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Jeziah
03-07-2008, 01:12 AM
I made this thread so that forum members could post their favourite aspects about ADOM. I'm hoping that this could provide Thomas with helpful research data on what to set as a priority, and possibly what to omit, from further developments into JADE, ADOM and any other projects he might persue in the future.

Actually I just made it to have bragging rights on the first ADOM thread.;)

I like how it sticks to straight-up roguelikeness (no graphics, text based), the everything-random generation and the world map.

Travis Prue
03-07-2008, 01:29 AM
I like everything about ADOM except for the lack of moose =p

Taarnling
03-07-2008, 01:33 AM
The thing that makes ADOM stand out from other roguelikes most, for me, is that it doesn't go the 'everything plus the kitchen sink' route. It has a coherent story and setting and sticks with it. There aren't a ton of races and classes all over the place like some others.

Of course, you can't forget that the interface is one of the simplest and most elegant out there, the good combination of structure and randomness (Law and Chaos?) in level design, or the shiny artifacts. Good stuff all over really, but the cohesiveness of it all is what grabbed me.

Cerus
03-07-2008, 01:43 AM
I like the straight forward design that's often missing in rogue-likes, the intuitiveness of the interface is helpful.

Gulfd'An
03-07-2008, 01:58 AM
I like the fact that it has a well thought out story line but you don't have to do it to have fun.

rho
03-07-2008, 02:00 AM
If I had to pick one thing out of the many, I'd say the almost complete lack of unfair deaths. Almost every time I died, I could look back on it and see something I'd done wrong, or something I should have done differently, and I can learn from it. This is much more fun than walking along minding your own business and suddeny getting "an elder god teleports in from another plane of existence and eats you" without any warning at all.

Sradac
03-07-2008, 02:27 AM
I'd have to say I love the danger factor. Granted one wrong move at any char level in most roguelikes CAN mean insta-death, but the world of ADOM just SEEMS more dangerous, it makes me think more, and it draws me in more. The random encounters, the dungeon generation systems, and the VERY unique locations all add to the huge amount of danger around. I remember my first month of playing I always went to the small cave and kept dying, not understanding why i died there and no where else it wasnt until later i found the secret of that cave, and I dont think i have to mention the first time I stumbled upon the tower of eternal flame, we all know how that went our first time lol. And I happened to be playing a drakeling ranger too lol. Adom rocks.

Travis Prue
03-07-2008, 03:12 AM
I dont think i have to mention the first time I stumbled upon the tower of eternal flame, we all know how that went our first time lol.

Don't remind me xD

bigsva
03-07-2008, 10:59 AM
ADOM is simply the best CRPG I've ever played. Endless replayability, great storyline, fascinating game world and hundreds of little things that make it stand apart from all other games (from cats to bridgebuilding)

dopefish7590
03-07-2008, 11:10 AM
Love it for it's simple-complexity, yes I know it makes no sense... Until I say this: In ADOM you can do absolutaly anything you want, you can get quests from people, explore, level up, Hang around areas, make companions, tame monsters, train magic or strength, etc... Yet ADOM is quite simple in terms of graphics and the GUI, on how it displays the enviroment... Not to mention the tiny size of the executable...

ZeroTheBird
03-07-2008, 11:34 AM
The combat and Magic system is awesome not to mention the wide selection of enemies.
and that there are different endings.

Aerudaer
03-07-2008, 11:45 AM
What I enjoy most about ADOM over other rogue-likes is the in-depth feel to it. The other rogue-like I play often has more class and race choices but the choice is less limiting. Although inefficient, you could make most characters do most things. I like the class abilities and talent system in ADOM. I also like the detailed plot.

electric_wizard
03-07-2008, 02:53 PM
It's all about depth. The more you play it the more there is to it. I remember the first time I saw the list of key bindings, I couldn't believe it! "wipe face? clean ears? What the hell kind of crazy game detail is this"

puuro
03-07-2008, 02:56 PM
I like that ADOM is difficult and merciless. You have to be very careful and learn from your deaths if you want to survive long. But if you manage you will find new exciting places. There are still lots of places I haven't managed to explore and items i have not found. thinking this question leads me to remember all my old good ADOM games. I think I will start playing again. It would be great to win some day...

