircase they were, either in squares still left to walk or squares in total (depending on the existence of either a wand of digging or a digging spell or a pickaxe). The reasoning behind this is that in dangerous situations that are the same for all players, the major challenge is to get to the down staircase alive. So people will probably die on the way there. The question is then, who got closest? This criterion is near immune to abuse. Final screenshots of the dungeon map should be saved by everyone to show after all players except A have died and the runner-up has to be determined.

Oh, and another, overriding rule: The FIRST thing that should be taken into account is the dungeon level reached. If a player managed to survive the dangerous situation within 700 turns, and then dies, say, on turn 1000 in the NEXT level to a freak accident, he deserves the second spot for the finals a lot more than the one who just waited for 1900 turns on the old level and then died horribly while still there, regardless of what other criterion we decide on.

There are flaws with every one of these methods, sadly. Debate which one you think is best. I'd say that dungeon level reached should decide first in any case, and if that is the same across all players, either the distance to the down staircase or experience should determine the runner-up.

EDIT: And about the placement for the league of Mana: The order should not be decided by the number of turns, but the dungeon level that the finalists reached. This would actually encourage two players that are left within their leagues to cooperate well so they could go as far as possible. I simply think awesome prowess is not shown by the ability of players to wait around praying for piety, but how far they advance in the gruesome depths of infinity.

[Grey]

Hmm, very well - in the situation where the victor is clear but several runners-up died in the same round (not just in our current situation, but could easily happen when down to 3 players) then the second place will be chosen on the following order:

1. ID depth reached
2. Experience gained
3. Turns survived (if by some chance xp gained is the same - for instance they all die without killing anything)

League of Mana participants will have their order determined in the same way - the 4 champions will have the first 4 places, whilst the runners up have the last 4 places. I might change my mind later of course.

This means that everyone has to please post these bloody details when they die - many are missing at the moment (in particular xps). The information should be on your high score list at all times if you didn't make an flg, so unless your 100th place is more awesome than the challenge entry you can easily recover this data.

One further thought, that I won't decide on until later - should the chaos gate be open from the very start of the league of mana?

[Silfir]

Save the flg - I know my 100th place requires something like 20500 points on my main ADOM machine, and I imagine it's going to be the same with some (who am I kidding, most) of you.

EDIT: Also, I can fully get behind that particular order, if you need votes. I think it's sensible, because it encourages no one to just look at the turns once they know they are doomed.

[reich]

Is the league of mana going to continue with the most succesful of the remaining leagues?

[Silfir]

Certainly. But what about the "remaining"? All the leagues are still in progress!

[M_bowwarrior]

just an academic question : is someone have an idea to make the air league out of the mess ?

here is the entire subject... fell free to help us...

[reich]

Certainly. But what about the "remaining"? All the leagues are still in progress!

The mana league will be formed when the last player dies. Then, will a new game be started with a new character, or the league will continue where the league, which made it the farthest, left off?

[Soirana]

someone have an idea to make the air league out of the mess ?

technically you can try isolate rust babies in smaller groups (just use some corners and doors) deal with them via rocks and bypass remains.
iirc, rust monsters at least do not pick stuff and do not deal masses of damage (at least regular ones)
Also using coward+<1/3hp move discount could pay off but it is extremely risky.

practically i guess that is impossible.

[FantomFang]

I imagine a new character will be created for the purpose, or a restart of the original character specifically for the Mana league.

About the Air league, you could always hope the RNG spawns you with a monster who will drop a weapon/book or w/e to help you fight the rust monsters before the end of your turn. Maybe you can do decent damage wielding something other than a weapon? I don't have much experience with it myself, though.

[Soirana]

About the Air league, you could always hope the RNG spawns you with a monster who will drop a weapon/book or w/e to help you fight the rust monsters before the end of your turn.

problem is heap of rust monsters cut down monster generation rate and that tension room looked like a big one.
fresh monsters are somewhat more likely be generated distantly from pc (probably in downstair area).

