Scroll of Omnipotence... [Archive] - ADOM & Ultimate ADOM Forums

Scienceman123

03-13-2008, 12:14 AM

Supposedly there was going to be a red rooster inn where you would get the trident originally, but that has been changed to Khelavaster having it in Terinyo. As the game has changed over the years I'm sure that there have been things that have been added and dropped and changed.

If you hex edit the 1.1.1 EXE (Winbeta 4) you find the following, starting at 000DDE82:

You enter the Red Rooster Inn. It's completely empty...You enter the Red Rooster Inn as the sun is just rising. Alganon, the innkeeper, welcomes you with great joy and honors you for helping the ancient dwarf. As a reward he grants you a long item wrapped in a sheet. He winks at you and mumbles "Ye know what'ta do with dat, don't ye?". Due to some urgent business Alganon then leaves.

Seems like it was a reward for helping Thrundarr.

coppro

03-13-2008, 01:20 AM

And that text is never actually referenced... which is a good reason to believe that it was taken out with the intent to add it later, but that never happened.

Zeon

03-14-2008, 12:41 PM

You enter the Red Rooster Inn. It's completely empty...You enter the Red Rooster Inn as the sun is just rising. Alganon, the innkeeper, welcomes you with great joy and honors you for helping the ancient dwarf. As a reward he grants you a long item wrapped in a sheet. He winks at you and mumbles "Ye know what'ta do with dat, don't ye?". Due to some urgent business Alganon then leaves.[/I]

A long item? that sounds like the Trident of the Red Rooster... =\

Epythic

03-14-2008, 04:22 PM

Sounds plausible, but as we know thats not the way to get the TotRR...

Grey

03-14-2008, 05:52 PM

It could be an obsolete idea, or it could be a deliberate red herring for code-divers.

Dougy

03-14-2008, 10:02 PM

Sounds like it'll take more than killing a tribe of ogres to get what he's giving.

Laukku

03-15-2008, 06:43 AM

Has anyone tried talking to Thrundarr about scroll of omnipotence, red rooster or something?

Epythic

03-15-2008, 07:14 AM

Has anyone tried talking to Thrundarr about scroll of omnipotence, red rooster or something?

Since Thrundarr was on my way...

scroll of omnipotence, omnipotence, red rooster, biskup, tb, thomas biskup, cheat, cheats, secret, secret place, secret places, artifacts, creator, hint, hints, god, test, help, magic, teleport: "Me hast nothing to tell ye about that."

si: "Yeah, the legendary si... an item of great power... most probably. The legendary dwarven champion Groron Garman discovered it (more) for a long time. Legend has it that he never told anyone about the secret powers of this mighty item. It now seems to be lost." (actually, it seems to be in my inventory :) ).

chaos: ...

nothing new, i guess. the SI thing was already explained by TB, iirc in the faq.

if you have something else in mind, tell me.

Laukku

03-15-2008, 07:31 AM

Since Thrundarr was on my way...

scroll of omnipotence, omnipotence, red rooster, biskup, tb, thomas biskup, cheat, cheats, secret, secret place, secret places, artifacts, creator, hint, hints, god, test, help, magic, teleport: "Me hast nothing to tell ye about that."

You could ask about red rooster inn, too.

Another idea: It's a wild guess, but would one be able to wish for "Alhacrast, Overlord of Jak-Nagiur" (he wrote the message in HMV)? Or Lubaf?

Another ideas: ask Thrundarr about weird tome, give him the weird tome, give him the Si, give the Si to Kherab (maybe after finishing his quests), give weird tome to Kherab...

Ankherias

03-15-2008, 07:52 AM

Perhaps the scroll will be found in JADE.. :)

Epythic

03-15-2008, 12:16 PM

You could ask about red rooster inn, too.

Another idea: It's a wild guess, but would one be able to wish for "Alhacrast, Overlord of Jak-Nagiur" (he wrote the message in HMV)? Or Lubaf?

Another ideas: ask Thrundarr about weird tome, give him the weird tome, give him the Si, give the Si to Kherab (maybe after finishing his quests), give weird tome to Kherab...

Asking Thrundarr:
red rooster in, lubaf, hmv, high mountain village, Alhacrast, "Alhacrast, Overlord of Jak-Nagiur", weird tome ---> nothing

Giving him a blessed, uncursed, cursed Si:
refuses to take

Getting frustrated and kicking him:
An alarm is rung! You kick Thrundarr, the ancient dwarf, but do not manage to harm him seriously. Thrundarr, the ancient dwarf, misses you.

I currently dont have a savegame to test the other things.

Reading this thread must be fun for TB... give us a hint!

Troll

03-15-2008, 01:03 PM

I have only one question about this theme.

I'm sure that Scroll of Omnipotence cannot be finded in ADOM, more precisely crumpled scoll is mythical Scroll of Omnipotence, but no one can read it.

