The 'treasure hunter' talent sucks.

[gut]

Yep, I said it. It just plain sucks. It wastes two talents right away:
'Alert' Pe +1 will rarely extend your visible radius, and (to my
knowledge) has no other benefit. 'Miser' means a bit more gold, but
gold isn't really hard to come by in ADOM. To compare those two
talents to the benefit you would get from talents like 'quick' and
'very quick' is just laughable.

So how about the 'treasure hunter' talent it's self? Well, it causes
more items to be generated, but aren't there other, more efficient
methods of generating items? Stair hopping in the ID will generate
items very efficiently, especially books, potions and scrolls. Picking
pockets also generates items efficiently. A fluff ball, plus a wand of
trap creation, plus the light spell, can generate hordes of (high
danger level) items, with incredible efficiency.

Of all of the above methods, to quickly generate great items, how
many are really needed? None. Yep, that's what makes me realize that
'treasure hunter' is useless. ID hopping is much better... and I
seldom use that. Pickpocketing is better... and I never use that.
Scorching gremlins is way better... and I never do that either. If all
of these 'item generating' methods are more effective, and I don't
bother with them, then why should I bother with 'treasure hunter'?

If the ID wasn't available from exp. level 1, then yeah, maybe. If the
pickpocketing skill wasn't available at exp. level 1, then OK, I could
see that. If gremlin massacre wasn't available for higher danger level
items, then sure. However, these things are easily available, more
effective, and still seldom used. Which only goes to further expose
'treasure hunter' as mediocre. (I don't mention the casino, as that is
only for the late game.)

The only benefit that I can see to 'treasure hunter', is that it is
passive. It just happens 'on the go' so it takes no effort. This might
be useful for those who dislike using any scumming methods, but how
useful? If you have already started playing with restrictions, you
probably also know how to win without having to rely on powerful
items. Probably, other talents would serve you better, especially in
keeping early game PC's alive.

What does 'treasure hunter' cost? Probably the 'Heir' gift, and some
of those can be really cool. The 'Heir' gift requires 3 starting
talents, and chasing the 'treasure hunter' beast requires 1, so unless
you start with 4 (gnomes suit you?), you miss out.

Even in the best case scenario, you will still have to do without some
of the (possibly) life-saving benefits of other talents. In the early
game, extra speed, PV, DV, and PP's can mean a lot to your survival.
The three talents needed for 'treasure hunter' will cost you these
possible talent lines:

DV - 'Careful' 'Shield Specialist' 'Shield Expert' (Having 4 bonus DV
points is like growing a third hand, and equipping an extra shield in
it. You could also pursue 'Very Careful'.)

Speed - 'Quick' 'Very Quick' 'Greased Lightning' (+2, +3, and +4
respectively. These talents do not just help you to escape danger more
easily. They also enable any PC to safely kill Hotz and gang with
missiles. This means a heap of early game gold, and exp. points.)

PP's - 'Potent Aura' 'Strong Aura' 'Mighty Aura' (+3, +6, and +9
respectively. A grand total of +18 PP's can really help a wizard's
early game survival. It allows them to book cast earlier, and thus
train the Mana stat earlier. Also, if your starting spell is acid
bolt, these can make the difference between being able to cast it once
or twice. Not to mention that these talents open up powerful magic
talents, making them quickly available.

PV - 'Hardy' (3 HP's may not seem like a lot, but how often have you
been taken down to exactly 0 HP's eh?) 'Tough Skin' (Need I even
mention the early-game value of PV points that are not vulnerable to
equipment damage. It does require your To stat to be at least 12
though, so elves may not benefit. 'Iron Skin' (Only if your To stat
is at least 15, so again it's not for elves, and maybe gnomes. Also,
you are now just one step away from being 'immune to pain', one of
the best talents in the game.)

Of course there is the theory of just choosing 'Alert' as your first
talent, then chose talents that actually HELP your PC. The logic being
that you can always get 'treasure hunter' later. The problem with that
(as I see it), is by the time you get finished with choosing the
helpful talents, you are nearing the casino, which renders 'treasure
hunter' completely worthless.

[DeSt]

Main benefit from Alert - Missile Weapon Master. 3/4 of mine winners had it.

Can someone provide exact benefits of Treasure Hunter talent? Items generated on level? Item drops? Total increase?

[Evil Knievel]

The early game survival aspect of many talents might be true, but early game survival in general is not garuanteed. Maybe you save creating 10% of the characters you create anyway. But then, mathematically speaking, we all will continue creating chars up to infinity. Thus, both numbers should be ridicously large in the end, with a factor of even .5 not changing anything. Now, you should think about the possibility, that your personal game expertise might increase faster under less favorable game conditions... And finally, after starting up a new computer, people choosing treasure hunter instead will enter the bug-infested village 10% sooner.
But to be serious: If you start to stick to some kind of strategy in adom (like always choosing treasure hunter), then you will destroy the variety of the game. That's all about adom - you can try anything, and nothing (sane) is totally wrong (Who of you really tried to burn down that animated forest?). You can start up anything, just to see how it goes. Be spontaneous!

[M_bowwarrior]

About talents, is there somewhere a tree of talents in order to know what allow what ?
I've seen a list one day, but it's difficult to find what you want in a list. And a tree is more adequate for this case.

[DeSt]

Improved Guidebook has nice table of talents.

[Silfir]

"If you have already started playing with restrictions, you probably also know how to win without having to rely on powerful items."

Correction. We know how to survive until we get the powerful items we need to rely on. And I have to say, the hassle is eased TREMENDOUSLY if you get 50% more loot. Treasure Hunter is all about preventing hassle. Stair*spit*hopping, gremlin *spit* bombing, pick*spit*pocketing and casino *spit* restocking are all alternatives to get the loot you need, but they are all boring, time-consuming and extraordinarily cheap. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

Besides, if I'm good enough to play with restrictions, I don't need no stinking early game survival talents. I'd much rather have more loot. A good suit of armor obtained early is much more helpful than the PV talents could ever be.

EDIT: The offical Guidebook has an excellent list. The Improved Guidebook might offer some additional code-dived info lazily copy-pasted within the stolen text.

[M_bowwarrior]

EDIT: The offical Guidebook has an excellent list. The Improved Guidebook might offer some additional code-dived info lazily copy-pasted within the stolen text.

yes, an excellent list... not a tree...

no one know where a T could be found ?

[Grey]

The "Improved" Guidebook talent tree is actually quite nice - one of the few things Pavel did that I approve of. It simply takes the manual information and organises it into a big tree chart that is easy to follow. Very handy when considering which talents to go for.

Anyway, back to the original subject, I did do some research on the Treasure Hunter talent a while back:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.adom/browse_frm/thread/8b5e8fc489e9daa6/

As seen from my research it gives around an extra 15% chance that a monster will drop an item when killed (code-diving supposedly says 12.5%). By that I mean if the normal chance is 10% the resultant chance will be 25%. In the early game at least this seems to double item drops. As far as I could tell this included guaranteed drops like bows/arrows from kobolds/raiders (so more chances of a nice stack of slaying or penetrating ammo) and in theory would thus apply later to pick axes from dwarves and eternium armour from chaos knights - all nice to have. More importantly it means double the armour in the early game (extra PV), double scrolls (you'll find which is identify much quicker) and double water (always handy). It also means extra money early game from selling items (when gold is still useful), which can maybe get you access to some nice buys from the black market. Through the game it means a much better chance for all of Gaab'Baay's ingredients early on if going for an ultra, as well as generally more PoGA, SoCRs, etc.

Of course you can get by without. And of course you can use horrible scummy methods for certain items (though I'd say all methods are more of a nuisance - TH at least doubles the effects of gremlin bombing). And of course other talents might be more handy at the very start (I usually choose Long Stride before TH). But in general I want to have this talent by level 12, so that it will still benefit me throughout. I especially want it in time to help me get more blankets and eq for the Tower.

[reich]

I was quite shocked to see recently this talent being declared the best of all on various forums. Until then I was completely unaware of it's existence 'cause I never bothered to take either Miser or Alert, since those seem completely insignificant :rolleyes:

[Ars]

It's all about the ease. I don't want to set up gremlin bombs or stairhop because it's lame and boring. TH is nice, because I don't have to do anything like that. I just hate searching for that AoLS. And an extra chance for things like eternium weapons of penetration is always nice. Sure the game can be easily completed without, but same goes for the other talents too.

I don't always pick it though.

[gut]

Silfir:
> We know how to survive until we get the powerful items
> we need to rely on.

I probably should have presented the list of guaranteed
items in the original post, it was just getting long.
Here is a list, though I probably leave some out.

Frost bolt spellbook and wand, fireball wands, fireproof
blanket, two waterproof blankets, (a whole set of) mithril
armor pieces, Big Punch (heavy, but a one handed weapon
of mass destruction), the Ankh, the Ancient Mummy Wrapping,
the Elemental Guantlets, Ring of the High Kings, wand of
teleportation, infinite potions of booze (beggar juice),
many potions of extra healing, weapons and armor from
Darkforge, Ring of the Master Cat (but only if you are
careful).

My point being, that with such items being guaranteed,
the need to find more becomes a matter of optimization,
rather than need. I think a better chance to survive the
early game, is more rewarding than an improved chance at
future (unneeded) optimizations.

> Treasure Hunter is all about preventing hassle.

Yep. The way I have it figured, that's what it provides;
less hassle. If you have no intention of using any
scummy methods, and feel no worries about surviving the
early-game, then 'treasure hunter' is a valid convenience
feature.

> are all alternatives to get the loot you need, but they
> are all boring

Agreed on all points, but my point was that you don't
need any of those methods either. If one needs extra loot
to win the game (likely you don't), then get the extra
loot in the best way possible. If one doesn't need extra
loot to win (almost everyone, as tactics are much more
important than items) then 'treasure hunter' sucks.

> Besides, if I'm good enough to play with restrictions,
> I don't need no stinking early game survival talents.

Well, I sure do! Stupid stone block traps... *grumble*

Many players roll several PC's to get some feature they
like, such as nice stats, complimentary star sign, or a
particularly valuable starting item. It's annoying to
get smashed right away, and have to re-start the process.
Also, it's tough to put a lot of work into a PC, just to
see them die from not being able to outrun a revenant or
something. Extra speed or HP's can save frustration for
the best of us.

> A good suit of armor obtained early is much more
> helpful than the PV talents

Are you implying that good suits of armor can only be
found, if one chooses the 'treasure hunter' talent?
Perhaps you imply that good suits of armor are to be
guaranteed, if one chooses the 'treasure hunter' talent?

Nope on both counts. One who hunts treasure may indeed
find themselves lacking in armor, and one who doesn't
may indeed be rolling in it. In my 'no hunt treasure'
games, I find there to be no shortage of decent armor
pieces. I don't think it is a good bargain, to give up
immediate (life-saving) benefits, in exchange for possible
future ones.

Darren:
> As seen from my research it gives around an extra 15%
> chance that a monster will drop an item when killed
> (code-diving supposedly says 12.5%). By that I mean
> if the normal chance is 10% the resultant chance will
> be 25%. In the early game at least this seems to double
> item drops.

I intentionally did not post figures, because they can
mislead (un-intentionally).

Following the link I find:

> For each I took a sample set of 400 kills. Each character
> ended up at level 9.

> Treasure Hunter: 98 items, 58 corpses, 20 piles of gold
> Non-TH: 57 items, 59 corpses, 6 piles of gold

This test does not prove to me how good 'treasure hunter'
is, it proves how horrible it is. WHAT? 98 items vs. 57!
Surly I can see how good that is, right? Wrong. Look at
the effort that went into getting those 41 extra items.
If given a choice, between doing THAT, or doing without,
wouldn't you do without? I certainly would.

Granted, you are going to kill 400 monsters sooner or later,
so you can get those 41 items (eventually) without the extra
effort. I wonder though, how much extra effort it would take
to generate those same 41 items via ID stair hopping? I say
10 minutes tops. That would mean 10 minutes in the ID, is the
equivelant of the 'treasure hunter' talent, up to the 400
kill mark. (By then, I'm usually well past Dwarftown, even
if not playing for turns.) The main use of 'treasure hunter',
is as a convenience feature, for those who dislike scumming.

> More importantly it means double the armour in the early game

No it doesn't, and shame on you : )

> double scrolls (you'll find which is identify much quicker)

No, it doesn't.

> and double water (always handy).

No, it doesn't. It only means double, if you completely ignore
all items not dropped by monsters.

> extra money early game

No shortage of that yellow stuff in ADOM.

> Through the game it means a much better chance for all of
> Gaab'Baay's ingredients early on if going for an ultra,

Much better chance? I don't know about that (as to my
knowledge, it only helps with item drops), but I will
agree about the boar skull.

> TH at least doubles the effects of gremlin bombing

I don't think it helps with pickpocketing, but I'm
not in a possition to debate pickpocketing : )

> help me get more blankets and eq for the Tower

There is a guaranteed blanket from Thrundarr, which
decreases the need for more. Just remember to doom
yourself before going in ; )

[Silfir]

"Frost bolt spellbook and wand, fireball wands, fireproof
blanket, two waterproof blankets, (a whole set of) mithril
armor pieces, Big Punch (heavy, but a one handed weapon
of mass destruction), the Ankh, the Ancient Mummy Wrapping,
the Elemental Guantlets, Ring of the High Kings, wand of
teleportation, infinite potions of booze (beggar juice),
many potions of extra healing, weapons and armor from
Darkforge, Ring of the Master Cat (but only if you are
careful)."

The majority of these so-called "guaranteed items" are found in the early midgame, not the early game. Yes, Darkforge raiding requires only a blink dog corpse or a mindcrafter to give you awesome weapons and armor, and a skilled player can execute the Darkforge raid without getting brutally slaughtered by the steel golems.

Yes, you can win the game with the items mentioned. It's about as fun as eating hay in a needlestack, but you can - good point.

"Are you implying that good suits of armor can only be
found, if one chooses the 'treasure hunter' talent?
Perhaps you imply that good suits of armor are to be
guaranteed, if one chooses the 'treasure hunter' talent?"

Neither, and it's a bit insulting of you to assume that just for your own convenience. I'm implying that Treasure Hunter gives you a higher chance on early-found good armor, as shown below.

"[Insert pretty horrid reasoning about the maths]"

57 versus 98: First of all, you get 42 more items, which is an increase of 73%. And second, stop with the ID stairhopping. YES WE KNOW YOU GET ASSLOADS OF ITEMS WITH ID STAIRHOPPING. OR GREMLIN BOMBING, OR PICKPOCKETING. The entire point was that we DON'T WANT to do ANY of that, so we are discussing whether Treasure Hunter is a good replacement. 73% more loot makes it an EXCEPTIONAL replacement.

"> extra money early game

No shortage of that yellow stuff in ADOM."

Once you reach the Casino, yes. Before that, money can be an issue if you find shops with items you profit from or need divine favour. It's generally easy, if time-consuming, to accumulate money by killing monsters and taking their stuff, though, making Miser low priority. The benefit of Treasure Hunter is the overall additional treasure.

"> Through the game it means a much better chance for all of
> Gaab'Baay's ingredients early on if going for an ultra,

Much better chance? I don't know about that (as to my
knowledge, it only helps with item drops), but I will
agree about the boar skull."

And the wand of monster creation, and the scroll of danger, which are both items that have to be dropped randomly or wished for. The farmer corpse is easy to get. The potion of cure corruption is a special case: If you manage to get at least one chaotic creature to Guth'Alak, thanks to holy water, Remove Curse or Fire Bolt spell or Cooking and/or Food Preservation skill, it's trivial. If not, you have to find one randomly, and that's at least as hard as the scroll of danger.

I won't even start with the AoLS. You know how rare it is to find one randomly.



If you think in terms of receiving "guaranteed" benefits, then Treasure Hunter is indeed useless, as it doesn't *guarantee* anything. If your goal is to minimize risks for a modest gain, then you will forgo Treasure Hunter for the increases in HP and PV, or Speed and DV early. If you don't mind a little more risk in the early game, you will get Treasure Hunter so you have an overall easier time with the game thanks to the additional stuff found.

The thing with surviving the early game is that it's much less hassle to just try your luck in a straight UD dive with several characters than to do ID:1 to slowly build up one character. If my task is "Take this character and survive" then I will play MUCH more carefully than I usually do, and if I absolutely have to, I will give up Treasure Hunter. But these days, if I do play ADOM, I want to go for an ultra - and for that, I want Treasure Hunter because I know I'll need as much loot as I can get and I still don't want to use scumming.

[Grey]

gut:
> My point being, that with such items being guaranteed,
> the need to find more becomes a matter of optimization,
> rather than need. I think a better chance to survive the
> early game, is more rewarding than an improved chance at
> future (unneeded) optimizations.

It's an interesting balance certainly - I just personally don't find the other talents to be much use in the early game. Getting useful PV from them requires decent toughness, which might mean good survivability anyway. Speed has no guarantee of making a difference in a fight, though I do always choose Long Stride before Treasure Hunter in case I need to make an escape (more efficient than Quick in that respect).

Of course I'm arguing here that TH gives some extra chance of survivability early on with the right equipment finds, and you're arguing that a little extra PV or speed might make a difference in certain moments. Both are down to luck. There's no way of quantifying which gives better survival rates, and it also comes down very much to playstyle. For me I don't think the extra PV or speed would help much - with ultra careful play they aren't needed. Thus I find the extra early equipment is more useful, and that it also benefits more in the long run. In particular it's finding the right equipment that usually makes me decide to move on to the next area of the game (I won't do the puppy cave till I have some okay armour for instance).

> If one doesn't need extra
> loot to win (almost everyone, as tactics are much more
> important than items) then 'treasure hunter' sucks.

'Sucks' is a little strong there, surely? Extra items are still useful - can even mean some very nice lucky finds. Plus the extra loot can make the difference between winning and losing, or at least make the process a little easier. Even extra water is simply nice to have (holy water is possibly my favourite item in the game).

> Many players roll several PC's to get some feature they
> like, such as nice stats, complimentary star sign, or a
> particularly valuable starting item. It's annoying to
> get smashed right away, and have to re-start the process.

VD1&2 till you're level 10. It's guaranteed to make you survivable for everything to come. Take everything slowly and there's no reason to die, expcept for a very unlucky stone block or pit viper trap - for those there's no guarantee of aid from other talents (plus TH can still help). Apart from extremely bad luck there really is no reason to die in the game - it's all about slowly building yourself up. If you never put yourself in a place of risk then you have no need for those protective talents. For those who like wilder and quicker play then maybe they have a use.

> Granted, you are going to kill 400 monsters sooner or later,
> so you can get those 41 items (eventually) without the extra
> effort. I wonder though, how much extra effort it would take
> to generate those same 41 items via ID stair hopping?

Don't disgust me with that question :P By the way, just checked how many kills I tend to make in a game - seems to be around 10k average for a full game (highest 16k with a failed ULE, lowest 1600 with my 25k turns speedrun). That's 1500 items. Debatable how much use that is, but I'm willing to bet there'll be some very nice stuff worth more than any other talent in all that loot.

> No, it doesn't. It only means double, if you completely ignore
> all items not dropped by monsters.

Which is the majority of the early items found - for me at least. Maybe not if you don't use TH :P Even counting shop items, quest rewards, special finds and general floor items TH still gives an extra 50% I'd say in the early game. That's more spellbooks for priests/wizards (extremely useful early on), more chance of a good shield, higher probablility of a good ego weapon, and more utility items in general.

>> extra money early game
>
> No shortage of that yellow stuff in ADOM.

Can you read the bit that says early game? I mean pre-si. In particular the UD is a huge goldmine. And even before then the puppy vault often gives nice piles of rewards that can make the difference between getting Detect Traps early on or not (a priority for me).

> Much better chance? I don't know about that (as to my
> knowledge, it only helps with item drops), but I will
> agree about the boar skull.

Well, even if the chance isn't greatly improved (pickpocketing does make TH less of interest for the light ingredients) it still helps. Trying to get all the ingredients early on can be a big hassle, and personally I never use scummy methods to get them (other than pool-sipping for an AoLS of course - note that I have not mentioned it as an argument for TH, because very very rarely does the talent help).

> There is a guaranteed blanket from Thrundarr, which
> decreases the need for more. Just remember to doom
> yourself before going in ; )

Is that guaranteed? I thought it was one possible set of rewards. And more is always useful - I'm sure you've seen 2 blankets burn in there before ever reaching the top floor.

By the way, one other thing I'll point out is I never TP raid DarkForge, so TH is also very helpful for finding some decent adamantium armour and weapons early on, which can make a big difference to surviving the teens. I especially tend to get great item drops in the dwarven graveyard.

[gut]

Silfir, there are so many things wrong with this,
I hardly know where to start.

> Neither, and it's a bit insulting of you to assume

I was being silly there to make a point. The statement
was stupid, but the point is valid. The 'treasure
hunter' talent gives nothing but an increased chance
for item drops, and you won't see big benefits from
that in the early-game. If you kill 100 monsters,
you will probably wind up with an extra ~10 items.

> "[Insert pretty horrid reasoning about the maths]"

Mine, or Grey's? Yes, mine are wretched, but grey's
are on track.

> 57 versus 98: First of all, you get 42 more items

Funny enough, I actually wrote '42' the first time,
and almost posted that. It is indeed '41'.

> which is an increase of 73%.

You have to follow links to really understand it,
that's one reason I didn't list numbers from the start.
Grey explains it in his post, but it is in context in
the link, and makes more sense. To summarize, it does
double the item drops of killed monsters in the early
game.

> we are discussing whether Treasure Hunter is a good
> replacement.

We are discussing whether 'treasure hunter' sucks. My
position is that it does, because it is unneeded. Reason
one is because there are plenty of fine items to be found
without it (ADOM 1.0.0 didn't even have talents, and I
never went without). Reason two is because the benefits of
the talent (up to ~400 kills) can be completely replaced
by ~10 minutes of stair hopping.

Which brings us back to reason one again, you don't need
it. If you have a choice between spending ~10 minutes stair
hopping (to generate 41 extra items), or not, and you chose
'not' because of how useless it would be, doesn't that say
something about 'treasure hunter' as a talent.

I will repost what I typed earlier:
If you have no intention of using any scummy methods, and
feel no worries about surviving the early-game, then
'treasure hunter' is a valid convenience feature.

> Once you reach the Casino, yes. Before that, money can be

Again, I was reffering to stair hopping. If one isn't OK
with the guaranteed crime fighting cash rewards (~6000),
they can use stair hopping to aquire as much as they want.
On ID levels 6 and 7, it's pretty safe, and the gold comes
in ~200 gp stacks.

> And the wand of monster creation, and the scroll of danger

The wand isn't rare, at least I usually find a few. The
scroll is rare, but considering that it is rare, how likely
is it that you will have one dropped. You only get a certain
number of kills (without scumming) so only a certain number
of extra drops.There are better ways, like the ID, casino,
so on.

> I won't even start with the AoLS.

I will : ) How many kills do you have, when meeting Khelly.
You will get ~10 extra items per 100 kills. I hope in that
mess of 100 extra items, there is that amulet. Otherwise
you have to pool-sip with the rest of us.

Grey:
> Getting useful PV from them requires decent toughness,

It requires To 12 to get 1 PV point, To 15 to get 2 points.
Even elves can often start with To 12, and 1 PV is useful.
The big benefits (immune to pain) come by stacking talents,
you get there a lot earlier (in time for the ToEF) by
saying no to 'treasure hunter'.

> Speed has no guarantee of making a difference in a fight

The more you have, the closer you come to that guarantee.
+2 *can* be a life-saver, but +5 or more is better. All
the more reason to skip the worthless 'alert' and 'miser'.

> TH gives some extra chance of survivability early on
> with the right equipment finds

~10 items per 100 kills does not impress me. I can get ~10
items in the ID in two minutes (which I won't bother with).

> you're arguing that a little extra PV or speed might
> make a difference

Some think 'raven' is the most powerful star sign, just because
of the speed boost. With the speed talents, you can now chose
the 'candle' star sign and still have big speed. That makes
for a super PC, right out of the gate. Of course, if you pursue
the worthless 'treasure hunter' talent, you will have to wait
untill reaching exp. level 6, or 9 before ejoying that speed.

> with ultra careful play they aren't needed

I will concede that 'treasure hunter' also has value for the
ultra-conservative playstyle.

> 'Sucks' is a little strong there, surely? Extra items are still
> useful

Yep, very strong. To fit the parameters of 'sucks', the talent
must be seen as near worthless. As I see it, it only has value
for those that have no worries of surviving the early-game, even
if using a weak race/class combo. I'm not included in that list,
not nearly. Items are easily aquired in other ways, if one feels
the need for extra.

> expcept for a very unlucky stone block

Hardy, Extremely Hardy.

> how many kills I tend to make in a game

After reaching the casino, does one really need *more* items?
Befor the casino, your kill list isn't so bloated (at least
mine isn't). One tends to clear most temples and greater vaults
after the casino. How many of those kills came before you had
access to the ID? None.

The 'treasure hunter' talent is for those that won't scum,
and also have no worries of early-game survival. As I see it,
that is all.

> That's more spellbooks
<snip>
> good shield,
<snip>
> good ego weapon
<snip>
> more utility items in general.

All that, from an extra ~10 items per 100 kills? You must kill
a lot of early-game monsters. I don't think I kill *that* many.

> extra money early game

Stair hop.

> Is that [blanket] guaranteed?

Actually, I think class has something to do with it. I can't
remember ever not getting the blanket.

> And more is always useful

Agreed, but 'treasure hunter' is of limited use, and falls
short of other methods like ID and pickpocketing.

> TH is also very helpful for finding some decent adamantium armour

What danger level is adamantium armor again? You have to kill
several hundred monsters in that danger level, to have a decent
shot at that, even with 'treasure hunter'.

[Silfir]

"> we are discussing whether Treasure Hunter is a good
> replacement.

We are discussing whether 'treasure hunter' sucks. My
position is that it does, because it is unneeded."

That's your definition of "sucking"? If a talent sucks because you can go without it then all talents suck. Discussion ended.

And I repeat, stop bringing up the scumming methods. We know they exist. We know they make Treasure Hunter obsolete, that has been crystal clear from the beginning. I thought the point was that we don't want to use them, so we get Treasure Hunter?

[Frankie]

why killing monsters? you still can complete the game with 0 xp.
killing sucks)

don't take it personal, gut, i just _really_ can't understand what are u tryin to prove.
going for TH is a waste of 3 talents? or exploiting TH equals scummin tactics? or what?

[Grey]

gut:
> The wand isn't rare, at least I usually find a few. The
> scroll is rare, but considering that it is rare, how likely
> is it that you will have one dropped. You only get a certain
> number of kills (without scumming) so only a certain number
> of extra drops.There are better ways, like the ID, casino,
> so on.

I like to get it all sorted before the casino personally. However I do consider pickpocketing far more useful in that regard, and with a source of dooming getting the boar skull isn't a great challenge.

> It requires To 12 to get 1 PV point, To 15 to get 2 points.
> Even elves can often start with To 12, and 1 PV is useful.
> The big benefits (immune to pain) come by stacking talents,
> you get there a lot earlier (in time for the ToEF) by
> saying no to 'treasure hunter'.

Requires numerous talents itself. Getting to Steel Skin usually means getting to the point you have decent armour anyway, unless you start with several talents (in which case both it and Treasure Hunter are quite possible). It becomes very outdated very quickly. The 2 PV early on is nice to have if you otherwise have zero, but soon enough you find a few points from various sources and it becomes fairly irrelevant. Even before then it's not entirely life or death deciding - you just have to be more careful. I don't consider Immune to Pain worth getting at all.

> Some think 'raven' is the most powerful star sign, just because
> of the speed boost. With the speed talents, you can now chose
> the 'candle' star sign and still have big speed. That makes
> for a super PC, right out of the gate. Of course, if you pursue
> the worthless 'treasure hunter' talent, you will have to wait
> untill reaching exp. level 6, or 9 before ejoying that speed.

I don't think Raven is that useful personally. Speed in general is not a big issue for me, especially since I tend to be strained a lot early on. With Long Stride you can drop items and leg it when necessary, and there's also the low HP trick. Unless you're an archer or spellcaster I don't see speed helping much in regular combat (most things die before the 10&#37; extra speed makes a difference), and if you are an archer or spellcaster you usually don't need extra help killing things.

> I will concede that 'treasure hunter' also has value for the
> ultra-conservative playstyle.

Ergo it does not "suck" :P Especially when you consider that the ultra-conservative playstyle is the best playstyle ;)

> As I see it, it only has value
> for those that have no worries of surviving the early-game, even
> if using a weak race/class combo.