[FantomFang]

Hope springs eternal? =)

[Siriah]

It's fun watching this, it's such an awesomely mean challenge. So the Chaos gates are about to open for some leagues? It looks like it won't be necessary for Air, the RNG is trouble enough there :p First the thing with the Ogres (amazing victory by the way), and now facing a herd of rust monsters with no weapons.

My suggestion is to wield a rock and bash the rust monsters' skulls in with it. Even if it doesn't work, it's stylish.

[Grey]

I'm sorely tempted to spell out the best advice for the Air guys, but I don't think it's fair to help any individual out. Besides it will give me satisfaction later after I die to go back to it and do it myself. (Edit: And Siriah's suggestion is exactly what I was thinking - should work well enough with hit-run-heal tactics. The large rustie can be a nuisance, but once you've taken a good portion down he can be circumvented.)

As for the League of Mana, a new random priest will be made and the winners will play with it.

[vogonpoet]

The Depth-Exp-Turns route sounds like nice speedy solution to tie-breaks and deciding on the playing orders of the Mana League... and I think your Chaos gate should remain closed at first for Mana League, otherwise the whole thing will likely be fairly short, and therefore less entertaining for suicidal spectators like myself.

[M_bowwarrior]

just to understand, but is "competitive play" and 'chaos gate' are synonims for you ?

[Maul]

So. Earth is short of competitors. Air is about to fail against the RNG's superior force. Fire is a load of losers. (Nah... but I mean :)) And Water still kicks infinite ass. Looks interesting.

[gut]

The seal tears won't yield longer life, anybody knows THAT.
It's just that they make my scales shine like nothing else can : )


/\__/\
o o
---
v v

[Siriah]

So Potions of Longevity aren't made of seal tears? The shopkeeper promised they were :(

[DeSt]

Using some stereotypical Evil Genius voice: "Those Earth losers descended half as much in same number of turns? Pathetic..."

:)

[Molach]

You know, if one of our number hadn't bonked some vestal virgins in his last-but-186th life and thus irrevocably cursed the RNG, then we would have found TWICE the number of USEFUL spellbooks as some other clan. Since we, like took our time looking for them. Instead of tripping over them blind in the dark like some other clowns. Mabye that was our fault. If you want to find something, don't look for it.

[gut]

Fortune favors the bold!
...and appearantly the hermaphrodites.

[Grey]

Sorry I was late on signifying the gate being opened on the Earth league, but I don't think you were caring much for competitive tactics anyway Molach.

Really, I can't believe how much the RNG is raping you to pieces. I'm morbidly curious as to what other terrible things await your descent. Meanwhile the bloody Water league is getting even further. I32?! And you're still alive!!! Invis should keep you even safer, you little buggers... But I think when death starts occurring in your league it'll be like a plague taking down many at once.

[FantomFang]

Its not our fault that we rock at not dying!

[gut]

We're half-way to the Sceptre, yeah!
We may get it, without losing one more player.
Maybe.

[Siriah]

Somehow, I think the Arena Grandmaster wouldn't approve of the people in his death trap arena dying of old age. Compared to being killed in a violent bloody way, it's rather anticlimactic (but hilarious). At least Gaia survived, and being 'very old' suits someone named after mother Earth.

[PeanutGod]

Not just Gaia, but now 'Granny Gaia'.

Honestly though, our Earth League has run into some pretty bad luck, although the odd nice thing happens here and there. Maybe next time we should spent a lot more time on the lower levels beefing up, but we just haven't had the luck in finding a decent weapon/spell to help us fend things off. honestly, at times we've jsut been forced down the stairs, rather than facing near certain death. Yet fear not, Granny Gaia will perservere.....

[Maul]

Lolz! I'm afraid deaths will skyrocket with the extra years gained. Never fear, Water will wash away the shame.:D

[Nezur]

Since the maximum amount of turns that can be spent is 2000 can you only spend for example 1 turn and then save? :D

[reich]

Each player gets control of the PC for 2000 turns. During that time they must descend by at least one level - you may go as deep as you like in fact, should you dare, but you must go at least one level deeper. When they have finished they save the game, post the save here along with a report of what's happened, and the next person picks up the save game and continues for 2000 turns.

From this I can assume that you *have to* keep the character alive for those 2000 turns!