I think that TB planned opportunity to find this scroll only after reading weird tome. When you reading the weird tome you find next information step by step (first lines of this info maybe reading under some conditions, other only find in adom.exe)

This book is filled with strange texts written in weird letters.
You have difficulties concentrating on the text.
... try for a while but finally surrender in a pretty confused state.
After a while you manage to focus your sight on the text.
Your understanding of the art of reading is too incomplete to understand the text.
The tome seems to contain strange tunes you don't understand.
The text contains a strange collection of tunes, songs and instrumental pieces.
... have no idea, what all this means.
It seems to be some kind of code, hinting at some ancient powerful magic, a scroll or something like that...
... fail to decipher it.
ABEF0AHGDJDJSHJGSJXKSSJHJKSHJGK572JDJHGSKJ32KDJKHS LK0923JDJHGS6DJKGDSL89SKJHSLKJ3SLKJD2QWLKJNXLD4DLK JSHDJSDGCBJD4KDHXJH7DKJHDJH9DKJHDKH9DHGDG6KDJHDKHD
... manage to decipher the secret.
It describes a means to find the scroll of omnipotence.
... have to %s to find it.

It becomes clear that weird tome is musical tunes book. I tried to analyze this fragnent "ABEF0AHGDJDJSHJGSJXKSSJHJKSHJGK572JDJHGSKJ32KDJKHS LK0923JDJHGS6DJKGDSL89SKJHSLKJ3SLKJD2QWLKJNXLD4DLK JSHDJSDGCBJD4KDHXJH7DKJHDJH9DKJHDKH9DHGDG6KDJHDKHD", assuming that is coded tunes or chords, but has not received any intelligent results, probably because my musical knowledge is too small. And I want to ask question to Thomas Biskup : Is the letters and digital in this fragment coded tunes or randomly symbols? And if it's a tunes, what is the song?

Excuse me for my English.

Scienceman123

03-16-2008, 01:56 AM

If the number of characters in that fragment were a power of 2, it might be a cryptographic hash. Sadly, it isn't a power of 2. :(

EDIT: Upon further examination of the executable, it seems the Scroll of Omnipotence could only be read by champions of Law/Order/Chaos. Around 001DAF43 it states:

As you read the scroll you suddenly feel great power surging through your body. You feel invincible and your abilities are increased by enourmous amounts! Now you are a true champion of %s!...ripped to pieces by trying to claim power not meant for %s..Immediately you realize that this was a big mistake as you are not prepared for the wave of power that suddenly floats your body. You are ripped to pieces almost instantly!....You read the scroll of omnipotence

Tian

03-17-2008, 11:34 PM

Wow!! so there?s a chance that the weird tome *might* give some information about the Scroll... i guess it make sense... if someone manage to read it...

theotherhiveking

03-17-2008, 11:38 PM

If it is readable then you can find what it says code diving.

Epythic

03-19-2008, 07:07 PM

If it is readable then you can find what it says code diving.

Sure? What about dynamically generated messages?

Pseudocode:

if (questDone) { a="ou"; b="era"; c="d0_med"; print "Y" + a + b.reverse() + c.replace("0_", "oo") + "!"

theotherhiveking

03-19-2008, 07:25 PM

Sure? What about dynamically generated messages?

Pseudocode:

if (questDone) { a="ou"; b="era"; c="d0_med"; print "Y" + a + b.reverse() + c.replace("0_", "oo") + "!"

Oh damn.. TB has a twisted mind...

lochok

03-23-2008, 07:31 AM

Dougy

03-23-2008, 09:13 AM

The Creator has made his statement about code diving very clear (look in the faq/manual on this site as well as rgra) - I'd not be practicing it, nor discussing it on his website! I think we should respect his wishes.

Here (http://groups.google.com.au/group/rec.games.roguelike.adom/browse_thread/thread/6b62318c7bd0dfe3/) is the newsgroup post I think you're referring to. Are there others? Not everyone reads rgra.

I don't see any reference to code diving in the manual and the faq refers to the readme.1st. I encourage TB to state clearly in the all of the documents for ADOM/JADE that he does not want people looking at the code or scanning the executable. This is from the readme.1st:

III.E. What about the sources for the game?
===========================================

ADOM's sources are not yet available. My original plan was to release
the sources once ADOM 1.0.0 is finished and I could consider the game to
be even remotely complete.

In the past a couple of folks were very insensitive about my notions
regarding ADOM variants and argued "If the game is available without
costs I can do with the sources whatever I like". Those folks are...
well... socially retarded would be too nice as a description. Let's just
assume that those people really made me wonder about what I'm doing here.
They really should try to create something in the scope of ADOM only once
in their lives and then they might understand. Anyways, those folks
annoyed the hell out of me and I've decided that I'm not going to
release the sources for ADOM.

This will have a good and a bad effect. The good effect is that ADOM
will remain the most challenging and mysterious of all roguelike games,
simply because you just can't take a look into the sources and find
all the secrets right away once a new version is released. The bad
effect (for some people) is that they can't toy around with the sources,
create variants, etc. I can live very well with that and this it will
happen.

the_spy

04-14-2008, 02:52 PM

The scroll has always fascinated me, if it does exist the hint could be a little more than: I didn't hide the scroll of omnipotence here :rolleyes:

Doalag

04-15-2008, 09:41 PM

I totally agree with you Dougy, those code diving thing and author wishes seems a lot like a persistent rumor. Obviously no author of any code not relased as open source will be happy of code diving. Do it and you break the original design the author had in mind.

But breaking this design can be done in many way and it's quite obvious that a stuff done like the guidebook not with code diving but with many information collection and plenty artificial testing with save game backup also totally break the original design. I don't see them more in touch with a supposed wish of the author that the original game design is fully respected.

The only thing is that in most countries disassembling code is illegal but you don't necessary need do it if there's some uncrypted data. Also it's not clear if you uncrypt data in some way if this is legal or not.