Personally I think I survive more with the weak ones, because I'm way more careful than normal with them... Anyway, the talent also has use for those that will happily roll through lots of characters till they hit on one that survives (which quite a lot of players do). Though you might say that the other talents could make their chars more survivable they are quite happy to have the unlucky ones die and benefit more from a long term talent like Treasure Hunter with the surviving characters that got a good start.

>> expcept for a very unlucky stone block
>
> Hardy, Extremely Hardy.

Do you ever actually choose those worthless talents? By level 5 they're quite insignificant. Choosing them on the off chance of an unlucky stone block is just ludicrous. And even so they might not save you.

> After reaching the casino, does one really need *more* items?
> Befor the casino, your kill list isn't so bloated (at least
> mine isn't). One tends to clear most temples and greater vaults
> after the casino. How many of those kills came before you had
> access to the ID? None.

After casino there's also the BDC, which is far better for items. However I do tend to make plenty of kills before then, and lesser vaults especially yield large heaps of items for me. Anyway, I wasn't talking about "need", but "want". I don't think you can talk about any need in ADOM - it's possible to survive with almost no items at all. My point was rather that over the course of the game those 3 talent choices will at least net you a few useful items that generally are worth more than any other 3 talents.

> All that, from an extra ~10 items per 100 kills? You must kill
> a lot of early-game monsters. I don't think I kill *that* many.

A bit more than 10, but yeah it doesn't look much. However when you consider it as 50% more spellbooks it looks a little better, non? Can make the difference between finding a couple of offensives or not.

EDIT: Just checked our Cicero char (who is still pining for attention) and by the time he reached the HMV, at level 13, he had over 800 kills. That'd mean maybe 120 extra items. Pretty decent in my opinion - bound to have been some handy stuff in there (and his eq was very good at that stage I'll point out, including an adamantium shield, SLBs and a battle axe of penetration).

>> extra money early game
>
> Stair hop.

I told you not to say those words! Seriously, before killing Hotzy I generally rely on black market sales for cash - all the junk I find goes there in the hope of getting Detect Traps at a reasonably early stage. Sometimes I don't kill Hotzy until way late in the game (since I might progress from the region before I can kill him easily) so there's really no guarantee of decent early cash at all (I almost never do Kranach).

>> And more is always useful
>
> Agreed, but 'treasure hunter' is of limited use, and falls
> short of other methods like ID and pickpocketing.

Limited doesn't equal either none or sucky :P I also disagree that it falls short of those methods, since it means far less effort if it happens to work. You can always do those methods on top of what you get from TH to maximise gain further. And for many items other than blankets TH is not as limited by the weight or danger level of the object.

> What danger level is adamantium armor again? You have to kill
> several hundred monsters in that danger level, to have a decent
> shot at that, even with 'treasure hunter'.

Adamantium weapons and shields can be generated in the UD, which often has several vaults. I said before it's usually a goldmine for me. Dwarven graveyard can generate the likes of dragon scale mails, and there's a fair few kills to be had in there. High Kings dungeon is another high kill area with decent danger level (enough for adamantium armour). Like I said, I normally get very decent eq before DarkForge, so obviously I'm killing enough critters in these danger levels to have it generated normally or to have TH kick in and help.

By the way, I do love these sort of ridiculously long-winded and pointless debates :)

[Silfir]

Meh. The problem with this kind of debate is the endless walls of text they tend to produce, and subdebates that are provoked, and the endless repetitions (such as gut's failure to stop mentioning ID stairhopping and gremlin bombing or what have you.)

You know, we have choices other than "Maximize loot gain at the cost of fun" and "Minimize loot gain for minor early game advantages". It's "Good loot gain without any kind of effort." I'll take that.

[gut]

Silfir:
> That's your definition [unneeded] of "sucking"?

Yes, I have the literacy skill of a turnip. I expressed my thoughts
more clearly with this:

"To fit the parameters of 'sucks', the talent must be seen as near
worthless".

That is my definition of 'sucking' in this case.

> And I repeat, stop bringing up the scumming methods

I feel that you are missing my point. I am not advising anyone to item
scum as opposed to chosing 'treasure hunter'. I am claiming both methods
to be (I won't say unneeded) *far* less useful than is popularly
believed. Plenty of items occur naturally. I believe that almost every
player would benefit more from *other* starting talents.

Frankie:
> why killing monsters?

More damage from using the word unneeded. Please refer to my other
(better) definition.

> can't understand what are u tryin to prove.

That treasure hunter is nearly useless for nearly all players, when
compared to the alternatives. *If* you play with the restriction of
'no scumming', and *if* you have no worries about early-game survival,
then this doesn't apply to you. For the other 99.9% of us, it does.

> going for TH is a waste of 3 talents?

See, you did understand.

> or exploiting TH equals scummin tactics? or what?

Well no, not that. The first one : )

Grey:
> Getting to Steel Skin usually means getting

The 'steel skin' talent is unneeded to reach the 'immune to pain' talent.
All you need is 'hardy', 'tough skin', 'iron skin', and the To and Wi
stats at 15. All easily achieved before the ToEF, but not if one pursues
'treasure hunter'.

> The 2 PV early on is nice to have

I place a very high value on PV, even up into the teens.

> I don't consider Immune to Pain worth getting at all.

We just don't agree on that. These talents don't give much, if viewed
from an later-game perspective, or from a highly item scummed
perspective. These talents *do* give you what you need, when you need
it. Extra PV and HP's at the very start, and an extra source of -fire
for the tower. This is useful because at this point in the game, the
non-item-scummer usually has only 3 sources: Elemental guantlets,
RotHK's, and the (guaranteed?) -fire ring from Thrundarr.

> I don't think Raven is that useful personally

Boy I do. As you mention, speed is somewhat managable. If you like to be
slower, that's easy... but if you like to be faster, that's a different
matter. There aren't many ways to increase one's speed in the early game,
and a few points *can* save lives.

> Ergo it does not "suck"

Having value for a small percentage of players (those that use *no* item
scumming methods, and *also* have no worries about survival), is not
enough to keep it from sucking. The 'strong legs' talent would be useful
for a larger % of players, considering that it would at least be useful
for all monks.

> Personally I think I survive more with the weak ones,

I don't. If given a choice between an anemic PC with no survival talents,
and a powerful PC with extra PV/HP's, I think I would survive better
with the uber-PC.

> talent also has use for those that will happily roll
> through lots of characters till they hit on one that survives

Ahh, the Darwinian playstyle : ) I think that even those PC's would
benefit more from early 'immune to pain' and 'greased lightning', rather
than ~10 more item drops per 100 kills.

> Do you ever actually choose those worthless [HP's] talents?

There was a time when I thought the same of them. Then I died from going
down to 0 HP's... and then it happened again... and then it happened
again... and then...

Seriously, I view them as PV against magic, help for the tower,
protection from criticals, and trap/vortex protection to some extent. I
think the fact that you can chose them early (if you wish), is their
main value.

> I don't think you can talk about any need in ADOM

More damage from using the word 'need'. Please replace the word 'need'
with the concept of '~10 more item drops per 100 kills, is near
worthless'. I just didn't feel like typing it all out every time, but
shortening it actually caused more typing : )

> over the course of the game those 3 talent choices will
> at least net you a few useful items

It's hard for me to evaluate something like that over the course of the
game. An item found at exp. level 10 may be great, but if found at exp.
level 50, it's not so great. Any finds after the casino are greatly
de-valued in my mind. Any finds after the ID is available, are also
de-valued. If you are a very skilled player, that is playing with the
'no scumming' restriction, then maybe it's different.

> by the time he [Cicero] reached the HMV, at level 13, he
> had over 800 kills. That'd mean maybe 120 extra items

I believe you just made my point for me : ) Cicero did not get the
'treasure hunter' talent until reaching exp. level 9, and he was only at
exp. level 13 upon reaching the HMV. This means that he missed out on
most of those extra items, and was still quite well equipped. Other
talents just serve better. I might also mention that Cicero's first
incarnation died, he didn't survive the early game : )

> I might progress from the region before I can kill him [Hotz] easily

This is *way* off topic, but any PC that can throw a rock can kill Hotz
very easily.

> there's really no guarantee of decent early cash

Yes, there is, but I won't mention it : ) Alternatively, you can sell ore
(and sometimes gems) from PC:2. Just don't sell until your a member.

> Limited doesn't equal either none or sucky

Perhaps I should have typed unneeded?

> it means far less effort if it happens to work

Agreed on that from the begining. It's a nice convenience feature, for
uber-skilled (or ultra-conservative) players that play with the 'no
scumming' restriction.

> You can always do those methods on top of what you get from TH

Yes, I agree that you can always get more items, regardless of talents.
I keep wanting to type 'unneeded': ) My point is that *extra* items
(sprinkled throughout the game, usually not from the start) are
*extremely* less valuable than most people think. Compared to the
alternative benefits, TH just plain sucks.

It's like playing the lottery. You spend something that has real value,
in exchange for a chance to win big. It's just not a good deal. Don't
give up real benefits for big dreams. If the extra items you recieve
happen to include an AoLS, then congratulations, you won. The other
times, you pool-sip with the rest of us. Cicero had to, despite getting
TH at exp. level 9.

> it's [the UD] usually a goldmine for me

Me too, when I do it... with or without TH. I think the difference means
so little as to be useless.

> Dwarven graveyard can generate the likes of dragon scale mails,

All you get from TH, is an increased chance of powerful items, but you
have a decent chance to start with. Again, it's the difference that is
important, and the difference means little. There is a possibility, that
TH could mean the difference between something good and junk. However,
considering how rarely I suffer from equipment deprival in my non-TH
games, I think it most often means a negligible difference. If good items
were hard to come by, then I wouldn't say that TH sucks, but they aren't,
so it does.

> I do love these sort of ridiculously long-winded and pointless debates

Agreed again : ) Tune in next week, when I declare PoGA's over-rated : )

Silfir...second verse:
> the endless walls of text they tend to produce

I hate playing with the '20 lines' restriction, but I can if you like : )

> such as gut's failure to stop mentioning ID stairhopping

Might I add, that is only in response to (as I see it) other's failure
to stop implying how *hard* items (even gold!) are to come by in ADOM.
It's just simply not true. Only in the case of restricted games, is it
true.

> It's "Good loot gain without any kind of effort."

That's an OK definition, but to my eyes it's more accurate to say:
"A bit useful for the uber-skilled... but only in restricted games."

[Lich]

Well, I looked at the YAVP posts, someone's archer had to wish for an amulet of light in the Mana Temple, and then there's my character who had to wish for wands of door creation. Those wishes were made pretty late in the game so the kill list would have been pretty long.

My character had treasure hunter, and the other one might have had it as well, but the point is, in those situations, the items would have been much more useful than a couple points of DV, PV, or speed. Of course, had those characters not chosen treasure hunter, the added chance of the killed monsters generating the wand or the amulet from getting treasure hunter would have been very significant, especially considering that those items were not particularly rare or valuable.

Besides, I don't think any character would complain about having too many potions of booze, holy water, or scrolls of identify. The treasure hunter talent is not a must-have (is any talent?), but I would rank it pretty high on the scale of usefulness.

[Molach]

I'll throw out my opinions as well, looks like the Gut is all alone here.

The TH talent is a matter of convenience, not life-or-death.
Some other talents are life-and-death for semi-weak characters.
The prereqs for TH are useless 99% of the time (apart from missile weapon mastery, I guess)

I'll agree that "The 'treasure hunter' is unneeded", not that it sucks.

[Silfir]

Killing monsters at all is gambling, if you so will - I mean, the XP gain is fixed, but getting items is a game of chance. Treasure Hunter just improves the odds. Is that improvement worth three talents, considering that the other effects are largely useless? For me, it is, because I kill monsters to get the items I want. I don't WANT to restrict myself to guaranteed items or artifacts, even though it is possible to do so, or resort to scumming tactics.

[gut]

Lich:
> archer had to wish for an amulet of light in the Mana Temple, and
> then there's my character who had to wish for wands of door creation

It's hard to believe that no wands of door creation were generated in
a whole ADOM game. Call me a skeptic, but I think that's just too
improbable. As for no amulet of light before the Mana Temple, I don't
believe that either. I will not mention non-wish (and guaranteed)
related ways of generating those items, because it bothers Silfir : )

I would say it is possible, that the players made a mistake at some
point, and got their equipment roasted. In such a case, TH wouldn't
have helped in the slightest. Four wands of door creation can be
melted as easily as one.

> complain about having too many potions of booze, holy water, or
> scrolls of identify

Do you see?! It is this notion, that 'items are hard to come by', that
causes me to constantly refer to other (scummy) methods of generating
items. My dear Lich, all the items you shall ever desire, are right
before you. You need no talent to provide them. If you need them, *get*
them, in the most effective way possible. If you don't, then don't bother
with them, talent-wise or other-wise.

Moloch
> I'll agree that "The 'treasure hunter' is unneeded", not that it sucks

But I'm trying to prove that it sucks : )

Silfir:
> Is that improvement worth three talents, considering that the other
> effects are largely useless?

If your skills are such, that you consider an extra starting +9 speed,
or 'immune to pain' useless, then yes.

> I don't WANT to restrict myself to guaranteed items

You keep saying 'I'. The TH talent may be more useful to you than most.
I say repeatedly that if one is uber-skilled, and hates scumming, then
TH is a feature of convenience. That doesn't keep the talent from
sucking though, as there are few players in that catagory. I honestly
put it in the same catagory as 'strong legs'.

Let me approach this from a different angle. Go to the HoF, and choose
a random (winner's) flg. Scroll down to the equipment list, not the worn
items, but the 'stuff'. I put forth the idea that 95% of this is junk.
The game could have been completed *just* as easily, without all of these
(sometimes) 10,000's of stones of junk. That's what I'm thinking when
I'm saying 'unneeded items', that you won't notice much difference at
any point in the game, if you don't have all that useless stuff.

If the junk was needed, it wouldn't have been there, it would have been
used. The fact that it is left over, rather proves it's uselessness.
Some items like -death amulets are understandable, because they are
sometimes needed (and here is where I won't mention *other* ways of
getting those specific benefits). Most of the stuff is worthless, and
just serves to weigh one down. I think 'more items' does not = great, or
even good, over 90% of the time it just = more bloat.

Of course, one never knows what is needed, and what isn't, but 'being
prepared' doesn't account for (almost) universal inventory bloat. I
have noticed in our shared games, having to constantly drop heaps of
worthless items (heap of 2 grizzly bear corpses!). Getting more items
is just redundancy most of the time, and when it's not, the gains are
mostly marginal. If you hit the AoLS grand prize, then congrats.

[Elone]

Meow. Men...

[meh]

While TH does help in getting rare items, I think it's main use is creating more of the items that you want to have many of. The extra stat increasing potions alone make it worthwhile IMO. Then there are potions of water, scrolls of defense and protection and slaying missiles just to name a few.

[Soirana]

in past i posted arguments both pro and contra TH.

In general TH is better early on. If i understand right killing 100 rats will give you 10-15 extra items. Killing 100 blue dragons give you nothing.

Overall TH:
early on you need 200-300 kills with TH to feel real difference. if you kill 300 mobs you rolling anyway. on other hand with conservative tactics i can reach with any race class combo (and as bit of luck).

ToEF: honestly i do not need any talents to go through. Extra wand of stunning with some booze or ring of ice will do difference although. And i've been on 4k gremlins mark without seeing ring of ice (even with TH).

later on: i usually find having not much to do with 2-3 talents anyway, so taking TH is not a loss and it serves as supply of water, booze and scrolls.

TH vs starting talents:
i do not find any talents being much of help. Or rather not being replaceable.
Speed - quick scouting in areas of herb growth (PC, dusty dungeon, upper CoC) gives you good DX(at least 30 with sickness) which gives some speed boost. Throw in long stride and you have enough. Installing tp control and fetching guaranteed wand is more important escape way anyway.
PV - quick descend to dwarftown, purchase smithing instead of detect traps, kill some dwarfes for pickaxes (nice use for TH), smith for anvil and forge that PV yourself.

Conclusion: I think everyone should try wit and without TH. Somehow i landed on TH side (untill i roll bard with three starting talents anyway). But i am huge fan of missile weapon master anyway.

[Silfir]

Not that this is related in any way to the topic at hand: Four wands of monster creation are not as easy to get destroyed as one. Wands don't stack. You have to have ALL FOUR wands chosen by the game to be destroyed, which is a lot rarer to happen.

"> Is that improvement worth three talents, considering that the other
> effects are largely useless?

If your skills are such, that you consider an extra starting +9 speed,
or 'immune to pain' useless, then yes."

I'm sorry for being unclear, I never intended to imply that the Speed talents are useless. They aren't, they rock. The PV talents less so, but that is not the topic at hand. I was talking about the other effects of taking the Treasure Hunter talent, i. e. increased gold drops, +1 perception and Missile Weapon Master possibility - the latter isn't actually that useless, as Soirana has pointed out.

"I think 'more items' does not = great, or even good, over 90&#37; of the time it just = more bloat."

If you can carry more items without burdening yourself, is there any reason why you shouldn't do so? If anything, they help protect your valuable items from being destroyed. Sure, if you don't want to train strength, you should strive to keep yourself below burdened, but again, not the topic at hand.

"You keep saying 'I'. The TH talent may be more useful to you than most.
I say repeatedly that if one is uber-skilled, and hates scumming, then
TH is a feature of convenience. That doesn't keep the talent from
sucking though, as there are few players in that catagory. I honestly
put it in the same catagory as 'strong legs'."

WE KNOW YOU THINK IT SUCKS. You know I think it doesn't suck. Tell me what you mean by "sucking" and we can continue discussing that definition.

From what I can see, you seem to think the term "sucking" regarding talents is dependant on the amount of people for whom the talent should be seen as useless. I have trouble with that view. If anything, if skilled players of the game think a talent is convenient for them it should be an indication that it does not, in fact, suck (skilled players are people too! Well, most of them, anyway). The higher chance to get helpful items earlier means that it is nowhere near useless for beginners, as you seem to claim. Depending on playstyle and character (Orcish barbarians have NO need for any of the Skin talents, wizards could want more spellbooks) Hardy + PV, or the speed talents, are probably the better bet for early game survival, but that point was made clear long ago. It still doesn't make Treasure Hunter useless. Intermediate players, who know enough about the early game to survive most of the time, often switch to Treasure Hunter because they want those items, and they oftentimes get something worth the investment - good drops in the early game make the later, as of yet unknown, parts a lot less stressful.

Sucking starts (in my most humbly humble opinion of humbleriffic humbleness) when a talent is useless to everyone, as, say, that talent that gives +1 to Appearance I don't even want to bother looking up the name of, or Affinity to Thrown Hammers and Axes. Treasure Hunter is not useless to anybody except gut.

@Elone: We know. We can't help it.

[Molach]

By the way, I once did an experiment and concluded that pickpocketing is not affected by TH. I am a known pickpocket, so but do not pick everything in sight. Non-lethal monster, of course. I do not always pick. Because I can't be bothered. And since there are some very useful item-groups to be had, we all should. Scrolls, potions, amulets, rings.

Why don't we?

Not enough (real) time?
Can't be bothered to press the keys?
Think it is scummy (I imagine TB knows just how the skill works, and it is in the game still)?
Worry about align? (now this could be a reason)

...or do we simply have enough items and just need to get on with the game?

I'll go as far as call TH overrated and unneeded, and players might try to go without it and see if they really need it. Not that there is any way to tell, RNG is wicked that way.

[gut]

meh:
> The extra stat increasing potions
<snip>
> potions of water, scrolls of defense and protection and slaying

Yes, I know about all of those. I have said that I know about all of
those. Also, what I'm saying in addition to that, is:

1. You don't need them.
2. There are better ways of getting them, if you do want them (why?).

Soirana:
> ToEF: honestly i do not need any talents to go through.

Brag! But you have a right to : )
Seriously, I have done the tower with 99 HP's before, but there is
a big difference between doing it, and recommending it.

> wand of stunning with some booze

Agreed, tactics are far superior to talents.

> later on: i usually find having not much to do with 2-3 talents

Talents in general are a rather small part of the game. I'm just
comparing the benefits within this small part of the game.

> TH is not a loss and it serves as supply of water, booze and scrol

Yes I know that. I have already sai- oh never mind...

> i do not find any talents being much of help

We simply do not agree on that. Which PC would you have a better
chance with? One that starts with 3 extra HP's and +2 PV, or one
without. Grey says without, I say with.

> Speed - quick scouting in areas of herb growth

Dreams. Herbs are not guaranteed.

> tp control and fetching guaranteed wand is more important

Agreed indeed.

> PV - quick descend to dwarftown, purchase smithing

I don't agree with that. I don't call a dwarftown PC 'early-game'.
Sprinting to DT is a meat grinder.

Silfir:
> Four wands of monster creation are not as easy to get destroyed

In my experience, they are. If a vortex explodes in my face, sometimes
I lose nothing, sometimes I lose hordes, it's all RNG. If one stashes
important items elsewhere, then redundancy is good, but not much
benefit (in my eyes) if carried.

> keep yourself below burdened, but again, not the topic at hand.

I was pointing out that most TH related gains are low value. Hordes
of low value items would rarely be missed.

> Tell me what you mean by "sucking" and we can continue

I'll try : )

gut's definition of suck: To suck, something must have the property of
being useless, or near useless. It should also be redundant, expensive,
and dull.

Oh why does TH suck? Let me count the ways:

1. Useless.

The benefit is 12.5 more items per 100 kills. I did a test with an orc
barbarian (with no TH talent), just to see how many kills one can
expect tohave, upon completing the carpenter quest. I cleared all
tension rooms, but did not fully explore each level. I also did not
encounter many breeders. I also know that a weaker PC would have more
kills by that point, this is just an example.

It was 57. This means that I missed out on < 7 items on my stroll
through the VD. I do not feel deprived in the slightest, as the items
I did find (~30 in all), were almost all of no value. I did not gain
a single point of DV or PV (or anything else) from any of those items.
The theory of more junk = more benefit just doesn't hold true here. In
fact, I think 'missing out' on more junk is not deprivation, it's a
benefit : )

2. Redundant.

Should I take a notion to feel deprived (why?) of those 7 (or any
number) of useless items, I could easily stai- I mean, find other ways
of aquiring them. Perhaps... just kill a few more monsters : )

3. Expensive.

To pursue this talent (that would have helped me precious little),
I would have had to give up 3 other talents to pursue it. My PC did
start with Wi and To stats both over 15. This means that he is
eligible for the 'immune to pain' talent as soon as possible. He
aquired it at exp. level 3, for a total of 3 (indestructable) PV
points.

Also of note, is that this PC did melee ghost bats on his trip. These
can be scary for an orc, but I always recieved the message 'the ghost
bat fails to hurt you'. I can't prove that my extra PV points had
anything to do with that, but I wouldn't be surprised. I also
encountered a few traps, and while my HP's never dropped to within 3,
they nearly did (7). Extra HP's aren't guaranteed to save your life
in every game... but they have a decent chance of it : )

4. Dull.

The ideas of 'more items' and 'sometime in the future' do not appeal
to me. I don't want more (junk) later, I want something *fun* NOW!
I want to run circles around my opponant as they watch in frustration.
I want to bash tough monsters, and laugh as they 'do not hurt me'.
I want enough PP's to bookcast! Infinite spells = very useful. I want
to heal faster, and have MORE HP's! I want my non-archers to be able
to inflict actual damage with missiles! To put it bluntly, I'd rather
have 'strong legs' to kick in some monster heads. Anything but that
dull TH.

To summarize, I think TH is like a bad piece of abstract art:
Useless, redundant, expensive, and dull : )

[Silfir]

1. Useless

The starting equipment of an orcish barbarian is pretty badass anyway, so no surprise you didn't find anything noteworthy that early in the game. You can't quantify stuff like this with just one game, with so few drops. Also, I have no idea what kinds of item you deem useless...

Besides, is its early game value the only thing relevant if you want to debate the usefulness? Want to debate the value of your measly PV talents in the endgame?

Treasure Hunter may be useless to you because most, if not all items are apparently useless to you. It's not useless on its own.

2. Redundant

While you kill more monsters, go stairhopping, gremlin bombing and what have you, I get on with the game... The effect of the talent is not replacable. Kill more monsters for the loot missed, and Treasure Hunter would still have gotten you more. Again, you don't rely on items much in general, so for you, Treasure Hunter is redundant. Fair enough.

3. Expensive

A strange criterion. Does Affinity to Thrown Axes and Hammers suck? Yes? But why? It isn't expensive - it costs only one talent after all!

A talent can only be expensive in relation to its value, which is exactly what we were discussing right here. Yes, Treasure Hunter costs three talents, while your PV chain gets you two points of PV and three HP with these three talents (Hardy - Tough Skin - Iron Skin, right?). So, both cost the same. Which one is more expensive? Why, that which is of less use to us. However, there is no us. You want the PV talents more, I want Treasure Hunter more. Scratch that criterion, it's useless.

4. Dull

What's dull about "more loot without lifting a finger"? Also, this was probably the criterion farthest removed from any kind of objectivity. So you're the guy who wants instant, visible benefits. Fair enough, I can respect that. You find Treasure Hunter dull. Sadly, that does not make it Dull, or make it Suck per your definition - it makes it Suck in your view, which was where this thread started.

Not to mention that out of all the nice perks you mentioned, you can only get ONE of those with three talents, and you don't even need any talents.

[Grey]

gut:
> I believe you just made my point for me : ) Cicero did not get the
> 'treasure hunter' talent until reaching exp. level 9, and he was only at
> exp. level 13 upon reaching the HMV. This means that he missed out on
> most of those extra items, and was still quite well equipped.

Oh come now, you're smarter than that. The majority of his kills would have been after level 9. He only had 108 kills at level 6 for instance. Anyway, my point was not necessarily that he got good items from it, but simply to demonstrate the sort of kill count (and thus the number of possible items) you would have before the game starts getting easy. I don't think 120 items is to be scoffed at during that stage of the game. Casting Create Item 120 times will likely net you several items that would come in handy for a level 13 character (I'll maybe test this some time to demonstrate but can't be arsed right now).

> This is *way* off topic, but any PC that can throw a rock can kill Hotz
> very easily.

Indeed, but it's not something I do. It's also fairly dangerous for early characters. Of course the extra speed talents I'm sure could help, heh... Anyway, I was just making the point that initially all my gold comes from item finds, so even junk is very handy to me early on.

> Tune in next week, when I declare PoGA's over-rated : )

I'd agree with you there actually - in terms of wishing for them at least. Better off wishing for potions of your favourite stat. In any case I tend to hoarde all my PoGA till I've maxed out stats from other sources like herbs, corpses and training, meaning they're more an added nicety than any use for survival. Their one good use is getting Pe higher, since it's hard to train otherwise without some lucky carrot rooms (which I very rarely get).

> It is this notion, that 'items are hard to come by', that
> causes me to constantly refer to other (scummy) methods of generating
> items.

It's not about "hard to come by" - it's about "nice to have". Nothing's necessary, as has been said many a time - it's just handy to passively gain more useful items. Or even more general items like holy water - it's just useful to have more without having to think about it. As for the "lottery" chance of getting very good items, well even it is more than useless. Misleading you can maybe say - some people perhaps put too much faith in the talent to give them nice stuff.

> I have noticed in our shared games, having to constantly drop heaps of
> worthless items (heap of 2 grizzly bear corpses!). Getting more items
> is just redundancy most of the time, and when it's not, the gains are
> mostly marginal. If you hit the AoLS grand prize, then congrats.

Annoying, isn't it? I think that's just down to individual playstyle though - I'm always extremely strict with my inventory myself, in spite of heavy pickpocketing, lots of killing/looting, and of course Treasure Hunter. I suppose you could argue that late in the game TH becomes a nuisance with the extra junk it generates, but you're gonna find plenty of junk anyway - it's not like it forces you to pick up more. And what little non-junk you find is still nice. Not in the least bit necessary, but nice.

> Seriously, I have done the tower with 99 HP's before, but there is
> a big difference between doing it, and recommending it.

Well, the fact is people were doing the Tower numerous times before TH was ever invented. I seem to remember teleportation being allowed in the top floor back then though... Still, I don't think there'll be much real argument here that any talent will really make a significant difference in the tower. Well, maybe Immune to Pain if you're pathetic enough not to get proper fire resistance (and the tower itself holds plenty of enemies for that).

> We simply do not agree on that. Which PC would you have a better
> chance with? One that starts with 3 extra HP's and +2 PV, or one
> without. Grey says without, I say with.

Now you're just trolling :P However low HP/PV really does make you much more cautious in the beginning... ;) The chars that die more for me are the powerful ones that I don't prepare as much with due to overconfidence.

> I did a test with an orc
> barbarian (with no TH talent), just to see how many kills one can
> expect to have, upon completing the carpenter quest.

