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Qui
03-11-2008, 11:59 PM
I'd like to share some thoughts about artifacts, their properties, and how would I like to see them in JADE.

Guaranteed artifacts:
In general I am against guaranteed artifacts, unless they are absolutely crucial to the storyline or something. Why? They lessen the replayability value. In ADoM for example there is that rune-covered trident thing. Very nice weapon, not particularly hard to get, especially with a certain star-sign, and it's always there. So a player can just train polearms from the very beginning and a certainty that if he goes far enough, he'll have a nice weapon he's already trained for. Of course, the player can deliberately not do this, but that's not the point.

The same applies, though with lesser extent, to mummy wrapping, ankh, big punch, elemental gauntlets... not the most awesome equipment (although mummy wrapping happens to be very useful), but it's decent. It's indestructible. And most importantly, it's always there. So the player doesn't need to really worry about finding a decent <item type>, which is a good part of the roguelike experience.

So my opinion is: none, or very little, 100% guaranteed artifacts. If a certain artifact is a reward for a certain quest, that's ok, if the quest isn't guaranteed ;). Just that the player doesn't know what he'll get too far in advance.

Semi-random artifacts
An idea of mine, combining the idea of totally random artifacts and ADoM-like predefined pool of artifacts. Basically, it would be a pool of artifacts with defined properties... and defined likelihood of each property being granted to that artifact in each game.

Example (please don't comment on the quality of the example, it's only to illustrate the idea ;)):
elemental gauntlets
fire resistance - 100% chance
cold resistance - 100% chance
shock resistance - 50% chance
poison resistance - 50% chance
stun resistance - 10% chance
death ray resistance - 5% chance

So, those gauntlets will surely have 2 resistances, and possibly as many as 6... but the player won't know until he finds them and greater identifies them. That would add more variety to the game, as well as make SoGI an important item regardless of how many times that player played the game before or if he's using some guidebook or not. And I think it isn't very difficult to code. Also possible would be making some properties mutually exclusive to prevent the artifact from being too powerful.

Random artifacts
These are already being discussed in another thread, but I think they more belong with other artifacts than with auto travel ;).

Anyway, I think that random artifacts are a good idea, although definitely should not replace those hand-made by the Creator. In my opinion if they are implemented, they should be very rare, due to following factors:
-potentially unbalancing - too many random artifacts could create powerful combinations and alter game balance.
-possibly lots of useless ones - the other side of the issue, if there are too many, the player can find himself with a backpack full of artifact junk.
-boring - "Oh, another one, just the same like all others but a bit different numbers."

On the other hand, if their generation rate will be low, they could be quite a treat. By "low" I mean maybe one per a finished game on average or so. This way it would take a long time for one player to discover what properties can be generated, especially if some of them happen extremely rarely, so each and every random artifact found would be a source of excitement. Even if a silly properties' combination gets generated ;).

Grey
03-12-2008, 04:08 AM
I disagree somewhat on not including guaranteed artifacts. Whilst it's nice for every game to be different, it's also nice to have some structure to the game. Not just for playing it, but also for discussion of the game, tactics that online communities come up with, etc. Also certain items are nice to have for their extremely unique properties - elemental gauntlets have special effects on the orbs for instance. And on top of that you have artifacts keyed in with the story (ADOM has quite a few) or somehow tied in with their location/sidequest/guardian etc. I agree with more randomisation of artifacts, but let's not overdo it, and let's not forget some of the things that make ADOM enjoyable to play.

As for completely random artifacts, you are right in that if done wrong they can just be viewed as junk or boring. Would be nice to have a guaranteed way of generating a random artifact though. Like in ADOM you get random artifacts from precrownings, and from greater vaults and the usually the casino, and you don't know if it'll be great or useless till you get it. It gives a level of excitement and hope. You might end up disappointed or you might be extremely pleased. I get bracers of war in almost every long game, but I'm still pleased as hell when I find it - it never becomes boring!

As someone suggested before I'd also like more artifacts with stories behind them, random or not.

ZeroTheBird
03-12-2008, 10:06 AM
i want guaranteed artifacts. i dont wanna get a cursed rusty dagger -3 as loot after taking down (insert important enemy etc)

spectre
03-12-2008, 10:54 AM
Well, I can't really think of reasons not to have _both_ guaranteed and randomized artifacts (-:

I actually like both. Guaranteed ones give you a sense of stability. To give an ADOM example: should you encounter an Ogre Mage (basically = fee or die during early levels), or should he appear as te final challenge in he arena, there's always Ancient Mummy Wrapping to save your sorry bum.

On the other hand, random artifacts make it interesting and unredictable (and that is what I like about roguelikes). It also makes sure you're not screwed from the beginning, like should you choose whips as your weapon of choice.

Qui
03-12-2008, 11:51 PM
To give an ADOM example: should you encounter an Ogre Mage (basically = fee or die during early levels), or should he appear as te final challenge in he arena, there's always Ancient Mummy Wrapping to save your sorry bum.

My point exactly. The 20th arena fight is too easy with the AMW. Instead of preparing for it (searching for/buying items, making use of some wands/potions, etc.), you just wear the wrapping and win with no difficulty. Of course, being well prepared for the fight is crucial in ADoM, but when the method of preparation is always there, obvious and foolproof, it's just not fun anymore. While, for example, there are no guaranteed items which would make ToEF a piece of cake, and that's how it should be. You got some useful things, great, you didn't, go search some more... or try to make do with what you have. That's what the game is all about.


i want guaranteed artifacts. i dont wanna get a cursed rusty dagger -3 as loot after taking down (insert important enemy etc)

I think that's more of an issue of monster inventory generation. I agree that "important enemies" should leave decent loot, but it doesn't mean that is has to be exactly the same loot every time.

Epythic
03-13-2008, 11:10 PM
I also want guaranteed artifacts. When playing the next game, I want to be able to get the thing again. Or, to be able to get the thing <author> mentioned in <post>.

Ars
03-18-2008, 01:11 PM
I think that the game shouldn't have at least too much or too powerful guaranteed artifacts - it was good in ADOM, where you knew the plot, locations and things like that when starting a new game, and you really couldn't win the game without knowing a shitload of details and it was about careful planning toward opponents which you knew beforehand. Guaranteed artifacts also reinforced that structure - first I do that, then that and then I get the Rune-Covered Trident.

But JADE to me seems to be a different game in that it's more about exploring the game world in every game, rather than planning on things learned from previous games. So I think there really shouldn't be much guaranteed things that make detailed planning before actually entering the current world possible, like knowing that I'll train in daggers in this game to make optimal use of this and that dagger.

And in ADOM too I think getting Vanquisher or some other non-guaranteed artifact is much classier than the Rune-Covered Trident which is kinda boring.