Anyway, if code diving can be precious to find stuff, with a code complex enough, testing is the more exact answer.

Elone

04-16-2008, 10:44 AM

GB used code diving, as far as I know (and it's my job to Know). There is a neat example or two in the GB, but I wont be pointing to them. Do your homework and find them.

When I found the Scroll of Omnipotence (shimmering scroll when unidentified), I didnt know what to do with it and yeah. I got rid of it. The only use I could find for it was to dip it into potion of water to make a blank scroll and inscribe something USEFUL on it (like a scroll of familiar summoning) but it didnt get erased - what a waste of potion of water.

Grey

04-16-2008, 12:52 PM

mike3

04-20-2008, 07:49 AM

The guidebook acceped code-diving info until TB explicitly said he wanted it to stop. Since then the only info added to the guidebook has been from experimental observation in-game.

I agree that this is not the right forum to discuss code-dived information. TB has explicitly stated to the ADOM community in the past that he doesn't want it happening, and it's simply rude to openly present such information here. And TB doesn't need to explicitly state it in the manual either - by the game's license any form of recompilation or reverse engineering is illegal (even Vladimir has admitted this).

Some questions: If it was in the license from the beginning, then wasn't it prohibited all along? Furthermore, what is the problem with using already well-known and existing information, and discussing EXISTING, not new, information, especially that which came out before TB's "clampdown" on diving? Especially these well-known strings from the .exe. And am I right in my assessment that merely opening an EXE file in a text editor is code diving? Even if no disassembly is attempted?

Also, where did TB say that he did not want discussion of old existing information to occur, _anywhere_ (as there is no right forum otherwise you would've mentioned what it was to be nice), not merely no more actual code diving activity? Because from what I remember the latter is what he said, he didn't want any more code diving activity, he didn't say anything about old existing information usage. Knowledge is knowledge, once it's out, it's out. Although a certain method of gaining knowledge has now been offlimited (if it wasn't to begin with), the knowledge itself is unaffected. If I'm wrong on this I would love to hear your correction, including references to the exact specific posts from TB himself that show it.

And I think you meant "decompilation" there, not "recompilation"...

Doalag

04-20-2008, 09:57 AM

This has nothing to do with the licensing, there's no need to mention anything already illegal in it. I'm mostly sure but not certain that it's disassembling which is illegal. But I don't think it's illegal to open a file and read there some text. But it's clear code-diving anyway, illegal or not.

That said, I admit it's not cool to see "old" senior, stating you no "code-diving reference" but they keep the nice :p references for them when they probably use them sometimes or used them few time, plus use certainly during their game many knowledge coming originally from code-diving.

I agree that even if I don't question that the author requested something like that in the past, that would be cool to have the links to references that newbies could read by themselves. Secondly that would be more fair play from the author himself to clearly state it in his own forums even if this isn't required on a legal point of view as it's anyway illegal. Plus code-diving just by open a file and read is perhaps not disassembling so clearly state his wish about it in his own forums should be much more fair play with newbies.

Finally, it's clear that the history keep some data as code-diving because they was originally got from code diving, but nobody have collected it by testing just because someone did it before from code-diving. A good example is the monster table, the numbers can be get from testing and probably would be more right or complete than by code diving. The immunities and special abilities can all be get by testing and often it's very very sample and just requires that someone collect data from testing.

But historically code-diving got the information first and now newbies can't have it because of that? Sorry but that is highly not fair.

Elone

04-20-2008, 03:42 PM

Creator doesnt like code diving because he created a free and a huge and a hard game for past several years of his real life; and instead of playing to finish it, we try our hardest to cheat in it.

Creator knew that his game will be dissected by a large community, and everyone will share info and tips and exploits in between themselves. The thing that Creator did was to create an overly complex game with too many features and possibilities, in the way so that a GB is a neccessity. In other words, game was made suitable for a community, not single players. Guidebook is a good thingy, but Creator had to know that the GB writer cannot offer people observations and thoughts, but exact data. Which gets obtained from code diving. ADOM GB is already pretty-much complete, and available to people. It's unfair to ban it and remove it from The Internets, because people who literally know the whole GB (like me) will have a complete advantage over those newbies who potentially wont have access to GB anymore.

I took a look at a plenty of executables, and they're fun to look at, and that's how I sometimes satiate my programmer spirit. At times, exe can also be altered to gain benefites, but in games, we call that phenomenon 'cheating'. I have read somewhere that ADOM has all the textual data in plain text (go look, or dont. i dont care). One pretty interesting use for diving would be to alter the text to your needs (meaning, supressing the 'cursed' and 'blessed' messages, as they are already colourcoded in your inventory; also to suppress some overly long names and messages into something more readable) which actually sounds extremely tempting to me, since I play MUDs; in a MUD, you can usually colour any text into any colour you want, and substitute it with text of your choice, which always makes for an easier experience and less 'more' prompts and less eye strain.

Altering some of these messages is a minor neccessity, but altering dice is cheating. Do it at your own risk, and keep it private. If it makes the game nicer for you, go for it. But no one will want to hear about your heroic conquests, where your main equip was a mutated (+99,9d9+99) dagger, or where wands of wishing were made as common as wands of light.

Enjoy.

Grey

04-20-2008, 06:22 PM

Also, where did TB say that he did not want discussion of old existing information to occur, _anywhere_ (as there is no right forum otherwise you would've mentioned what it was to be nice), not merely no more actual code diving activity?