With very careful play I'll normally kill a couple of hundred monsters in the VD. Combined with PC, UD and early CoC I'll have racked up a very high kill count before Dwarftown. Before the Tower I'll easily pass 5k kills. Of course perhaps others aren't as bloodthirsty as me, but in my games TH cannot be seen as something that sucks - it adds a very decent number of items, not all of which are junk. In the early game even the junk is useful.

In summary my opinion is thus: Treasure Hunter makes the game more fun. Why? Well there's a few reasons:

1) TH gives more items in general. We can argue about how many and how useful, but the simple fact it gives more is undeniable. In general this can open up more tactics. Just your starting equipment gives you very limited options - every extra item widens your abilities somewhat.

2) TH reduces the need for scummy tactics. Everywhere you've said "but you can stairhop" or whatever you've ignored the fact that it's a very boring way of doing things. TH is not - it's completely passive, and can reduce the need or desire for boring ways of acquiring things. Thus it increasees the fun of the game (or reduces the unfun stuff at least). It won't get you an AoLS (though I could maybe argue it increases the chance of an early RoDS drop, since that's something I've seen happen in several games - but such small chances are fairly irrelevant, most of the time you'll still end up pool-sipping) but it will get you other items that are helpful. It cannot be considered equivalent to scummy tactics, since they are both more limited in item scope and take away from the fun of the game. Of course you can argue that dying isn't fun either, but that depends on how much you die... and how much you like death :) Most deaths are from player mistakes anyway. And only through accepting death can you really enjoy ADOM...

I'll also point out that when it comes to scummy methods for finding items (other than pool-scumming and general pickpocketing, and of course late game BDC scumming) what I'll do is kill things in the ID or the High Kings dungeon. TH thus doubles the rewards from the only tactic I will use to get specific items. So if I want to use my scummy boring tactic it (theoretically) cuts the time I have to spend in half.

3) Profit. In the long run TH will give sufficient improvements to the char (stat potions etc) to make it worth more than any other combination of talents. You constantly compare it to early talents but there's nothing to stop you getting those as well, as long as you choose Alert at the start. The early levels come quick and fast, so delaying TH till L12 or 15, or even 18, will still mean it'll apply to the vast majority of your kills in the game. It will pay itself back overall. Remember that even in the late game it means a greater chance of eternium eq from chaos knights. It can take just a few significant items to make it profitable overall. Everyone likes having an optimised character by the end of the game, and TH is a good choice for that compared with other talents (which are for the most part very worthless - I'd only consider the speed, carrying capacity and fast missile talents to really stand their ground late game).

[Alavir]

3) Profit. In the long run TH will give sufficient improvements to the char (stat potions etc) to make it worth more than any other combination of talents. You constantly compare it to early talents but there's nothing to stop you getting those as well, as long as you choose Alert at the start. The early levels come quick and fast, so delaying TH till L12 or 15, or even 18, will still mean it'll apply to the vast majority of your kills in the game. It will pay itself back overall. Remember that even in the late game it means a greater chance of eternium eq from chaos knights. It can take just a few significant items to make it profitable overall. Everyone likes having an optimised character by the end of the game, and TH is a good choice for that compared with other talents (which are for the most part very worthless - I'd only consider the speed, carrying capacity and fast missile talents to really stand their ground late game).
When you go to levels 15 or so, those other talents (extra speed, extra PV or DV, etc) dont improve your chance to staying alive by much, and TH is useful to gain extra pots that can be life saving in the late game. As Grey said, you just need to choose Alert as starting talent, but many people would choose that to get missile weapon master...
TH can be overrated, but it doesn't suck ;) and i get it almost always.

[Soirana]

Soirana:
> ToEF: honestly i do not need any talents to go through.
Brag! But you have a right to : )
Seriously, I have done the tower with 99 HP's before, but there is
a big difference between doing it, and recommending it.


I didn't say i do that without stats. In normal game my toughness is at 33-35 at moment of entering tower. Somehow i am not in love with anemic wizards.



> i do not find any talents being much of help
We simply do not agree on that. Which PC would you have a better
chance with? One that starts with 3 extra HP's and +2 PV, or one
without. Grey says without, I say with.

I said I do not care. [I mean with 15 Toughness i will get away if i keep myself careful. Technically even stone blocks might be avoided by some ultraconservative tactics]



> Speed - quick scouting in areas of herb growth
Dreams. Herbs are not guaranteed.

1. Big room (okay that is dangerous place)
2. Quick scouting and restarting char.



I don't agree with that. I don't call a dwarftown PC 'early-game'.
Sprinting to DT is a meat grinder.

And spending Talents on PV is plainly boring... we won't get nowhere with these arguments.

[Elone]

If you keep this up, I'll start posting my Casino slot result dumps in this thread. You all know how lengthy they can be. Beware.

P.S. It wont be lengthier and more dull than this topic so far.

[Grey]

P.S. It wont be lengthier and more dull than this topic so far.

We're just getting started :P

[gut]

Here come another wall of text! : )

The value of most any item decreases drastically with time. For
example, starting with a potion of cure poison is very valuable,
finding one at exp. level 3 is still very nice, at level 6 it's
still nice, at level 9 it's fair, and at level 12 it's nothing
but junk. A metal cap to start is nice (but highly vulnerable),
at exp. level 12 it's also just redundant, perhaps you find a
+2 one, but you won't notice the slightest difference in game
play from it.

Maybe that is a more clear way of expressing my thoughts on this
miserable talent. What difference would you notice in game-play,
if you played without it? Maybe this is what makes me think so
differently from most players, I have played the *vast* majority
of my ADOM games, before TH ever existed. I think this gives me
a good perspective to evaluate the usefulness of TH. I can
honestly say I notice no difference in game-play, at *any* point
in the game.

With or without TH, the begining quests are just as difficult
as they ever were, and are accomplished in the same time frame.
TH does not provide *any* noticable benefit at that point in
the game, so why have it? I reach Dwarftown within the same
time frame, with no noticible effect on game-play. I reach the
Griffyard at the same time in the game, with no effect on game
play. I reach the pyramid, the TotHK's, the Water temple, the
ToEF, the Cat Lord and so on, *all* at the same points in the
game as I am able to WITHOUT THE TH TALENT. It makes no
noticable difference at any given point in the game.

Let us compare that with my thoughts on some other talents.
I only switched from ADOM 1.0.0 in the last year (I found it
more stable, and really only switched because that was the
version that everyone else seemed to be playing). Upon
switching, I *did* notice the GAME-CHANGING differences that
some talents made. Of particular note is 'long stride'. I was
really blown away by that one. After playing this masochistic
game for nearly a decade, without being able to outrun early
game monsters, a talent like that makes a big impression and
a big difference in game-play.

The speed talents also made a *huge* difference in game play.
When chosing these, after nearly a decade of doing without
them, one can not help but notice big benefits. The PV talents
also provide a real difference in game play. Chosing these
will actually allow me to do things earlier than I previously
could, they actually *noticably* increase my rate of survival.
Some missile feats like (but not limited to) 'fling the bling'
or 'kill Terinyo', I think, are only practical with the missile
talents. Chosing these talents actually provides a difference
one can feel, TH simply doesn't do that.

The PP's talents also provide game changing benefits for
spellcasters. With low PP's and concentration skill level,
getting the WP blanket from the SMC can be really dangerous.
With extra (sometimes double) starting PP's, it makes the
blanket a much more viable task for an exp. level 1 PC. Talents
like the HP's line, the DV line, and even the carrying capacity
line, all provide benefits that do impact game play.

Silfir:
> no surprise you didn't find anything noteworthy

Granted.

> You can't quantify stuff like this with just one game

I wasn't really trying to quantify anything. Really I just wanted to
find out how many kills it takes, to get to the center of a healing-
skill-based, mad-carpenter-quest : )

> what kinds of item you deem useless...

Items that grant no difference in game play. Items that I would
happily throw away, and thus hinder myself, not even the tiniest
iota. Items whose only purpose to exist, would be as fodder for
fireball traps. Items that when dropped on the floor of a shop,
makes the shopkeeper giggle. Those kinds of items. Worthless junk.

> Want to debate the value of your measly PV talents in the endgame?

Happily. After reaching the casino, TH = 0. The PV talents are still
indestructable. That means, unlike my nice 7LB's, I can actually take
my PV points through every trap in the game, into all of the temples
in the game, face every annihilator, and eye of destruction in the
game, and they will even survive the occasional divine smiting : )

> most, if not all items are apparently useless to you

That was funny : ) Seriously, I know the value of items. At least I
can say I have a good idea of what is needed, and what is not, at
most given most given points in any game. Anything that is not needed
is bloat, as you would notice no difference were it not there. Some
bloat is fine, it's for a margin of error, but all of that is nicely
provided for without the TH talent.

> While you kill more monsters, go stairhopping, gremlin bombing
> and what have you, I get on with the game

Now you are just being silly Silfir. Remember who your typing at : )

> The effect of the talent is not replacable

I don't agree. Not in the slightest.

> for you, Treasure Hunter is redundant. Fair enough.

What I am hoping to prove, is that TH is useless for the average
player, not me. It would actually rise above the level of 'suck'
for me, as I can survive extreme situations, and hate scumming.
It is the average, 'haven't won an ADOM game yet' player that is
being mis-lead by the illusions (delusions) of TH. OTHER TALENTS
WILL SERVE YOU BETTER!!!!!!

> Thrown Axes and Hammers suck? Yes? But why? It isn't expensive
> - it costs only one talent after all!

Lottery tickets only cost 1$. 'Someones got to win, it might as
well be you'! Do not pay something real, even if it's small, in
exchange for dreams. The one talent does cost, it will delay the
point at which you obtain the really cool talents like 'immune
to pain'. As one approaches the ToEF, exp. levels do come more
slowly.

> (Hardy - Tough Skin - Iron Skin, right?).

Right.

> Which one is more expensive? Why, that which is of less use to
> us. However, there is no us.

Barring restricted games, there is an us. I am refering to the game,
as it is, not with scum restrictions, as played by the majority of
ADOM players. TH does not change game-play, and if pursued, will
delay the point at which nice talents are available. I think the
popularity of the TH talent, is due to the guidebook saying that it
is great. People read it, and think it's true, but I don't think so.

> You want the PV talents more, I want Treasure Hunter more.
> Scratch that criterion, it's useless.

To say that I want PV more is not always accurate. I sometimes play
games with extreme restrictions, that may cause me to benefit more
from TH, than PV. I'm not an amature, so I can do without PV, if
I have a good reason : ) This is not a real way of judging talents
though, as 'strong legs' could be useful in some 'extreme restriction'
games. Just because something has value under occasional, and *very*
narrow parameters, doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

> You find Treasure Hunter dull. Sadly, that does not make it Dull

Yes. Sadly the 'because I say so' argument is rather pathetic : )
I mainly included that as humor, but it is my viewpoint. I think it's
possible that a lot of players share it though, based on some of the
'wish' related threads I've read. The AoLS is the best, but it's not
a *fun* wish. It trades a cool and immediate benefit, for a dream of
a future payout that may never happen.

> you don't even need any talents.

Careful... using that word : )

...

I typed this in a text editor, and just pasted it into the form
field. I actually exceeded the character limit with this post! Oh,
I can't stop laughing! : )

[gut]

Oh, that was hilarious : )

Grey:

> Oh come now, you're smarter than that.

If only! : )

> majority of his [Cicero's] kills would have been after level 9.

Well that depends on what monsters he had killed before and
after getting TH, and I didn't check that. I was pretty sure
that Cicero did visit DT before the HMV, but didn't check the
kill count. Even if he did have fewer kills from exp. level 1-9
as opposed to 9-13, I still consider most items to be de-valued
as the game progresses, so I think my point still holds. Cicero
progressed just as nicely *before* getting TH as he did after.
There was no noticable improvement in survival rate (a clear
winner either way), or game play, after aquiring TH.

> It's [killing Hotz] also fairly dangerous for early characters

No it's not. Use the water as a shield.

> It's not about "hard to come by" - it's about "nice to have"

That's a phrase that has been used often here, when describing
TH. It's 'nice to have'. The problem that I have with that
phrase, is that it could be used for just about anything under
the sun. A heap of 6 fireproof blankets, 'nice to have'. I
can't reasonably say no to that, but at the same time I do
consider it redundant, and to have *no* bearing on game-play.

> it is more than useless

Near useless? Still sucks in my book.

> people perhaps put too much faith in the talent [TH]

Yep. Dreams full of wonders, a pack full of junk.

> Now you're just trolling :P

I meant to put a ': )' in there, but it got lost due to ineptitude.

> in my games TH cannot be seen as something that sucks

I have already conceded, that in the very limited parameters of
'uber skill' plus 'me hate scum', TH does rise (marginally) above
the level of suck.

> this [TH] can open up more tactics. Just your starting equipment
> gives you very limited options - every extra item widens your
> abilities somewhat.

A good point here, about starting items. If TH gave some nice
starting items, then I wouldn't say it sucks, as that could have a
bearing on game play. It doesn't, so it does. By the time you find
that extra (TH based) item, you have already found several without
it. The extra periodic items, sprinkled throughout the game, will
not change what you can do, or when.

> TH reduces the need for scummy tactics

Is it possible to reduce something that small? : ) I suppose so,
but it doesn't do so drastically, TH's often lack items that
non-TH's have.

> you've ignored the fact that it's [scumming] a very boring way

I have? I say there is no need for either, but *if* one feels the
need (why?), then scumming is better. Don't pay too much attention
to the second part, as the first is more important : ) The need
for scumming is small, so reducing it means little.

> kill things in the ID or the High Kings dungeon. TH thus doubles

Would it still be double, by the TotHK's? Whatever you are looking
for is likely unneeded, or there are better ways.

> In the long run TH will give sufficient improvements

In my eyes, anything beyond the casino is moot. Up until then, I
believe TH benefits to be negligible, and impact game-play 0%.

> there's nothing to stop you getting those [other talents] as well

There is one thing that would stop me dead in my tracks. Items are
most useful early on, as the game goes on, items look more and more
like junk. If one delays gaining TH, they turn a sucky talent into
a waste of keypresses : )

> in the late game it means a greater chance of eternium eq

The benefit of which, (almost) all PC's won't notice even in the
slightest.

> talents to really stand their ground late game

Stand what ground in the late game? What difference would any talent
make in the late game? All talents depreciate with time, and TH leads
the pack. Upon reaching the casino (for most), TH = ZERO.

Alavir:
> TH is useful to gain extra pots

gut, sounding like a broken record: better ways

Soirana:
> I didn't say i do that [ToEF] without stats.

I didn't mean to imply that you did.

> 2. Quick scouting and restarting char.

A valid starting method, but in even in those games, extra PV can
help one survive until the herbs yield benefits. After the herb
benefits, victory is nearly guaranteed anyway, so extra items would
produce no game-play impact.

> spending Talents on PV is plainly boring

You find it boring for (nearly) all early game monsters to take (up
to) 3 fewer HP's, with every single attack?! That's not what I call
boring, that's what I call sweet.

[Grey]

I think that's the first time we've seen a regular discussion post loop over two posts - well done, gut, I'm sure Elone will be pleased with you ;P

> Even if he did have fewer kills from exp. level 1-9
> as opposed to 9-13, I still consider most items to be de-valued
> as the game progresses, so I think my point still holds.

Again, my point was about the number of kills. If you took TH initially you might expect around 120 extra items before HMV or Dwarftown. Decent chance that there are items in there that will give an edge in my opinion. Extra speed or PV is very situation specific. TH... well, it can be all things to all people, but mostly it relies on luck. I like to ride Lady Luck myself.

>> It's [killing Hotz] also fairly dangerous for early characters
>
> No it's not. Use the water as a shield.

For early chars assassins and outlaw leaders can be just as deadly as Hotzy. And it's quite lethal if you accidentally screw it up - most people aren't too experienced with the tactic.

>> Now you're just trolling :P
>
> I meant to put a ': )' in there, but it got lost due to ineptitude.

I got the message anyway! But it is still true that I think early PV can go to your head - a long stint in VD1&2 is still good for guaranteeing every character success. Start off with some fang-dangled PV and you might get stupid bravado ideas like going to the infinite dungeon! Not to mention the tomfoolery of trying to save that damn dog, or running after some worthless blanket, or descending down to levels where you can run into necromancers and ogre magi...

> I have already conceded, that in the very limited parameters of
> 'uber skill' plus 'me hate scum', TH does rise (marginally) above
> the level of suck.

I'm not uber skilled or anti-scum (well, not entirely). I just know how to be careful early on and don't like doing boring shit for items (or exploiting buggyish things - well, some of them). I also like items - the more the merrier. I'm sure I'm not in a complete minority in some of those matters.

> Would it still be double, by the TotHK's? Whatever you are looking
> for is likely unneeded, or there are better ways.

Not my ways. Not sure if it would still be double, but seems to me it should be. Only monsters with guaranteed drops and certain breeders seem to be unaffected by TH (haven't tested properly). Still, point is that if I do need to scum for something then TH actually becomes even more important to me. Killing things is part of the game, and going around a cavern level slaughtering critters is more fun to me than bothering with silly gremlins or the worthless ID.

> Stand what ground in the late game? What difference would any talent
> make in the late game? All talents depreciate with time, and TH leads
> the pack. Upon reaching the casino (for most), TH = ZERO.

Y'know, I don't see why you rate the casino so highly - it's not like it stocks every item in the game. Often it has very few things I can be bothered buying. Certainly by that stage you have a decent range of eq, but as said before extra things like holy water and booze are still nice to have more of, not to mention stat potions and scrolls of defense/protection. You could argue that there's less kills after then, but there's still the temples and whatever vaults, along with half the CoC. And yeah, you can say the extra items don't make much difference, but don't tell me you utterly stop picking items up after the casino...

Now imagine for a minute that at level 25 a new talent tree becomes available to you - at the cost of two talents you can have +1 to each stat, +2 DV/PV, 5 holy water and 3 booze. This is, as I see it, the absolute bare minimum benefit you would get from Treasure Hunter. Yeah, Casino and whatnot will give you all that too, but you'll get this as extra. Now, are there any other talents at that stage (after you've had at least 9 talents already) that you'd choose above this?

Useful talents in my eyes are speed and carrying, and both unimportant early on (speed is nice I guess, but not so useful early on - it's just nice to have at any point so it usually hits my priorities mid game). Missile stuff is good to have for non-casters, but not urgent unless really relying on it. So after level 24 or so every talent choice is just about character optimisation - a little extra DV here, some better missile damage there. Nothing important, nothing I couldn't improve by other means, but still worth picking up. TH in my eyes is at least worth these, even at that level. Of course I always choose it early to get maximum benefit from it, but if I really were so worried about getting survival talents initially then I'd still choose Alert at the start and save TH for later.

[Silfir]

"With or without TH, the begining quests are just as difficult
as they ever were, and are accomplished in the same time frame.
TH does not provide *any* noticable benefit at that point in
the game, so why have it? I reach Dwarftown within the same
time frame, with no noticible effect on game-play. I reach the
Griffyard at the same time in the game, with no effect on game
play. I reach the pyramid, the TotHK's, the Water temple, the
ToEF, the Cat Lord and so on, *all* at the same points in the
game as I am able to WITHOUT THE TH TALENT. It makes no
noticable difference at any given point in the game.

[more clarification of the point]"

The thing about Treasure Hunter is that the game doesn't rub your nose in it when it kicks in. We have seen the experiments made by Grey in the RGRA. They prove that the increase in drop rate is VERY MUCH noticable, if one bothers to pay attention. Which we don't do in a game - we accept the item drops we get as a given without thinking twice. Is that the fault of Treasure Hunter? No. So while the effect is not easily noticable, it is there, and it's not a small one.

It bears repetition, because that seems to be one of your key arguments pro Treasure Hunter suckage: It is not useless. It also is not "near useless". Just because the extra items aren't stamped "Brought to you by Treasure Hunter" doesn't mean you can just ignore them. (More precisely, since you don't need as many items as many other players, I guess you can ignore them. That's what I mean by differences in playing style.)

"> Want to debate the value of your measly PV talents in the endgame?

Happily. After reaching the casino, TH = 0. The PV talents are still
indestructable. That means, unlike my nice 7LB's, I can actually take
my PV points through every trap in the game, into all of the temples
in the game, face every annihilator, and eye of destruction in the
game, and they will even survive the occasional divine smiting : )"

I shouldn't have asked such a dumb question...

Yes, the extra PV points are indestructable. There's still only two of them, and they help you shit.

"What I am hoping to prove, is that TH is useless for the average
player, not me. It would actually rise above the level of 'suck'
for me, as I can survive extreme situations, and hate scumming.
It is the average, 'haven't won an ADOM game yet' player that is
being mis-lead by the illusions (delusions) of TH. OTHER TALENTS
WILL SERVE YOU BETTER!!!!!!"

Average players, if anything, benefit more from additional items than advanced players. It is the total n00bs that should never get Treasure Hunter. I think you're overestimating the amount of skill required to survive the early game - average players are average players because they have stopped dying all the time, so why not Treasure Hunter to get extra stuff that will help you survive the midgame? The early game may be the objectively hardest part, but for average players, the parts that they haven't even seen yet should be considered hardest.

"Scum restrictions" are what we are assuming throughout all of this discussion (Nice try sneaking that "no scum restrictions" in again, though). Average players don't regularly find scumming a fun pastime. Some grow accustomed to using certain scumming methods on their way to victory; I wasn't among them, so I largely didn't scum at all. It's not only the "uber-skilled" that hate scumming that want Treasure Hunter - Average players can hate scumming just as much, and prefer the extra loot of Treasure Hunter, and if they feel they can afford getting Alert and later obtaining Treasure Hunter after getting some early game survival talents, why should they not get Treasure Hunter?

"Stand what ground in the late game? What difference would any talent
make in the late game? All talents depreciate with time, and TH leads
the pack. Upon reaching the casino (for most), TH = ZERO."

The whole point is that we didn't want to use scumming tactics. Casino restocking IS a scumming tactic. Nice job finding the one we didn't mention yet and using THAT as an argument, gut.

Talents that have very remarkable effects even in the late game include the Porter chain (for non-spellcasters), Quick Shot, Lightning Shot. Treasure Hunter still has an effect, because monsters never stop dropping loot (though later on the increase offered by Treasure Hunter may be lower - on the other hand, the quality of the drops is higher). It's not an easily noticable effect, but it is there.

"In my eyes, anything beyond the casino is moot. Up until then, I
believe TH benefits to be negligible, and impact game-play 0&#37;."

Meep. Wrong. See the first paragraph I wrote in this post.

"gut, sounding like a broken record: better ways"

Silfir, feeling like breaking record completely: no other ways to get extra items without doing anything, therefore no better ways (I was unclear before. The effect of Treasure Hunter is replacable, but only through additional effort, which is what makes Treasure Hunter the much-lauded convenience feature it is.)



Sort of off-topic: When did pool-drinking start to be considered a scumming tactic? There's considerable risk involved (aging, elementals, dooming, losing intrinsics) and there's only a very limited number of pools. At most, you get one or two wishes, oftentimes you're left cursed and doomed with only some intrinsics to show for it. Hardly comparable to killing 2000 gremlins, or generating 10000 different ID levels through stairhopping.

[gut]

Grey:
> If you took TH initially you might expect around 120 extra items before HMV

You wouldn't even have to take it initially, as the first hundred kills (or
3 kills, if you chose) should get you to exp. level 6. Thus still allowing the
lion share of the extra 120 items (from ~1000 kills) to be found. However, you
would have also generated *naturally* thousands of items in that same time frame.
With each natural item found (the vast majority), the use for more is devalued.
Do you really need a heap of 12 potions of potential Ch?

> Extra speed or PV is very situation specific

I think it is quite universal. Well, maybe not against claw bugs, but still.

> most people aren't too experienced with the tactic.

Agreed.

> I'm not uber skilled

Oh, don't try to pull THAT one! : ) I would mention the space your name does
occupy in a certain hall.

> or anti-scum

!!!!!! OK !!!!!!
*and every othter sarcasm mark in the world* : )

> and don't like doing boring

Back to what I said TH was 'unsuckish' for last posts.

> if I do need to scum for something

I just don't think there are that many items worth scumming for. If I thought
there were more, maybe I would think differently (still very narrowly though),
but I just don't think so.

> slaughtering critters is more fun to me than bothering with silly gremlins

Me too : ) I would have more fun killing things, if I decided to scum for
items... but I so rarely do that. Just because it's more fun doesn't mean it
is more effective, or as safe. I might also point out that most players do not
have 88 gazilion point victories yet, so a safer method might be prefered.
Monsters like gorgons can turn up in those cavernous levels, and even kill you
while out of sight.

> why you rate the casino so highly

The casino has such amazing benefits, I don't know where to start.

> it's not like it stocks every item in the game

Do you need every item in the game? Whoops, scratch the 'n' word. What I meant
to say, is that if you *had* more items, sitting right there in your pack,
would you notice a difference in game play? Even the slightest difference,
between that and a regular pack-full. My experience says no way. Leaving TH in
the 'sucks' catagory once more.

> Often it has very few things I can be bothered buying

I would not attribute that to the results of the TH talent. I would be more
likely to think, that in that sort of a situation, some item scumming has
already occured. If not, then I assume you and I have a similar definition of
what constitutes junk. Rendering TH near useless again.

> This is, as I see it, the absolute bare minimum benefit you would get from
<snip>
> you'll get this as extra.

Extra is an OK word for it. I think another way of saying 'extra' would be
'near worthless'. You would not notice a difference in game play. I would
still have rather had the help I needed WHEN I NEEDED IT. A drink of water
is worth little in the kitchen, but in the desert...

> speed is nice I guess, but not so useful early on

Goodness. You don't think early speed is great?!

Silfir:
> the increase in drop rate is VERY MUCH noticable

Agreed.

> we accept the item drops we get as a given without thinking twice

Agreed, and nodding my head with enthusiasm!

> Is that the fault of Treasure Hunter? No

Agreed.

> effect is not easily noticable, it is there, and it's not a small one

... you lost me : )

I'm attempting to prove that it is a small one. A very small one, that pales
in comparison to the really good alternatives. I think every PC will get
hordes of items, regardless of TH, you will get far more than is needed.
Blah, I used that word again. Yes, I say the average ADOM PC does live in
abundance, as far as item generation is concerned. You won't suffer for
lack of that occasional 'extra' (aka needless, aka worthless) item that
will be sprinkled throughout the game as you progress.

> doesn't mean you can just ignore them

I'm not ignoring the extra items that TH 'brings to me'. I'm questioning thier
value. Here are some reasons why I think it is very low: You don't start with
these items, you have to earn them. They come to you slowly. They come to you
in a mess of other items, that are of equal value. When you do finally recieve
them, the game has already provided you other ways of gaining the same (or
better) benefits.

> There's still only two of them [PV],

I would hope by then there would be at least three. I count 'immune to pain' as
a PV point. In the late game, indestructible PV isn't fantastic, but TH is
still less, as it can't provide an indestructible anything.

> Average players, if anything, benefit more from additional items

Better ways. That won't cost you starting benefits.

> so why not Treasure Hunter to get extra stuff

See above post.

> "Scum restrictions" are what we are assuming throughout all of this discussion

We are? I wasn't informed.

> Average players can hate scumming just as much

If average players want to play with the 'no scum' restriction, then the TH
talent would gain some value for them as well. By the same logic, if they
want to play as blind monks, I highly advise taking 'strong legs' at the
earliest possible opportunity : )

> why should they not get Treasure Hunter

I would advise having (at the very least), one good 'no save scum' victory
under one's belt, before playing with the 'no item scum' restriction. I believe
that until the 'no item scum' restriction comes into play, TH is blown out of
the water by the other talents. I would probably advise speed.

> Casino restocking IS a scumming tactic

I agree. However, I did not mention the word restock. I think that is one more
example of our difference in opinions, of what constitutes 'enough', as opposed
to 'redundancy'. When I said the casino makes TH useless, you think that means
generating tens of thousands of items. Most of the arguments I use to bash TH,
could just as easily be applied to casino restocking. Does one really n--- that
many items?

> Meep.

Nanu nanu : )

> no other ways to get extra items without doing anything,

Well, how lazy can the average player expect to get away with being!? If they
think that 10 minutes is too much effort to put into finding those 'extra'
hurthling cakes, then I say: LET THEM NOT EAT CAKE!

> much-lauded convenience feature it is.

Replace the word lauded with over-rated, and I agree. It is a convenience, but
I say nothing more. Speed is better, as are other talents.

> When did pool-drinking start to be considered a scumming tactic

I don't consider it scumming. It's just an alternative to lucky finds, that's
why I mentioned it.


Hey, I got this one in one post! I wonder if Caladriel would be proud of me? : )
On a side note, why are females against long-winded-ness on forums? This seems
like it's the opposite of real life, where females are usually more chatty.