Sradac
03-07-2008, 03:23 PM
I like that ADOM is difficult and merciless. You have to be very careful and learn from your deaths if you want to survive long. But if you manage you will find new exciting places.


Gremlin cave anyone? lol

Anfeir
03-07-2008, 04:10 PM
1)I like crowning. Receiving a random artifact in the early stage of the game is cool.
2)Also i like the feeling when you strive a lot to get an item and finally - here it is! you've found an amulet of life saving! or a ring of ice. or a wand of cold. (Or better a wand of wishing)
3) Interface is fine (the most nice of any roguelike i 've seen). (but yes, there're some ways to improve it still)

Grey
03-07-2008, 05:24 PM
I like best the numerous different locations and NPCs. You get a real sense of exploration going to the different areas across the map - even if you're doing it for the thousandth time. The variety of quests is great, especially the whole conflict between order and chaos (and don't forget balance either). The weird little mysteries make everything exciting too - the weird tome, the strange message in HMV, the mad minstrel. It all feeds the imagination very nicely.

And as has been said before, there are few unfair deaths. After the early game there is nothing that can't be beaten with the right preparation. But it still keeps you on your toes, keeps you thinking. There have been times I've had to sit for several minutes pondering carefully what my next move will be against an emperor lich or a powerful boss, and after making the right choices and managing to escape from what looked like an unwinnable situation you get a great sense of satisfaction.

Baranor
03-07-2008, 06:23 PM
I love the jokes!

Seriously, has anyone ever been killed by the cute dog! Try it some day. My friend was killed in this entertaining fashion and he proceeded to immediately email me the message. I will let you find out for yourself. I will add that it doesn't happen every time you are killed by the dog, but it's pretty awesome.

I also like the "use" for the potion of uselessness. TB did a great job with the integration for this game. I trust that will continue into JADE!

Jeziah
03-07-2008, 10:33 PM
Love it for it's simple-complexity, yes I know it makes no sense... Until I say this: In ADOM you can do absolutaly anything you want, you can get quests from people, explore, level up, Hang around areas, make companions, tame monsters, train magic or strength, etc... Yet ADOM is quite simple in terms of graphics and the GUI, on how it displays the enviroment... Not to mention the tiny size of the executable...

-_-
Roguelikes are DESIGNED to be low on graphics. It's REQUIRED. If ADOM had graphics it would lose much of it's good gameplay. Go play a graphical roguelike and you'll know what i mean.

Same goes for the GUI, but I always thought it was pretty good anyways...

A smaller executable doesn't mean a worse game, it means better programming :mad:
How the hell could one be led to think otherwise?!
A small game file is a widely-respected and hard-worked for feature of ADOM. Thomas designed ADOM to be not only amazingly fun but to work for those less fortunate, who have very old and poor computers, or for those with dial-up connections, who don't want to run their computer all week to download a good game (I have a powerful computer, and a 1000mb/s connection, btw).


I like Adom's small executable file and humour.
I also like the ADOM community.

adomer
03-07-2008, 10:44 PM
I enjoy the fact that it's a little different everytime you play. Also, the infinite dugeons for being able to go back and forth between d8 and d9 to get an amulet of lifesaving to save Khelavaster. Vaults and Greater Vaults also make the game much more exciting.

heavensblade23
03-13-2008, 11:24 PM
-_-
Roguelikes are DESIGNED to be low on graphics. It's REQUIRED. If ADOM had graphics it would lose much of it's good gameplay. Go play a graphical roguelike and you'll know what i mean.


How does adding tiles to a roguelike make it lose gameplay? The only example that's coming to mind is in Nethack where if you play with tiles you won't know which character corresponds to which monsters when reading a blessed scroll of genocide.

neko
03-14-2008, 06:30 AM
I like the way how adom convinces me that death of the character was my fault :)

ie, You died, do you want to see your inventory? Look at that, i had a wand of teleportation

And you got to love it when you got yourself surrounded by ghouls, and one of them manages to paralyze you.
Oh the wonderfull thrill, thinking if you'll ever be able to move again, while ghouls miserably fail to do any significant damage, but still manage to paralyze you untill you die from hunger

And how the puppy is generated in a tension room. And cats.

