Help with A Weaponsmith

[electric_wizard]

I've been playing ADOM for over 10 years and one of the only classes I've not had any luck at all with is the weaponsmith. In fact, I've never smithed anything before with any character. The constraint of carrying around a 1000 stone anvil and a git big hammer has always been more than I could be bothered with.

Can anyone recommend a good race for a smith and perhaps some suggestions for surviving more than five minutes!

[Silfir]

I've played lots of high elven weaponsmiths because their melee skillset is quite good, but they're pretty weak. I'm not really a smithing pro, I'm afraid, so I can't give you much in the way of good advice.

One hint - make use of that anvil! Crush doors with it! That takes out those damn door traps without trouble.

[electric_wizard]

I tried a grey elf and didn't do so well. The lack of magic OR any real combat abilities seem to make it a really tuff class to get started with. I could try a more brutish race but they always come unstuck later on.

Nice tip with the door crushing. I knew you could do that with huge rocks but never tried it with anvils.

[Silfir]

Elven weaponsmiths have elven chain mail. Find a shield and your combat abilities should be more than okay. First goal should be the healing skill though, for better staying power.

[Soirana]

hurthling.

Basically you get good skills, good dex, good toughness and anvil grants reasonable strength

[Timpak]

Drakeling, good stats, acid spit, nothing more needed to say. Safekeep the anvil at ministrel until you use it if it's too heavy.

[electric_wizard]

I've always stayed clear of drakelings. I hate the ToEF enough as it is and from what I hear it's even worse with a drakeling.

Hurthlings on the other hand are one of my favorite races. Good and versatile. I'll give them a spin and see how I get on.

[electric_wizard]

Just realised why I can't keep these fools alive early on. It's Friday 13th!

[vogonpoet]

Yeah we should have run a challenge for me to poison suicide in... Will try to generate plenty of PCs later on today.. always fun... might try gut's uberdooming idea, if I can survive long enough to piss off 3 gods....

I like weaponsmiths. nOrmally use dwarves, just for the feel of it, hurthlings are good if you find some rocks early on, gnomes are cool for the gems, and I also like dark elves. Female dark elven weaponsmiths. How are they not hot???

Just leave the anvil someplace safe whilst you do terinyo quests, (get the ants on PC2 to mine for you) then head on over to UD for early forge goodness - if you find one in the UD, pimp all your best armour (forget actual weaponsmithing until ego weapons found, you are really an armoursmith) with all the ore you and the PC2 ants could find, and then proceed with ease for ages.

Later, if generated high enough, just lure the dwarven smithy to the level below dwarf town, as for some reason you wont be able to mend your own pickaxes.

Keep smithing beyond "despite your best efforts, you fail to improve the blah blah" messages. Don't stop smithing your phase daggers until you have at least one point of DV attached...

But mainly, smith your armours.... use different metals for your helm, sheild, body armour, gauntlets etc - that way you wont waste your ore.

[PeanutGod]

I've always found weaponsmiths to be a right pain in the arse. Even Dwarven Weaponsmiths (which are supposed to be extra good at smithing) just die right off the bat. Must just not be patient enough I guess.

[gut]

I would have to say that weaponsmiths are my least favorite
class. Well, there is farmer, but I think farmers are supposed to
suck, that's their reason for existing. With weaponsmiths, you
scrap to stay alive for the whole early-game, hoping for a pay
off later.

What payoff? Oh, you get to spend hours of your time, scumming
for ore. Then you get to smelt ingots which is a horde
of fun , and lastly, you get to smith until your fingers
bleed. The hope is to get extra DV/PV that is in no way needed
to win the game (which by the way, any other PC could also do).

If they at least started with the healing skill, things might be
different.

[FantomFang]

The main reason for starting so weak is their crappy starting equipment.

[Silfir]

Elven chain mail isn't crappy. (Grumble grumble...)

[reich]

Human smiths start with a large hammer (1d10, one handed) which is very good. I'm not fond of this class either, but they can be decent as straightforward warriors. And maybe I'm wrong, but I think they tend to find more high-quality weapons and equipment than other classes.

[Grey]

I've never had any lack of high quality weapons and armour with any class. For weaponsmiths to be in any way desirable to play then normal Smithing should be toned down for other classes so that only the true weaponsmiths can get very good results from it. As it is they just have a very slightly easier time doing something that isn't necessary anyway.

[Soirana]

i don't get why you are obsessed with smithing. Look at them as sort of warriors with concentration already installed.

[gut]

For skillset warriors, don't you think that monks and rangers
have the advantage.