PS. I would like to see those slot machine message dumps. I have a theory about
the dragon + goblin + troll combination, but I have lost my own files : )

[Silfir]

"Well, how lazy can the average player expect to get away with being!? If they
think that 10 minutes is too much effort to put into finding those 'extra'
hurthling cakes, then I say: LET THEM NOT EAT CAKE!"

If it is worth spending 10 minutes or any amount of time on, can it not be worth three talents? After all, lower PV also only means you have to be more careful. The notion that there is a "item scum" phase every player should have to go through before he is allowed to be "anti-scum" is preoposterous (man, I love these funny words I can now use in an actual discussion!).

Besides, even the so-called "uber-skilled" are people. If a talent is useful to them, it hardly sucks.

"Hey, I got this one in one post! I wonder if Caladriel would be proud of me? : )
On a side note, why are females against long-winded-ness on forums? This seems
like it's the opposite of real life, where females are usually more chatty."

Really, has it been about something other than the length of our... posts during the last three pages of this thread?

(What should we deduce from the fact that gut always makes these hugeass posts... Are they to compensate? :p)

[meh]

> 2. Quick scouting and restarting char.

A valid starting method, but in even in those games, extra PV can
help one survive until the herbs yield benefits. After the herb
benefits, victory is nearly guaranteed anyway, so extra items would
produce no game-play impact.

I thought you were meant to be talking about average 'haven't won an ADOM game yet' players. You seem to think that the latter half of the game is just a formality, but that is certainly not the case for most players. If your only concern is getting to Dwarftown (or whatever you consider the point where the early part ends), then in that circumstance TH really isn't worthwhile. You might want to get something like Sixth Sense instead. For many, though, the game is challenging all the way to the end and TH provides some real benefits.

I guess this is an issue that also depends a lot on playing style and preferences. My favourite race/class is troll beastfighter. Needless to say, spending talents on early game survival with these is a complete waste.

[Silfir]

Worth considering for any troll is Long-Lived, but it doesn't give much...

[Grey]

gut:
> However, you
> would have also generated *naturally* thousands of items in that same time frame.

You think thousands? I wonder... Of course this is quite hard to quantify. I've always thought the majority of my item gains come from monster drops, which is why I value TH so much. Though this could be because I kill lots, as said before.

>> I'm not uber skilled
>
> Oh, don't try to pull THAT one! : ) I would mention the space your name does
> occupy in a certain hall.

A fluke ;P But seriously, I've not got many wins. Mid-game usually screws me up somehow, or I lose interest in a char. I've got some skills, sure, but I don't think I'm much above average on these forums.

> I might also point out that most players do not
> have 88 gazilion point victories yet, so a safer method might be prefered.
> Monsters like gorgons can turn up in those cavernous levels, and even kill you
> while out of sight.

A gorgon can kill you out of sight? Never happened to me. Actually I've never been petrified - high DV helps immensely. And teleportation (or long stride) helps you get the hell out, or missiles let you kill it from afar. Of course you do have to be very careful in the cavern levels (greater mimics can be a real nuisance, not to mention general gangrape) but I don't think that means only very experienced players can do it.

> The casino has such amazing benefits, I don't know where to start.

476 items. Why do you rate that so highly? Why Treasure Hunter would give you that many items by that stage of the game! (Well, equivalent to just under 4k kills - like I said my kill count is over 5k by the Tower.) So if you had the choice of spending 3 talents to access the casino...? Don't start arguing that they're not needed again, because you just claimed the casino was amazing even though it's not needed either. How is one thing which passively gives more items in the game suck, whilst the other, which requires immense amounts of cash (yes, easily obtainable, but it does need some tricks), somehow amazing?

> if you *had* more items, sitting right there in your pack,
> would you notice a difference in game play? Even the slightest difference,
> between that and a regular pack-full. My experience says no way.

My experience says yes. I even notice a very huge difference when pickpocketing extensively, and that's less successful and with more junky items than Treasure Hunter.

> > Often it has very few things I can be bothered buying
>
> I would not attribute that to the results of the TH talent.

I wasn't trying to claim that - just downplaying the general use of the casino. It's nice to have (much like the TH items) but not "amazing". It certainly doesn't put TH out of business - if anything it just adds to the general goodness.

> Extra is an OK word for it. I think another way of saying 'extra' would be
> 'near worthless'. You would not notice a difference in game play. I would
> still have rather had the help I needed WHEN I NEEDED IT. A drink of water
> is worth little in the kitchen, but in the desert...

A nice analogy, but you're answering the wrong question. I was posing the idea of TH as a mid game choice - letting you have the early PV and speed talents, as long as you choose Alert to leave your options open for Treasure Hunter and Missile Master later. You would thus enjoy the benefits of both - water enoguh for a bath in fact. Are there any other talents you would choose in the mid-game that would be better than a bunch of "extra" stuff that's "nice" to have, albeit unneeded? After all by mid game those talents are quite undeeded too - they're just extras themselves (as all talents are anyway).

> Goodness. You don't think early speed is great?!

We've already discussed this :P Long Stride is enough for me - anything more is not needed, it's just extra, it's nice to have but that's still sucky! ;) Speed I'll pick up later on, because it's better than most other talents then, but at the start I really don't think it makes much difference for me.

> I would advise having (at the very least), one good 'no save scum' victory
> under one's belt, before playing with the 'no item scum' restriction.

Really? I'm of quite the opposite opinion - it's only really the experienced players that know how to pull off all the item-scumming tactics effectively. Gremlin-bombing for instance is not an option for your average player. ID-hopping is okay for low danger level items, but if you're after specific stuff like rings of ice it's not going to help you without some significant risk. Otherwise it's only of much use for books (which is the only thing I've ever used it for in fact - and only in one game). Most players, when faced with the desire for items (whether it be key stuff like fireproof blankets, or simple stuff like more armour and weapons) will do the logical thing and kill lots of monsters for them. Other talents will help them kill the monsters of course, but TH will give them more rewards at the end. Items, as you've admitted, are more important for newer players, so even if some PV or speed talents are chosen off the bat it's still good for them to have TH later to keep them well equipped and prepared for the rising challenges of the mid-game.

> In the late game, indestructible PV isn't fantastic, but TH is
> still less, as it can't provide an indestructible anything.

Sure it can - artifacts. But hell, I'm not gonna bother arguing that... Still, though almost all items can be destroyed somehow, it's generally quite rare. TH will likely give you an item of equipment you'll wear or a scroll of protection that is equivalent to that PV and won't get destroyed (yeah, it could get destroyed - but it usually won't). Besides, the PV is still useless by that stage, indestructable or not.

[Elone]

On a side note, why are females against long-winded-ness on forums? This seems
like it's the opposite of real life, where females are usually more chatty."


Your average female doesnt have a set of throwing knives on her desk, a bonebreaker under her bed, a pair of knuckles in her drawer, a 256blader on her PC and a number of black belts hung above her bed. And most importantly (and relevantly), a matching temper. So yeah, I have a bit different habits than other gals you met.



(What should we deduce from the fact that gut always makes these hugeass posts... Are they to compensate? :p)


Haha.

[Alavir]

Alavir:
> TH is useful to gain extra pots

gut, sounding like a broken record: better ways

Well, since its passive, its still free pots. You can do scummy methods (something i dont do, besides pickpockets, which i dont consider scumming) and have TH, and benefit for both, since you will get stuff faster with your gremlin bomb or whatever. TH is a time (and boredom) saver.
BTW, i considere TH to cost only 2 talents, since alert is root for other useful talents like great book caster and missile weapon master, so its not as costly as you make it sound. Finally, if you survive long enough, the importance of talents is reduced and you could afford spend two talents to get some free stuff.

[Soirana]

> Goodness. You don't think early speed is great?!
We've already discussed this :P Long Stride is enough for me - anything more is not needed, it's just extra, it's nice to have but that's still sucky! ;) Speed I'll pick up later on, because it's better than most other talents then, but at the start I really don't think it makes much difference for me.


IMHO, gut is right. You can't have too much speed. Especially early on.



> In the late game, indestructible PV isn't fantastic, but TH is
> still less, as it can't provide an indestructible anything.

Sure it can - artifacts.

You are not serious, right? Becouse I've probably pickpocketed more artifacts than got from random drops. And most of later came ever from dragons or wyrms (mostly blue). TH doesn't help while dealing with dragons.

[gut]

Silfir:
> worth spending 10 minutes or any amount of time on, can it not be worth
> three talents

The cake comment was a joke. I mention a heap of hurthling cakes because I
consider them to be mainly 'extra' (near worthless). By saying that they
should do without that heap of hurthling cakes, I was saying they should do
without something that is (I feel) mainly worthless.

> lower PV also only means you have to be more careful

Indeed, but I'm not saying talents can't be left by the wayside. They can.
I'm just comparing TH to others. Others give you something *real*, right from
the start, and it never goes away. Where as TH gives you *nothing* at the
start (gonna argue that too?), and replaces it with a pack full of dreams.
When you do (slowly) start to see the extra items, they come with a horde of
others. You won't notice the difference.

> is allowed to be "anti-scum" is preoposterous

Please change that to 'advised'. Maybe then it won't sound preposterous.

> If a talent is useful to them, it hardly sucks

I think of it like the useless forms of insurance people sometimes buy. If
having your legs insured for 1 mil makes you feel better, it doesn't suck,
but not because it is really useful, just because it makes you feel better.
The guidebook says TH is great, everybody reads it, and they pick TH every
game, because it makes them feel better. The real gains are marginal, and
you won't notice their lack, if you chose different talents.

> gut always makes these hugeass posts

I've made two word posts in the past. but what would that imply...
Also, please do keep in mind, that you are replying only to me. On the other
hand, *I* am replying to you, Grey, Elone, meh, Alavir, Soirana, and every
other stray that wants to chime in with the redundant: [BULLWINKLE VOICE] "I
like TH 'cause it get me extra potions of water, scrolls of defense, stone
clubs, iron ingots, gloves of smiting [+0, +0] -1, leather girdles, sandles,
leather caps, etc..." [/BULLWINKLE VOICE]

meh:
> you were meant to be talking about average

Hence the wording: " even in those games"

> You seem to think that the latter half of the game is just a formality

Guilty as charged. Except for the cat lord, the archmage, and some balors.

> TH provides some real benefits

Correction, TH *may* provide some real benefits. This depends heavily on what
your definition of a real benefit is. I have had games in the past where I
finish the game with wishes to spare. The current Cicero PC has had a wand
of wishing with 5 charges, ever since visiting the Griffyard. Guess what, he
is now on the verge of completing an ULE, and he *STILL HAS ALL FIVE CHARGES*.
Sometimes (most times) the line is blurred, between what you think you might
have a use for, and what you ACTUALLY have a use for. I can honestly say, that
Cicero had no use for a wand of wishing with 5 charges, to complete a normal
victory.

> troll beastfighter. Needless to say, spending talents on early game survival
> with these is a complete waste.

No, not a complete waste. Trolls in general are more vulnerable to paralyze
attacks, than most PC's are. It may be dependant on the De stat, or exp.
level, I don't know. What I do know, is that I have had several trolls killed
by the stupid mimic in Waldenbrooks shop, and that hurts.

Grey:
> You think thousands?

Yes, but I can't prove it.

> I've always thought the majority of my item gains come from monster drops,

I may start a few orc barbarians, take them through the VD quest (wow, that
sounded bad) and note the average gains. With the one test I did, I killed
57 monsters (for a gain of 6 items), but I had a total of ~30 items in my
pack.

> which is why I value TH so much

So you value TH highly, because you feel like most items come from drops.
How would you feel about TH, if it turns out, that it's only responsible for
about 1 out of every 5 items found?

> I don't think I'm much above average on these forums.

In a rare display of common sense, I will keep my thoughts to my self.

> A gorgon can kill you out of sight?

Petrify breath can reach a long way. I have been killed by it, as a gorgon
*just* stepped into my visible radius. It depends on the PC's visible radius.

> I don't think that means only very experienced players can do it

I don't think any player *should* do it. If you are tough enough to handle
extended periods in those cavernous levels, you should just get on with the
game.

> 476 items. Why do you rate that so highly

I suppose my impression of casino glory, was formed during my limited turns
games. 476 items did mean a lot to those PC's! I have played a few 'normal'
type games recently, and the casino glory has been reduced. Still pretty
good though, considering that at that point in the game, PC's don't have a
lot of items of that danger level (32?). You get items that are a step above
what you are used to, and you get them AT the BEGINING of your final dive. If
TH would give items that are better than you are used to, just before some
pivotal game point (ToEF?), I might feel differently. But it doesn't.

> Treasure Hunter would give you that many items by that stage of the game!

That many, yes (well, maybe), but there is a difference between quantity and
quality. The TH items are always mixed in with a horde of other junk, all of
the same quality (mostly low).

> How is one thing [TH vs. casino]

I believe TH gives you 1 extra item per ~5. They are the same DL of the rest
of the junk you will be collecting. The casino gives a horde of items, that
are of a higher than normal DL for the PC. That is why I think TH sucks, and
the casino is very good (it's only amazing in limited turns games).

> I even notice a very huge difference when pickpocketing extensively

You notice a game-play difference from pickpocketing? You think it allows
you to do quests earlier than you would be able to, without doing it?
You can do the ToEF, the Griffyard, DF, and so on sooner than you normally
could... because of picking pockets? Goodness, I hope I don't have to start
picking pockets again : )

> It [the casino] certainly doesn't put TH out of business

I do believe, that as the game progresses, the value of most items are
devalued. Having four blessed scrolls of identify is nice, having fourteen
is unnee- whoops, I mean 'you won't notice a difference between 4 and 14',
you will just close the gate (or die) with the 'extra' 12 in your pack.
The casino (with it's load of better than normal items) further devalues
the junk in your pack. Don't think so? Think about all stuff in your
inventory you normally throw out (more specifically, replace) after visiting
the casino. A minute ago, that 'extra' mithril girdle was was worth packing
around, now it's not. That's how the casino kills the TH talent.

> you're answering the wrong question. I was posing the idea of TH as a
> mid game choice

I was answering the right question. I see the TH talent (as a mid-game
choice) as giving you extra water (items), while you are in the kitchen
(mid game has plenty of items already). If TH gave you water while in the
desert (upon entering the chain), I would think differently. But it doesn't.
The 'extra' TH based items in the mid game, seldom = SLB's. It most often =
more junk. If you are a lucky winner, I congratulate you, the same as I would
a lottery winner.

>> I would advise having (at the very least), one good 'no save scum' victory
>> under one's belt, before playing with the 'no item scum' restriction.

> Really? I'm of quite the opposite opinion

Maybe I phrased that wrongly. What I meant to say, is that I think it is a
bad idea to take *any* legitimate tactic off the table, before your first
legit win.

> it's [the ID] only of much use for books
<snip>
> only [used it] in one game)

Well I have played multiple entire games in the ID. Stairhopping to build
up, then diving when powerful enough, reach exp. level 50, then leave the
chain. This means nearly endless stairhopping, and I can vouch for the ID
being really useful for many things other than books.

> Most players, when faced with the desire for items
<snip>
> will do the logical thing and kill lots of monsters

Based on the threads I have read on some forums, that's not the case. Many
TH fans often find themselves lacking some item. "me no have AoLS, where I
find one? me look in ID?" I think that the ID is the first place most thoughts
turn to, when lacking an item. It is usually we, well mainly Silfir : ), that
mentions killing hordes of monsters in cavernous levels, as an alternative.
It's a good alternative, a bit more dangerous perhaps, but most of those PC's
seem to be walking tanks anyway, so it's no worry.

> Items, as you've admitted, are more important for newer players

Hmm, 'more important'. What exactly is 'nearly worthless' x2 ? Oh yes, that's
right, it's still 'nearly worthless' : ) Please take that the right way : )

> Besides, the PV is still useless by that stage

Of course it is NEAR useless. Silfir just asked me if I wanted to debate some
trivial point of ADOM. What do you really expect me to say? No?! : )

Elone:
> a number of black belts hung above her bed

What martial arts do you study? I hope that's the kind of belts you meant : )

Alavir:
> TH is a time (and boredom) saver

It would be, if you nee- whoops, I meant if you could tell the slightest
difference in game play, from having those 'extra' items. You can't, so it
isn't.

> BTW, i considere TH to cost only 2 talents, since alert is root for other

Valid point. If one plans to pursue those other talents.

[Silfir]

We're running in circles - gut repeats his points over and over and takes apart our posts, and we repeat our points over and over and take apart gut's posts, and neither side really has a chance to dissuade the other.

These walls of texts are aggravating me more and more, primarily because they are full of grade B nitpickery that have no connection to the topic at hand and only serve as a distraction, further obscuring the fact that we really are only repeating ourselves. (I'm guilty of this too, which aggravates me even more.)

People who want to know whether Treasure Hunter is useful to them can dissect all the inane drivel we have collectively produced and emerge with enough information to form his own opinion, so I guess some good came of it.

I'm going to play X-COM now.

[gut]

I put more value on TH now, than I did at the start of this mess.
I would now be willing to go so far as to say that 'TH is a borderline
sucky talent for most games'.

[Grey]

Soirana:
(re: artifact drops)
> You are not serious, right?

Geez, of course I'm not serious - read my post right, I said clearly I wouldn't argue that.

gut:
> How would you feel about TH, if it turns out, that it's only responsible for
> about 1 out of every 5 items found?

An extra 20% items? Great! That's 20% more books, 20% more stat potions, 20% more armour, 20% more junky stuff to sell early on. I personally think the value should be more around 1 in 4 or 1 in 3, but it depends on the stage of the game.

But hmm, I wonder if we can think about this analytically... In my RGRA post investigating TH I also looked at items found on the floor - around 18% of rooms had items. Let's say there's 15 rooms a level factoring in corridors (a ridiculous over-estimate). That's 3 items a level. I'll be generous and say 4. With UD, PC, VD/DD and early CoC you'd get 92 items by the time you get to Dwarftown - let's say 100. With shops you'd get 63 from guaranteed ones (not counting Munxip's) - say 80 including randoms and restocks (generous figures again). You'd also get a few extra items from the likes of thrown crude spears - say 25. There's a few other odds and bobs, and I'll say 20 to be generous again. By that stage of the game I'd have killed 1000 monsters, meaning about 150 regular items and 125 TH items. Let's halve those to consider a less bloodthirsty player. So we have a total of 300 regular items and 63 TH items - a difference of 21%.

That's a very conservative estimate. I imagine it agrees with your figures from your orc barb simply because you never had any summoners or vaults - those are both big sources of killed monster items. And for me, with many more monster kills, the figure will be much bigger - perhaps 40%. But even with 20% I'd be happy - a good investment of 3 talents wih plentiful and varied rewards. Even after level 12, having survived the early game, it's still something worth turning to.

> I believe TH gives you 1 extra item per ~5. They are the same DL of the rest
> of the junk you will be collecting. The casino gives a horde of items, that
> are of a higher than normal DL for the PC.

Come now, you're being obtuse again :P How many high DL items are actually generated in the Casino? I think once I got a GoGS in there... Otherwise I just get spellbooks, water, troll blood, and some slaying ammo. There'll be nothing new. The real value in the casino is all those general items, which are useful even though they're not high danger level. And of course the chance of a decent artifact. I really do not believe you can argue that the Casino has a significant number of high DL items - most of it is junk as you know, and the non-junk stuff you can still find elsewhere earlier on. It's no different than the TH rewards, except for maybe the odd very lucky find (which even TH might give you on the next few levels).

> You notice a game-play difference from pickpocketing? You think it allows
> you to do quests earlier than you would be able to, without doing it?

I definitely notice way more water and more stat potions. And the odd artifact of course (not that uncommon if you pickpocket everyone). Doesn't open up new paths or anything, but I like having very high stats personally. And I love loads of holy water, heh...

> I do believe, that as the game progresses, the value of most items are
> devalued. Having four blessed scrolls of identify is nice, having fourteen
> is unnee- whoops, I mean 'you won't notice a difference between 4 and 14',
> you will just close the gate (or die) with the 'extra' 12 in your pack.

But it's not just the extra mundane items (which I still like to have as backup myself). The nicer stuff appears in higher amounts too. With 20% more items (or 40% more in my case) there is a very definite chance of getting a better weapon or armour sooner. That can open up new areas earlier. Yes, a gamble, but with pretty good odds that will pay off at some point.

> I was answering the right question. I see the TH talent (as a mid-game
> choice) as giving you extra water (items), while you are in the kitchen
> (mid game has plenty of items already).

Nope, still avoiding the question - in the mid-game what other talents would you choose that would give greater value?

> Well I have played multiple entire games in the ID. Stairhopping to build
> up, then diving when powerful enough, reach exp. level 50, then leave the
> chain. This means nearly endless stairhopping, and I can vouch for the ID
> being really useful for many things other than books.

Sounds exciting... Generally though the ID gives poorer items than elsewhere, and can be very dangerous itself since monsters generated seem to be based more on character level than depth. If unprepared you can get some nasty surprises in comparison with other dungeons.

> Based on the threads I have read on some forums, that's not the case. Many
> TH fans often find themselves lacking some item. "me no have AoLS, where I
> find one? me look in ID?" I think that the ID is the first place most thoughts
> turn to, when lacking an item.

AoLS is the one that makes people turn to the ID most often - I don't think it's fair to base your opinions on just it. Also I would point out that when hunting for items in the ID many don't just stairhop, but instead explore full levels killing everything on them. Again TH comes in handy here, especially with tension/threat rooms and milking summoners.

[gut]

> How many high DL items are actually generated in the Casino?

I don't know, I never count them. I always get rings of slaying, some
artifacts (I know, DL doesn't apply the same way, but I'm talking
quality), and other high quality stuff. I haven't memorized the DL
of many items, as it never really interested me. If I looked it up
though, and compared my casino loot to the list, I think many of the
items there would be high DL. Like I said, I was mainly saying the
casino was great in my limited turns games, not so much in regular
ones.

> Doesn't open up new paths or anything, but I like having

Pickpocketing (aka, more items) can have an enjoyable effect. I gave it
up though, and experienced an increased enjoyment of the game. To me,
it made no difference in how the game progressed, so I dropped it.

> That [TH] can open up new areas earlier

I have never noticed it. Having that sweet orc spear of devastation is
helpful (I won't mention how small the chance is, that TH would
actually account for that spear), but it doesn't open areas of the
game more quickly. If you are not ready to tackle steel golems, you
are not ready, that spear makes no difference. I think the game would
progress more quickly if one just obtains the Mace of Heaviness, and
throws their junk away.

> in the mid-game what other talents would you choose that would give
> greater value?

If I had spent my early game talent on 'alert' (I would not), then I
might chose 'miser' and 'TH' when the good talents ran out, or became
totally devalued. I would rarely chose 'alert' as my starter though,
as there are better early game talents. I think I might be able to
also make a case for 'missle weapon master' as also giving up real
benefits, in exchange for future (unne----) ones.

> [ID only games] Sounds exciting...

All challenge games have their dull parts. I imagine getting your
troll to exp. level 50, for your artifacts game, wasn't all smiles
and thrills : )

[LFk]

When i left ADOM long ago, 1.11 had just come out and Treasure Hunter was widely regarded as one of the best, if not the best talent in the game.

It's interesting, to read a drawn out argument against TH.

I'll admit i didn't read all 6 pages of this thread (i came back to check up on if JADE got released... nope), as I see some of these posts are extremely long winded. I never bought into TH fully: early game speed, the DV tree, (and based on class), book casting and carrying talents all bring more to the table in the form of early game survivability or general utility.

However, to state that it is worthless is a gross exaggeration. It is a moderately useful talent, and is useful across the board rather than being class specific.

The perception of utility for treasure hunter is heavily rooted in your personal mindset, which i suspect is why this discussion is as drawn out as it is. When useful items drop, such as a potion of holy water dropping when you have something you'd like to uncurse in your inventory, you might think one of two things: that treasure hunter is helping you get these little favors, or that the item would've dropped anyway.

Neither is really the correct way to look at treasure hunter.

Being able to uncurse that item RIGHT NOW probably didn't really save your life. Waters are common, you probably would've found one in the next ten minutes. Likewise, having an extra mithril cap [+0 , +2] for a few levels didn't do much... you'll find a better one. That scroll of identify doesn't really matter now anyway, you could've identified everything in a couple of minutes. And so on it goes: most of what treasure hunter does for you is temporary and replacable. Even if it kicks you a sword of sharpness, that too can be replaced by a better artifact weapon in the end which doesn't corrode, on top of the fact that there is no way to prove that TH caused that sword to drop in the first place.

However, you can't argue against that fact that each instance of an extra item has the potential to be useful. For the duration that you wore that mithril cap instead of your hat [+0 , +1], you might have come within 1-2 hp of death. That scroll of remove curse might come right when you need to get off those gauntlets of peace, and in the next few turns you accidentally get yourself cornered by a Golem that you can thankfully damage now. A wand of cold sure was handy to clear out that vault of fire monsters, while minimizing loot destruction.

There are thousands and thousands of such possible scenarios that stretch over a given game. Over the course of an entire game it becomes extremely likely that extra item that saves your neck at the right time, or makes a certain segment of the game that much easier...is directly from TH. As such, I would say only reasonably experienced players will ever reap the benefits of Treasure Hunter. If I recall my earliest games of ADOM, I didn't so much play the game as move into monsters as my catch-all approach to killing them (supplemented by occasionally using missile weapons when i realized what Karmics were actually doing to me). In this style of play, Treasure Hunter is worthless. Out of the heaps and heaps of crap I pick up, I only ever use the holy water to bless things, ID scrolls to ID things, and take whatever upgrades to my gear I can find. This PC is far better off going down the line of +PV talents on top of speed and such, and maybe even MeleeWep Master.

The subtle nature of knowing when and how to best utilize your items, and realizing that there is more than one way to dispatch of a monster that doesn't involve clubbing it to death with your quarterstaff is essential for fully utilizing TH's benefits.

If your PC is never in peril, of course, i would understand why TH is not that useful. Similarly, if you have the patience to pickpocket/IDcamp etc. , TH becomes heavily reduced in utility seeing as how its much more likely that you already have that item that you need right then and there. Thus, I would also argue that TH is much more useful for challenging race/class combinations, as they will find themselves in peril far more often. From personal experience, I note little difference when taking TH on a class I regard to be very easy, a Paladin for example. Good starting equipment + end game melee/spellcast versatility means that the extra equipment you find early is less useful and the late game has your character being pretty strong no matter what.

In contrast, merchants would need everything they can get to survive the early/mid game, and a single item often stands between life and death. For such characters, i put TH at an extremely high priority, right behind speed/stride.

TH has probably saved the lives of any PCs, without their players ever attributing it directly to the talent. While you could argue that a talent such as +1 PV can be argued for in the same way (any time you're brought within 1-2 hp of death), 1 point of PV will only ever be 1 point of PV. TH can be anything and everything, from extra DV/PV, that potion of cure sickness when you get whacked by a kobold, that ring of free action... Most of what gets truly noticed from Treasure Hunter is rarely what is actually useful about the skill. Sure its nice to have as many scrolls of identify as you care to use... all those extra potions of holy water... a bunch of extra wands to zap to deal with a monster you could've killed in melee anyway....none of this is useful. I'm sure you'd also be familiar with the fact that the RNG can screw you far and wide. TH serves as a buffer against that as well.

Many people are surprised to learn that Casinos (real ones. Vegas.) win on the average of 53-55&#37; of the time, given a 1:1 bet. That margin is hardly a winning formula to generate any form of reliable profit from a single customer, but rather relies on the fact that over tens of thousands of instances of people winning only 45% of the time, a significant profit can be earned without generating much of a feeling that "the casino always wins". To the individual, the odds seem scarcely worse than 50/50.

Similarly, treasure hunter's true beneficial effect is when applied over the span of entire game, will perpetually provide little bonuses here and there, each of which has a very low probability of being truly useful. And when TH does save your life, you'll never notice that it did. After all, when you're a step away from death on UD:7 trying to go for HMV early, maybe that !oEH on UD:5 would've been there anyway?

[gut]

This is my kind of poster : )

LFk:
> i didn't read all 6 pages of this thread

You would have to be some kind of nut to do that!
Is it really 6 pages now?! It's about time we put a stop to
this madness : )

Here are my rankings of TH on a scale of 1 - 10, as compared
to other talents, for most PC's, throughout the game. A score
of 5 would be average, 10 would mean you couldn't ask for
better.

Exp. level 1 - 10

TH....... 3
DV....... 6
PV....... 8
SPEED.... 9
HP....... 7

Exp. level 10 - 25

TH....... 5
DV....... 5
PV....... 6
SPEED.... 7
HP....... 5

Exp. level 25 - 50

TH....... 6
DV....... 5
PV....... 3
SPEED.... 4
HP....... 3

I have concluded (in my own humble opinion), that TH does suck
in the early game. However, it does gain in value, in comparison
with the other talents, as the game progresses.