Bot most of all, i love the rivers. Because i never have swimming or cold source.

Wait, i like adom why?
I have no idea. I just do :)

Epythic
03-14-2008, 11:48 AM
If ADOM had graphics it would lose much of it's good gameplay. Go play a graphical roguelike and you'll know what i mean.
Go play any graphical RPG (and dont tell me RPG != roguelike, i know that).


A smaller executable doesn't mean a worse game, it means better programming :mad:

It means more code than graphics. Look at the commercial games: gigabytes of graphics and sounds. I bet they dont have lots of code, however. (As long as you keep in mind that ADOM was written by one god, whereas the commercial games are written by well-paid full-time programmers. But even then - even with the graphics and all they cannot stand ADOM's gameplay. after all, what other game was played since... dunno, 1991 ??)

Grey
03-14-2008, 12:40 PM
Go play any graphical RPG (and dont tell me RPG != roguelike, i know that).
It means more code than graphics. Look at the commercial games: gigabytes of graphics and sounds. I bet they dont have lots of code, however. (As long as you keep in mind that ADOM was written by one god, whereas the commercial games are written by well-paid full-time programmers. But even then - even with the graphics and all they cannot stand ADOM's gameplay. after all, what other game was played since... dunno, 1991 ??)

Well, ADOM was first released '94, and it wasn't till around '97 it started getting really popular. There's plenty of other games from back then and further back that still get played a lot (I got a Wii recently and the most played game in our house so far is Bomberman '93). I'd have to say that RPGs these days are catching up with roguelikes in terms of complexity. Look at the Elder Scrolls games and you'll see many detals that ADOM doesn't go into. What does ADOM have that it doesn't? Well, more fun obviously... But why? Due to the programming? I don't think it's that simple.

One major lasting factor for roguelikes is the random dungeons. It's not all the same each time, you do get some new experience whenever you play. In addition to this there is of course the perma-death, which on top of increasing excitement also makes it extremely addictive over long time-scales. Ever play one of those arcade-style games where the aim is to get a big high score? After a single play you want to instantly try again, and again, to get that little bit further and get a better score. With ADOM this lasts over a longer time period. After a particularly long run and a tragic death you may leave off playing for a while - possibly even weeks or months. And yet eventually you get drawn back, because you know you won't make that mistake again - you can do better this time. And when you die on VD2, well, maybe just another quick try - you know the next guy will last. And so on... Once you get into the game you always want to do better.

But perhaps the major thing for me is that ADOM is actually hard. Modern games rarely offer me a decent challenge, being simple hack and slash fests. The likes of Elder Scrolls I enjoy from a story and exploration standpoint, but making an invincible character is far too easy. In ADOM there's no such thing as invincible, and getting even vaguely powerful takes a lot of effort. Every step is fraught with danger and every character like a sputtering candle in the wind - sometimes gale force winds.

Dorten
03-14-2008, 12:56 PM
Every step is fraught with danger and every character like a sputtering candle in the wind - sometimes gale force winds.

Just as it would be in "Real", i.e. if it all was real...

And what do I love in ADOM? Well, the only thing i DON'T like is one littlt bug, which isn't bad enough to spoil the game.
You can say, that I love ADOM for it having almost nothing to hate it for!

Epythic
03-14-2008, 04:52 PM
Well, ADOM was first released '94, and it wasn't till around '97 it started getting really popular.
Once read about it, but didnt remember. Thanks for that info.


Look at the Elder Scrolls games and you'll see many detals that ADOM doesn't go into.
Except graphics and physics, I dont see any. Example?


One major lasting factor for roguelikes is the random dungeons. It's not all the same each time, you do get some new experience whenever you play. In addition to this there is of course the perma-death, which on top of increasing excitement also makes it extremely addictive over long time-scales. Ever play one of those arcade-style games where the aim is to get a big high score? After a single play you want to instantly try again, and again, to get that little bit further and get a better score. With ADOM this lasts over a longer time period. After a particularly long run and a tragic death you may leave off playing for a while - possibly even weeks or months. And yet eventually you get drawn back, because you know you won't make that mistake again - you can do better this time. And when you die on VD2, well, maybe just another quick try - you know the next guy will last. And so on... Once you get into the game you always want to do better.
Right. But why is it that way? Because the Creator spent that much time on code: game rules and content.