[Molach]

They are somewhat ...redundant...by the fact that other classes can get access to an anvil pretty easy, by the early-mid game.

Normal char: Survive to about level 13. Enter pyramid for pickaxe. Dig out D:8 for a heap of ore, repairing pickaxe as needed. Have greater daemon kill dwarven smith, and you can smith all you want, really.

Weaponsmith: Be lucky enough to find an early forge, otherwise you kinda have to use the dwarftown one, which makes this very similar to normal char. IF you find an early forge, you can spend your pitiful stack of starting ingots to improve _iron_ gear. This will likely not last you the game, but of course makes early game easy. At CL 6 you can use the melt down crap-function to generate more ingots. Elves start with elven chain mail, so they need to find something else to improve...mithril is precious this early.

However, where to find that early forge? The UD often has dungeon features...but a char without healing will be very brave to go there. You can hope to find one in the easy dungeons, but of course, if you don't find one you are just like a normal char again. (well melt-down saves some game turns, and boredom) A fine way to play them is therefore to start game, get healing quest, go through VD. No forge = restart.

Just noticed that they do not have mining skill. Hah. Pitiful. And to think monks can kick down walls for ore...

Improvement: Let them start with a pickaxe. And mining skill.

Or reverse improvement: "The smith in dwarftown does not drop an anvil."

Still, find that early forge, and get a metal cap [0,1] and/or a metal girdle [0,1] and turn them both into [8,8]...then take on the rest of the game. Heh.

Edit: Just tried this. Started one, no forge in VD/PC, but one in UD. However, melt down takes time...and how am I supposed to melt in peace? I tried 10 times, each time got interrupted. Wand of door creation, keys to lock it, sure...but that does not make this an early-game strategy.

[Silfir]

Weaponsmiths have higher HP than rangers, don't they?

[Timpak]

I've always stayed clear of drakelings. I hate the ToEF enough as it is and from what I hear it's even worse with a drakeling.

Hurthlings on the other hand are one of my favorite races. Good and versatile. I'll give them a spin and see how I get on.

ToEF is even easier with drakeling than a normal char, the hp you loose is made up by far with the 250+ speed you get.

[gut]

Moloch:
> "The smith in dwarftown does not drop an anvil."

I think that would be a good idea, but I still wouldn't
bother with weaponsmiths, unless they started with
the healing skill.

Silfir:
> Weaponsmiths have higher HP than rangers, don't they?

Yes, Weaponsmiths start with To +3, rangers get +2 and
monks get +1. I meant that I think rangers and monks
have a better fighting skillset. As far as 'skillset plus HP's'
go, I would say the healer class beats weaponsmith.
Healers start with To +4, better skills, and great class
powers.

Healer: guaranteed - First Aid, Healing, Herbalism, Literacy
non-guaranteed - Alertness, Concentration, Cooking, Find Weakness

Weaponsmith: guaranteed - Detect Traps, Haggling, Smithing
non-guaranteed - Appraising, Athletics, Concentration, Find Weakness, Metallurgy

The guaranteed skills that weaponsmiths get are a lot more
easily aquired in-game than the healer's, and weaponsmiths
have to chose between healing and herbalism, because they
don't even start with ONE. As far as guaranteed skills go,
the healer has alertness (one of the best) and cooking (nice)
in exchange for appraising (unrelyable), athletics (kills exp. gains),
and metallurgy (it's metallurgy).

[Alavir]

I for one think that gnomish weaponsmiths are very good, specially if born under candle.

In the beggining they are quite strong and though, they have many talents, they have very decent learning, mana and dexterity as well. In the late game they have got concentration, athletics, find weakness and ventriloquism, so they can be effective fighter/mages. Finally they have mining/gemology combo to get learning 30 to practise spellcasting.

Sure, gnomish monks got all that, and they healing (but if you are born in candle why bother with healing anyways) and they are able to kick walls and do instakills, but you dont need to get strained early on to train strenght (oh and monks *suck* when strained), and the weaponsmith class features are not that bad... fire imunity, bonus to st and to.

The smithing class features are also good for end game, since you can just collect eternium items, instead of mine highly corrupting areas and smithing are faster.

To resume, gnomish weaponsmiths are very good and i plan to make my first non-wiz victory with one. They are quite slow to heal (if not candle born) till you get healing skill or an item which do that(preserver or amulet of rapid healing or bracers of war) but that is not a big problem in the late game.

[gut]

I also think the gnomish race especially compliments the
weaponsmith class, as does the candle star sign. If one
does play a weaponsmith, this is a good combo. However,
I still think other classes are more powerful.