[Grey]

gut:
> If I looked it up
> though, and compared my casino loot to the list, I think many of the
> items there would be high DL. Like I said, I was mainly saying the
> casino was great in my limited turns games, not so much in regular
> ones.

You're right about rings of slaying, but otherwise I just don't find much of use there, and from my knowledge of danger levels I'd say at most 5% are higher than DL20. I could be wrong of course... My own limited turns guy didn't get much use out of there beyond spellbooks (which were indeed immensely helpful). Can't argue with the artifacts though...

> I have never noticed it. Having that sweet orc spear of devastation is
> helpful (I won't mention how small the chance is, that TH would
> actually account for that spear), but it doesn't open areas of the
> game more quickly. If you are not ready to tackle steel golems, you
> are not ready, that spear makes no difference.

Oh? I often find myself not able to tackle DarkForge (or other areas) till I find myself a good weapon. I don't agree on using the big mace - something else will make itself available. Of course TH can't be said to majorly help there, especially for orcish spears (I've never found one of devastation :( ).

> I think I might be able to
> also make a case for 'missle weapon master' as also giving up real
> benefits, in exchange for future (unne----) ones.

I personally don't have the patience to choose soooo many talents for it. Melee master is even worse.

> I have concluded (in my own humble opinion), that TH does suck
> in the early game. However, it does gain in value, in comparison
> with the other talents, as the game progresses.

Nooo! This is an internet argument! You're not allowed to be reasonable and change your mind!

I will say though, that after discussing this I'll think twice before choosing TH in future. Previously I always went for it automatically without thinking. I even took it for my speedrun wizard, and with 1879 kills he really can't have gotten much use out of it. There are certain characters, and in particular certain challenges, where it is not guaranteed to be of use.

> Is it really 6 pages now?! It's about time we put a stop to
> this madness : )

Only shows up as 2 pages with how I set up my forum options - I dread to think how many pages those competition threads must take up for you guys (only 5 on the LoM for me). But anyway, yeah, I think we've said all that can be said and come to our own conclusions now (eventually).

LFk:
> I'll admit i didn't read all 6 pages of this thread (i came back to check up on if JADE got released... nope), as I see some of these posts are extremely long winded.

And yet you make a long-winded post yourself? :P All good points though - you describe the true application of Treasure Hunter well.

[LFk]

And yet you make a long-winded post yourself? :P All good points though - you describe the true application of Treasure Hunter well.


:D

It did pile up, didn't it?.

Ah well.

I might as well indulge in a bit of ADOM... this thing is a recurring bad habit. Stay off of it for a year or two... it comes back... sounds like herpes actually.

[Elone]

This thread finally seems dead. And after 3 pages of it.

[LFk]

This thread finally seems dead. And after 3 pages of it.

Well... In the end, both of the parties that were primarily in the discussion compromised and came to reasonable conclusions, while accepting that there are different views on the utility of the talent.

How often does that happen on the internet?

[Evil Knievel]

Hehe ;)

I learned a lot from the discussion, though it were the thoughts people used to reason for or against the talent, that made me think about aspects of the game - and not so much the conclusion of the discussion.

I like the playstyle that leads to extraordinary heroic characters, who in the end always die. That is: not sticking to boring strategies, not refraining from entering the ToEF without the necessary equipment, not scumming for anything (khelly dies if there is no extraordinary luck), often saving that puppy dog or hitting keethrax with an elementalist, and using that black torc... I think the density of novel-like stories rises that way. So, I think almost any talent has its justication - apart from 'skilled' of course.

I like treasure hunter - but I also like melee weapon master or someone extraordinarily stealthy or someone with lots of magic talents... etc.

[Elone]

This thread finally seems dead. And after 3 pages of it.
Consider it bumped, as promised. If nothing else, then just to show younger members what amounts of fun we can have here, if we just try nicely.

[Grey]

You'd have to be dumb as a troll to pass up on Treasure Hunter ;P

[Elone]

It seems directed at a particular person... Naw, it's just my mind playing tricks on me.

[Silfir]

My laptop has Vista and refuses to run X-COM properly now :(

(Yeah, I've tried DOSBox, and it won't let setup.exe save my sound settings. Sigh.)

[Soirana]

uninstal vista...

[Elone]

Use Windows XP and stay the hell away from Vista. Worked for me.

[Per_Killer]

TH is the only reason I can play more than 1 game a day. (I die alot)
I've been a wizard and spent my early points on quickness etc. just to get stuck at rivers without Frost Bolt, running out of castings real early in the game and only encountering books like Knock, Calm Monster, Acid Ball and so on.. when that happens early on, it usually means to the ID for me.. And after spending 1 hour in ID getting all the stuff you feel you "need" after starting scumming, you've become restless and bored. End up dying because I've lost my patience and then getting pissed off because I died with the char I had spent 1 tedious hour collecting gear for.
I love TH. It gives me a constant supply of all the basic gear that also is NEEDED early on. (Especially for wizards) It's convenient and it rocks! :D

[Panda_Lord]

I don't know, guys. I have, in the past, made it a rule of thumb to always go for Treasure Hunter. However, I am currently playing a game without Treasure Hunter, and I have never been luckier with loot. I encountered an orc vault, and got the amulet artifact "Preserver". Afterwards, I found a spider vault, within which I found an artifact dagger: "Serpent's Sting". I also had a "Surge of Power" level this game, granting me the Bracers of War. Honestly, lootwise, this is probably one of my best games yet, and it is, ironically, one of the few I chose to play without usage of the Treasure Hunter talent. It truly makes me consider just how potent the TH talent really is, and whether it is a viable option after all.

[Silfir]

I otherwise wouldn't touch Vista with a ten foot pole, believe me. Unfortunately my laptop came pre-installed with it, and I don't think downgrading to XP is possible.

[Molach]

TH is the only reason I can play more than 1 game a day. (I die alot)


I'm gonna turn this sentence around a bit. "I die alot because I get TH"
Haha, the controversy. No seriously, in my youth, when I was a-still playing the odd wizard, I found most of my books lying on the ground. But let say half are lying on the ground. If that is so, a "normal" wizard will have 20 books, the TH wizard will have 21. One measly book out of 21, is that really worth it? And it could very likely be "know alignment", you know. The bonus talents you get can make you survive a lot better instead. And in fact kill stuff faster, so you


getting pissed off because I died with the char I had spent 1 tedious hour collecting gear for


With TH, you would have spent 57 minutes and 9 seconds instead...or mabye not. 3 extra talents would increase your exploring speed, (less time to heal, faster killing), so you might actually come out worse with TH.


It's convenient and it rocks! :D


Convenient, yes. I've won quite a few games by now, last 10 victories were all without TH. But some very smart people say it rocks, also. But I don't

[RndmNumGenerator]

The Porter talents sucks. There are other, more efficent ways of carrying items. You can use a Girdle of Carrying or Gloves of Carrying instead, and they're more efficent at it. Or you can use the Strength of Atlas spell instead. The Girdle of Greed also lets you carry much more gold then normal if you use it. There's no reason to waste three talents on this suckly line.

The Quick talents sucks. There are other, more efficent ways of gaining speed. You can wear Rings or Amulets of Speed or eat Quickling Corpses. As a Drakling you can warm yourself up to get faster. You can teleport or use Seven League Boots to get around faster as well. There's no reason to waste three talents on this suckly line.

The Skilled talents suck. Okay... maybe they really do suck. Do you get my point though?

[Soirana]

There are other mens to generate loads of things so going for same logic TH sucks.

[Silfir]

Which is what he was getting at ;)

[gut]

> The Porter talents sucks. There are other, more efficent ways of carrying items.

Agreed, for just the reasons you mention. Also, it's
worth mentioning that any PC can get their St to 18 with
nothing more than ~1000 gold pieces and the 'w5' key
combination. This not only increases carrying capacity,
but yields great benefits in other areas as well. Granted,
it takes a while for some PC's to get ~1000 gold, but
carrying capacity usually isn't a problem until then. If
you feel the need to carry more than a gazillion stones
of items in the EARLY game, you are going to cause
yourself severe mental agony by the end-game.

> The Quick talents sucks.

Pure insanity.

> There are other, more efficent ways of gaining speed.

Not for the early and mid games there aren't. The
exception is the Raven starsign, in which case I
would agree that speed talents are a double-edged
sword, as they do drain your exp. gains.

> You can wear Rings or Amulets

So where did you get THOSE? I'm talking about non-ADOMBotted
games here.

> eat Quickling Corpses.

Yes, just let me reach into my pack and pull out a couple of those.
How silly of me to have overlooked them.

> a Drakling you can warm yourself up to get faster.

Personally, I always like to start my games in the ToEF's.

> You can teleport

Quite right you are. All you need to do is be a GE mindcrafter, start
your game on Dec 31 (for the booze potions), hope you start with a
scroll of magic mapping, and visit the VDDL for the TP wand. Easy.

> use Seven League Boots

Hurray for Bards! Of course they would often have to give up TH
to get them, but we all know that's no big loss : )

> Do you get my point though

Nope, not in the slightest. The examples you gave were
making MY point.

[Alavir]

Well, i don't think the porter line of talents are that bad. If you are not a spellcaster (for them strength of atlas is enough), you can wear smithed up girgles or girgle of giant strenght and still carry tons of stuff. Also, if you do really like to carry stuff around, you can get the talents AND the itens that increase carry capacity and carry even more stuff.

And about speed, those talents are just great. Seven league boots are cool but pretty rare in the early game and dont speed up your attacks and such. There are some items which do increase speed, but again, its a tradeoff between those and other items which have other effects.

I just love athletics at 100, raven starsign and speed talents, thank you very much. Yeah, there is experience decrease, but just do the final hit in high xp monsters in the dark or with boots of slow shuffle and you still get TONS of xp and level fast.

[Ars]

> The Quick talents sucks.

Pure insanity.

> There are other, more efficent ways of gaining speed.

Not for the early and mid games there aren't. The
exception is the Raven starsign, in which case I
would agree that speed talents are a double-edged
sword, as they do drain your exp. gains.
Well there is that one place to look for corpses... Right from the start for some classes.

[mike]

Slightly off-topic (but so is everything in this thread), but people keep mentioning long stride as if it were awesome. All it does is multiply walking speed by 1.05. Note that with a typical pc, that = 105 walking speed and 100 combat speed. At higher speeds you get more of a result, but what's 10 walking speed when you already have 200? =P Speed talents, OTOH, will have an effect on both.

[Silfir]

Long Stride is better than Quick ONLY for strict running away. That's why I usually just get Quick instead - it gets me over 100 Speed, which is enough.

Do we have to discuss this all over again? Treasure Hunter is a source of convenience for many playing styles, but just like all the other talents it's something you can go without easily too. I only get it because I hate scumming and love loot.

[Elone]

Well I did bump this topic, and I almost feel sorry about that... so I hope that counts.

[gut]

> Well there is that one place to look for corpses... Right from the start for some classes.

Agreed on that, especially for spellcasters that have Food Preservation.

> just do the final hit in high xp monsters in the dark or with boots of slow shuffl

Dark?

> mentioning long stride as if it were awesome

Long stride sucks. I'd honestly rather kick thin air untli I lose 2/3 of my HP's
for the 'coward' bonus. Really, for most elves, 2/3 of their HP's is only like 4
anyway.

[Soirana]

I only get it because I hate scumming and love loot.

Actually i think best use of TH is gremlin bomb in high DL.

[Silfir]

That or the slaying of ancient blue dragons. It's pretty dangerous, so you want to increase output anyway.

Then again, we don't know by how much dragon loot is affected by Treasure Hunter.

[sgeos]

So, if I got the math right...
~5 items / ~50 kills
~5 items / ~1 min

This works out to:
~50 kills / ~1 min

If we calculate the kills in a game:
~1500 / ~30 min
~5000 kills / ~100 min
~15000 kills / ~300 min

That works out to half an hour to five hours of stair hopping, depending on what you are going for.
When this is strewn across the danger levels required to get all the equivalent items it gets worse.

I find getting something like a tower eternium shield in the UD is usually enough to push a character through the early game, and maybe even the mid game. TH is only good to the extent it generates extraordinary items or it increases the stock ever useful items (water). The rest of the junk is just a side effect of generating the useful stuff.

Extra speed can be bad if you are going for exp. Naturally, it is a definite boon if you want to gain levels slowly. (Tactical; trolls aside, exp is not an issue.)

What is this smithing for an anvil deal?

[Soirana]

Where you got part 1 item per ten kills. IIRC, that heavily depends on likeliness of mob drop item...

I mean while killing rats or gremlins this might be ven higher, but if you are dealing with blue dragons the result would be zero.

5items per minute? You serious. Remeber all items, including all food and gold i might not wanna walk upon. I would at least double.

[gut]

> Where you got part 1 item per ten kills.

Prolly from this exchange between Grey and myself on the
first page of this beast:

Grey:
>> For each I took a sample set of 400 kills. Each character
>> ended up at level 9.

>> Treasure Hunter: 98 items, 58 corpses, 20 piles of gold
>> Non-TH: 57 items, 59 corpses, 6 piles of gold

gut:
> WHAT? 98 items vs. 57! Surly I can see how good that is,
> right? Wrong. Look at the effort that went into getting
> those 41 extra items.
[snip]
> Granted, you are going to kill 400 monsters sooner or later,
> so you can get those 41 items (eventually) without the extra
> effort. I wonder though, how much extra effort it would take
> to generate those same 41 items via ID stair hopping? I say
> 10 minutes tops.

So that was just me extrapolating from Grey's data of 400
kills for a profit of 41 items. The code dived info says TH gives
an increase of 12.5% in the chance of a killed monster to drop
an item. A PC's initial chance of an item drop from a killed
monster may be 10%, 20%, 90% or whatever. As far as I know,
it's a mystery.

[Elone]

I still prefer passive skills over active skills in most games (it depends on the game). I also like percentages rather than set numbers. Skills that increase PV and DV in the early game can really save a life, but their use gets outlived quickly. TH is always effective, as some other talents are, like the Porter set of talents. Aside from this advantage of the skill, another main advantage is that it is passive. You let the game do the work for you. Some will enjoy it this way, and it doesnt mean that they are lazy either. By the way, some people already stated that they dont want to scum, therefore you dont need to keep repeating that stairhopping is a good alternative to TH.

[Silfir]

Oooh, yeah. That last thing pissed me off to no end back then too.

Stairhopping is pretty much the answer to any problem. "I don't have any good weapons" - "STAIRHOP!!!". "I don't have any spells" - "STAIRHOP!!!". "I'm looking for an AoLS" - "STAIRHOP!!!". "I can't seem to get any girl to have sex with me" - "STAIRHOP!!!".

And the last one: "I think stairhopping sucks, is boring as fuck and no fun at all." - "BLASPHEMY! STAIRHOP!!!"

[Elone]

I'd post "ROFL" here, but a post is required to be at least 10 characters long, so yeah.



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[sgeos]

Just an engineering estimate based on info posted early in the thread. Whatever the exact numbers are, it amounts to a lot of stairhopping, and stairhopping is boring. I can do it for about two minutes. Stairhopping is not recreational. It don't make me want to play the game.

You may think TH sucks, but I'd rather take it than have ADOM suck. Your mileage may vary. If you'd rather stairhop than take TH, good for you. If you'd rather do with less items, good for you.

> "I can't seem to get any girl to have sex with me"
Clearly stairhopping is way better. Don't worry about anything but stairhopping, and your life will be solved!

[Elone]

My sarcasm-meter is showing the usual zero. Totally. No mistake about it. I'm positive. Yup.

[Soirana]

The code dived info says TH gives
an increase of 12.5&#37; in the chance of a killed monster to drop
an item. A PC's initial chance of an item drop from a killed
monster may be 10%, 20%, 90% or whatever. As far as I know,
it's a mystery.

as much as i try dragons drop something...

TH percent is counted if monster does not drop thing normally [as far as i remember].

Overall, I guess it is matter of priority... I usually felt most problems are early on, if i get to char to teen levels [and do not do roleplay or something stupid] I will drive it to the end...

If you are struggling in middle and imagine you are not *scumming* [repeatedly i see no diffreence between
using *scum* and crying what your char did not found good arnmour and was torn to pieces and regenerating loads of char untill someone gets. IMO, that is your method of *scum*. Be happy with it and let others do they methods.]

Re:stairhop - actually it is not, oh, so optimal at start for weak races as you also get increased set of monsters... Actually i'd rather dig out all the graveyards at some point, cause it has some flavor in it...

Edit: I do recall seeing sorted info about *racial* [kobolds and bows, orcs and knives] percentages...

[Per_Killer]

The 'treasure hunter' talent sucks.
As has been proven through all these posts; TH does NOT suck. Close topic!

[Grey]

Edit: I do recall seeing sorted info about *racial* [kobolds and bows, orcs and knives] percentages...

Yeah, can't be arsed to dig out my stats right now, but when I did research into this I found that "standard drops" were equally affected by treasure hunter as regular items. Thus the chance of getting short bows from kobolds is roughly doubled (since the normal chance is around 10%). For guaranteed drops it obviously does diddly-squat.

With regards to dragons, I've never gone to the effort of getting a char to level 40 or so without Treasure Hunter and then experimented on the BDC to see if the dragons drop a little more loot with or without the skill. Obviously by that stage of the game TH doesn't matter so much anyway, and dragons will be an efficient way of getting items either with or without the talent.

[gut]

> been proven through all these posts; TH does NOT suck

> Stairhopping is not recreational.

> don't have any spells" - "STAIRHOP!!!".

> advantage of the skill, another main advantage is that it is passive.

Oh, for the days when people would read the OP! \0/
You are all asking for it, so I'm giving it to you.
At least part of it : )


"Of all of the above methods, to quickly generate great items, how
many are really needed? None. Yep, that's what makes me realize that
'treasure hunter' is useless. ID hopping is much better... and I
seldom use that. Pickpocketing is better... and I never use that.
Scorching gremlins is way better... and I never do that either. If all
of these 'item generating' methods are more effective, and I don't
bother with them, then why should I bother with 'treasure hunter'?"

Now does that really seem as an endorsement of scumming?
I only began mentioning scum methods for the people who
consistently posted that they simply could *NOT* live with the
regular horde of items that the ADOM game engine naturally
throws at you. I further typed:


"The only benefit that I can see to 'treasure hunter', is that it is
passive. It just happens 'on the go' so it takes no effort. This might
be useful for those who dislike using any scumming methods, but how
useful? If you have already started playing with restrictions, you
probably also know how to win without having to rely on powerful
items. Probably, other talents would serve you better, especially in
keeping early game PC's alive."

Which, to my eyes, still reads true.

[Dawky]

I've never taken the treasure hunter talent and completed multiple standard (no Ultra) wins.

Obviously the talent isn't that vital but that by no means it "sucks" either.

Each to their own...

[Soirana]

You may ask which talents do not *suck* on lv50 char...

PV line is joke with or without smithing.

Speed... depends, you can scum for quickling encounters on wilderness. At least replacable material. [i'll omit bug temple as dangerous thing.]

Magic talents... Don't know on mindcrafter book reading talents sounds good, otherwise, meh...

The only thing would probably be full archery talent set on non archer.

So IMO talents should ease your life somewhere before lv50...

How much is on your kill list before you hit tower? Divide by 10, exclude leather caps, loafs of bread and rusty knives and you will have what? Reward of aproximately one nice shop with few visits in it?

Oh, you said i need spent three talents on this... Including one on start... May be not.

[Elone]

If you have already started playing with restrictions, you
probably also know how to win without having to rely on powerful
items.


The "no stairhopping" decision is not a selfimposed challenge restriction which we do when we want a restricted game with less items. You speak of stairhopping as if it was the game's feature (and not an exploit) and that avoiding stairhopping means that we are intentionally denying the game's intended feature (to scum for many items given enough patience) for challenge.

No, we do it because it's one of the most damn boring exploits out there. And because it's an exploit. TH is at least an intended feature, and not an exploit in any way.



As has been proven through all these posts; TH does NOT suck. Close topic!


One of our moderators will see to it, stand by patiently.
Though I can see your point, you wanted this topic to be closed before Gut gets a chance to post the answer.

[Evil Knievel]

Probably it's all a difference of philosophy. Players often want to be on the safe side. They start each new game the first time on easiest setting or at least medium. They save after every corner, collect every bit of ammo in every god-forsaken place, and have loads of medikits left after the final fight... because they'd rather reload every fight than investing the nice equipment found..

Whereas Adom players (savescumming players excluded) often are different. They learned to accept that the spellbook of teleportation is drenched by the rain right before getting the chance to read it. They live with dying young very often. They strive to survive until the last breath. They feel their errors and learn from them. They have their greatest heroes sacrificed on the altar in the fire temple, right after having won monumental fights against ancient chaos wyrms.. They accept being aged to near death and get all their toughness drained and still carry on. Do they? No, not all of them. The latter thing is not a thing all players would accept, at least not until they found out how to avoid it.
And then, they find out how to avoid any risk in the game by reading about the various scumming methods. And they return to become normal players once more? They cease to risk the lives of their characters as soon as they have invested several hours in boosting them? You realize the viscious circle? You see, that avoiding the frustration of dying introduces frustration itself? The sharp edge of the game can become dull.
You see the parallel to rich people in life, not wanting to loose their high lifestyle, even if they do no longer get the maximum of happiness out of it? Happiness as a word must be (as I learned when trying to make an anagram from it) connected to 'to happen', an English word describing that things are going on. As soon as all danger and all bad things are smoothed out of life, happiness vanishes, like the light vanishes when you look into the sun for too long.
When you observe how gut has freed himself of the standard players needs, you can probably learn something for your life, too. (But I won't tell you.) It is not clear to me, if his great playing skill, allowing him to beat Adom in only ~15000 turns, gave him that freedom, or vice versa. Maybe, he took it, and had to adapt to it, gaining his tremedous skills?
However, gut, of course you must understand how the normal Adom player cannot live without that ring of ice, while you just say 'let's try the Toef naked' :)

[Silfir]

Evil Knievel wins the thread.

[F50]

Oddly enough, my second most recent monk actually found that he didn't have use for his RoI in the ToEF...

However, I am playing a monk without TH...I stairhopped. I have never had trouble finding ?uncursing and ?oI before. Even if I do I normally scum the big room for herbs and monster drops (assuming my kitty karma is toast or I have invisibillity). Mass monster murdur is very effective with TH.

I really like my low-level items. I had been having trouble with monk PV (I ignore the special monk armors anyways until midgame) so I was going for the PV talens, but unfortunately this was the only monk I rolled with a particularly low To score of 13. Not enough enough for even tough skin... Ah well, a wasted talent that. However, I think if I ever pick an R/C+starsign combo that can get more than 2 talents, I might consider delaying TH until level 9. I am surprised to find how much I *do* rely on TH.

[sgeos]

That is the problem with this whole discussion- it is so subjective, it's meaningless. If you don't need a whole lot of items, fantastic, TH is not for you. If you want loads of items, take TH. It really depends on your play style.

The discussion seems to boil down to:
gut- I find all the items I need without TH, so I don't need it.
others- We want more items than you do, and exploits are not fun; we like TH.

[Soirana]

don't put me on your side.

I will say for third times at least - if you play with so called *no scumming* TH does not kick in enough before Tower to really matter.

And i actually would list stair hopping on same list as dragon gold and wish engines. That is more or less features...

ID is clearly designed to be such as it is. It even has item on floor behaviour problems [si's], it could have been coded to exclude hop.

From roleplay perspective i want my characters live. Not generate dozen per day. This has neither lots of fun nor flavor in it.

Bonus question for TH lovers: How much games [in percent] you play without it? If it is close to zero how comes you so sure in difference?

[Elone]

I cant believe I bumped this topic... =(
Oh well, discussions (arguments) can be fun. So let's continue what we started, hmm?

> don't put me on your side.

There's a third side? Gut, others, and you? You sound edgy. This is bound to get fun. If you have the appropriate sense of humour.

> I will say for third times at least - if you play with so called *no scumming* TH does not kick in enough before Tower to really matter.

Repetition makes for longer threads, and it's not always a bad thing, either. As for the TH, you can take it at the start of the game and it will really work, netting you a lot of items. Sure they're junk items, but they're actually fitting of your low-level character.

> And i actually would list stair hopping on same list as dragon gold and wish engines. That is more or less features...

They really are becoming features, as they become less and less of a taboo and more and more of a strategy. I wouldnt like any of these to be wiped in a bugfix even if there was one, because they've become a big part of the game. The difference between these and TH, is that TH was planned and the others werent.

> ID is clearly designed to be such as it is. It even has item on floor behaviour problems [si's], it could have been coded to exclude hop.

As a scummy location? I doubt. ID was designed to offer random, undisturbed fun without a limit which says "you must stop here". There are games in which I neglect the rest of the game and go for a lovely dive for fun... sometimes corruptionless.

> From roleplay perspective i want my characters live. Not generate dozen per day. This has neither lots of fun nor flavor in it.

Yeah, for those who want to roleplay, it's kind of hard to have to start a new story about a new hero because all others died. Adapt your gameplay to your needs. Play safer characters if you want them to live long enough so that you can tell a story about them.

> Bonus question for TH lovers: How much games [in percent] you play without it? If it is close to zero how comes you so sure in difference?

Same question to you.

[mike]

Bonus question for TH lovers: How much games [in percent] you play without it? If it is close to zero how comes you so sure in difference?

I almost always have TH. The majority of games I've played have been before talents, and going just from memory, I was often missing some useful item before certain stages of the game (wand of cold before TotHK, ring of ice before ToEF, etc.). That case is much more of a rarity now.

[Per_Killer]

This entire discussion is redicilous. If anyone thinks there is any importance behind categorizing talents as "suck" and "not suck", does this mean that you think ADOM would be improved if all the talents -you- don't use got deleted?
Anyone could easily make a copy of this thread, going: "OMG swords are better than whips..WHY ISTHAT TALENT EVEN THERE?!?!?!11" ..only reason the topic is about TH instead though is because TH is a talent alot of people reccomend to new players and alot of players say they prefer to get. So, yes YOU can think that it sucks gui. But attempting to state it as a fact, is just stupid. When it's a popular talent, that's enough said.
Personally I am an inexperienced player and I try to stick to Wizard to learn as much as possible within one field and hopefully advancing faster..and I went for the obvious talents to begin with.. Quick, Long Stride, Careful etc. and sure, they helped me get past level 6.. so what? When I encountered a river, I was forced to head ID to stairscum for a book of frost bolt...zzzzz.. When I found one, I had no more castings left with my Acid Bolt and now had to stairscum to try and find another attack aside from Frost Bolt.. An evil circle of boring gameplay. Thankfully I discovered TH! I am a novice, yet I have no problems surviving earlygame with TH, and then getting the other talents.
I don't know many other classes, but Wizards need spellbooks. TH grants it. "You feel a certain tention." pretty much means anything from 0 to 3 spellbooks. Steady income of identify scrolls. Food is no problem. I fucking love TH!!

[Silfir]

Maybe the people who get Treasure Hunter all suffer from a collective delusion that it helps them?

Hmm. Let's consult research done on the topic (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.adom/browse_frm/thread/8b5e8fc489e9daa6/).

400 kills are a non-amount. I usually have 600 or something before I even smell the first level of the CoC.

Treasure Hunter: 98 items, 58 corpses, 20 piles of gold
Non-TH: 57 items, 59 corpses, 6 piles of gold

98 items versus 57? If you count the gold, it's 118 item drops versus 63? And guaranteed item drops weren't even factored in in that experiment.

In the early game, Treasure Hunter seems to double overall item gain, because it can transform negative drop results into positive ones with 15&#37; chance. If the drop chance was 5%, it becomes 20% and so on. These are significant amounts. And that's where you get many items from. Not stamped with "Brought to you by Treasure Hunter", but there.

How is it so hard to imagine that the extra items are capable of helping you? People are acting as if there are only crap items and maybe two percent are helpful. MOST items have a use. Most of the scrolls are useful, most of the wands too, and most of the potions? Certainly! Equipment... The sooner you find your first adamantium shield, the better, right? Or a shield at all with a weak PC?

Generating more items gives you a higher chance of getting the really useful ones - in NORMAL play. Without use of the ID. Without pickpocketing, even. Certainly without pickpocketing gremlin bombs. Sure you don't have guarantees, sure you will die more often because you're really only relying on chance and you don't have assloads of items for any situation thanks to a stairhop. You have a lower chance of survival overall with this playstyle. But at least you had some goddamned fun doing it.