But perhaps the major thing for me is that ADOM is actually hard.
Forgot about that. Right, I like that too.


In ADOM there's no such thing as invincible
Did you ever try a Wizard? :)

Oh well, not invincible but extremely powerful.

Grey
03-14-2008, 06:51 PM
Except graphics and physics, I dont see any. Example?

Much more complex alchemy system, enchantment system, complex levelling system based on skills rather than experience, armour skills, fatigue system. And then there's the far more complex stories, NPC interactions, town details, hidden locations, huge number quests, etc. Of course some of these have their flaws, but the latest games do outstrip ADOM in a number of areas. I still prefer ADOM, but I can't say it's purely because of complexity any more.

Of course when it comes to complexity what I like about it compared with modern games is that in every instance you're left wondering what action to take, and there are a huge number of option. In the Morrowind and Oblivion it's down to hack hack hack, pausing to quaff 10 healing potions if you really need to. But this is part of ADOM being tougher too - you're forced to use all sorts of crazy tactics to stay alive.

And when it comes to fetch quests, at least ADOM doesn't use the boring fetch x, y, z formula. And there's only one instance of the dreaded kill 20 x (and it's at least made more interesting by the first kill thing). I hate the sort of generic quests that fill up modern games (especially bloody online RPGs).


Did you ever try a Wizard? :)

Oh well, not invincible but extremely powerful.

Ever get killed by your first door? Or by a stone block trap when you're ten levels in and feeling pretty confident? Yeah, wizards get immense later on, but before they find some morgia and a good shield they've got all the resilience of wet paper.

Epythic
03-15-2008, 07:56 AM
Much more complex alchemy system, enchantment system, complex levelling system based on skills rather than experience, armour skills, fatigue system. And then there's the far more complex stories, NPC interactions, town details, hidden locations, huge number quests, etc. Of course some of these have their flaws, but the latest games do outstrip ADOM in a number of areas. I still prefer ADOM, but I can't say it's purely because of complexity any more.

Of course when it comes to complexity what I like about it compared with modern games is that in every instance you're left wondering what action to take, and there are a huge number of option. In the Morrowind and Oblivion it's down to hack hack hack, pausing to quaff 10 healing potions if you really need to. But this is part of ADOM being tougher too - you're forced to use all sorts of crazy tactics to stay alive.

And when it comes to fetch quests, at least ADOM doesn't use the boring fetch x, y, z formula. And there's only one instance of the dreaded kill 20 x (and it's at least made more interesting by the first kill thing). I hate the sort of generic quests that fill up modern games (especially bloody online RPGs).

Oh well.. I would say the alchemy is not that complex - I am sure it took a while to code, but on the players side... Levelling always annoyed me, both in ADOM and TES. How can you measure a complex state with a number? Stories are much better, right. And so on. I still like ADOM more. The TES series is said to focus on free playing (as in "go wherever you want, do whatever you want"), but ADOM does it better.


Ever get killed by your first door? Or by a stone block trap when you're ten levels in and feeling pretty confident? Yeah, wizards get immense later on, but before they find some morgia and a good shield they've got all the resilience of wet paper.

Yeah, but if you die during the first 20 levels, restarting should take long.

Macros
03-15-2008, 02:00 PM
I'd have to say that RPGs these days are catching up with roguelikes in terms of complexity.

I can't agree here. Please show me game as complex and detailed as NetHack or Dwarf Fortress. I'm pretty sure that you won't find any.

Grey
03-15-2008, 04:29 PM
I can't agree here. Please show me game as complex and detailed as NetHack or Dwarf Fortress. I'm pretty sure that you won't find any.

You choose the two most complex roguelikes to counter my statement - not fair :P I said they're catching up with the genre, not equalling the best. ADOM and Angband no longer have greater complexity than the likes of Oblivion though. Of course complexity does not necessarily mean a good thing - I'm actually not a big fan of Nethack or Dwarf Fortress.