[Nezur]

Hmm. Okay. I didn't notice that.

[FantomFang]

You know what would be a funny challenge for the last person alive in this? Having to successfully climb all the way back out =p

[Grey]

Far too easy - if you can get that deep you would only need to go about 10 levels up before everything much weaker than you.

[FantomFang]

True, true...but you never know when something might go wrong =p
Anyways, I don't think the Arena Grandmaster has any interest in Survivors anyways, they're overrated.

[M_bowwarrior]

sniff.... the tricky situation is too a bit hardcore finally... bad day but try all I can.

here everything

[Covenant]

Something came to me last night which worries me a little, regarding the competitive play aspect. I toyed with the idea of just keeping it to myself and employing it, but I decided I'd feel a bit cheap.

Say, with the Chaos gate open, you create a situation such as this



#########
+.......#
#.&@>...#
#.......#
#########


You arrange it in such a way that you're left next to a monster who can see in the dark who could kill you in one hit (whether by reducing your own HP or whatever). And you cast Darkness (before getting to the one hit stage, or obviously, he'd kill you). Then your turn ends.

The next person in line would presumably start up and think 'Oh, what's going on here' and cast 'Light'. In that turn though, the monster would kill them. And anyone else playing. Especially if the stairs were in a more complex position than just one square away. The situation could be made even more complicated by the original player dropping 'red herring' items on the starting square, for the first guy to pick up. And by wasting all the piety and cure spells beforehand. My own thought would be to do that, and stash the cure spellbooks and items on the stairs, so I as the original player could step toward the stairs (I'd have taken note of where they were before casting Darkness, you see), use the items on the ground to heal, kill the monster, then re-learn my heal spells and descend.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the rules, and this type of play wouldn't be allowed. But if it is, and anyone's saying 'Oh, good idea, you shouldn't have posted it' - well, I disagree. Seems a bit against the spirit of things, really. This is why I'm slightly wary of the 'competitive play and profane tactics' aspect.

[Siriah]

Picking up the healing items will take one turn, so you'd die too. Of course if you mean the monster can't see in the dark it's different, but I think you still aren't allowed to withhold information such as "We are next to a monster that can kill us in one hit" even when the Chaos gate is open.

[vogonpoet]

Are we all free now to download the now infamous M_bowwarrior save game to try our hand at running the rusty gauntlet?

As for the Covenant question, I thought full disclosure of current situation was necessary? You can put your PC into any horrendous situation you want, but are not allowed to not tell anyone of that fact.

[Covenant]

You could tell them, but you wouldn't have to tell them exactly where the stairs were, as I understand it. Meaning you'd have the advantage. And I thought you could use healing items from the ground? Regardless, it could still be achieved if you just pick a monster slower than you (so that in the time it'd take you to reach the stairs, you'd have gained a free turn with which to pick up and then use the healing items).

[M_bowwarrior]

Are we all free now to download the now infamous M_bowwarrior save game to try our hand at running the rusty gauntlet?

As for the Covenant question, I thought full disclosure of current situation was necessary? You can put your PC into any horrendous situation you want, but are not allowed to not tell anyone of that fact.

as a "creator" of this save, I said Yes ! because there is no need of it now.

try, and if you do it... congratulation !

[Silfir]

If you ask me, Covenant, the situation you describe is HIGHLY theoretical. If someone were able to set it up JUST LIKE THIS - with a monster that would kill you in one hit, which is also not a trivial thing to find - then I do think you'd deserve the victory in some way.

[Covenant]

If you ask me, Covenant, the situation you describe is HIGHLY theoretical. If someone were able to set it up JUST LIKE THIS - with a monster that would kill you in one hit, which is also not a trivial thing to find - then I do think you'd deserve the victory in some way.

What's theoretical about playing 1800 turns, dropping most of your healing items/books on stairs (and using up castings), then finding a regular monster to beat on you, and healing yourself with first aid or castings or whatever until you're on low enough HP for it to kill you? It could be made even easier by removing armour, etc. It'd take a slight bit of guesswork in terms of how many turns you had left, but Cure Light Wounds or a couple of healing potions, or anything would make it pretty reasonable to do. And if you're careful, the monster could be something such a ghul (do they see in the dark? I'll profess my ignorance at what does and doesn't) which only needs one lucky paralysis hit to ruin your day, even if that initial hit doesn't kill you. Again, the removing all armour strategy would come into play here.