He never stated such a thing. He'd have no control over anything like that anyway - freedom of speech etc. He's only stated that code-diving is to stop. Obviously it's still going on, but it's kinda rude to talk about how to code-dive or about new discoveries here. As for whatever's in the GB already, I can't see there being any problem talking about its contents - TB links to Andy's GB himself, so he's evidently fine with what's already there.

Finally, it's clear that the history keep some data as code-diving because they was originally got from code diving, but nobody have collected it by testing just because someone did it before from code-diving. A good example is the monster table, the numbers can be get from testing and probably would be more right or complete than by code diving. The immunities and special abilities can all be get by testing and often it's very very sample and just requires that someone collect data from testing.Most of the ADOM info out there isn't from code-diving, but from real testing. If you ask me that's the only info that can be 100% trusted. Code-diving requires a lot of skill to do right, and amateurs attempting it can easily return a lot of dud information. It's not always obvious from the code what a value means and how it ends up affecting the game. Only with real experimentation can you properly see what effect different things have on the actual gameplay. Look at the GB's final score calculations for instance - I'm guessing these results must have come from code-diving, because it takes some very simple testing to show that it's mostly very wrong.

Also, I'm personally quite glad there's not too much code-dived info easily available about the game. It ruins the mystery of a lot of elements, and can make you too focussed on numbers rather than tactics and careful play (which for me is what ADOM is all about). I try my best these days to play without even glancing at the GB - you learn things better from real experience after all. (I'll admit I can never learn the bloody herb orders though - I always have to look those up.)

But historically code-diving got the information first and now newbies can't have it because of that? Sorry but that is highly not fair.Sorry but I think you must be misunderstanding something here - no one's holding information back from anyone else. The Guidebook is sufficient for anyone to play by (and isn't even necessary). Any less scrupulous information can be achieved through Google.

also to suppress some overly long names and messages into something more readable) which actually sounds extremely tempting to me, since I play MUDs; in a MUD, you can usually colour any text into any colour you want, and substitute it with text of your choice, which always makes for an easier experience and less 'more' prompts and less eye strain.You don't need to dissassemble the executable just to do that. ADOM Sage performs such functions through simply modifying the terminal input and output, and is customisable to boot.

mike3

04-20-2008, 06:37 PM

He never stated such a thing. He'd have no control over anything like that anyway - freedom of speech etc. He's only stated that code-diving is to stop. Obviously it's still going on, but it's kinda rude to talk about how to code-dive or about new discoveries here. As for whatever's in the GB already, I can't see there being any problem talking about its contents - TB links to Andy's GB himself, so he's evidently fine with what's already there.

Most of the ADOM info out there isn't from code-diving, but from real testing. If you ask me that's the only info that can be 100% trusted. Code-diving requires a lot of skill to do right, and amateurs attempting it can easily return a lot of dud information. It's not always obvious from the code what a value means and how it ends up affecting the game. Only with real experimentation can you properly see what effect different things have on the actual gameplay. Look at the GB's final score calculations for instance - I'm guessing these results must have come from code-diving, because it takes some very simple testing to show that it's mostly very wrong.

So then, paradoxically, if it comes from code-diving it is less accurate than from hard observation, correct?

Also, I'm personally quite glad there's not too much code-dived info easily available about the game. It ruins the mystery of a lot of elements, and can make you too focussed on numbers rather than tactics and careful play (which for me is what ADOM is all about). I try my best these days to play without even glancing at the GB - you learn things better from real experience after all. (I'll admit I can never learn the bloody herb orders though - I always have to look those up.)

I look at GBs all the time and the game is still fun :) Even if I knew everything in the GBs by heart (Hah! like I could memorize that whole thing!), I still don't think it would take away from the fun. I've never actually won the game without genuine cheating (i.e. savescumming), even though I've read the GB so many times, simply because I just get killed off.

Sorry but I think you must be misunderstanding something here - no one's holding information back from anyone else. The Guidebook is sufficient for anyone to play by (and isn't even necessary). Any less scrupulous information can be achieved through Google.

But from your post I got the idea that you were saying TB explicitly did not want use of this preexisting knowledge already obtained from old code-diving, which I really wanted to hear a source for. You said:

I agree that this is not the right forum to discuss code-dived information. TB has explicitly stated to the ADOM community in the past that he doesn't want it happening, and it's simply rude to openly present such information here.

Which sounds just like what I thought: you are saying TB has explicitly stated he does not want "it" happening, which from the previous sentence is "discussion of code-dived information". If that's not what you meant, are you saying you misspoke? If it is what you meant, I would like to see the explicit post from TB. And furthermore, you said "this is not the right forum", but if TB has said no discussions on it ever, then there is logically no right forum so that would be a given!

gut

04-20-2008, 07:45 PM

Doalag:
> That said, I admit it's not cool to see "old" senior,
> stating you no "code-diving reference" but they keep
> the nice references for them

Is it THAT hard to search a bit? If someone doesn't
provide a direct link to a file, then it is hording?
I am no internet wiz, but with a bit of google use, I
tend to find what I'm looking for quickly enough. If
someone has trouble searching things out, they could
spend a bit of time to increase their searching abilities.