[Grey]

I love to see my stats repeatedly quoted by people on both sides of the debate :)

[Ars]

^ you should try a game without TH and without stairhopping and see if it's that different. And surely it is never enough to say that something is popular => it is good. edit: this was meant for Per Killer, but those 2 posts got in the way...

Btw nothing forces you to have frost bolt when encountering a river.


I'm not sure when TH really pays off and when it doesn't, depends where you're having trouble. For the first 10 levels or so it usually helps very little, as said before. But if you're struggling with the tower it might be better - if you get a good shield, 7lb, AoLS, good bracers, good ring etc. before the tower with it, or rather several of those it can pay itself off. Compared to having for example 4 PV from talents, good shield for example gives much better than that.

I ended up using TH with my barbarian speedrunners, after trying other talents. Because I needed some items so badly that I maximized the possibilities of getting them in a non-turnconsuming way. ~1400 monsters were killed in the winning game, roughly half of them before the final dive and time I needed to have the needed items. That means a pile of about 70 items, I can say that was much more useful than 4 PV - for that PC.

But I too recommend other talents for weak classes like wizards, mindcrafters or whatever. As said before, you have quite enough items in a normal game if you live long enough to get them. Even without scumming.

Oh and who needs a RoIce? It's quite useless unless you have 7lbs to protect in the tower.

[gut]

> You speak of stairhopping as if it was the game's feature

You speak as though it weren't. Gemology a game feature
as well? Pickpocketing? Gremlins? Oh, how judicious post
snippages can distort! Please allow me to post just a
few more lines of my post.

"This might be useful for those who dislike using any
[read ANY] scumming methods, but how useful? If you
have already started playing with restrictions,"

I was clearly not referring to the much-maligned stairhopping,
but to scumming in general. Read GRINDING, not stairhopping.

> The discussion seems to boil down to:
> gut- I find all the items I need without TH, so I don't need it.
> others- We want more items than you do, and exploits are not fun; we like TH.

A reasonable summary, but you neglect to mention the
benefits that are MISSED by chasing TH . Please read
my OP to see my opinions of the other talents, and their
comparitive impacts on the early game. A point I have
repeated is that I think TH offers less to new players.

> Same question to you.

I chose 'alert' for ~10 -15% of PC's these days. If I play a PC
that is destined for a high kill list (thief, merchant, farmer) then
TH is nice. For powerful PC's (spellcasters, archer, barb, etc...)
that have no need for powerful items, I skip TH for speed or
HP's/PV.

> This entire discussion is redicilous

Why do you feel the need to participate in a rediculous discussion?

> you think ADOM would be improved if all the talents -you- don't use got deleted?

Um, no. Don't recall saying anything along those lines at all, actually.

> Anyone could easily make a copy of this thread,

Please go and do that.

> YOU can think that it sucks gui

Don't call me gui.

> attempting to state it as a fact, is just stupid

You are about to get on my nerves. I have embarrassed
newbies away in the past for less than this, watch it.

> Personally I am an inexperienced player

NOOOOOOOOOO??????!

> I try to stick to Wizard

May I recommend the wizard guide.

> Quick, Long Stride, Careful etc. and sure, they
> helped me get past level 6.. so what?

You should have played long enough by now to know that
getting to exp. level 6 is far from guaranteed. I think you
will find that your chances of winning the game are
signifigantly improved if you don't die before exp. level 6.

> When I encountered a river, I was forced to head ID to
> stairscum for a book of frost bolt...zzzzz..

Yeah, that's prolly the only way a wizard could come
across a SPELLBOOK OF FROSTBOLT. If you are
going to chime into this thread so rudely, please at
least read THE FIRST PAGE before making yourself
look uninformed.

> When I found one, I had no more castings left with
> my Acid Bolt and now had to stairscum to try and
> find another

You should write your own guide, your strategies are
worthy of legend.

> Thankfully I discovered TH! I am a novice, yet I have no
> problems surviving earlygame with TH, and then getting
> the other talents.

Are you getting paid for this?

> In the early game, Treasure Hunter seems to double overall item gain,

Not this again. It doesn't double overall item gains.

> so hard to imagine that the extra items are capable of helping you?

Extra items can help, if you get good ones. I would rather replace
'if' for 'when' and take my guaranteed gains.

> Generating more items gives you a higher chance of getting the really useful ones

Lottery. I'll save my dollar, thank you all the same.

[Grey]

Lottery. I'll save my dollar, thank you all the same.

I think that's the best line you've had all thread :)

For me I think an important thing is I don't value the other talents much, apart from Long Stride (which many are keen to kick in favour of the speed talents - for shame). The PV talents look nice, but the requirements are uncertain - I hate starting the PV path with initial talents only to be disappointed by not being able to take them because my To is too low. Getting the much nicer Steel Skin requires so much To that the only chars who can get it simply don't need it (Healers are maybe the only exception). Long Stride is equivalent to the first two speed talents for me (the combat difference is negligible at best) so there's no need to pursue that line initially, though I like to pick up the speed talents later. So I'm not really losing a dollar better spent on other things as long as I make sure I pick up Long Stride at level 1 or 3, and TH by level 6 or 9.

TH at level 1 isn't hugely worth it though, since it only takes a handful of kills to get to level 3, and not much more to level 6. The chance of TH producing extra items over this low number of kills is fairly minimal. After level 6 or 9 though the requisite kills goes up dramatically and TH begins to shine a lot more. From level 9 up until the Casino, when you'll kill on the order of 5000 monsters (often low level monsters like summons), Treasure Hunter will kick in with some handy loot. But if you rush through this section of the game you won't kill as much and it won't seem so important.

I'd personally say TH contributes around 1-5% of items very early game (up to level 9), 10-20% of items up to the Tower, and maybe 7% or so after the Casino. For my gameplay style anyway - for others it will vary wildly. And what also varies wildly is how much you even value that (is 10% good or bad?), which is why we have such a wide spectrum of opinions on the talent.

[Soirana]

If you need pick sides I am on gut's. To other questions - I think i need to write some coherent text.

What the hell Treasure hunting is?

When i started playing ADOM i knew nothing about TH. It never appeared on my choice list...
After i found it in ingame manual, tried and got disgusted. How much more treasure? What kind of treasure? Meh...

When i read the guidebook:


TREASURE HUNTER -- Finds more items.
Prerequisites: Alert, Miser
Rating: 9

Considered by many to be the best talent overall. I estimate that a
character with the Treasure Hunter talent gets about 50&#37; more items
than one without. The quality of items is unaffected, but 50% is a
whole lot. Well worth the two prerequisites, in my opinion.


50%! Best talent! Must have it! Surprisingly my death ratio increased... [overall i was picking speed talents before that].
Let's figure this -
TH is 12.5% chance of item if monster does not drop random [corpses and specific [like bows from kobolds] aside]. ToGu had said lowest drop ratio is 10%. [will provide link if need arises]. So that extra 11% on top of 10% while you kill rats and goblins... [actually for rats that is whooping 100+% percent increase]
Obviously you get zero out of dragons.

There is still few questions:
Does gold counts as item [I would say so, but no hard proves]?
Does certain monters [dragon's aside] have diffrenet chances [somewhere before or around gama9 according to Thomas statements there were different drop ratio for specials/non specials - example of special used to be vault monster. So gnoll from vault had another drop value than his wild random brother]
Does drop ratio changes due to DL.?
Does this affect monster killed by other means, aka not by player? [well, ToGu statements are somewhat contradicting. At least code snippet he posted does not make calls for kill source, but is hard to check without full knowledge of context, aka whole code]

Of course there is a question what treasure we are speaking about...

One more archeological dig

DAvidByron 2004 May 14
gold 50,000 [weight of appeareance in this context]
iron ration, large ration, water, clothes and rock/s (5s): 10,000 each

Put together these 6 items should represent nearly 40% of encounters
at level 2 (water is not available until level 2 for some odd reason.


This gets better later but not terrifying as other items are lot lot of rarer [basically drop two zeros]. So you can discount 1/3 of TH effect to what i called *pile of gold in leather cap, next to loaf of bread*.

The most wrongest assumption is - it gives % of item total. As said it gives extra dops. Which is not the majority of items at any rate, unless you are sticked to certain place [like say leveling to 50 in wilderness, or the way I did kill Terinyo [abusing spellbook of summon monsters]].

So is this beneficial to newbie? I would call newbie someone who is happy to make to dwarftown...

What is average kill number ? Aground 500ish [barely making for coarage test] in my opinion. That is 55 items. 22 being not worth seeing. So we get 33 so called *treasure* items at cost of three talents of what? 5-6 talents character had at best? Do you really believe it would beat +9 speed or +6DV from shield?
Especially considering real newbie does not know real power of some stuff like:
scroll of item detection being equal to wand of teleportation, or what best use of potion of exchange is ring stack on DL8?

So i went back to my speed and shields. I also started reading froums [mainly brinkster] and lots of guys were swearing by TH as it is answer to all problems...
At that time i was in stage that if i reach Casino i would very likely win game.
There were basically two problems:
chaos piranhas and wyrm in hot tower.

Let's sort that - which ever quest your take [healing or herbalism] you get your way to make bridges. Bridge building sucks, but not so much. I did that in some non-magic games. You hardly need over ten logs and there is good source of them in animated forest [way more fun than lumberjacking]. I used to believe food preservation and weapon of hunting helps, but was repeatedly told that is not true. May be. Still drop percentage is not bad.
Shipping 8000s to place is another problem. In worst case scenario you can play with wand of monster creation and pile of booze. Vortex radius depends on players willpower so with water orb... You get idea - you do not even need give up herbalism to cross that.
Bottom line here is you do not need that ring to finish off game. Eternal guardian does not follow you down and there is no extreme need to resurface for regular win.

End of part one.

[Meat]

Treasure Hunter does not make you awesome. Bottom line. Being awesome is what matters.
http://www.nuklearpower.com/images/fighterclub/fighterclub04.jpg

[Soirana]

Part 2 due to 10K limit. You can report me if you like.
So we are left with tower. I guess your kill number depends on playstyle and few other things. In time I used to be in top skill I was doing ToEF before water temple on regular basis. Why? To save some time for climbing...

I looked at my collection of saves. At Tower i have 2.5-3.0 thousand kills. Well, again i am fan of herbalism in semi pacified places[aka isolated part of level, while other part dpoes not have enough mobs to eradicate generation totally], when i can kill mobs while training up. I also hardly pass any goblin without whacking him pror tower [and usually check his pockets too].

So that is probably high end department. 300 items - 200 after dropping clothes and rocks. [keep in mind i read Thomas claiming creatures more frequently drop they are ammo if they are shooters].
Overall that is comparable to digging out graves [all] or twice the visit to mamma dragon lair [which would win as it is higher DL]
Let me think what i need [or rather i was needing at time i was struggling in Tower]:
Ring of ice - very nice but i would not get sky high in hopes to get it.
Fireprrof blankets - dwarven quests gives me.
Weaponry - darkforge usually provides with some high metal weapon of choice.
Artifact armour - you have artifact armor and gauntlets guaranteed. Add ring of high kings [fire resist, bonus to PV/DV] and a visit to darkforge. Mithril boots/girdle from dwarf for some classes.
Shields - you can take shot at Rolf's shield, but usually clearing few vault gives me something passable and unflamable.
Healing - dwarf quest+herbs, gives all you need.
Invisibility - one blessed potion does the trick regularly. That much i do found with or without TH.
Disabling wyrm [I used to play nearly 100&#37; assassins and they can manufacture potions of blindness via alchemy] - wand or spell of stunning/potion of confusion/blindness/paralyzation.
Means of confusion resistance - eat morgia and put water orb where it belongs.
Well, probably TH wins in disabling department as long as you do not get spoily enough to curse few pots of invisibility...
Otherwise i can have everything...

I kept taking TH at that time somewhat later in 9-12 levels... [so cut another 30-40 items from list]. The one of reasons was i usually do not have *good enough* talents at lv50, so why to pick doubtful Aggresive or head for Missile weapon master, while i have somewhat help through TH.
Well, at time of ToEF you and me are not swimming in talents. I usually cross it between lv18-21 [non troll]. That is six talents+starting ones. I would call that 8.

So what i would pick if i could reshape my talents via divine intervention before entering Tower.

Speed... Actually not. Due to my limited tests Wyrm is generated somewhat adjusting to char. If you are 125 speed on entering do not be surprised if Wrym is 110+. On other hand being vanilla 100 you can hope it being 95. Not much of edge here. [it has been reported Wyrm is actually dependent on Char level and called insane for lv50 chars].

Defense/Protection - I'd rather smith a bit. Or read few scrolls.

Basher line --- +6 to hit +6 to damage. If i am Barb relying on tremendous blows when yeah. [with x3 any damage is good]. In that case i take Natural Berseker.

Immune to pain. basically let's you cheat with fire resist sources, which means you can put on that awesome ring of slaying, or swap gauntlets for Ironfist. I personally would take archery gloves over elementals...
Well, i often do that simply living with one damage per turn. Immune to pain lets me cheat on two slots... Has some synergy with early game survival, but still not so hot for amount of talents it takes.

Missile ones - that was actual reason is topped taking Treassure Hunter at that period.
You can get Good shot [1], Keen shot [2], Quick[3] as prerequisite and good overall, Quick shot [4] which does edge out Wyrm, triple afinities [bow, xbow, thrown spears][5-7] and missile master[8].
With archery replace master with eagle eye and spear affinity with lightning shot.
Sorry no place for TH.

So i pick 10% speed of attack and +8 to hit and +6 to damage over 200 of random loot?
Wait a second, i could still pick all that skipping missile master and two affinities. So i trade TH for +3 to hit +3 to damage?
Exactly. And no I am not on drugs.
First as i stopped bashing wyrm I started surviving better. At very worst you can keep off direct line and shoot him down. just pacify level bellow with red worms and take him to that playground. Second bastard quite oftenly walks into me even if blind.
On other hand i would evaluate my chances of digging out [great treasure graves] out dragon or regular slaying ammo higher when yours finding wand of paralyzation in that heap of 200 items. [as said pot of blindness, stun wand=cursed potion of invisibility and if you can't scrap to pots of invisibility before tower...]
The way missile criticals goes my +3 will get x4 on average. That is 12 damage per round... If i do not dig or found proper slayers... Well, in that case i probably have something like giant slaying ammo, which at least will give me damage than regular ones...

Well, such talent pick up lasted a bit while i figured that i can simply switch to coward and blast Wyrm with any [non fire] attack wand while drinking some potions.
Booze as you know is virtually unlimited in ADOM.

Okay, so i come to point.
TH does not help me survive early.
TH does nothing spectacular for ToEF.
TH does nearly nothing to ease your reach of Casino.
TH gives aproximately same amount of stuff as it is in Casino except of most being generated with lower DL.
I have no problems to force restock Casino if in need. In reality I pile all things in corner and it restocks [about half initial amount] while i play with slot machines or take visit to surface. So i would call TH obsolete after Casino.
Especially since i have no special needs. I can live with granted stuff/crowning gift/ my non TH luck.

Nowadays I rarely play with TH [over my lifetime it would be 50/50]. But i play rarely at all. At very best 2 chars per month survive generation [I usually prefer to get red haired female assassins with certain family history or something like that] and reach Terinyo to start they questing carrier.

As conclusion i would not say TH does nothing. If you lookk at item weights i gave before, one thing is clear.
It gives more water.
Well, as i am hoarder, in my non TH games I've been in situation when i do not have enough water to bless my collection of 15PoGA.
Fixed in 10 minutes of stairhop.
And how much time you spend regenerating that treasure hunting dead meat you call *chars*?

[Soirana]

Promised extra - Long Stride

Let sort few things quickly.

That is pretty much +5 speed while walking. Which goes obsolete after 7Lb or some class powers. I believe with 7LB it still give a bit, but that does not really matters.

Of course there are few places i would not go with my only 7LB. Mainly tower or blue dragon test. Wait if i do not need them in tower when why i need them? Well, to get that awesome 40day Ultra if i took that as Heir gift.

It goes more or less obsolete after having tp wand.

Vs quick
-early game - quick speed your attacks, casts and so on... Is till think stride edges out as attacks can be improved with weapon skill [lowers energy use]. Once again mobs do adjust to char. You are more likely [in my oh not so humble opinion] to meet 110 speed assassin in black market if you take quick on your high DX elf.

Long stride does not cause that... But if you in problem you will probably be in mode there you can get low hp move bonus on coward. Still survival wise Stride edges out quick alone, as you get more running power.
Just keep some ammo to fire from safe distance.
Well, problem is if you do not have room to run. Quick might gave extra attack, while Stride will be good in your log.

-late game- speed is wellcome. On other hand Stride will be probably forgotten.

Xp hit. Guidebook states speeding gives xp hit. Well, just take few rations more and drop if you need run...
Seriously i did some testing of how much Raven[+10 speed] gets. I've cleared Terinyo area, pushed towards HMW and when to dwarftown.

Repeatedly it was about one xp level - 14 to 15 if i remember correct.

So i would pick quick. Long Stride does not have enough edge early on.

[Molach]

Well written, S. Long stride taken down a notch...but I would still recommend it to newer players. Combine it with one or to speed talents, and you can sega outrun anything. My power chars get speed-ish talents, my weaklings get the PV talents first.

"This discussion is pointless"

Well, the fact that there is still discussion disproves that statement. This recent discussion has brought some new insight that is mabye not obvious to all:

* Inexperienced players say they always get TH, and that it is the bestest talent in the whole world.
* Some advanced players say they use TH, and state good reasons therefore.
* Some advanced players say TH is overrated (humourously by stating "it sucks") and give reasons why they think so.

Now, what is missing is inexperienced players saying they do not take TH. This lack of variance amongst the inexperienced is for me an indication that they have been brainwashed by manual and guidebook to always go for TH.

So this thread is among other things a crusade to enlighten the newer players, and at least show that the TH talent is not the end-all talent they think it is.

My best way to convince new players to spend 3 talents otherwise would be something like this:
* You find pretty many items anyway. Pickpocketing, On floor, Gravedigging, Shopping, Guaranteed Items are all independant of TH.
* You did not find something you need? Do not sit and moan about not having TH. GO KILL SOME MORE. That will have the bonus of transferring some experience to your character, making him/her stronger.
* Read Soiranas post again.
* Play a game without TH, and post how you died. Was it from missing one critical piece of item? If not - no worry there.

When I started playing (and after reading guidebook) I always took TH. Now I take it mabye 10 %.

[F50]

Its not just if you are missing one critical item.

If you are missing some critical but *common* (potions of water, scrolls of identify, scrolls of uncursing, offensive spellbooks if you are wizard etc.) items at any point (ok, perhaps after level 13 only) need to completely stop what you are doing to go get them, TH can help.

If you are missing a critical item, you go look for it. Failure to do so has nothing to do with TH.

[Maul]

Well written, S. Long stride taken down a notch...but I would still recommend it to newer players. Combine it with one or to speed talents, and you can sega outrun anything. My power chars get speed-ish talents, my weaklings get the PV talents first.

"This discussion is pointless"

Well, the fact that there is still discussion disproves that statement. This recent discussion has brought some new insight that is mabye not obvious to all:

* Inexperienced players say they always get TH, and that it is the bestest talent in the whole world.
* Some advanced players say they use TH, and state good reasons therefore.
* Some advanced players say TH is overrated (humourously by stating "it sucks") and give reasons why they think so.

Now, what is missing is inexperienced players saying they do not take TH. This lack of variance amongst the inexperienced is for me an indication that they have been brainwashed by manual and guidebook to always go for TH.

So this thread is among other things a crusade to enlighten the newer players, and at least show that the TH talent is not the end-all talent they think it is.

My best way to convince new players to spend 3 talents otherwise would be something like this:
* You find pretty many items anyway. Pickpocketing, On floor, Gravedigging, Shopping, Guaranteed Items are all independant of TH.
* You did not find something you need? Do not sit and moan about not having TH. GO KILL SOME MORE. That will have the bonus of transferring some experience to your character, making him/her stronger.
* Read Soiranas post again.
* Play a game without TH, and post how you died. Was it from missing one critical piece of item? If not - no worry there.

When I started playing (and after reading guidebook) I always took TH. Now I take it mabye 10 %.

I'm a newb and I rarely ever take TH. It's just because there is no lack of items, you can always get more. As far as I'm concerned, getting TH is just like killing more monsters, getting more items.

[Molach]

OnE oF uS!!! OnE oF Us!!!

I think I'll get away from my earlier statement by claiming that you, sir Maul, are no longer a newb.

TH can provide items faster. That is given. But for many people, "safer" should come before "faster". Like me. I used to die alot because I didn't play safe. And less time spent dying, is more time spent fining good stuff. Hehe.

[Per_Killer]

Actually, all of the guides I have read states that TH is a waste for newbs, and rather reccomend getting talents that help for survival and tell me to stairhop ID for basic supplies instead. However, I don't even consider scumming as playing.
Yes yes yes, you are advanced players that don't need TH AND don't need to scum. However, I think most newbs depend on one or the other. I just think scumming seems "unnatural"; there's no motivation for anyone to scum unless it was an EASIER way of getting items than actually hunting them. So, for anyone that don't need TH and don't need to scum; Yes, I can see how TH is useless to -you-. For the rest of us, it's basically a moral question. Obtain items -easier- by using an in-game feature, or an exploit? I choose to rather die, keeping it real, using TH than "succeeding" by using exploits. :)

EDIT: Oh and why I say this "discussion" is pointless is because if you look at all arguements for and against, it basically looks like this;

"I disagree. I use TH, I find TH useful, so therefore TH does NOT suck"
"PWHAH! I DON'T use TH, so I find it useless. It DOES suck!!"
"Pffft that's bullshit, I use TH all the time and think it does wonders, and so it does not suck!"

..it's the same as saying "I don't like porkchops...SO PORKCHOPS SUCK!"

IT'S A MATTER OF OPINION, which for some reason the anti-THers don't want to understand. Fools.

[Grey]

Soirana:
> This gets better later but not terrifying as other items are lot lot of rarer [basically drop two zeros].
> So you can discount 1/3 of TH effect to what i called *pile of gold in leather cap, next to loaf of bread*.

Surely you realise this is quite a poor representation? This only applies on danger level 1. How many DL1 areas are there? To clarify though, Treasure Hunter does indeed increase gold drops significantly by my research - roughly doubles them at the low levels I was testing.

Actually, that's one small use for TH early on - all the junk you pick up can be sold to raise money for Detect Traps or black market stuff. Of course this small novelty wears off quick, and I'd never choose TH purely for that reason.

With regards to your note on Tower preparations, I would repeat an earlier sentiment of the thread in that you're representing how you can do the Tower with greater ease than many others. Many of your comments are geared towards more expert play. For those who struggle to ever reach the Tower TH can lubricate the journey a little. But again I stress that it shouldn't be at the cost of other initial talents that might serve them better.

As for the Long Stride debate... I think we need a new topic on this, but I don't have time right now. Will start one later. All I'll say right now is that the chance of +2 speed affecting combat is very low - only kicks in 1 in 50 turns after all. Long Stride is an easy guarantee that you can run away from most early monsters. Doesn't survive its usefulness past level 12 or so, but its saved the lives of literally hundreds of early characters for me. Especially handy when weak characters run into wilderness encounters (and keeping away from those bloody jackals). +2 speed just doesn't give enough of an edge, and having to spend 2 whole talents to equal it seems a waste. Besides I only want it for the ability to run away, so any combat benefit is irrelevant. Getting the low hp + Coward bonus is strictly a last resort, not a replacement, and won't help you if you get surrounded - Long Stride can stop you getting surrounded in the first place.

[Ars]

Per Killer, it's not just an opinion whether TH is a good thing to take. That's like saying that porkchops are good for your health just because they taste good. It is a good thing for your PC's survival or it isn't - that hasn't got much to do with whether you like playing with it or not.

[Soirana]

Soirana:
Surely you realise this is quite a poor representation? This only applies on danger level 1. How many DL1 areas are there? To clarify though, Treasure Hunter does indeed increase gold drops significantly by my research - roughly doubles them at the low levels I was testing.


DL2 to be exact. Water is DL2. DL1 is sort of better for searching out initial shield by healthy margin.

I can dig my old collection of Adom files [gto coppied to CD from my very old computer I started playing Adom] and drag exact item weights. I somehow do not think it is proper to post it.

Have bad emmorry about one discussion wich ended in deleted posts *cough, cough*.

Most have weight bellow 100, IIRC. If you add clubs/throwing clubs/leather caps/leather boots to mix I doubt you will edge at 75&#37; of items worth keeping untill ID before dwarftown.

Well, on other hand mithril items start kicking in at DL3, so that gives some early advantage to that depth.

to Per Killer:
I hardly know a person [gut?] who not used TH heavily at certain point. basically due to guidebook brainwash.

I actually think all topic goes from two ilussions:
A) Adom being easy game. Relatively true i do not think someone in Crawl is crying about *scumming*.
B) First leads to believe you could beat game *your way* with a bit of help. Of course you need few good things TH will provide.

Actually i do agree with Gut that you are playing with restrictions. I do not believe these games are meant been played by unspoiled or unscummy persons[before guidebook i never spoke with elder about quests. Portal, yes, Rolf sometimes...]. If you want to play *your way* [rather than adjusting to game reality] that is fine. But does not make TH even bit better or worse.

re me and tower: Bonus story

My first *clean* [no reloads] victory looked like this
I used two chars *clean* orcish priest [awesome starting stuff+spellcasting] and *saveloader* type elf paladin [had same sense of humor i guess]. The later was test rabit for any crazy ideas i got [I was somewhere in process of assimilating guidebook], while the former put in practice most reliable ones.

One thing i could not do reliable was Wyrm. Clearing minions was okay as i choosed "p"ower in Terinyo.
I actually ended by using blessed scroll of familiar summoning which is nearly granted in dwarftown.
Got Ancient Karmic Dragon who kicked Wyrm's ass for good.

[Per_Killer]

Per Killer, it's not just an opinion whether TH is a good thing to take. That's like saying that porkchops are good for your health just because they taste good. It is a good thing for your PC's survival or it isn't - that hasn't got much to do with whether you like playing with it or not.

That's also a matter of opinion. If anything that doesn't help toward SURVIVING = suck. As you might have seen, many say that TH isn't neccecary but -convenient-. You can deem a talent as good if it increases your fun with playing the game too, not ONLY if it affects your survival. ;p And as for your comment on porkchops.. Anyone can say they like or dislike porkchops. As can anyone state as a fact that they don't think TH is any good. There's a difference between saying "TH sucks" and "TH sucks for me".

[Silfir]

As for porkchops not being healthy, well, why must they be? Because we have to watch our health in real life. What about ADOM? Can't we afford to eat porkchops there, so to speak? It's a game, after all! There are thousands of approaches, thousands of goals, thousands of playing styles. Some will welcome Treasure Hunter, some won't. Some will result in more dead characters. What does it matter as long as people have fun while playing? I can spend hours to scum myself an immortal extremely powerful PC, but if I don't find an ounce of fun doing that, what benefit is it to me? I like the challenge I retain by exploiting beneficial features only as much as I have to, and I like loot. Survival, as much as it may surprise, need not always be the highest ideal.

[gut]

> PV talents look nice, but the requirements are uncertain

You only need To at 12, so it's fine for all
non-elves, even with no morgia.

> Steel Skin requires so much To that the only chars who can get it

Not needed for immune to pain.


> Part 2 due to 10K limit. You can report me if you like.


THAT was the best line of the thread!

> OnE oF uS!!! OnE oF Us!!!

I'm loving this!


> you, sir Maul, are no longer a newb

Second that.

> I hardly know a person [gut?] who not used TH heavily at
> certain point. basically due to guidebook brainwash.

Funny about that, I played the first ~75% of my
ADOM 1.1.1 games with TH for just the reason you
mention. It was only after joining the forums and
getting hordes of insider info that I began to
question TH. So if you are looking for someone to
blame for all this mess, it's mainly Grey's fault.
After freeing myself of my TH addiction, I noticed
*NO* difference in game-play, not in the slightest.

> There's a difference between saying "TH sucks" and "TH sucks for me".

Actually, I agree on that one. I think you are
putting too much stock into that line though.
It was more of a troll line than anything, and
most of the people that knew me (I mean people
that had frequented ADOM boards for a while)
realized that. Simply reading the OP would have
let you realize that I already made exception
for various playstyles.

"This might be useful for those who dislike using any
scumming methods"

See.

[mike]

victory looked like this
I used two chars *clean* orcish priest [awesome starting stuff+spellcasting] and *saveloader* type elf paladin [had same sense of humor i guess]. The later was test rabit for any crazy ideas i got [I was somewhere in process of assimilating guidebook], while the former put in practice most reliable ones.