And hell, what if you had a whip? You could do all the hard work yourself, then simply open the door or go find your creature, lure him to the room, and that's that.

The only point I'll concede may be somewhat tricky would be finding a monster that isn't too weak that could see in the dark. And that's only because I have no clue as to how common 'see in the dark' monsters are among the whole lot.

I'm not saying it's a 100&#37; thing - there's always a chance the monster will miss (though presumably you'll try to pick a fairly accurate one) - but to my mind it stands a very good chance of taking people out in a very cheap way.

[Grey]

Covenant, reread the rules. I think I've made them clear enough. You are not allowed to deceive other players, or create lethal situations without telling them the full details.

And let me make something else clear here - anyone employing a tactic like this and withholding information that is vital to survival will be cast out. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

[Silfir]

So if I understand that correctly - you can ditch healing potions, create near-impossible situations, all that jazz - as long as you tell your successor everything about the situation?

[Grey]

Yes, that is the only rule. Do what you like, but tell everyone the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. After all this is about winning using game skill, not winning through tactics outside the game (ie other knowledge).

[M_bowwarrior]

So if I understand that correctly - you can ditch healing potions, create near-impossible situations, all that jazz - as long as you tell your successor everything about the situation?


be careful, if as me you manage an impossible situation and nobody (you too) survive, you will be in the abyss with me....

[Grey]

moving this discussion from the Trial of Rust:


Yo, Grey, I just hope that this will be an all-encompassing rule for all the cases where the "full round of players dies to near-impossible situation" thing happens. Otherwise it's unfair.

Valid point - I was just considering this to be a fun way for those who have died to get a little more involved in what's happening (I can't imagine anyone will get through). However yes, the same applies to future such situations - with one caveat. In a case of a league down to 2 players that end up in an unwinnable situation, this will not occur. Those 2 will be the winners of their league, and whoever did best (according to the ranking rules) in that situation will come out top. This is simply to prevent victory in a league being snatched away by a lucky dead man (and fits in with the rules of entry to the League of Air being closed when one of the last two die).

[Silfir]

Quick question - Can I, in theory, enter the Trial of Rust? As far as I've read, only m_bowwarrior is disallowed from entering. Should this be extended to the players who also were faced with the situation once already, i. e. me, reich and Lich?

I am not planning to waste any time trying to do the impossible, but I like arguing about rules :)

[Grey]

M_bowwarrior is disallowed because he has already been through the trial - the same applies to you. When reich or Lich next die then the rewards of the Trial of Rust instantly disappear.

[Grey]

Looks like 4 of the Mana entrants may already have been decided - let's see how they progress. The Fire and Water leagues may take some time to be resolved unless there are serious player errors.

[Siriah]

Well, competitive tactics might thin the Fire League down a bit :p It's great that the Chaos Gate is now opened in a league where those are actually used. Although I would have liked a flg to see just what Fire is now 'lacking', besides food.

...No run-down on what happened in the Earth League? :(

[Soirana]

from major points FIRE is lacking
food/piety/offensive spells (unless you count bless for one)

most of other stuff from previous round is in place.

[Grey]

Inferior leagues, take note at the flaming ambition of the league of fire! From I17 to I32 in 3 turns! Bwaha, this is the sort of fun I was looking forward to :D We'll soon have dived far past the pansies in the league of Water.

[gut]

Fire League is one turn from over.
Enjoy watching the Water League retrieve the Sceptre.

[Grey]

Don't believe his communist lies!

[Soirana]

Fire League is one turn from over.
Enjoy watching the Water League retrieve the Sceptre.
Your babbling got me into compettive mode. This time i didn't even used off spellbooks.

[PeanutGod]

Added a run down on the Earth League. All my bad, apologies. Feel free to insult me with strange names and technical words.

[gut]

> Your babbling got me into compettive mode.