I would provide a link to the best 'searchlore(s)' sight
out there, but the webmaster used to 'reverse engineer'
software *hint* *hint*. I don't think the guy is into
that anymore, but I haven't been there in a while, so I
don't know for sure. I'm not sure about this sight's
policy of linking to pages that could be associated with
reverse engineering, so you will have to search it
yourself. It's very easy to find.

mike3:
> you are saying TB has explicitly stated he does not
> want "it" happening, which from the previous sentence
> is "discussion of code-dived information"

I think 'it' means code-diving, not talking about
code-diving. At least that's the way that I read it.
It's clear enough to me, that TB has not forbidden
the discussion of code-diving on these forums. In
fact, I haven't seen a specific 'RULES' section
at all. Perhaps courtesy and respect are more
effective than rules anyway.

Perhaps we are in an 'experimental' phase of these
forums. Waiting to see if it is neccassary to have
to post a RULES section full of things like:

Do not provide links to ADOM code=dived info.
Do not provide links to reverse engineering websites.
Do not provide links to illegal files.
Do not verbally abuse each other.
Do not threaten murder upon one another.

Do we really need a section like that, strictly
enforced by forum moderators, or can we manage
to be respectful without it.

There used to be a great cheat program available,
but the author stopped providing it. I'm no historian,
but I think it was respect and courtesy, (not a
lawsuit) that was the decision-maker.

> I've never actually won the game without genuine
> cheating

It probably takes years of effort to do that. It is
a sometimes painful journey, but at the end, you
will be amazed by the amount of enjoyment you have
gotten, out of this FREE game. It is really a very
small 'thank you' to just talk about code-dived stuff
elsewhere.

Doalag

04-20-2008, 08:40 PM

Ok I agree that if the link is suspect it's not cool to provide it here.

Otherwise you are doing a lot of noise for very little. I'm surprised the author care so much of this. Are you sure of this? don't you have any link to that? Is it just a preference or something really important?

He should really relax about that. Some people want do some code-diving? Nice those are interested by the game. Some people want play the game by using some info get by code-diving? Again nice, some other people get fun with the game. Who can decide how they'll enjoy the best the game? Themselves or the author? Seriously, I don't see the problem with code-diving and using information about it.

EDIT: Side note, paying a few bucks or not isn't a difference for me. And really money or free shouldn't have any link with respect. :p He he!

Grey

04-20-2008, 09:02 PM

So then, paradoxically, if it comes from code-diving it is less accurate than from hard observation, correct?

Not necessarily less accurate, but not as trustworthy. You can't be sure that the info gained from code-diving has that effect unless you test it out in-game. For instance by code-diving you might find out that it takes, say, 70 livesacs to get a precrown. But testing it in the real game will give you a higher figure because of gradual piety degradation, or switching alignment, or all sorts of other factors. You can't be sure that what you get from code-diving is the full picture.

I look at GBs all the time and the game is still fun :)

Damn straight it is :) But personally I had more fun before I ever saw the Guidebook, and I was discovering things for myself. That was a much greater esnse of achievement then. I think if I could have a victory without consulting the Guidebook once it might add to the fun a bit (though it has its risks). I'm in a dilemna in my mind about what to do when JADE comes out - read spoilers or not? I imagine the lure of knowledge will draw me in to spoiling myself...

Which sounds just like what I thought: you are saying TB has explicitly stated he does not want "it" happening, which from the previous sentence is "discussion of code-dived information". If that's not what you meant, are you saying you misspoke? If it is what you meant, I would like to see the explicit post from TB. And furthermore, you said "this is not the right forum", but if TB has said no discussions on it ever, then there is logically no right forum so that would be a given!

By "it" I meant code-diving of course. It's my opinion that code-diving shouldn't be discussed either out of simple courtesy. I especially think that discussion here of code-diving can only put TB off developing JADE as fast as I'd like. Of course there are no forum rules, or moderators (TB isn't around enough to moderate properly), and personally I prefer it that way. There shouldn't be a forum rule saying "no code-diving discussion" - it should simply be an act of courtesy and respect of members than an enforced rule.

Grey

04-20-2008, 09:08 PM

He should really relax about that. Some people want do some code-diving? Nice those are interested by the game. Some people want play the game by using some info get by code-diving? Again nice, some other people get fun with the game. Who can decide how they'll enjoy the best the game? Themselves or the author? Seriously, I don't see the problem with code-diving and using information about it.

The link was provided above by Dougy. One aspect of it is cheating of course (which can be done) but he has specifically said he doesn't like people finding out game mechanics through code-diving. To quote what Malte Helmert said directly:

"Thomas is also very much against disassembling the executable
to discover game mechanics and secrets. He referred to the section in
readme.1st where it is stated that the good effect of ADOM staying
closed source is "that ADOM will remain the most challenging and
mysterious of all roguelike games, simply because you just can't take a
look into the sources and find all the secrets right away once a new
version is released". "

I agree myself - I like the elements of mystery in ADOM. Things like the riddle of the weird tome excite me. Of course you may well disagree with his opinion on the game, but it's still his wishes and I feel that should be respected.

Personally I think if people want to code-dive in private, that's fine, but they shouldn't release their discoveries publicly. That way (almost) everyone's happy.

Doalag

04-20-2008, 09:23 PM

Well second hand reports are always highly suspect (and worse we have here a third hand report). In my country after a president change in the past some people didn't get welcomed anymore to some television. This same president said some time after to one of those 'unwelcomed' people : "The strongest censorship is coming from those who think to know what the 'king' wants".

