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vogonpoet
06-27-2008, 07:57 AM
I have an lawful DElven Archer who just left the ToEF with her second orb, who would quite like to be my first Ultra winnar.

(ToEF absolutely ridiculous, thrown rocks for everything, then a little bit of frostify for fun, then two blessed dragon slayers, one miss, one hit, W goes down.... what??? Never had archer reach Tower before, due to overconfidence - they really are unbelievable)

I saved K courtesy of Darkforge (first wish there in ages, yay), and am intending to head on down to Casino now to see if there are any junk artifacts there (no precrown, no torc).

My question is this: After feeding ratling, how long do I have to stay chaotic? Do I have to satisfy the crone before turning back to N/L? I seem to remember someone saying you just have to be C flavour to receive first crone quest, and not afterwards - can anyone confirm that?

Also - I can delay Keriax to whatever multiple of 30 I feel like, and enter at any alignment, correct?

Elone
06-27-2008, 09:34 AM
I can confirm that. After you've done crone's quests and got the medal, you can go back to neutral and lawful once more. I will also give you this hint! Alignment is best changed with amulets of order/balance/chaos, BUT they become less and less effective, and once you're level 47, amulets dont affect you at all anymore. Do whatever you have to before that time comes.

By the way, finishing her quests can get you deeper C... Dont let it happen. Always keep yourself just about CN (or was it NC which was a chotic flavour? there are both CN and NC, and one of them counts as chaotic and the other counts as neutral)

P.S. Never call your questions 'noob questions' or 'expert questions'. It's in human nature that we know some things, and dont know others. I'm a human too (or at least i look like one). We ask things that we dont know. BY THE WAY, you're not a noob if you progressed THIS far.

P.P.S Yeah, you can enter anytime, day 30, day 60, day 90. Day 30 is WAY early for any normal game. Day 90 is late, because corruption speeds up then. 60 is optimal. Dont miss it.

vogonpoet
06-27-2008, 10:14 AM
90 day time limit? Meh, am taking my time, will be 90, 120, or 150, whatever.

As for n00b, no ultra win ever = ultra n00b. My self esteem can cope with admitting I have no experience of doing something when I have no experience of doing something.

Elone
06-27-2008, 10:42 AM
Take your time, but there will be a moment when you just wont be able to handle all your corruptions anymore. Saying "ultra noob" can be very misleading. There are many beginners out there who dont know how to sell items in a shop or find the scroll of omnipotence. Keep it on mind.

vogonpoet
06-27-2008, 01:26 PM
Ambiguity? In my posts? Its more likely than you think.

The way I see it, if my PC turns into a WMoPC on day 91 then fair enough, next time I try an Ultra, I will worry more about speeding through the early game. Until then, meh. I shall just do my best to avoid getting pwnEd by corrupting monsters. I will likely die to stupidity long before corruption becomes a problem.

Besides, death by WMoPC-hood is a death I secretly aspire to.

Silfir
06-27-2008, 04:26 PM
The 90 day limit isn't so bad if you manage to save Khelly and speed through the more corrupting places. Then again, I really don't know for sure how big of a problem corruption tends to be for ultra aspirers.

The first letter counts. CN is chaotic, while NC is neutral.

As far as I know, after you've fed the ratling and gotten the medal of chaos, you're free to become neutral and lawful again. Neither of these tasks requires a particularly powerful PC. There's really not much of an excuse not to finish them by level 25, or 30 at the latest, so blessed amulets of order should work even with the Tree starsign. According to the guidebook the amulet of balance doesn't influence alignment, but lessens the amount by which your alignment is changed by performing chaotic or lawful acts - so they are useless if you want to *become* neutral.

Also, vogonpoet, in my eyes, the moment you won the game for the first time you lost all "n00b" privileges...

Grey
06-27-2008, 04:47 PM
My question is this: After feeding ratling, how long do I have to stay chaotic? Do I have to satisfy the crone before turning back to N/L? I seem to remember someone saying you just have to be C flavour to receive first crone quest, and not afterwards - can anyone confirm that?

Also - I can delay Keriax to whatever multiple of 30 I feel like, and enter at any alignment, correct?

I have heard tell that you only need to be C to feed the ratling and accept the old crone's first quest, and seen evidence of it too. I have no experience of that myself though - I usually turn C temporarily when I have all the ingredients, do everything, then switch back quickly after.