Competitive mode?! You mean you plan to work cooperatively with
Grey, to retrieve the Sceptre?! Oh, man! If you think that guy
won't turn on you at the first opportunity, you're the biggest
Fire League'er of them all! He's C-! Believe me Soirana, you
shouldn't trust him for one minute : )

[M_bowwarrior]

hum hum... what do you said ? non biased ?



Just a quick, and totally non-biased, summary of the different Leagues'
progress:

Water League - heroic and amazing [...]many valiant deeds, [...]most excellent players, [...]growing stronger

Air League - overwhelming odds, [...]true warrior's never-say-die spirit,

Earth League - very skilled players [...]no real flaw in strategy


Fire League - such a miserable league, [...]Fire League'er suicided,[...]been lumped in
the Fire League, [...]cheap and underhanded tactics, [...]dishonor, for being associated with the
Fire League in general.[...]Truly disgraceful. [...]Pathetic.

What is your definition of "non biased" ?:eek:

[Grey]

> Your babbling got me into compettive mode.

Competitive mode?! You mean you plan to work cooperatively with
Grey, to retrieve the Sceptre?! Oh, man! If you think that guy
won't turn on you at the first opportunity, you're the biggest
Fire League'er of them all! He's C-! Believe me Soirana, you
shouldn't trust him for one minute : )

I find it most ironic how this is coming from you. I know you're just itching to curse and doom your char and throw away the holy symbol as soon as the Chaos Gate is opened. I pity the poor sods that are soon due to find their "mentor" in the league is actually a stalking tiger, waiting to pounce on them and tear their guts out.

[reich]

44486 deepshock, advanced to level 15 (122897 xps), survived for 23192 turns.
Hundred crack fisted by a mimic hivemind on I33.

:confused: and what does it mean 'hundred crack fisted'??? Sounds sort of ... risque (pronounce: rees-KAY):D

[Covenant]

Is it some kind of perverted version of Eddie Honda's Hundred Hand Slap?

[gut]

Well sniveling Fire League'ers, all Leagues have determined their champs now.
with the exception of the Water League of course. I expect we will have the
Sceptre soon enough though, so you shouldn't have to wait too long... to be
utterly defeated once more.

In a response to some earlier Fire League simpering, I will explain why the Water
League champ, will inevitably be the Mana League champ as well.

A Fire League'er drooled:
> Honestly i do not care neither for who gets better place in league of Mana
> (which place is best anyway?),

Which place is best?! The FIRST place is best!!!! You had no shot at it of course,
because the Water League was destined for it from the start (second place as
well!). Here is why it is important:

The first player in the rotation (the Water League champ!), will control the first
round of chaos tactics. The second player (Water League co-champ) will only have
to survive the sabotage attempts of one previous player. The third sucke- I mean
player, will have to deal with the combined problems, prepared for them by the
first TWO players.

You can imagine how the difficulty will increase steadily, as the round goes on.
The Fire League players should rightly end up in the last place slots, but due to the
fact that (tricky) Grey will likely employ more under-handed tactics, I'm sure that
some other League will get those horrible spots. My sympathies go out to the other
Leagues. Do not be surprised at the tactics of the Fire League'ers, no matter what
they are! Trust me, the only way to deal with Fire League'ers, is with a firm hand.
Give them no opportunity to turn on you, look what they did to each other!

If the Fire League chicke- I mean players, think that their typical cowardice, will
cause the noble Water League co-champions to take things easy on them... they
have another think coming.

[PeanutGod]

Well when it comes to the League of Mana, don't discount the Earth duo. We've proven that we're not about to lie down and die for anyone (except ratling warlords that take advantage of old hurthling ladies when they're blind). Who knows, maybe we'll be the ones surprising you?

[gut]

A victory for a Earth League champ would be glorious.
A victory for a Air League champ would be fantastic.
A victory for a Water League champ would be wonderful.
A victory for a Fire League champ, would be an abomination
against nature, and a slap in the face, to all of a righteous
heart on this Earth.

[Grey]

The first player in the rotation (the Water League champ!), will control the first
round of chaos tactics. The second player (Water League co-champ) will only have
to survive the sabotage attempts of one previous player. The third sucke- I mean
player, will have to deal with the combined problems, prepared for them by the
first TWO players.