Macros
03-15-2008, 05:37 PM
I think it was fair - you've choose most complex modern rpg game, I've choose two of most complex roguelikes(and they're not only complex roguelikes, for example UnReal World is even more complex and detailed than NetHack). So even most complex modern rpg is not even close to most complex roguelike games. I don't know how it would look if we would take more examples from both sides, but I'm pretty sure that still average roguelike is more complex and detailed than average modern crpg game. :)


Of course complexity does not necessarily mean a good thing - I'm actually not a big fan of Nethack or Dwarf Fortress.

Personally I love playing NetHack(and I really enjoyed playing Dwarf Fortress and UnReal World), and one of reasons that I like it so much, is its complexity. For example, wielding cockatrice corpse, and turning 3/4 of your enemies into stautes is awesome(and falling from stairs, or into pit while wielding it is even better;) ), so do many many other features that most of roguelikes doesn't have. But I guess it's just a matter of taste.

Grey
03-15-2008, 07:12 PM
I think it was fair - you've choose most complex modern rpg game, I've choose two of most complex roguelikes(and they're not only complex roguelikes, for example UnReal World is even more complex and detailed than NetHack). So even most complex modern rpg is not even close to most complex roguelike games. I don't know how it would look if we would take more examples from both sides, but I'm pretty sure that still average roguelike is more complex and detailed than average modern crpg game. :)

Heh, okay, valid point. I don't know how you'd compare an "average" roguelike with an "average" RPG (could we even agree on examples? I don't even want to try!) The general trend of big budget computer RPGs these days though is to have this range of complexity - Fable is another example (though highly flawed). Whilst I don't think they'll ever match the likes of Nethack they've gained huge ground over the very basic RPGs we used to have.

And, uh... Y'know I really can't remember what the point to all this was, but I'm sure it's lurking around here somewhere... I think I was generally trying to say that simply being more complex isn't what makes a game good - sometimes it can even get in the way.



Personally I love playing NetHack(and I really enjoyed playing Dwarf Fortress and UnReal World), and one of reasons that I like it so much, is its complexity. For example, wielding cockatrice corpse, and turning 3/4 of your enemies into stautes is awesome(and falling from stairs, or into pit while wielding it is even better;) ), so do many many other features that most of roguelikes doesn't have. But I guess it's just a matter of taste.Well, I haven't given enough time to either to be honest (and I haven't touched UnReal World). ADOM's always been good enough to me that I've been content in my little cocoon. It's not even been that long since I first managed a win - it would take me ages to master another deep roguelike. Nethack's kitchen sink philosophy is actually a little off-putting at times, though I'll admit it has the potential for some very funny moments.

deepshock
03-16-2008, 12:18 AM
The sheer range of options, and the depth of quests you have in ADOM does it for me, even with the game's ability to constantly destroy you in hilarious ways.

Jeziah
03-16-2008, 12:26 AM
"RPGs are catching up to roguelikes in terms of complexity."
i have to say that i completely disagree :P. My dad likes playing retro-RPGs, and from what i've seen of them, modern RPGs are actually becoming simpler and simpler :|

"ADOM and Angband no longer have greater complexity than the likes of Oblivion though."
Thinking critically, ADOM is WAAAAAAY more complex than Oblivion. think about it...
Also, Oblivion's predecessors (TES I-III) were AMAZINGLY more complex than Oblivion, further prooving that RPGs are in the decline. (truly i have only played TES III [Morrowind], and it was the most extensive 3D-RPG i have ever seen. I actually like it WAAAAAAY better than Oblivion.)

Sradac
03-16-2008, 12:38 AM
"RPGs are catching up to roguelikes in terms of complexity."
i have to say that i completely disagree :P. My dad likes playing retro-RPGs, and from what i've seen of them, modern RPGs are actually becoming simpler and simpler :|


Also, Oblivion's predecessors (TES I-III) were AMAZINGLY more complex than Oblivion, further prooving that RPGs are in the decline. (truly i have only played TES III [Morrowind], and it was the most extensive 3D-RPG i have ever seen. I actually like it WAAAAAAY better than Oblivion.)

this is true, these days cRPG's being being dumbed down so more people will play them. I played morrowind for years and when Oblivion came out i went and bought it and i was kind of dissapointed. "WTF, axes are under the "Blunt" skill and there is no "Axe" skill??" And of course the fact each weapon has 1 attack instead of 3. No more medium armor just light and heavy. No throwing weapons. I'd still play morrowind if it wasnt for the bugs that are STILL there and will crash the game randomly and alot of times in the middle of very important quests/fights.