You can be any alignment to enter the stone circle and kill Keriax. Same for Malakai. You can only enter the stone circle on the last hour of Darknight, so on day 30 just stand on the square and repeatedly press '>' till it lets you in. On the last game I played I got there at level 30 with a gnomish bard (the first bard I've played since writing my guide for them in fact - wanted to try for quickest ultra ever) but found out I couldn't harm him and he couldn't harm me - ended up quitting in exasperation. Make sure you're well prepared - plenty of dragon slaying ammo and very strong confusion resistance.

Soirana
06-27-2008, 07:16 PM
so on day 30 just stand on the square and repeatedly press '>' till it lets you in.

i managed to miss entering time this way once. Char had stiff muscles corruption on, but... I somehow prefer to run around in 7lb to make my timing.

on other hand entering on day 150 or 180 makes little difference.

vogonpoet
06-28-2008, 11:50 AM
I did visit Keriax once before, with a totally ill-prepared orcish barbarian, just to have a look around.... did indeed get the shit kicked out of him.... shall be interesting to see how my DElf does.... no boar skull at the moment, which is a tad annoying, or indeed scroll of danger, but we'll see how Casino goes...

rmcin329
07-01-2008, 12:13 AM
I've seen the outlaw town generate a scroll of danger before. It was a cursed one though. I didn't buy out the shop or anything, it was there in the shops initial supply of items

gibbering
07-01-2008, 01:08 AM
You can only enter the stone circle on the last hour of Darknight, so on day 30 just stand on the square and repeatedly press '>' till it lets you in.

I will second that this is an awful idea. I've missed the hour twice doing this. Hitting '>' on an wilderness square takes up about 3 or so times the amount of time as it would moving back and forth with Blessed SLB.

And do come prepared. Keriax is no pushover. Be highly adept with a missile weapon with plenty of dragon slaying ammo, OR bring a wand of death with at least 6 charges.

I cannot stress how hard this fight can be. I attempted it once with a level 35 barbarian with vanquisher and was thoroughly pwnt due to my self-overestimation.

Shadow_2014
07-01-2008, 03:33 AM
What does a Cursed Scroll of Danger do? Increase or decrease the danger level that a Blessed or Uncursed one would?

LFk
07-01-2008, 04:19 AM
As for n00b, no ultra win ever = ultra n00b. My self esteem can cope with admitting I have no experience of doing something when I have no experience of doing something.

You know that's really not true.

I think ultra endings are just a function of RNG cooperation more than anything.

I don't know if your personal experience with ADOM is any different from the following: In 99 games out of 100, i find no source of AoLS before i hit Khelly, and thus am forced into gremlin bombing or scumming ID until my brain freezes for aspiring avatars. I'm pretty sure that none of these tactics take even the slightest bit of skill, but rather an extreme tolerance for tedious activities.

I swear i would sooner call it Avatar of Patience than Avatar of Order/Balance/Chaos.





As Elone hinted at, I think the real dividing line between noob and pro is successfully getting the scroll of omnipotence. If you didn't get it a single time, there's still much more to learn about the game.



>>What does a Cursed Scroll of Danger do? Increase or decrease the danger level that a Blessed or Uncursed one would?

If this was running under Nethack mechanics, a cursed Scroll of Danger would probably act as a scroll of peace :P
IIRC, I think in ADOM a cursed scroll of danger actually amplifies how much the danger level is increased by. So it would work in the same direction as a blessed/uncursed, but more so.

>>[[You can only enter the stone circle on the last hour of Darknight, so on day 30 just stand on the square and repeatedly press '>' till it lets you in]]
>>>I will second that this is an awful idea. I've missed the hour twice doing this. Hitting '>' on an wilderness square takes up about 3 or so times the amount of time as it would moving back and forth with Blessed SLB.

Really? It's never failed for me. That it could fail, i did not know. I'll keep it in mind.

vogonpoet
07-01-2008, 09:09 AM
If I have drained all my AoLS / Wish options without success, then I just chat to the poor bastard. Therein lies the criteria by which I decide whether a PC is potential ultra material.

I don't usually get all that turned on by gremlin or ID scumming for an AoLS.

Anyway, PC found a SoDanger in the Library, so satisfying Crone should not be too tricky now - need one of the two farmers in the HMV to leave a corpse at the correct moment. Then it will just be a case of deciding best way of killing time before Day 90... I might try smith up a regen crown...