You have misunderstood the rules, much like you have misunderstood your place in life. Water league, assuming both winners get deeper than all others (which I'll admit is an easy assumption to make), will occupy the 1st and 5th places in the league. The 4 champions occupy places 1-4, whilst the runners up have places 5-8.


A victory for a Fire League champ, would be an abomination
against nature, and a slap in the face, to all of a righteous
heart on this Earth.

I look forward then to defiling everything you find holy and dear :)

[deepshock]

44486 deepshock, advanced to level 15 (122897 xps), survived for 23192 turns.
Hundred crack fisted by a mimic hivemind on I33.

:confused: and what does it mean 'hundred crack fisted'??? Sounds sort of ... risque (pronounce: rees-KAY):D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz3jYkZMqqA this

[gut]

Trickster Grey did babble:
> Water league
<snip rediculous Fire League propaganda>
> will occupy the 1st and 5th places in the league.

A predictable, and quite typical (under-handed) Fire
League tactic, trying to cheat a Water League co-champion
out of their rightful place of glory. Hiding behind some
fabrication, to explain why a miserable Fire League'er
should have an undeserved advantage over a TRUE warrior.

A highly skilled Water League champion (who perhaps even
retrieves the Sceptre!), shall be eclipsed by a no talent
Fire League hack (who couldn't even avoid being slaghtered
by a monster that was blind in the dark!)

Notice how these 'last minute' rule modifications tend to
punish non-Fire League'ers, while conveniently benefiting one
player in particular. I have said it before, and will say
it again "This guy is not to be trusted!"

[Grey]

If by last minute you mean 4 days ago:

http://www.adom.de/forums/showpost.php?p=4518&postcount=123

Really, gut, try to keep up with things. I know you're naturally a bit slower and it's hard for you to assimilate these things, but you could at least try.

Also it doesn't benefit me at all, since I'm a runner-up and will be behind some stuck up Water league schmuck regardless.

[vogonpoet]

You guys are insane : )

Funny, but insane.

/carry on

[Nezur]

Obviously just some kind of interleague roleplay. :)

[gut]

'Even a broken clock is right two times a day' Grey wrote:
> it's hard for you to assimilate these things, but you could at least try.

That one's funny because it's true (unlike most of your usual Fire League
nonsense). The other day, I actually DID think the Water League was in
round 3! : D

[Grey]

No doubt your obsessive thoughts on which corrupt and profane tactics to use led you to believe you were already in that phase. Or perhaps you were reading the exploits of the other, more advanced leagues too much, more obsessed with their bravado and courage in the face of immense danger than in the pathetically boring games in your little paddling pool of a league.

[M_bowwarrior]

so, when the final league will start ? every league have her two finalist ! let's go ! :)

[DeSt]

Glorious Water League still has 6 people.

[Grey]

Pathetic Water League are still straggling behind as ever...

[FantomFang]

Yeah, it has slowed down a bit more than I would've liked....I want to get the ball rolling so we can figure out our finalists too! (Not before we grab us a sceptre though!)

[Nezur]

Question: I encountered a river. Despite two "You hear the sound of rushing water!" messages I didn't realize there was a river (I thought it was just a water trap) until I found it. Now I'm in a corridor between a necromancer that has summoned skellies and the river. I found the downstairs and they are on my side of the level. I'll probably have to dispatch enemies to get to the upstairs in order to regenerate the level. Am I allowed to do that, master Grey?

EDIT: Doh, I reread the rules. I thought I remembered the river part but it was different after all. Since I can reach the downstairs I'm not allowed to regenerate the level...

[Grey]

Many thanks to everyone who has taken part - this really turned out even better than I imagined. Before we go on to the finals I have to give out the award for the most stupid death:

*drum rolls*

And the winner is... vogonpoet! On his very first go he took on a room full of doppelganger lords. He managed to slaughter them all with great ease, but whilst finishing them off he accidentally hit himself with his own lightning bolt, bringing him down to 0 HP. An utterly unecessary death that can only happen through sheer stupidity - everyone give a big round of applause to vogonpoet for providing us with such a delightfully entertaining death!