> if you are born in candle why bother with healing anyways

If you are asking why one would want more healing, well,
it's more healing.

> you dont need to get strained early on to train strenght
> (oh and monks *suck* when strained)

I don't remember the penalties being quite that bad.
Weaponsmiths do start with higher St than most classes, but
any PC can get to 18 by 'w5'ing with large rations in
Terinyo. It's even quick enough that I do it sometimes.

> weaponsmith class features are not that bad... fire
> imunity, bonus to st and to.

Weaponsmith class powers aren't good. Here are some of
my thoughts about them, that I had previously posted:

--------------------------------------
Weaponsmith: 2 1/2 stars. Melting metal items at level 6 is occasionally
useful for helping you survive the early game. If you find a early forge,
but not a pickaxe, it can help you get an extra couple of points on your
equipment. Faster forging is nice. The level 25 'auto recognize metal
types' is a waste to me. Fire immunity at level 32 comes too late for
the ToEF, and you may have already been crowned with it (which can be
very frustrating), otherwise it's OK. The level 40 bonus to toughness
comes at a good time. Level 50's 'auto recognize weapon damage is
useless', it doesn't help your PC in the slightest. Maybe should be
higher because of fire immunity, but the forging powers just strike me
as being convenient, not REALLY helpful. The useless powers are truly
useless.
------------------------------------------

> instead of mine highly corrupting areas

Why would anyone do that?

[Alavir]

>> instead of mine highly corrupting areas

>Why would anyone do that?
I got two weaponsmiths on level 20's, one gnome and another dwarf. One got sacced after got confused and walked on an chaotic altar and another i dont remember how it died. Both mined everything in the non-corrupting levels of the CoC. Ye, i could mine other dungeons but walking around in wilderness takes time. There is another way to do smithing after that if not going to corrupting levels or using the class power?

>However, I still think other classes are more powerful.
Yes, but weaponsmiths are not that horrible either. They are easy to play on beggining because of high ST and TO, and are powerful because of high PV/DV and concentration in the late game. I think fighters are the worse class, even worse than weaponsmiths and farmers and merchants.

>The level 25 'auto recognize metal types' is a waste to me.
Its ridiculous since your Metalurgy skill is already at 100 at that time.

>Level 50's 'auto recognize weapon damage is useless', it doesn't help your PC in the slightest.
Absolutely horrible at that late in the game. If the char get that early in the game it could be a bit useful.

>The useless powers are truly useless.
I dont mentioned those powers because they are well... horrible. Most classes got horrible powers, specially druid... those are trully awful.

[gut]

> mined everything in the non-corrupting levels of the CoC

Wow, that's a lot of mining! I was indeed thinking of using
other dungeon levels for ore. My thought was that if one is
going to do that much smithing, time probably wouldn't be
that important to them. The 90 day limit is probably past,
and (to my knowledge) the corruption rate increase happens
only once.

> They are easy to play on beggining

Maybe for you they are, but not for me. They lack a decent
long range attack, and that seems to hinder me. Perhaps it's
just melee classes that start with no healing, that bug me.

> Most classes got horrible powers specially druid...

Agreed. Here are my previous thoughts on druid and fighter powers:

------------------------------
Druid: 1 1/2 stars. Evading wilderness encounters is convenient. 2x
PP regen in wilderness is worthless. Immune to weather effects is
only useful if you plan to carry your inventory through the
wilderness, without a waterproof blanket (at level 18, you really
should have found one of these by now). Summoning animals, again I
have NEVER used. HP regen x2 in wilderness, not useful. Lightning
immunity is nice, and usually comes in time for the blue dragon
caves. 10 %less corruption doesn't come in time to be useful, by the
time you reach exp. level 50, you have already dealt with most of
the corruption in the game. Too many useless powers!
------------------------------

------------------------------
Fighter: 3 stars. Increasing PV bonus by 7% = nothing unless you start
with an unreasonable amount of PV. The increases at higher levels can
be nice though. DV bonus is OK. The level 40 'bash attack' is nice,
because and additional 500 energy points doesn't hurt too much, after
your weapon skill is high. The all-around attack is pointless. If
you plan to get surrounded on D:50, and all-around bash a half dozen
balors, you have an all-around death wish. Their bad skills are bad,
but their good ones are GOOD, so they kind of balance a bit.
------------------------------

[Nezur]

Note that the class power ratings are based on a 4 star system.

The brilliant class power guide can be found at the Brinkster ADoM forum.