Elone
07-01-2008, 02:16 PM
Scroll of Peace has the most effect when blessed.
Scroll of Danger has the most effect when cursed.
Those scrolls are mirror images of each other.
They do not use a set number to change DL, but dice.

Shadow_2014
07-01-2008, 08:11 PM
I forget, does a scroll of peace completely stop creature gen on that level? And is it only for a set amount of time?

Kato
07-01-2008, 10:27 PM
I forget, does a scroll of peace completely stop creature gen on that level? And is it only for a set amount of time?

I think it just raises the danger level. Makes the enemies that spawn weaker than they normally would have been on that dungeon floor.

Elone
07-02-2008, 12:38 AM
Did you notice how, the deeper you go, the faster corruption gets, the better items are, the stronger the monsters become? It's all dependent on Danger Levels (DL). With enough scrolls of Peace, you can turn D50 into difficulty of ID1. Likewise, you can go to D1 and cast enough Danger scrolls and make it into a balor/moloch/anything fest, with eternium equipment dropping onto floor as if you were on D50.

At the same time I will add what happened in my game once. A pet shop got generated for me on D1!! Of course, it gave only kobolds and goblins and rats (therefore i bought a pet rat called Squeek...)

Anyway, I closed the gate and came back to play with all the stuff that remains in the game. I ran across that shop and thought of a crazy idea. So I scummed some scrolls of danger and changed the DL to its highest. Guess what, it gave figurines of karmic wyrms, balors, molochs, dragons, killer bugs and such, as if there was no tomorrow. Very useful! Karmic figurines even change colours. Anyway, what I wanted to point at... Since pet shops are already very rare, and if the shop isnt generated on a DL which gives strong monsters, and if you just happen to have extra scrolls or MWS, this is the way to go.

Shadow_2014
07-02-2008, 02:02 AM
Is the alteration of the DL permanent, or does it wear off?

DeSt
07-02-2008, 02:15 AM
Permanent.

Elone
07-02-2008, 09:45 AM
Although, try it in ID and see how permanent it is...

Silfir
07-02-2008, 12:02 PM
Well, the ID level you read the scroll in was changed permanently - you just can't find it ever again :)

Elone
07-02-2008, 09:30 PM
For a while, I liked to think that an ID level is really left to exist somewhere behind me. The illusion is dispelled once you notice that, once you leave an ID level, your savegame doesnt grow in size. You can explore 1000 ID levels and filesize remains the same (not taking picked-up items into account). It means that once you leave an ID room, it's not left behind you, but deleted.

Baranor
07-02-2008, 10:23 PM
If you believe that the human brain stores everthing you have ever seen, then every ID level you have ever played is stored in your brain somewhere.

vogonpoet
07-07-2008, 07:07 AM
My Delf had an XP problem - possibly related to raven sign, so with all the orbs in my pocket, the blue caverns emptied, the fat guy who carries the first of the twins slain, library emptied, etc etc, I was still only level 37 I think it was. So in desperation, I decided to clear out the 2 (two!) greater undead vaults I passed, in the hope of obtaining level 45. I almost got there, but in the meantime, my stats are now worse than they were at start pretty much - I ran out of undead slaying ammo half way through second vault - I kinda knew it was going to happen, but you know, I was hoping the ammo would last the distance.
So now I need to go herb farming and ogre hunting. Ah well. At least I shall have no stat dilemas about eating bug corpses....

Looks like I shall have to continue to scum blue dragon caves further though, to obtain L45. To make matters worse, I decided I should get Courage for like, the first time evar, so I still have a dive to Level 28 of infinity ahead of me.... at least that will give the moss and morgia time to work I suppose.




K St:27 Le:10 Wi: 3 Dx:13 To:14 Ch: 1 Ap: 1 Ma:21 Pe:19 L+
DV/PV: 63/27 H: 312(312) P: 202(202) Exp: 44/15273907 D: 32 Sp: 107
Blessed Invisible Overburdened!