A second point is that some code-diving data could be get by testing but as veteran have already the data they don't bother collect it through testing, nice example is the monsters table.

Third point, about playing with a walkthrough/guide or not, I never play a game with a walkthrough. I always give it a chance without any help and put some time solving the problems, and usually prefer asking some questions on forums. I gave Adom its chance, but when I saw the first answer I got, it became very fast obvious that the game hadn't enough hints for me, so I continue a little with guidebook and found it working.

Fourthly, in no way, freeware or not, great game or less great, long or short, you'll make me admit any player cannot decide by himself what's the best for him, using a guidebook or not, using some code-diving info or not, using help on forums or not.

Grey

04-20-2008, 09:58 PM

Well second hand reports are always highly suspect (and worse we have here a third hand report).

Why don't you read the report (http://groups.google.com.au/group/rec.games.roguelike.adom/browse_thread/thread/6b62318c7bd0dfe3/) yourself then? It's very clear on matters. Malte (a long-standing and trusted member of the ADOM community, who was by far and beyond one of the biggest contributors to the Guidebook) had a long phone conversation with Thomas, and communicated his abundantly clear wishes, which TB himself replied to in the same thread. It convinced the likes of Vladimir, inventor of ADOMBot and by far the best code-diver ADOM has ever seen, to hang up his tools. There aren't exactly many grey areas here.

Fourthly, in no way, freeware or not, great game or less great, long or short, you'll make me admit any player cannot decide by himself what's the best for him, using a guidebook or not, using some code-diving info or not, using help on forums or not.

And I don't think anyone has ever said that either.

Doalag

04-20-2008, 09:58 PM

Mmm when reading again the last elone post I'm starting suspecting that this "famous" monster list "get from code-diving" is just the unauthorized adom guidebook, a link I have since a long time! :D

Honestly, I feel I get more from the adom data monsters list, also interesting is the Markku Rikola monsters list, I quoted some information not seen in other lists.

Elone

04-21-2008, 12:18 AM

I saw both the GB monster list, and the dumped monster list (which i also found years ago, but havent look at it in years, either). I skimmed thru the Dump a few times, I looked at it blankly, and my final response was always "Bleh". GB monster list (which seems like it was made by pure testing and experience) is a much better list to look at.

One the same page as that monster dump, there is the items dump. You can see some additional data about items, like their class and danger levels, but neither of those is hardly useful for anything that you'd want to do ingame.

The older I got, the less I spoiled my games (any videogames) with hasty guides and cheats. Ideally, I will finish a game without any help the first time, and will fully use some guide the seconds time, and I will add the cheats to the game the 3rd time, because I offset the boredom (after playing a game that i already finished before) with guides (which help me find new content, it's often like playing a game anew) and cheats (it lets me play the game without bothering with gameplay, but to advance the plot).

However ADOM was too hard. I decided to read that book after more than half a year of failures, and it feels nice. I also wonder how JADE GB will progress!

gut

04-21-2008, 01:47 AM

> I'm surprised the author care so much of this.
> Are you sure of this? don't you have any link
> to that? Is it just a preference or something
> really important?

I never bothered to think about preference vs
really important. Even if it is just SLIGHT
preference, isn't that enough to just refrain
from giving (code-dived related) direct links
on (just) these forums.

> Seriously, I don't see the problem with
> code-diving and using information about it.

Me either! I've sniffed a few offsets in my
day : ) Well, way back in the day anyway. I
enjoyed toying around with memory addresses,
for ultimate stats, HP's, even for quest
availability and so on. I haven't tried any of
that in a long while though. Also, I never
posted any of it, and if I did post any, I
wouldn't advertise it here.

> Side note, paying a few bucks or not isn't
> a difference for me. And really money or free
> shouldn't have any link with respect. He he!

Think about one guy, creating something as
complex as ADOM, and not charging for it. I've
gotten a huge ammount of enjoyment from ADOM,
and it hasn't come with ANY mandatory cost. Even
these forums are free! I appreciate that a lot.

> Well second hand reports are always highly suspect

If TB was in favor of code-diving, then the
best program for allowing cheat functions, would
still be easily available from it's author. It
is not though, Vladimir voluntarily stopped
offering it. To me, that's as good as a first
hand report.

> Fourthly, in no way, freeware or not, great game
> or less great, long or short, you'll make me
> admit any player cannot decide by himself what's
> the best for him

Play the game how you like. I do! Search the web
for all of the 'forbidden' knowledge that you
like, goodness knows I do!!! The only thing that
makes me feel awkward, is recieving requests to
provide direct links to code-dived info on these
particular forums.

> Mmm when reading again the last elone post I'm
> starting suspecting that this "famous" monster
> list "get from code-diving" is just the unauthorized
> adom guidebook, a link I have since a long time!

No sir, not if you are refering to the monster list
that I was talking about earlier. This thread
contains enough keywords to find the list, along
with the program that accompanies it.

mike3

04-21-2008, 04:55 AM

Not necessarily less accurate, but not as trustworthy. You can't be sure that the info gained from code-diving has that effect unless you test it out in-game. For instance by code-diving you might find out that it takes, say, 70 livesacs to get a precrown. But testing it in the real game will give you a higher figure because of gradual piety degradation, or switching alignment, or all sorts of other factors. You can't be sure that what you get from code-diving is the full picture.