One thing i could not do reliable was Wyrm. Clearing minions was okay as i choosed "p"ower in Terinyo.
I actually ended by using blessed scroll of familiar summoning which is nearly granted in dwarftown.
Got Ancient Karmic Dragon who kicked Wyrm's ass for good.

That is pretty awesome. My first kill of him was with a drakish archer using far slayer and thunderstroke. Went to shoot him, got a critical, and he died in one shot. I remember saying something like, "Hey you guys, he's not that tough."

[sgeos]

> A reasonable summary, but you neglect to mention the
> benefits that are MISSED by chasing TH .

Everything is a tradeoff.
Yes, early game talents help players survive in the early game, but they are next to useless in the endgame.
One could just as easily say (and people have) that taking a few extra PV early on is a waste because they don't really help out at the end of the game.
If you feel that surviving the early game is a free pass to beating the game, then early game talents are definitely for you.

> Please read my OP to see my opinions of the other talents, and their
> comparitive impacts on the early game.

If you are asserting that TH is not an early game talent, I will agree.

> A point I have repeated is that I think TH offers less to new players.

Depends on your definition of new player. They range from people who starve in the wilderness to where ever you want to draw the line. Never beaten ToEF? Never beaten the game?

[Elone]

It's been nice arguing with you Gut, because you seem to know what you're talking about and are backing it with proven experiences (meaning, ahem, you dont troll). I may still disagree with the rest of your posts in this thread, but that last one of yours was, welll.... it has laid out quite a few facts which I agree with.

Oh well, now that you posted so many long posts, and were reported, and got away with it... it seems that you kinda encouraged some otherr people to do the same (write long posts, form their own one-person groups). I feel unbiased about this, by the way. How do you feel about being a pioneer?

Edit: Yes, it's all Grey's fault! =P

[Ars]

As for porkchops not being healthy, well, why must they be?

Who said they must be? As I said, play with TH if it makes you feel better, but then admit that and don't claim that you play with TH because it makes your PCs survive longer.

[Meat]

wow, even for the internet this is a grievous shortage of awesomeness. I think i'll take the one or two things i actually learned from you tools and be on my way XD

[Elone]

It's better (even if less exciting) that our thread leans more towards boredom, than towards a flamewar. On this forum, it seems that mature people outnumber the trolls, haters, and other people who'd do anything for lulz.

[gut]

For the life of me I can't figure out why people insist on
chiming into a thread to say things like "This thread is
rediculous!", "This thread is boring!", "This thread is
short on awesomeness!", or "What about porkchops?!".
My goodness people, if you don't like the thread, then
just read the others.


> form their own one-person groups

Yes, but that's just the start. I'm currently uploading
to youtube a feature length video about my feelings
regarding the TH talent. I'll post the link after my
modem churns out the other 500 mega's of it.

> If you are asserting that TH is not an early game talent, I will agree.

That's kind of how things ended last time. TH was
considered weak for the early game, good for the
middle and (along with all other talents) not much
for the end. High kill lists add value, small kill lists
decrease value. Anti-scumming playstyle adds value,
and nearly any scumming methods decrease it.

Time to end it again?

[Elone]

I'm currently uploading
to youtube a feature length video about my feelings
regarding the TH talent. I'll post the link after my
modem churns out the other 500 mega's of it.


Save an audio, so that more of your feelings fits in. Heck, fill those 500MB with plain text, I know you have the potential for it. =)

[Soirana]

i am pretty sure that is plain text...

Otherwise it would not be so small

[Grey]

> PV talents look nice, but the requirements are uncertain

You only need To at 12, so it's fine for all
non-elves, even with no morgia.

> Steel Skin requires so much To that the only chars who can get it

Not needed for immune to pain.

Iron Skin requires 15 To, which many chars don't start with, especially the ones that would benefit from the extra PV. Immune to Pain requires both To and Wi at 15, further reducing its user base. 2 talents for 1 PV seems a waste. 3 talents for 2 PV or 4 talents for 3 PV is much better, but you need to be get them early enough to have an effect. If you don't get Immune to Pain till level 9 or later it seems a waste - by that stage I'll generally have equipment I'm happy enough with. I'd rather go for the speed tree, which is for me better served by Long Stride, and so with nothing else taking up my early talent desires I'll happily get TH by level 9.

Playing Brimstone Man a lot has especially embittered me against Immune to Pain - takes bloody ages to roll a char that meets the stat requirements.


Funny about that, I played the first ~75% of my
ADOM 1.1.1 games with TH for just the reason you
mention. It was only after joining the forums and
getting hordes of insider info that I began to
question TH. So if you are looking for someone to
blame for all this mess, it's mainly Grey's fault.

Blame the only one who has ever done any empirical research into the effects of Treasure Hunter :P Just typical of your subversive nature, gut! Brainwashing people against the holy talent, stirring up a flamewar on it, and then trying to defoul the sole purveyor of truth and justice in the world! Is there no end to your criminal communist conspiracy?!

I bet secretly you choose TH with every character, and this is all a ploy to get others to stop using it so you get all the best items for yourself...

[vogonpoet]

If we time the next revival of this thread for November, gut can kill two birds with one stone and explain the pros and cons of the TH skill using an extended metaphor of some kind, and/or perhaps a parallel story with several characters whose lives are in some way connected, but which we don't find out about until right at the end, one of whom has the TH skill, one of whom chose the PV line, and one of whom went for the extended ball juggler, club juggler, plate spinner, melee juggling master line of talents, all of which can then be submitted as a nanowrimo (http://www.nanowrimo.org/). I think that would be ubercool.

[gut]

> Iron Skin requires 15 To

Whoops. One might think I would have
known that by now.

> I'll happily get TH by level 9.

I still say immune to pain is worth the
fuss as long as you get it before the
tower. Exp. level 18 is fine for most,
of corse a nice RDSM can devalue it's
biggest benefit completely. If one is going
for TH, they should prolly get it by exp.
level 9 or 12 for full benefit. Here is
a pointless list of possible talent tree
possibilities, and some thoughts on them.
I will assume only 1 startup talent, as
that's all that is guaranteed for all PC's.

Straight TH line:
1st at startup ...... alert.....no help
2nd at level 3...... miser.....no help
3rd at level 6...... TH........no help at this point, but gains
................................value with time
4th at level 9...... speed 1...very little at this point
5th at level 12...... speed 2...little at this point
6th at level 15.......speed 3...somewhat helpful
7th at level 18.......careful?..irrelevant

No TH line:
1st at startup ...... speed 1...helpful
2nd at level 3...... speed 2...helpful
3rd at level 6...... hardy.....a bit helpful
4th at level 9...... tough sk..helpful
5th at level 12...... iron sk...helpful
6th at level 15...... ItP.......helpful
7th at level 18...... speed 3...helpful

TH mix line:
1st at startup ...... alert.....not helpful
2nd at level 3...... speed 1...helpful
3rd at level 6...... speed 2...helpful
4th at level 9...... miser.....not helpful
5th at level 12...... TH........helpful
6th at level 15...... speed 3...helpful
7th at level 18...... careful?..irrelevant

So I suppose my annoyance with TH is mainly
in the area of the straight TH line. However,
I still think there is more assistance in
just dropping it.

> can then be submitted as a nanowrimo <http://www.nanowrimo.org/>.

I followed that link and found these lines:

" Anna, you're a five-time NaNoWriMo winner and ML, and you host
a gut-busting event in March..."

Coincidence? I don't think so. This thread IS a gut-busting
event in March!

[Grey]

So I suppose my annoyance with TH is mainly
in the area of the straight TH line.


Which I'm not fully sure anyone is suggesting :)

Personally my default talent line is:

Level 1: Alert
Level 3: Long Stride
Level 6: Miser
Level 9: Treasure Hunter

If I have spare starting talents then I'll usually choose something immediately helpful to the class, like the faster healing one for folks without Healing (can be helpful in the first couple of levels) or maybe an archery one for classes that start with missiles. TH can wait until 12 if there's something else I feel I should pick up first, but I'll always get it 9 or 12.

As for Immune to Pain... I just don't see the point that well. For the Tower I will pretty much always have Ring of the High Kings, elemental gauntlets and corpse resistance. If I don't have corpse resistance then I'll dive into the Tower to get it. If I've avoided the High Kings dungeons for a speedrun I'm still almost guaranteed to have a fire resistance ring about. On top of that there's still the chance of crowns of fire, RDSM, red weapons, bracers of resistance and immunity from crowning. I've never found myself in a position where I've thought it was a pity I hadn't picked up ItP. More often than not I'll have an alternative to the RotHK so I can wear a more useful ring. Of course if you like the talent and tend to get it anyway then it may provide an added bonus, but I don't think it should be touted as a tactic for the Tower (I love alliteration).

[gut]

> Personally my default talent line is:

Pathetic. Little to no help for a PC in the early game,
except for running like a scared rabbit. It is a good
thing that you level your guys up to exp. level 20 in
the village dungeon. They would be wiped out in
seconds should they stray to the worthwhile dungeons
the rest of us brave adventurers frequent.

: )

> For the Tower I will pretty much always have

If one adores items, and doesn't mind hoping/waiting for
them, that's fine. Notice the sources of -fire you mention
are rare, except the guaranteed ones. With ItP + two (or
even one) of the guaranteed -fire items the Tower is instantly
available. That's what makes a talent uber-cool to me, being
so powerful it can open up parts of the game that would
normally have to be delayed.

> I don't think it should be touted as a tactic for the Tower

Ahh, but you are a nut. It's OK though, so am I. Newbies
shouldn't do the ToEF's with ItP + 1 source of -fire, but
to say ItP shouldn't be touted is just scandalous. It should
be praised with the reverence it is due.

[sgeos]

> Anti-scumming playstyle adds value, and nearly any scumming methods decrease it.

Unless, of course, you are going for maximum scumming efficiency. The you want TH and you want to do (all of the above scumming methods).

[Grey]

> Personally my default talent line is:

Pathetic. Little to no help for a PC in the early game,
except for running like a scared rabbit. It is a good
thing that you level your guys up to exp. level 20 in
the village dungeon. They would be wiped out in
seconds should they stray to the worthwhile dungeons
the rest of us brave adventurers frequent.


Whilst your 3 hp and 1 PV save you from the horrors and hells of the grown-up dungeon! :P Long Stride lets me run away, and that's all you need to survive in ADOM ;)



If one adores items, and doesn't mind hoping/waiting for
them, that's fine. Notice the sources of -fire you mention
are rare, except the guaranteed ones.Fire corpses and rings are not rare, and the two guaranteed items provide the rest. Like I said I've never had to put off doing the tower. Maybe treasure hunter helps :P



Ahh, but you are a nut. It's OK though, so am I. Newbies
shouldn't do the ToEF's with ItP + 1 source of -fire, but
to say ItP shouldn't be touted is just scandalous. It should
be praised with the reverence it is due.It is a crutch for the feeble-minded!

[vogonpoet]

vp's PCs TH habits:
Yeah
Personally, if I am playing a PC who doesn't actually need much in the way of items (wizards, elementalists, monks, beastie boys) then I obviously won't go with TH. What the hell does a beserking beastie boy need anything for?
Its
If I am playing very weak PCs, and actually trying for a nice careful win, then obviously, I won't go with TH, as I need speed, or PV, or more archery talents, or long stride, etc.
True
If I am playing a merchant, I might decide TH will be usefull, as I can get a teensy bit more leverage out of the one good thing merchants are actually good at (selling stuff obviously), in which case I would hope to get it by PC level 6 or 9.
I
If I am playing a dark elven merchant, I might decide I can't be bothered to sell stuff and will just steal what I need from shops, and will definitely want speed and archery talents as early as possible, no way can I afford t o waste two talents.
Think
If I am playing average PCs with no clear strategy other than develop character in variety of ways as I proceed through the game, then I probably will take TH, just for the hell of it.
TH
Unfortunately, this post lacks the Troll and -Greyshades intrinsics, so if we have to take sides and make sweeping generalisations in order to keep the excellent and highly entertaining thread alive, then I too am on gut and Soirana's side.
SUCKS
TH sucks :p.

[gut]

Let's have a 'you HAVE to choose sides now' poll.
Remember, it's just like a regular election, you don't
have to like or agree with either side... but you have
to chose one now : )

TH sucks:
gut
vogonpoet
Soirana
Moloch
Maul
Ars
Epythic
Evil Kneivel


TH is the greatest thing since sliced bread:
Silfir
Grey
Elone
Per_Killer
sgeos
F50
Ars
Epythic
mike

If I leave anyone out, or if you feel I've put you on
the wrong side, let me know and I'll switch you.
Specifically, I can't seem to decide on which side to
place Ars, F50, and a few others.

[meh]

IMO, sliced bread is one of the most overrated things ever. The slices are often too thin for my liking.

[gut]

I'm putting you on my side.
Joking : )

[Molach]

I take it that next challenge will be a team-match between the two sides? One side HAS to select TH, other CANNOT. And we see who are the most successful

[F50]

I like that Idea Molach.



However, I am playing a monk without TH...I stairhopped. I have never had trouble finding ?uncursing and ?oI before. Even if I do I normally scum the big room for herbs and monster drops (assuming my kitty karma is toast or I have invisibillity). Mass monster murder is very effective with TH.

I really like my low-level items...[snip]...I am surprised to find how much I *do* rely on TH.

So I'm on the TH side. I tried without TH, and decided TH was for me.

I will always have TH by lvl 9 now, but probably not before, since both sides seem to agree its not too useful early-game.

[sgeos]

I will always have TH by lvl 9 now, but probably not before, since both sides seem to agree its not too useful early-game.
TH is only useful if monsters are killed. One could also argue that it is more useful if you fight higher danger level monsters. You gain levels fast enough up to level 9 that not having it shouldn't have much of an effect.

[Evil Knievel]

Haha, I can pick now?

Okay... I used to use TH somewhat regularly, if didn't forget to take it at some points (sometimes difficult to keep track of the talents, since you can't look them up at the select-new-talent-screen).

So, I'd like to go without TH from now. That's like back then, when I decided to give my vote to the green party. An adeological thing..

[Grey]

I like the idea of a team competition :) It's utterly unscientific and absurb, but it'll help heat up the debate more! :D

[Ars]

I like to use TH (more risk, less scumming - dying is fun, scumming is boring), but would not recommend it to a less experienced player. So I don't really know what "side" I'm on, somebody tell me?

[vogonpoet]

The TH sucks side for sure Ars!

Welcome

/OnE oF uS!

[F50]

While I really think you shouldn't be on the "TH sucks" side because you use TH (and therefore most certainly do not think it sucks), for the sake of the competition, the TH sucks team needs more players. ;)

So when does the competition start and what are the rules?

[sgeos]

Why don't I do something crazy like claim that Saint is a fantastic talent?

[Epythic]

This is a stupid poll.

TH sucks absolutely, but most of the other talents are even worse, so relatively to the other talents, TH rocks. Am I for or against TH now?

Put me in the third team... oh wait :(

Note that I think bread, sliced or not, is pretty much overrated. I love pizza.

EDIT: I was thinking about the team contest thing, when suddenly a very strange thought came to my mind:

"I wonder if there are any ADOM clans?"

[gut]

Updated, we now stand at 8 and 8.
Ars and Epythic are, um... playing for both teams ; )

Suggested rules for the game:
Get the AMW.

[Epythic]

Updated, we now stand at 8 and 8.
Ars and Epythic are, um... playing for both teams ; )
Good idea, why not? :)


Suggested rules for the game:
Get the AMW.

Wouldnt that be a bit easy?

EDIT:

The following is not neccessarily intended for *this* contest, but I find it an interesting idea.

- Game is played in two teams. Each team plays their "own" PC, with a maximum of X (e.g. 2000) turns per player and round. But after every players turn, a player from the *other* team must do exactly Y (e.g. 1, 2, 10) turn(s), in which they can try to screw the PC as much as possible (e.g. destroy valuable items, lower HP, eat poison or something -- as long as they can do it in Y turns).
- One might want to combine this with another ruleset, such as the weakest link ruleset.

What do you think about that?

[Ars]

Get AMW, or the fire orb? And what races/classes should be used? Because that will probably affect survival much more than any talent choice.

And I can make a PC for both teams, now that's almost scientific to compare those games!

Oh and Epythics idea can be good at some competition, but not at this one - doesn't really help to prov e thepoint about TH does it?

[mike]

I'm on the sliced bread side.

[Evil Knievel]

doesn't really help to prov e thepoint about TH does it

prove ????????

[Grey]

Note that I think bread, sliced or not, is pretty much overrated. I love pizza.


Pizza dough is bread, you foolish mortal! However everyone knows the most important part of a pizza is the sauce...

[gut]

> I'm on the sliced bread side.

Updated.

> prove ????????

The contest rules shoud be structured to help show
the difference between TH and non-TH talent lines.

> Get AMW, or the fire orb?

Fire orb would be fine with me. I think the PC we
chose should not be a powerhouse like an orc barb,
they could survive nearly anything. No human farmers
either though, so how about something in between.
Assasin, bard, healer, paladin, even archer. I think we
should definitely all play from the same save file.
Straddle-poles just play the same PC twice is all : )

[Epythic]

The contest rules shoud be structured to help show
the difference between TH and non-TH talent lines.

Fire orb would be fine with me.
Problem is, given enough time both teams can get the orb quite easily. So maybe the goal should be to get it in less turns than the other team?
If TH was really useful, the TH team should - in the same time - get more/better items.

A problem here is that ID scumming doesn't really take lots of time, so we might forbid entering the ID, and also forbid all other scumming method.


Assasin, bard, healer, paladin, even archer. I think we
should definitely all play from the same save file.
Me likes archers. In that case, I'd probably go to the non-TH team, because archers have lots of useful talents. Hmm, on the other hand, archers constantly lack arrows, so TH might still be useful. Mhh...

Still, usefulness of TH depends on race, class and even starsign (raven-borns dont need speed talents; which is, by the way, why I mostly play raven-borns. If they don't need speed talents, they can use up the talents for other things - for example TH).

[Grey]

I think you're taking the idea a bit too seriously, gut. There's no way such a game is going to actually prove anything. I suggest we make it a simple random character contest, with the only restriction being no deliberate scumming for items (no ID stair-hopping, no gremlin bombs). Maybe some simple points system like 5 points for every team member that reaches the tower, 10 for every victory, and 15 for each ultra. Any possible showing off of which talents are best will most likely be in the analysis of peoples death (ie. cruel and malicious taunting).

[Ars]

I think we
should definitely all play from the same save file.
Straddle-poles just play the same PC twice is all : )

But you can't have the same PC with and without alert.

And I don't think a speed competition is a good idea, with single PCs that is just gambling. Just play the game and analize afterwards. Maybe also have a point system like Grey said, though "reaching the tower" sounds quite easy...

A set r/c combo for everyone would be my suggestion, maybe a paladin or healer for their all-roundedness, and they can benefit from all items (ie. read books, use weapons & armor).

And of course everyone who've been assigned to the "sides" don't have to participate, if they don't feel like it - uneven teams does not matter.

[Evil Knievel]

I am ok with both of these.. random or not... (But each one uf us should play a whole char... for more statistical truth, right?)

Possility about minimizing the turns used: (but only if you'd like to have it really complicated)

If a player gets the orb, he gets

(one + number_of_turns_of_fastest_(winning)_player/number_of_his_own_turns) points

Since the fastest player is only to be determined afterwards, point distribution could only be made after the whole thing. The second term could also be down- or upscaled by a number you select. Call it lambda, then:

Player A wins the fire orb in 25000 turns, but gut got it in 10000, Player A will receive
1 + lambda*1/2.5 points, which is for

lambda = 0.5 -> 1.2 while gut gets 1.5
lambda = 1 -> 1.4 while gut gets 2
lambda = 2 -> 1.8 while gut gets 3

If you also like to honour a lower number of kills, then introduce another summand:

number_of_winning_player_with_minimun_kills/number_of_your_kills

in a similar fashion.

[Grey]

Evil Knievil... please tell me you're joking? I don't think we should have points at all (they're too meaningless), but if we do have anything it should be extremely simple and not be based on any particular playstyle.

And why would we want fast games? It doesn't prove anything, is biased towards certain playstyles and classes, and more importantly is biased against TH (less kills = less effect from the talent).

Ars: I meant toppling the tower, not reaching the tower. Or, more specifically, killing the ACW.

[Evil Knievel]

Grey, you are right, it is not so very serious... and it will not prove anything. What I am telling is not really to favour particular playstyles, as to honour a certain kind of people, but to encourage people to go for certain playstyles... the 'why' is discussable, since as you said, it proves nothing and is meaningless... see law of big numbers...

Only thing is maybe a little change in what we do by different directives can lead to some variety constrasting normal play.

But you are right, forget about it.

[Ars]

Ars: I meant toppling the tower, not reaching the tower. Or, more specifically, killing the ACW.

Yes yes, I figured that out... Just had to point it out nevertheless.

[vogonpoet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Grey
I think you're taking the idea a bit too seriously, gut.


Ha! Ha ha. Bwah ha ha ha ha ha aahhhhaa haaaaaaaaaa

/*chokes*

[F50]

I agree with Grey. Team random character contest with post-game analysis.

[Silfir]

There is only one scoring method: The side with more referrels to the other side as "n00b faggots" claims the title.

[Ars]

I agree with Grey. Team random character contest with post-game analysis.

But random PCs would mean that it'd be more about analizing the race/class combos, and talents would mostly just fade to the background. If more than 1 combination is wanted, then pick several and have both sides have the same r/cs.

[Epythic]

And why would we want fast games? It doesn't prove anything, is biased towards certain playstyles and classes, and more importantly is biased against TH (less kills = less effect from the talent).

Huh? No, wrong, I think. Shorter games means the no-TH team will have a much harder time finding decent items (assuming TH is really useful). If you have longer games that just means both teams are more likely to max out items, which nullifies the TH-advantage of finding more (-> also more of the good ones) items in less time.

I agree that post-game analysis is really needed.

I don't think a random-character game is a good idea. In that, I agree with Ars.
I think archers are cool, and fair for both teams:

TH: gets more items. Archers really need arrows. (EDIT: especially in speed-games...)
Non-TH: gets the archer talents earlier. Very useful.

And I mean, this is what the TH/no-TH decision is all about, right?

Silfir, I still have no idea in which team I'll play, but let me tell you that the other team consists solely of n00b faggots. Hah, now I've got a headstart*.

* = Is that the correct word?

[gut]

It doesn't have to be scientific to have gloating rights.
If my orc barbarian with +9 speed outlives your gray
elven thief with TH, where's the glory in that? I hate
point systems. I find it amusing that the only players
that are making the 'no scum' suggestion are the TH
lovers : ) Could it be that they begin to see the futility
of a talent that can be replaced with 10 minutes of
grinding?

: )

I'm loving this.

[F50]

scumming is fine IMO. It is something the TH people will love to talk about int post game analysis though.

Besides, archers can get arrows easily enough (arrow traps). Wizards would be a better choice (though I kinda suck at wizards) because of extra book-finds and such. However, I also don't see why we should choose archers over rangers or or paladins or almost any other class, which is why I suggested random. Yeah sure, someone can get a trollish elementalist or grey elven merchant or a bard, but I think this is more about recording the events in a number of games in a somewhat neutral manner side by side.

As for the no-scumming suggestion, it was only suggested so that the benefits of TH can be more clearly seen as items are harder to manufacture that way (and we can see when the non-TH people are out of items). However, I think that is somewhat unfair. I *would* like to hear about any scumming methods used in the post-game-summary.

[Ars]

Speed is something you can analyze and brag on afterwards - but if you put that as the nbr. 1 goal, it's not about talents anymore then, when the environment is so different to a normal game. Ok normal game isn't mainly about talents either.

But in a speedgame, usefulness of TH depends mostly on the class (=> early-game strategy) used. If you get your items killing monsters, TH can pay off, if you use stairhopping, TH sucks really hard. But in a non-speedrun game, you can pick your strategy more freely and not just go by the most strictly efficient option.

And a non-scummy speedrun is not an option either really.

[Grey]

Well we should probably try and get something decided then. Assuming we have 8 or 9 participants on each team I propose the following:

1. 8 or 9 random r/c combinations are initially chosen as the set of challenge chars to play. Each person in the group is assigned one of the combinations (with no duplicates) and must generate that char when they play. This way we have random chars, but each team is playing the same set of random characters.

2. Play as you like, giving reports on your progress and death. If you scum in any major way then say so. TH-lovers must get TH by level 15.

3. Results tallied by those who beat the tower, those who win, and those who get ultras. Just tallies, not points, and individual players may wish to make their own brag points about their game. Deaths will be analysed in excrutiating detail.

4. Debate furiously how the results clearly show that you were right all along and that the other group have been thoroughly debunked - what fools they were for ever having a different opinion!

If everyone's in reasonable agreement then we can try and get this started by Friday.

[Elone]

I agree with #4.

[vogonpoet]

Sounds good Grey.

Alternatively:

1, each person plays through every R/C combination, and their combined scores added to their teams combined scores.

2, individual players will wish to make their own brag points about their game. Deaths will be analysed in excruciating detail.

3, debate furiously how the results clearly show that you were right all along and that the other group have been thoroughly debunked - what fools they were for ever having a different opinion.

4, we die of old age or Thomas releases Jade.

[Elone]

I agree with #4. Again. =P

[gut]

I'm fine with all Grey's suggestions, but we may want to
cheat a little on the randomness of the PC's. I remember
our random PC challenges always having horrible mortality
rates. Maybe mask thieves, farmers, mindcrafters, necros,
and merchants? Trolls?

[Ars]

I'm not sure about that, because I feel that weeak PC need their talents more than others to survive. Trolls on the other hand might benefit more from TH, due to them usually killing more than others to get that xp.

[vogonpoet]

I'm not sure about that, because I feel that weeak PC need their talents more than others to survive. Trolls on the other hand might benefit more from TH, due to them usually killing more than others to get that xp.

Agreed. No masks, nice point about the trolls.

[F50]

I agree to Grey's ruleset. Let us begin soon.

Wait a minute, this thread has grown to 19 pages using the default number of posts/page. Wow. I suggest we use a separate thread to post the TH competition rules and player stories. Then they can be quoted and discussed in this thread.

[Silfir]

I agree to Grey's ruleset. Let us begin soon.

Wait a minute, this thread has grown to 19 pages using the default number of posts/page. Wow. I suggest we use a separate thread to post the TH competition rules and player stories. Then they can be quoted and discussed in this thread.

That's standard procedure for any challenge anyway. Maybe an extra Discussion thread might be prudent.

I plan on playing my game on the server yet again. Hopefully this one won't be as embarassing.

[gut]

I'll get a gnomish bard, born in the month of the
candle, with a mana stat of 20. I will chose 'quick',
'very quick', 'greased lightning', 'hardy', 'tough skin',
and 'iron skin' as my starting talents. Then I will die
to a stone block trap on VD1 without ever killing a
monster.

[Epythic]

I'll get a gnomish bard, born in the month of the
candle, with a mana stat of 20. I will chose 'quick',
'very quick', 'greased lightning', 'hardy', 'tough skin',
and 'iron skin' as my starting talents. Then I will die
to a stone block trap on VD1 without ever killing a
monster.

Grey would like that :D

EDIT: Congratulations, gut, you just made your 1001'th post ;)

[Grey]

I'll get a gnomish bard, born in the month of the
candle, with a mana stat of 20. I will chose 'quick',
'very quick', 'greased lightning', 'hardy', 'tough skin',
and 'iron skin' as my starting talents. Then I will die
to a stone block trap on VD1 without ever killing a
monster.

I don't understand why any bard would choose Greased Lightning over SLBs :P

Anyway, we'll obviously need 3 new threads as I see it - one for the pro-TH reports, one for the anti-TH reports, and one for the resultant flamewar. Only problem is what to call it... How does 'Talent Wars' sound to everyone?

[Silfir]

"Treasure Hunter - The Ultimate Showdown"

[Grey]

Nicely dramatic, but a bit too long for a title when you have to factor in full thread titles like "Treasure Hunter: The Ultimate Showdown - TH-supporters characters".

[vogonpoet]

Could have gone with the acronym THUS for the thread titles...

I shall hope for a PC I can justify taking the missile weapon master line with, just to underline that not only is TH a waste of 3 talents, it is also a complete waste of 2 talents, you n00b faggots you.

/thxs Silfir for that particular piece of debating genius, love it.

[gut]

Even if I get a mindcrafter, I'm taking 'strong legs'.
That way when I outlive some pathetic 'treasure
hunter' worshipper I can claim (with a single shred
of credibility) that 'treasure hunter' is inferior to all
other talents in the game.

[Grey]

gut, I'll only accept that argument if you choose the Skilled talent with your attempt ;)

[gut]

Hey everybody, this thread is about to drop off the
first page again! YAAAY! Oh, wait a second...

[Elone]

Well done, Gut.