Weapon Skills
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Melee weapon Lvl Hit Dam DV Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- --------------
Clubs & hammers 7 +5 +3 +2 skilled 7
Axes 7 +5 +4 +1 skilled 302
Pole arms 13 +16 +10 +18 Mastery 6038

Missile weapon Lvl Hit Dam Ra Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- --------------
Slings 8 +16 +12 +2 excellent 166
Bows 11 +22 +16 +3 Mastery 604
Crossbows 12 +24 +18 +4 Mastery 1786
Thrown rocks & clubs 10 +20 +15 +3 excellent 513

--------------------- --- --- ------------- --------------
Shields 10 +20 excellent 1147





Effects of Corruption
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your antennae explore the details of your environment (Ap: -4).
Your skin is covered by tough scales (PV: +8, Dx: -6, Ap: -4).
Poison drips from your hands.
Your feet have been transformed into hooves (+8 kicking damage, Dx: -6).
You are surrounded by an unholy aura (Ch: -10, DV: +6).
You have become very light (1/10 weight, St: -6, Dx: +4, To: -6, Ap: -6, +20
speed).
You have grown a total of 12 eyes (Ap: -6, Pe: +6).


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventory
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total weight: 17692 stones Carrying capacity: 10012 stones

He: uncursed crown of regeneration [+0, +0] [55s]
Ne: blessed necklace of the eye [3s]
Bo: blessed mithril chain mail of carrying (-1, -3) [+6, +7] [320s]
Gi: blessed girdle of carrying [+0, +0] [15s]
Cl: uncursed cloak of defense [+3, +0] [20s]
RH: jet-black battle axe "Executor" (+2, 5d6+6) [-4, +1] {St+3} (+3 spd)
LH: uncursed tower crystal shield (-2) [+13, +4] [260s]
RR: uncursed ring of slaying (+8 melee damage, +6 missile damage) [1s]
LR: uncursed ring of mental stability [+0, +1] {Le+1} [1s]
Br: uncursed bracers of war [+8, +4] {Dx+8} [10s]
Ga: blessed thick gauntlets (-1, -2) [+0, +1] [15s]
Bo: blessed seven league boots [+1, +0] [30s]
MW: uncursed heavy crossbow of accuracy (+9, +5) [140s]
Mi: bundle of 5 blessed quarrels of undead slaying (+5, 2d6+3) [20s]
Tl: blessed Chaos Orb of Elemental Fire {St+10} [100s]


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

uncursed ring of djinni summoning [1s]
ring of djinni summoning [1s]
heap of 3 blessed potions of cure corruption [6s]
uncursed potion of cure corruption [2s]
heap of 9 uncursed scrolls of chaos resistance [18s]
heap of 5 blessed scrolls of chaos resistance [10s]

Killed Monsters
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

7192 monsters perished under her attacks.

The following monsters were vanquished:
2 balors
2 doppleganger kings
20 emperor liches //Damn thats a lot of liches.
46 lich kings
31 master liches
1 shopkeeper //stupid aura - stopped me heading to Casino between
vaults for more ammo. don't want 2 'keepers on my list

Achievements
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

She survived for 0 years, 95 days, 0 hours, 33 minutes and 20 seconds
(129901 turns).
K visited 121 places.
Her strength score was modified by +7 during her career.
Her willpower score was modified by -11 during her career.
Her dexterity score was modified by -7 during her career.
Her toughness score was modified by +8 during her career.
Her charisma score was modified by -7 during her career.
Her appearance score was modified by -7 during her career.
Her mana score was modified by +2 during her career.
Her perception score was modified by -8 during her career.
She was unnaturally aged by 38 years.
She was the champion of the arena.
She was the head of the thieves guild.
She made a little water dragon very happy.
She brought an infamous raider lord to justice.
She defeated the arch enemy of a mighty karmic wyrm.
She saved Khelavaster from certain death.

Silfir
07-07-2008, 11:05 AM
Aaah, but Elone, don't you know that data that is stored on the hard drive is not ACTUALLY deleted even if you can't find it anymore? It's still there, the only thing that's removed is the entry in the NTFS or FAT or whatever that tells you WHERE it is. The data itself is not affected. Of course, it might be overwritten... But you'll NEVER know if it will be. And if you know how, you might be able to restore that level!

Grey
07-07-2008, 04:49 PM
So now I need to go herb farming and ogre hunting. Ah well. At least I shall have no stat dilemas about eating bug corpses....

To make things easier you might want to just dump half a million gold into each stat with Garth. Will get them going up quite a bit. I wouldn't go for more than half a million though - after that it just gets silly. Well done on clearing the vaults though, I imagine it must have been difficult as hell.

LFk
07-07-2008, 04:56 PM
Vogon, I tend to run into that problem with characters that have 1.2x/1.2x race/class exp modifiers.

If you have a wish, which i see you have two, the best way to deal with it is go to SMC and wish for Emperor Moloch, lead them to UD:1 where you should create a long corridor beforehand.