Grey
03-16-2008, 10:09 AM
"RPGs are catching up to roguelikes in terms of complexity."
i have to say that i completely disagree :P. My dad likes playing retro-RPGs, and from what i've seen of them, modern RPGs are actually becoming simpler and simpler :|

I'm curious as to which ones you mean? I've played a bunch of old RPGs, but generally found them to be lacking the depth of the likes of Morrowind. (Not to say they're not fun of course)


"ADOM and Angband no longer have greater complexity than the likes of Oblivion though."
Thinking critically, ADOM is WAAAAAAY more complex than Oblivion. think about it...
Also, Oblivion's predecessors (TES I-III) were AMAZINGLY more complex than Oblivion, further prooving that RPGs are in the decline. (truly i have only played TES III [Morrowind], and it was the most extensive 3D-RPG i have ever seen. I actually like it WAAAAAAY better than Oblivion.)

Yeah, Oblivion doesn't match Morrowind, for quite a few reasons. It does have some added complexity in the game world though - NPCs that have daily routines etc. The main problem in terms of complexity for both Oblivion and Morrowind I find is the oversimplified interface - click to kill is just awful. ADOM offers a far greater wealth of options when it comes to attacking or dealing with an enemy, and each turn you have to actually *think* about what you're going to do. In the latest TESes you just keep clicking till the enemy dies.

Macros
03-16-2008, 05:25 PM
but generally found them to be lacking the depth of the likes of Morrowind.

Depth? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Morrowind is terrible game, but saying that it has great depth(whatever it means btw.) is a little misunderstanding. I was playing Morrowind for a few days, before I got bored, and I think that two really great things in Morrowind are huge world, and great graphics. In my opinion, if we will omit graphic, Morrowind doesn't really match to some really old crpg's like Ultima VII or Betrayal at Krondor. I haven't tried Oblivion though(my comp won't handle it), but I've heard some good opinions about it, that it's much better than Morrowind.

spectre
03-16-2008, 06:37 PM
This seems to have turned into the TES series discussion (-:
So my 0.25$
@Macross: Oblivion overall feels like a dumbed down Morrowind. There are a few good things (ommiting gfx, since it's obvious), like the enchancement to the skill system (accompanied by cutting their number by roughly 1/3) and the changes to blocking. It has NPC daily routine, but introduces npc "dialogue" that'll make you cringe. So yeah, for every step forward there's two steps backwards.

On the whole, the story in Morrowind seems far better, the gameplay (esp. with mods) also looks better. The ideal TES would be somewhere in between these two.

Back on topic, what's made me play ADOM for the last (damn!) 10 years:
(o) Challenge. I feel like a total arse, but I still can't boast a legit win.
(o) Randomization. Nothig's evere the same. A definite plus for me.
(o) The sheer amount of stuff to do, enough to keep me entertained for all these years.

And yet, there's a lot of stuff I haven't tried yet. Like playing a mindcrafter or a weaponsmith for more than a coupla levels, doing an ultra, etc.

With hindsight, I am very happy that JADE's coming out. Nowadays, I am so spoiled in ADOM, things seldom surprise me. It's almost like wishing for a second "first time". :rolleyes:

EDIT: Must'ave been 'confused' while I wrote the third line from the bottom. Fixed.

Grey
03-16-2008, 06:49 PM
And yet, there's a lot of stuff I haven't tried yet. Like playing a mindcrafter or a weaponsmith fo a few than a coupla levels, doing an ultra, etc.

Yeah, really have to agree on that. In spite of playing for however long with thousands of deaths and a couple of victories there's still a few classes that I've given barely any attention to.


With hindsight, I am very happy that JADE's coming out. Nowadays, I am so spoiled in ADOM, things seldom surprise me. It's almost like wishing for a second "first time". :rolleyes:


It'll be hard to stay non-spoiled for long, but being there when it's released and find new things out for ourselves is going to feel amazing.