[Adominator]

I really like the idea of a contest, but I am concerned that the results may be skewed, so here is my proposal:
I think the only way to make the test fair and scientific is to make the test game run for a set number of turns. Something pretty short, just enough time to leisurely make your way to the arena. This way the test will isolate the impact of the talents before other factors begin to dominate.

At that point, the winner is determined by whoever can write the best short story starring their character during his/her trials and tribulations as a gladiator. A winning story would have to showcase an unhealthy amount of equipment description and said equipment would have to be instrumental in at least 4 plot mechanics.

[vogonpoet]

Err, we already ran this contest.

The results clearly show that TH is a useless talent - a number of the TH rocks team died whilst trying to steal from the mommy dragon, so clearly TH didn't help them. Its just a mental crutch, a placebo talent.

[BurnedToast]

I thought the TH rocks team won? At least according to the discussion page they have more fire orbs, more normal victories and more ultras.

that seems like victory to me.

[Covenant]

Plus I died because my bloody game crashed on D:50 right before I attempted an ultra (which I'm pretty certain I would have succeeded on). Grr.
(Oh - the point of that being that I was in the THSucks team, so they have (kinda) an extra victory than listed).

[Necropassion]

You should save scum. I stopped doing it for a while and utterly regret it. The amount of potential winners that have been lost to that stupid error message - it's so incredibly frustrating.

[Silfir]

I assume you're talking about making backups in case of crashing. That's not save-scumming :)

[Necropassion]

It's not? That's good news, as I don't have to consider myself a cheater anymore then!

[Silfir]

As long as you reload ONLY IF YOU CRASHED you're in the clear. Dying is part of the game, power outages are not.

[Necropassion]

I'd never reload a dead character - let the dead rest in peace, I say.

EDIT: Just realized that might have come off as a bit strange as it is perhaps not that compatible with my user-name.
Oh well.

[Molach]

as it is perhaps not that compatible with my user-name
Hahah. Good one.

I learned this song in boot camp in my short but rewarding service in the armed forces:
(There is a melody to it too, but don't know how to input notes here)

My name is Jack
I'm a necrophiliac.
I f*** dead women,
and fill them up with s****.

I get a-hard
when I cross the graveyard.
It seem obscene
but I like them green.

I get frustrated
when the bodies are cremated.
Yes, bury them you must,
cuz you can't f*** dust

Necropassion - well it could mean a passion for necromancer-class I guess.

Anyway, treasure hunter does indeed suck.

When I played good 'ole Diablo II, I was strapping on +% magic find whenever I could, never mind the resistances. And in ADOM I'm a raging carryholic, have to carry everything & the kitchen sink Justin Case I should need it. I need my carryhol. Despite this, after my rookie-have-to-take-treasure-hunter-because-treasure-is-good-and-I-sure-want-a-lot-of-it days, I've made a complete recovery, and nothing will ever make me select that evil "alert" talent at level 1 ever again.

Let treasure hunter restare in pacem. V.D.

[Necropassion]

Well, judging from that song I'd say your experience in the army must have been VERY rewarding - I love that kind of humour (I'm not an evil person, I'm just, you know, morbid - in an innocent way).

Actually the name has just sort of tagged along from the (need I add black metal?) band days, but I've lately been thinking I can motivate it by claiming it to be a celebration to Nonnak, as he is really just a misunderstood nice guy.

More on topic: has this treasure hunter debate ever been settled? I myself have yet to choose sides, and find it pretty hard...

[Silfir]

Yes it has - the only way it can ever be resolved, by duking it out over a forum-wide team competition and a lot of insults and hurling of "n00b fagg0ts" at the other guys. TH rocks won, of course, due to not being n00b fagg0ts.

If your goal is maximized chances for early game survival go for a few extra HP and Tough Skin or something. And take Iron Skin too while you're at it. Unless if you're one of the dozens of r/c combinations that starts with Toughness below 15, then oops I guess you only have that one PV point haven't you oh well. But I'm sure it does much, much more for early game survival than that mithril longsword the goblin you killed on VD:4 just dropped.

And if you're a gray elven wizard? Oops, forget about even getting hardy. 8 Toughness is lucky. 10 Toughness is the upper end of the spectrum. Better take Long Stride to get better at running away.

[Necropassion]

I almost always get TH, but sometimes if I feel the character is promising and I really don't want him/her to die I'll choose Long Stride, Healthy, Quick or Scout. Treasure Hunter or no Treasure Hunter - it much comes down to different playing styles, no?

I want to minimize the amount of scumming for decent equipment with some characters, and then I think TH is teh awesome, but a character who will have a nice mid-late game due class powers (e.g. a Monk), but may not be so well off early on due to lackluster stats might benefit alot from for example Long Stride.

[Molach]

but sometimes if I feel the character is promising and I really don't want him/her to die I'll choose [Not TH]...
-now this sums it up. It you want to live, say no to TH.

Well, necromancerlover, just think of all the great item-generators which TH does not help in any way:
Items on ground
Pre/post/crownings
Items in shop (including casino shop)
Items from pickpocketing
Items dug up from graves
Guaranteed artifacts
Dragons

Now, I trust the above sources to supply my adventuring needs. More items from monster kills sounds good, but you can always just kill some more. Killing more even gives exp, which is good. I do care about my characters, I want them to have the best possible chance of survival. Alert+miser+TH does nothing...compare to +6 speed, 3HP and 2PV, an Heir item, +6DV...well just about anything.

Just kill more. Say no to TH.

You will be assimilated.

Oh, Herr Sirfir and mr. Grey: Next time we have a weakest link thing...you need to separate both server/non-server AS WELL AS TH/non-TH. I can't really work with people who think that a ironman-type char would benefit greatly from 2 1/2 worthless talents...

By the way, what would be the correct term for a person who loves necromancers? Necrophiliac is taken...guess it's gotta be Necromancephiliac.

[Silfir]

And with TH, you can kill even more monsters and get even more loot from it. You'll always have more loot. The vain and fruitless efforts of the non-TH suckers will never equal that gap, however much they try - oh, and how they try, in their futile petty insufficience... And then they die to emperor liches while gravedigging for their precious items. Such is the fate of the misguided.

[Grey]

Now, I trust the above sources to supply my adventuring needs. More items from monster kills sounds good, but you can always just kill some more.

Hurrah, I can spend ages scumming to make up the difference - what joy ADOM does bring! Some of us, y'know, just like to have fun.

The extra PV etc can be nice, but isn't always available or needed, and in many cases can still be taken if you take Alert at level 1 and Miser/TH at levels 9/12. The *only* talent that might make a regular big difference to survival between levels 1 and 3 is Long Stride, so there's rarely any need to choose something other than Alert at level 1 purely for survival reason (exception maybe being if you want a particular Heir gift). Remember that everyone survived just fine before talents - obviously those extra points in speed or defense were really not so necessary.

[Baranor]

I didn't. I always died before level 3 before the talents came out.

It was like insta-death.

Oh wait, no, I was still around when you could dig up infinite Nonnaks. Ha!

Seriously. I can't actually tell the different between my Treasure Hunter and Non-Treasure Hunter Characters. That 12.5% or whatever it is is not significant enough for me to pick it. Granted like Grey said, early talents make little difference as to whether a character lives or dies. I can't think of a talent that you have to pick at the beginning of a the game that garners you super talents later on.

[BurnedToast]

I don't know, I've noticed a significant increase in the quality and amount of treasure with TH, vs not having it. I usually end up with more spellbooks and nicer items (like the adamantine tower shield I found in a lesser vault before dwarftown last game) with TH, enough that I feel it's worth getting. My non-TH chars never seem to find anything nice and always seem to be running low on potions and scrolls and such. I almost always pick alert at lvl 1 these days.

Then again I'm fully willing to admit it might just be confirmation bias.

[Conundrum]

Psh, that's not an argument, since TH doesn't increase the quality of items you find. I don't (I mean, ever) pick TH, and here are what some of my characters have found:

Eternium 2H Sword (+18, 6d5+18) [-1, +0] at level 1, in the SMC.
Staff of Smiting (+4, 1d37+2) on PC2.
Pickpocketed Preserver in a lesser vault before Dwarftown.
Tower Adamantium Shield (-2) [+11, +2] in a vault before Dwarftown.

And that's just off the top of my head...

[BurnedToast]

Maybe not directly, but if it increases the chances of items it increases the chances of GOOD items too. Double the total items (or whatever TH is, probably much less then double) means double the chances to get something great.

FWIW SMC always (or nearly always) has one really nice item in it like eternium 2her or awesome ego weapons so that hardly counts in either case.

Like I said it might just be confirmation bias, but what else are you gonna pick really? the PV line is nice and... long stride... good learner if you want to abuse that (limited testing seems to me like the bug never 'wears off'). Speed line is OK. Everything else is sort of ho-hum so you're not really giving anything major up.

[Molach]

...continuing my list:
Water dragon cave
Vaults (normal vaults - every creature killed drops something, TH has no effect. And greater vault artifacts are on floor)

I wasn't trying to win the debate, mind you, just convert the "new guy" necropassion to the nonTH elite player's gang. But okay, since the debate is up...

Now I say "you can always kill more", and then you say "we don't wanna scum and use our precious time". A little parabole here. I downloaded the "league of light"-dark elf barbarian character. In the league, he got the "great learner" at level three. He ended round two with low HPs and 2973 exps. Now in MY cloned game, I of course gave him "tough skin" talent at level three. Now, after MY round two, you would expect him to have full HP, and 40% less exp (actually 29% less, but you get the point)? Well, he ended with full HP and close to 8000 exps. Because that non-useless talent allowed him to keep fighting and killing in stead of running and healing, and as a result he got more of everything.


the PV line is nice and... long stride... good learner if you want to abuse that (limited testing seems to me like the bug never 'wears off'). Speed line is OK.

Now just add the DV talents (both natural and the shield ones) and we're set. Oh wait, magical talents for some types of chars. Yes. And mabye porter talents. Sure. If you get one starting talent, you are level 21 before you are finished with just the longstridespeedPVs. By then talents aren't hugely important anyway.

4 lies about TH:
"Okay, bone golem killed, now let me pick up my...Bah. No guantlets, guess I should have taken TH talent to be sure to get them"
"Greater vault of giants! Yay. No wait, the artifacts are all shit, should have taken treasure hunter to improve their quality level"
"Potions of strength! Too bad, with TH it would surely have been upgraded to PoGA."
"Let's dig up this grave...emperor lich! And all useless items. I'm sure a real treasure hunter would have managed to loot without waking that monster, and found better items too."

[Necropassion]

Well both parts make valid points here! I guess the only right thing for me to do is stop going for TH for a while and see if I notice any difference. Except for Archers as it pains me less to choose 'alert' at level 1 with them.

So TH only increases drops from ordinary monsters?

EDIT: To Molach: I don't know what the correct term would be... I think you probably came up with the best alternative. Otherwise; NecRomantic?

[Grey]

Now I say "you can always kill more", and then you say "we don't wanna scum and use our precious time". A little parabole here. I downloaded the "league of light"-dark elf barbarian character. In the league, he got the "great learner" at level three. He ended round two with low HPs and 2973 exps. Now in MY cloned game, I of course gave him "tough skin" talent at level three. Now, after MY round two, you would expect him to have full HP, and 40% less exp (actually 29% less, but you get the point)? Well, he ended with full HP and close to 8000 exps. Because that non-useless talent allowed him to keep fighting and killing in stead of running and healing, and as a result he got more of everything.


Or maybe because you were playing him properly, and not dual-wielding and ignoring missiles :(

[Krogg]

My level 24 wizard just found an uncursed eternium two-handed sword of devastation (+18 10d5 +24) [-1, 0] on DH2! It simply HAS to be because I took TH! I would add though that this character has also found 3 sets of bone bracers, an orchish spear of penetration, a poisonous mithril simitar, seven league boots, and countless spellbooks. Now if I can just keep from doing something really stupid.

[Maul]

My level 24 wizard just found an uncursed eternium two-handed sword of devastation (+18 10d5 +24) [-1, 0] on DH2! It simply HAS to be because I took TH! I would add though that this character has also found 3 sets of bone bracers, an orchish spear of penetration, a poisonous mithril simitar, seven league boots, and countless spellbooks. Now if I can just keep from doing something really stupid.

Well, once again it must be stressed that TH DOES NOT IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF ITEMS. Oh well, better be happy while you still are - by the time you posted here, your character is probably already dead. Lucky ghul kept you perma-paralyzed, off-screen lightning lizard, you name it...:p

[JellySlayer]

Hurrah, I can spend ages scumming to make up the difference - what joy ADOM does bring! Some of us, y'know, just like to have fun.

The extra PV etc can be nice, but isn't always available or needed, and in many cases can still be taken if you take Alert at level 1 and Miser/TH at levels 9/12. The *only* talent that might make a regular big difference to survival between levels 1 and 3 is Long Stride, so there's rarely any need to choose something other than Alert at level 1 purely for survival reason (exception maybe being if you want a particular Heir gift). Remember that everyone survived just fine before talents - obviously those extra points in speed or defense were really not so necessary.

To be fair Grey, TH didn't exist at that point either, so obviously those extra items aren't really so necessary either.

Now, at risk of getting too much into this debate again, I really think there is a bit of a middle ground here. There are some classes that have an extremely hard time starting off--getting the first 10-20 kills, I mean--and need every advantage that they can get. A mindcrafter who doesn't have enough PP to cast confusion blast to start with is going to have a lot of problems and is probably better off with the PP line or something similar. A merchant with poor starting gear that needs to rely on energy-intensive coin throwing is probably going to need a bit of help with missiles or PV. Thieves and bards have excellent heir gifts that give them a huge early-game advantage that exceeds what TH is likely to give. Monks start with terrible starting gear and can't true berserk, and thus often need to be played very cautiously for a little while. If you have a character that starts with some decent combat spells, missile weapons, or reasonable PV/To that will help them get off the ground, then you have a bit more flexibility with your talent choices, and the better your very early survival prospects, the better TH looks since it make it more likely that you'll get those first few holy waters, identify scrolls, etc that will allow you to progress more safely as things go on.

[BurnedToast]

Well, once again it must be stressed that TH DOES NOT IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF ITEMS. Oh well, better be happy while you still are - by the time you posted here, your character is probably already dead. Lucky ghul kept you perma-paralyzed, off-screen lightning lizard, you name it...:p

Once again it must be stressed that TH increases the chances of getting quality items.

No, it won't turn the potion of poison into a PoGA, but it will give you more chances of the RNG giving you a PoGA. Over time and thousands of monster kills, it adds up and you will end up with quite a nice extra stash of useful items that the non-TH player would not have (or would have, but only because they spent a few hours mindlessly scumming for them).

Are they strictly necessary? No, of course not. Then again, people have won with no equipment at all - why don't you do that every time?

[Soirana]

not all vault mobs drop items. if i understand correctly they only had better drop ratio [and not even 50%]...

I tend to believe TH is amde for guys who need to make all *checks* - ring of ice for Tower, wand of paralyzation for archmage... Well, if you have no crativity how to use stuff, you can solve your problem this way... But clearly there is no reason to claim it is better.

As excesive talents goes... I usually have few to spare arroundlv40, but i am usually either collecting last ultra stuff or heading downwards to lose gate when...

[Al-Khwarizmi]

In practice, of course Treasure Hunter increases the quality of items you get.

Suppose that a non-TH char gets

20 utter crap items
10 bad items
10 mediocre items
10 good items
10 very good items

Then, a TH char will get
40 utter crap items
20 bad items
20 mediocre items
20 good items
20 very good items

So if the character has carrying capacity to take 40 items with him, the non-TH char will carry quite a lot of useless items, while the TH char will only carry good and very good items.

For me, TH is a must. There are other talents that can improve early-game survivability? Yeah, probably. So what? If a char dies in the early game, I just reroll. It's natural selection, an efficient way of selecting good chars.

I very much prefer to spend my time on having a fraction of my characters killed in the SMC or UD in the early game (which is lots of fun, because you're actually fighting to try to survive, and you have to use your resources and learn things) than to spend it on scumming for items in the mid game (boooooooring).

[Maul]

In that case, we might as well select 'Strong Legs' and 'Good Looks' with every character, since if it survives the early game, it will be able to survive the mid- and endgame as well, TH or no TH, Melee/Missile WM or none, Mithril/Steel Skin or none.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

In that case, we might as well select 'Strong Legs' and 'Good Looks' with every character, since if it survives the early game, it will be able to survive the mid- and endgame as well, TH or no TH, Melee/Missile WM or none, Mithril/Steel Skin or none.

But you need lots of items to survive the mid/endgame. Fire resistance for the tower, AoLS for Kelly, lots of spellbooks if you're a wizard, etc. It's much easier to get them with TH.

[Soirana]

But you need lots of items to survive the mid/endgame. Fire resistance for the tower, AoLS for Kelly, lots of spellbooks if you're a wizard, etc. It's much easier to get them with TH.

Fire resist -- elemnatal gantlets and High King ring is guaranteed. Fire beteles do not drop more corpses with TH on... Where is your need to find anything?
Dependingly on class you might get fireproof blanket from dwarven elder. Others get high metal gear a sproposal to it without carried stuff....

Khelly?.. You certainly do not need to save him in order to survive. Nice, but necessary. Stop checking that box and your games will be easier.

Spellboks - what is your nonwizzard char percentage? Well, for wiizy mor elees needed are
Teleport - can be substituted by guarantteed wand
Invis - potions are plenty even without TH if you bless them in groups of four...
Stun - can be susbstitueted by wand or cursed invis pots.
Attack spell you start with one or two. If you won't bolt each rat and have any luck these+regular drops might be enough up to library...

No why you said you needed waste three talents for loaf of bread and few gold pievces in leather cap?

[Conundrum]

Suppose that a non-TH char gets

20 utter crap items
10 bad items
10 mediocre items
10 good items
10 very good items

Then, a TH char will get
40 utter crap items
20 bad items
20 mediocre items
20 good items
20 very good items

That hugely inflates the apparent value of TH.

My understanding would be more like, the TH char would get

22 utter crap items
11 bad items
11 mediocre items
11 good items
11 very good items.

[Soirana]

clearly ratio of non dropped ites/dropped depends on playstyle...

For one Treassure hunters advertise [bright diving and fair batles wiythout scumming] you won't get 4K gremlins, won't let each weresomething summon and won't lock some breeders between herbs and dwarftown, so they could bread while you pass by just to be killed by your magic missiles...

For this playstyle ratio should be bigger quite clearly. Surprisingly these brainwashed persons belive in just opposite....

[BurnedToast]

That hugely inflates the apparent value of TH.

My understanding would be more like, the TH char would get

22 utter crap items
11 bad items
11 mediocre items
11 good items
11 very good items.

It's my understanding that tests showed TH giving something like 73% more items off starting level monsters. So, just counting monsters kills (at least for me that's where most items from from) they get nearly double items meaning Al-Khwarizmi is essentially correct, though his numbers are slightly off.

How it effects things like dragons I don't know - Some said it does not effect them at all but I don't know of any actual tests that have been done. Furthermore I don't think anyone has ever tested higher level monsters either.

[JellySlayer]

For me, TH is a must. There are other talents that can improve early-game survivability? Yeah, probably. So what? If a char dies in the early game, I just reroll. It's natural selection, an efficient way of selecting good chars.

Why not just save-scum then? The effect is the same, except it saves you the time of not having to start from scratch--you're starting the same character from an earlier point and hoping for a different outcome.


I very much prefer to spend my time on having a fraction of my characters killed in the SMC or UD in the early game (which is lots of fun, because you're actually fighting to try to survive, and you have to use your resources and learn things) than to spend it on scumming for items in the mid game (boooooooring).

You don't need to scum for items with a non-TH character any more than you need to with a TH character. If you need an AoLS, most characters that I've played need to get a wish from a pool, or have to scum for items anyway, TH or not. Scumming for items just isn't necessary--everything you absolutely need is either guarenteed (fire resist, wand of cold, a couple of healing pots--even most spellbooks if you use the library), or common enough that scumming isn't required because regular play will provide it. Or so outrageously rare as a regular drop, that you probably need to pursue other means like wish-hunting to get it.

[Silfir]

People are taking this debate seriously again? What the boop?

[gut]

This thread has 7,638 views and 12 pages of posts as of 06-01-09.
I'll check back in ten years out of curiosity, and it'll be 107,638
views and 120 pages of posts, still saying the same things...

...and I'll still chime in : )

[Grey]

And you'll still be wrong ;)

[vogonpoet]

I still can't believe that players of the caliber of Silfir and Grey are pimping for the TH talent. I mean, WTF?

[Grey]

I'm the only one here that has done thorough statistical testing on the effects of Treasure Hunter, so I believe that only my opinion matters.

It's still a silly debate of course. May as well argue about the merits of pickpocketing - obviously not needed, and only gives a small number of extra items overall, but obviously it does give extra useful stuff. Personally I tend to have huge kill counts in a non-speedrun game, so TH seems quite sensible to choose by level 12 at the latest, especially when my characters end up using a fusion of melee, missiles and magic (so they can make the best of every item they find).

[Baranor]

Statistically, there is an advantage to TH in terms of monsters dropping items. But I believe the debate is to whether the percentage increase in drops is worth the value lost by not choosing the speed talents or some other talents like Heir and such.

[Soirana]

I'm the only one here that has done thorough statistical testing on the effects of Treasure Hunter, so I believe that only my opinion matters.
TH elitism strikes again.

[Silfir]

I still can't believe that players of the caliber of Silfir and Grey are pimping for the TH talent. I mean, WTF?

I have a caliber?

You can hardly call it pimping. At this point I get Treasure Hunter for two reasons:

a) Out of spite.
b) Because it's awesome and only n00b faggots don't get it.

[vogonpoet]

LOL :)

You're 7.62x39mm dude.

/or something :-/

[Dorten]

Funny discussion.

I see it his way: wizard? TH rules. monk? TH sucks. anyone else? TH is not bad.

That's my opinion.

[Soirana]

I did more statistic work so Darren can't further on say he is only having numbers for this:
http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Treasure_Hunter

In short mob specific drops - in particular short bows for kobolds - do not seem being affected by TH anyway. Which of course means it sucks deeper than vacuum.:D

[grobblewobble]

monk? TH sucks
I wonder why you think so?

Soirana: first off let me say you did a great job on the testing. Well done. But I disagree on your conclusions.

Which of course means it sucks deeper than vacuum.
Uhm.. TH sucks because it doesn't give you a few additional short bows? :confused:

Also you make no reference here to playstyle, class, type of game.. ? It is now obvious that TH just flat out sucks in any situation, for any game of ADOM ever played?

I have also read your analysis that you linked in your sig. In the first part, you analyze TH from the viewpoint of ToEF survival. Here you say:

Wait a second, i could still pick all that skipping missile master and two affinities. So i trade TH for +3 to hit +3 to damage? Exactly. And no I am not on drugs.
And this is where I lose you. You make it look like all TH does for your ToEF survival is add a small extra chance of finding a ring of ice. I beg to differ. How about the additional potions of stat? How about the additional chance of finding a ring of djinni summoning or amulet of life-saving? How about the additional books, in the case of a spellcaster? How about the additional chance of finding slaying ammo? The improved chance of finding a ring of damage? Improved chance of finding a means of waterbreathing so that you can rob the water dragon? Additional scrolls of protection or of finding potions of cure corruption, scroll or potion of education, or additional potions of water? The additional chance of finding good armor and good missile and melee weapons? You're saying that all of this together does not outweigh +3 to hit and damage for ranged attacks? Seriously?



TH does not help me survive early.

Agreed.



TH does nothing spectacular for ToEF.

.. equally spectacular as (+3,+3) on your missile attack, you mean?



TH does nearly nothing to ease your reach of Casino.

Once again, you seem to be completely ignoring a lot of factors here. Also, not all good stuff has high DL.

[pblack]

Oh shit... of ALL the topics one could necro... why this one? HAHAHHAAHA

i sense a conflict between supernatural entities....

[gut]

Fun fun fun!

[Nezur]

Posting in a legendary thread.

[Silfir]

Man, grobble, part of me is almost sure you did that on purpose, because you missed out on the fun flame wars the first time around :)

The Treasure Hunter Debate is the only one to date that actually started a full-blown forum competition between the two warring sides. Despite the glorious victory of the TH Rocks side I do think the TH Sucks heathens will not be converted in this lifetime...

[gut]

It's got over 10,000 views now : D

[grobblewobble]

:) Actually Soirana resurrected the thread. Check the date of the post before me. :p

Edit: this is my opinion on treasure hunter (http://www.adom.de/forums/showpost.php?p=26552&postcount=20). Is there a It Depends side that I can join?

[JellySlayer]

Soirana: first off let me say you did a great job on the testing. Well done. But I disagree on your conclusions.

Uhm.. TH sucks because it doesn't give you a few additional short bows? :confused:

I think Soirana is responding to this:



In the early game at least this [Treasure Hunter] seems to double item drops. As far as I could tell this included guaranteed drops like bows/arrows from kobolds/raiders (so more chances of a nice stack of slaying or penetrating ammo) and in theory would thus apply later to pick axes from dwarves and eternium armour from chaos knights - all nice to have.


While not a substantial portion of total drops, in the early game, extra bows, orcish spears, arrows, rocks, battle axes, pickaxes, etc. can be pretty important, especially in the early game. I never really liked Grey's argument here anyway, since none of these items are ones that are terribly hard to generate if you don't mind scumming the wilderness a bit. I think the fact that TH doesn't affect corpse drops is actually much more significant.


How about the additional potions of stat?

Low probability item. You might see maybe 5 potions more. If they were all of the right stat (To, Wi for casters), then it might make a difference. Probably not though. The most important stat scumming is done with herbs and even without excessive (read: starvation) scumming, you can get stats that are more than good enough for the tower.


How about the additional chance of finding a ring of djinni summoning?

Very low probability item. TH does not appreciably increase the chance of finding one of these pre-ToEF. Most people use their first wish on an AoLS, anyway, which is a low-value wish as far as ToEF survival is concerned.


or amulet of life-saving?

Useless in the ToEF. Saving Khelly provides no benefits to the ToEF unless you plan on using the extra SoCR as an excuse to get the Shield of Raw Steel, which very few people do.


How about the additional books, in the case of a spellcaster?

By this point in the game, you can just go to the Library. Even still, most casters have all the books they need long before hitting the ToEF. In my humble opinion, you only need seven spells anyway: Invisibility, Darkness, Magic Missile, Acid Ball (although lightning is usually just as good), Strength of Atlas, Teleport, and Farsight. Of these, only acid ball is really rare.


How about the additional chance of finding slaying ammo?

There are much more efficient ways of generating slaying ammo (eg. barbarians) than hoping for lucky drops of it.


The improved chance of finding a ring of damage?

Common item. You should have this by the ToEF.


Improved chance of finding a means of waterbreathing so that you can rob the water dragon?

Common item (ring of the fish), common spell (darkness), and teleport (guaranteed) are all that is necessary. You should have all of these things long before the ToEF. Anyway, if you're using treasure hunter, wouldn't it make sense that you would want to avoid doing potentially risky things like gravedigging or dragon looting because you already have generated all of these extra items with TH...


Additional scrolls of protection

Effect can be easily replaced with smithing if you feel the need. At this point in the game, however, 1 or 2 points of PV is unlikely to make a big difference anyway.


or of finding potions of cure corruption

Low probability item. There are more reliable ways of finding these if you need them, which, for the ToEF, you don't.


scroll or potion of education

Low probability item. Even if you get it, the odds of getting something useful is pretty slim. Having the Law skill is unlikely to make a difference one way or the other.


additional potions of water?

Most TH games I play, I end up with 25+ potions of water by this point that I never use up. In a non-TH game, I have maybe 5 extra waters that I never use up.


The additional chance of finding good armor and good missile and melee weapons?

Unless you're planning on spending a lot of time scumming the lowest levels of the CoC available, the best gear that you'll run across is probably either from Darkforge or Artifacts anyway. As above, one or two points of DV/PV isn't a huge effect by the ToEF, and can be replaced by smithing if you're really worried about it.


You're saying that all of this together does not outweigh +3 to hit and damage for ranged attacks? Seriously?

Let's be careful here. You aren't getting "all of this together" when you take TH. You are getting, if you are lucky, one of those things (and the extra water) that you mention. If TH was likely to give you an AoLS, a RoDS, 5 PoGA, a good ego weapon, a couple scrolls of education, and a pile of dragon slaying quarrels by the time you get to the ToEF above and beyond the bounty of such things that the RNG provides anyway, it would a fantastic talent. But that's not what you get. Many rare items like AoLS, I would say have an average drop rate of less than 1 item per complete game even with TH. Even if you happen to find such a thing with TH that you wouldn't have without it, you are still extremely lucky.