That makes sense. The game is so complicated anyway.

Damn straight it is :) But personally I had more fun before I ever saw the Guidebook, and I was discovering things for myself. That was a much greater esnse of achievement then. I think if I could have a victory without consulting the Guidebook once it might add to the fun a bit (though it has its risks). I'm in a dilemna in my mind about what to do when JADE comes out - read spoilers or not? I imagine the lure of knowledge will draw me in to spoiling myself...

Although it'll probably take time before detailed spoilers like those for ADOM become available -- the GB is a compilation of years of work by a great many people.

By "it" I meant code-diving of course. It's my opinion that code-diving shouldn't be discussed either out of simple courtesy. I especially think that discussion here of code-diving can only put TB off developing JADE as fast as I'd like. Of course there are no forum rules, or moderators (TB isn't around enough to moderate properly), and personally I prefer it that way. There shouldn't be a forum rule saying "no code-diving discussion" - it should simply be an act of courtesy and respect of members than an enforced rule.

So you meant code-diving itself, not the information that already exists, right?

mike3

04-21-2008, 05:45 AM

After reading this stuff I figured maybe it is time to better explain where I come from on all this.

There was a time when I once wanted the source code for ADOM, although now I have lost interest in it. I wanted it so I could learn how to program a Rogue-like game and one with the type of intricate world ADOM has in it, not so much as to know all the secrets. I even once proposed to TB that he release the engine sans the stuff that actually makes it *ADOM* but that didn't go over well either. And I made proposals to release code under "look-but-don't-touch" licenses that would prohibit variants, etc. but those didn't float either. (These and the engine-only releases were the schemes I gave the most attention since I wanted to learn above all else.)

So I gave it up, after getting flamed and insulted several times (more by others than by TB himself), and now I've found out that I really don't need the code any more since now I've found answers to my programming questions through other means. And I've already found out that the scrolls of omnipotence and related garb are more or less just red herrings and hoaxes so they don't have any more excitement left to them, so there goes another reason for me to want the code. However the frustration I experienced not being able to learn the programming secrets of that magical and wonderful ADOM game was very hard for me. And it helped to drive in Richard M. Stallman's points about Libre software.

I've often wondered if TB is trying to play a game of his own with the community with this whole "mystery" thing, to keep 'em guessing and stumbling.

Anyway, I've been playing around with trying to make my own Rogue-like game, although I currently don't have much done yet. If I do ever get it done, I would release it under a Free (Libre) license that would allow for people to do the things with the game they want to do and to study and learn from the code as much as they want, and to make modifications, and so on. A "copyleft" license like GPL is what I'd be thinking of using. TB wouldn't do that, that's for sure, but I would. If in dissecting and modifying my game people learned something about programming and computers and they go on to use those skills to make something that does something really beneficial, then the creation I made has done something good. And what is the point of creation if it does no good? There is none. If they modify and twist it and make a "munchkin fest" of it they can go ahead, I might have a good laugh at it if it's silly or stupid. See, I believe in people's rights to curiosity and exploration. Especially with something as innocent as a computer game. I used to take apart toys when I was little to see how they work, why should I not be able to do the same with the toys on my computer?

But TB can disagree and do ADOM his way, it's just that I do not agree with or endorse that way. I'll just do mine my way, and he can disagree and not endorse it either :)

Also, are you saying that because this is TB's forum it would be best not even to discuss preexisting information obtained from code-diving done before his nosaying simply for that reason alone -- it being TB's own forum (and so out of simple courteousy and respect.)?

Grey

04-21-2008, 02:02 PM

Also, are you saying that because this is TB's forum it would be best not even to discuss preexisting information obtained from code-diving done before his nosaying simply for that reason alone -- it being TB's own forum (and so out of simple courteousy and respect.)?

No one has said that. Pre-existing code-dived info is in the Guidebook, and gets discussed here all the time. It's only been said that no new code-diving info should be here, nor any links to code-diving software. And again, that's just an opinion.

As for your own roguelike attempts, best of luck. Perhaps after a few years of making you might understand a little of how TB feels about his stuff, even if your ethos is different. Personally I'd be very possessive of anything I made, and the idea of people taking it apart or creating variants would be quite awful. Everyone has their own reactions to this sort of thing though.

mike3

04-21-2008, 06:27 PM

No one has said that. Pre-existing code-dived info is in the Guidebook, and gets discussed here all the time. It's only been said that no new code-diving info should be here, nor any links to code-diving software. And again, that's just an opinion.

Oh, OK.

As for your own roguelike attempts, best of luck. Perhaps after a few years of making you might understand a little of how TB feels about his stuff, even if your ethos is different. Personally I'd be very possessive of anything I made, and the idea of people taking it apart or creating variants would be quite awful. Everyone has their own reactions to this sort of thing though.

But for me, if people can learn from it, then it has done something useful, it has done more than simply be a game. And that is a good thing in my set of views. I already "understand" how TB feels about it, it's just that I don't *agree* with him, I don't need to finish the program to do it.

I would actually find it great if someone got some useful knowledge from reading the code or changing it. But then again you can find it bad if you want, as can TB.

myrddin

04-25-2008, 11:34 PM

since I play MUDs; in a MUD, you can usually colour any text into any colour you want, and substitute it with text of your choice..

Ive been a long time mud player myself - which one(s) are you currently playing?