Casting slow monster on yourself helps, but incurs some risk. Use at your own discretion, but yeah. That pack of extremely experienced greater molochs should solve your problems: bolt or missile them to death.

Things you should prepare:
- TCtrl and a source of teleportation on demand.
- Enough piety for emergencies.

I've never tried this personally, but i just realized that a wand of webbing would be nice as well. I'm assuming Molochs can be webbed like any other monsters, which would help greatly.

Silfir
07-07-2008, 05:44 PM
He only needs one level at this point. No reason to whip out the emperor moloch treatment!

To get stats, you could wish for ring of weakness plus potions of exchange... But that is EXTREMELY tiring and dull and boring. Potions of exchange plus morgia roots and mosses can get you to respectable values again at least.

Shadow_2014
07-09-2008, 12:27 AM
Speaking of ultra-ending-noobdom, I just got a character to Khelly for the first time. I'm really liking this character and I wouldn't mind attempting an ultra, though I'm not really sure exactly how to, having never even finished normally.

I finished the Pyramid, the Graveyard, all of Thrundarr's quests, I got precrowned once, and would like a second one, but I can't get away from C-, having worn a Blessed Amulet of Chaos while saccing things to my god (does this even help get you closer to your God, or just make you more C?) for quite awhile.

I know I have to give the Demented Ratling 6 artifacts and give Khelvaster an Amulet of Life Saving, so I'm wondering where I might find a likely few Pools to drain for a Wish? I cleared the Puppy Cave (and got its corpse), cleared the Carpenter Cave, and I can't think of anywhere else that might likely have Pools.

Oh, I just remembered, do I need to know what my first kill was to get an ultra?

vogonpoet
07-09-2008, 07:23 AM
Darkforge. Lots of buff steel golums, lots of forges, lots of traps, lots of stuff, lots of pools. In the south of the map. If you have difficulty with the one golum guarding the downstairs return later.

As for first kill, you don't *need* to remember, but I am sure it makes it less stressful - if it was something really common, but you can't remember what, then you have a tense dungeon dive ahead of you near the end of the game...

Xanthine
07-09-2008, 08:13 AM
And this is why I always make my first kill in Lawenilothel, as a bandit or outlaw. Easy to avoid killing many more of and easy to find in the wilderness, so you can have an easy Filk quest and get Courage all at the same time if you like.

Soirana
07-09-2008, 09:36 AM
I finished the Pyramid, the Graveyard, all of Thrundarr's quests, I got precrowned once, and would like a second one

i'd say that is problematic. Normally ankh+AMW+elemental gauntles+Sword of Nonnak+precrown+si+golden gladius means need of character level29.



but I can't get away from C-, having worn a Blessed Amulet of Chaos while saccing things to my god (does this even help get you closer to your God, or just make you more C?) for quite awhile.

second version. makes your closer to C- and does nothing to your piety



I know I have to give the Demented Ratling 6 artifacts and give Khelvaster an Amulet of Life Saving, so I'm wondering where I might find a likely few Pools to drain for a Wish? I cleared the Puppy Cave (and got its corpse), cleared the Carpenter Cave, and I can't think of anywhere else that might likely have Pools.

Darkforge or any random level - unremarkable dungeon , upper part of High King tomb, CoC.



Oh, I just remembered, do I need to know what my first kill was to get an ultra?
Technically what can be checked via old barbarian quest.

Silfir
07-09-2008, 12:39 PM
Right after getting the barbarian quest, write down a couple of likely culprits. If there's even the slightest chance a certain monster could have been your first kill, write it down (orc, goblin, goblin rockthrower, hobgoblin, kobold, large kobold, rat, giant rat, skeleton, zombie...). Enter CoC. Every time you have killed one of your candidates, check back at the old barbarian WITHOUT killing anything else. If you get the "You have shown promise" message instead of the "eyes you suspiciously" one, you've found out your first kill!

Shadow_2014
07-09-2008, 05:22 PM
Phew, that sounds exhausting. I've already gotten my first corruption just from days passed in the game, and it's the stiff muscles one, which will probably mean more will set in sooner. I have a feeling this game will end in my being a WMoPC.

Sword of Nonnak? Where's that found? I hope I didn't sac or sell it without IDing it. I like to hold onto artifacts, or at least know I had gotten them. I figured Darkforge would be good, but I don't know where it is. Is it the one just East of the Gremlin Cave, South of the Glade?

Don't you have to not be C to get the Barbarian Quest?