And now the League of Mana must commence. I hope you all vocally support your former League-mates through this gruelling contest. The entrants are:

1. gut (Water champion)
2. Soirana (Fire champion)
3. Nezur (Earth champion)
4. reich (Air champion)
5. DeSt (Water runner-up)
6. Grey (Fire runner-up)
7. PeanutGod (Earth runner-up)
8. Lich (Air runner-up)

Now prepare yourselves well for the final challenge...

[reich]

Wow, at least this one starts with some decent spellbooks!! As the experience from the Water league shows, the Darkness spell can keep him safe from almost any monster for many many levels. Plus Light to cancel that if needed, and the powerful Lightning Bolt spell to do business. Again we have a weakling in physical stats, and the avarage Learning is dissapointing, but great Willpower and Mana will help.

Any ideas for a cool and evil-sounding name??

edit: if I recall correctly, the month of Cup means he will be getting experience level very quick! That could be great for this sort of challange!

[gut]

> he accidentally hit himself with his own lightning bolt,

vogonpoet strategically suicided, to remove himself from being
associated with the pitiful Fire League. He's too polite to say
that himself, and may even deny it so as not to offend, but
I'm sure that's what happened. I'll give you one guess as to
who (I think) should really get that award...

[Grey]

edit: if I recall correctly, the month of Cup means he will be getting experience level very quick! That could be great for this sort of challange!

I don't think that'll help much at all actually. As the previous leagues have shown, experience gains matter little overall. Even the league of Water only got to level 21. The lesser experience requirements won't make the biggest of impacts apart from very early on, and the same for the extra skill increases. The extra Le is nice though, since it's so low as is.

Certainly a very good start I think - elven chain, great spells and holy water to boot. All very nice. Low To and Le we'll just have to put up with.

[Grey]

I'll give you one guess as to
who (I think) should really get that award...

Anyone who participated in the league of Water for being dumb enough to think they could ever manage to beat your profane tactics? :P

[FantomFang]

Hey, I didn't lose to profane tactics! Plain bad luck did me in! Generating around half a dozen monsters whose PV I couldn't break, with the ability to see darkness and invisibility thrown in, with the downstairs hidden behind a secret door...that level was DOOM!

And good luck to Gut and DeSt. ROCK THEIR FACES OFF!!! WATER FTW!1!!!11!!

[reich]

here are some stats from the first round of the Weakest Link challange game:

There were 32 participants. The most common cause of death was killing in melee combat: 22 occurences.
Monsters that killed players were:
ancient minotaur
ancient red dragon (last death from monster)
blue dragon
dark elven lord
dark elven priestess
dark orc
diamond golem
ghost lord
gibbering mouther
margoyle dire wolf
mimic hivemind
minotaur mazelord
owlbear
pit viper (first death)
ratling warlord
rust monster - 3 players killed
swamp hydra
werewolf
white worm
writhing mass of primal chaos

Second most common cause of death was blasting by bolts from monsters - 4 occurences.
Monsters that blasted the players were:
ancient black dragon
lightning lizard
ogre magus - 2 players

Other causes of death were:
- Starvation - 1 death
- suicide - 1 death
- accidental death by lightning bolt - 1 death

4 players were disqualified for lateness.

There have been 3 ressurections and 1 player was cast to the Abbyss.

2 players were blinded at time of death; 2 were paralyzed.

The most participants ended their adventuring lives on:
ID 15 - 5
ID 14 - 3
ID 13 - 3
ID 68 - 2
ID 12 - 2
First death occured on ID 1. The deepest one was ID 93.

By PC level: the most deaths happened on level:
12 - 7 deaths
11 - 4
20 - 3
21, 16, 15, 13, 10 - 2
Earliest death came to the PC at level 1. The highest level achieved was 21.

[gut]

Regarding the ongoing Mana League massacres:

Nezur:
> I somehow managed to finish MYSELF.

I'm starting to think, that I am cursing whoever I am hoping to win.

...

I now root for Soirana : )

[Siriah]

That was a nice chaos gate opening. The 'reward' for winning is a nice touch.