Laukku

04-26-2008, 07:31 AM

So would it be OK if I posted all well-known information related to the scroll of omnipotence? (After all the scroll was the original topic of this thread...) I'm thinking it would be practical to have everything that has been discovered so far here.

Grey

04-26-2008, 12:49 PM

Hasn't everything known already been said? The code-dived info on the item has already been posted by an aptly named user. If you have any other info derived from testing then please do share.

Laukku

04-26-2008, 05:13 PM

Hasn't everything known already been said? The code-dived info on the item has already been posted by an aptly named user. If you have any other info derived from testing then please do share.

Well, I was thinking more like listing them in a single post...

IIRC somewhere in the exe was the SoO itself, listed as "scroll of omnipotence" and "ancient scroll" when un-IDed(edit:Yep, it is mentioned in the scrolls&books section of the Guidebook (http://www.andywlms.com/adom/adomgb-app-F.html)). But there are still in-game clues:

*Exact contents of the strange message in HMV:

Dear Lubaf, I am sorry to disappoint you but you won't be able to find the Scroll of Omnipotence in this place. I have hidden it more effectively. You will need to find the red rooster at dawn. Then you'll encounter the final challenge.

With passionate hate,
Alhacrast, Overlord of Jak-Nagiur.

*Khelavaster mentions this after summoning the TotRR:
"Some folks confused the function of this scroll and created foolish legends about it." Which implies that the Crumpled Scroll could be the ?oO.

And things already mentioned in this thread:

Entering IotRR
http://www.adom.de/forums/showpost.php?p=691&postcount=6
Reading the Weird Tome and the coded message
http://www.adom.de/forums/showpost.php?p=862&postcount=17
Reading the SoO
http://www.adom.de/forums/showpost.php?p=907&postcount=18

Ascaron

10-30-2008, 07:55 PM

Well, I've been attempting to get the scroll for a while now. In 1.0.0, I made little-to-no progress, but I have received some clues about how it might be possible in triple-one.

First, Race, gender and class (I believe) are important. If my theory is right, then your character needs to be one certain race, gender, and class. Without those three, you might as well throw it away and start new.

What R/G/C, you ask?
I believe it is only possible to get the SoO as a Female Dwarven Bard. Don't ask me why, because that will lead, I'm sure, to people flaming me and you both into little burnt-up crisps, but yeah. That's the start of my theory.

If I can manage to get an FDB to the next part of my theoretical plan, then I'll let you all know whether I'm right or not... but the odds of survival are low-to-no, so I'm not expecting quick progress here. The RNG isn't nice to me when I'm playing a bard... or any other character really.

Well, who knows? I might make it!

Grey

10-31-2008, 03:51 AM

Well, whilst I think you're crazy, you might want to check out my guide to Bards (http://adom.brinkster.net/forum/messages.asp?thread=5990&start=57841&page=1&tmp=58119) for some advice on keeping them alive. Dwarves are actually the easiest to keep alive in my opinion, due to their awesome starting pet.

I would like to hear your reasons for female dwarf as the gender/race choice. The class choice is obvious to anyone who's researched this thing. If you think it's somehow to do with seducing the "ancient dwarf" then you have a very odd imagination ;)

gut

11-01-2008, 07:04 PM

Crazy!? You think THAT is crazy?! Oh man, I can beat that by a long shot. Here is a list of a few of my past ideas for investigating ADOM mysteries:

Ancient dwarves come in halves:
I gathered up 206 bones, dropped them in Griff's grave and poured every potion in Ancardia on top of them. Yeah, that was BEFORE realizing the game never actually described Griff as 'ancient'. Whoops. Also, what made me think that dwarves had 206 bones anyway?

I thought the Banshee might have been married to Rolf (WHY!), and so lured the Banshee to Dwarftown, in hopes that she might mistake Thrundarr for Rolf. I don't remember any sectrets uncovered, just a bunch of dead dwarves.

I thought that since the purple r says that the stone circle 'still haz some other effects' that Rolf may have blundered in there one day, and couldn't find his way out of it. So I got myself to L+ and held down the > key for a couple of weeks of real-life time. I observed nothing but weather patterns.

Scroll of Omnipotence:
In the fool's babblings, he says 'heat the warning', so I did heat the 'scroll of warning' and the 'strange message scroll' in several different ways. I blasted them with firebolt/ball in several strategic locations like in front of Thrundarr/Khelly etc. to absolutely no effect. I even placed them on the ground when placing the Fire Orb, nothing.

Since Yergius is the only NPC (and in fact the only monster) in the game that will always stand perfectly still, and also let you swap places with them indefinitely, I lead him everywhere in the game. You may think I exagerate on this, but I assure you I am not. I lead him EVERYWHERE! To the stone circle, to the Oracle, ID level 4 million, everywhere. I thought he might give some hint but instead, he just enjoyed the sights.

The stupid drunk says "search the bard and hit him hard", so I whack the Mad Minstrel and chat with him when he panics. While he's panicing, he says "have you seen the man with the harmonica, I need him how and here!". To my knowledge, no other NPC says things like that when attacked, and I know about attacking NPC's : ) So I start thinking he means Jharod, because he needs a healer. So I lead Jharod to him, which was not easy, but it did nothing. I then noticed the monster description of Filk, and it says he is accompanied by a humming sound, and I thought that may be caused by having a harmonica. I lead Filk (and even several dozen Filks) to the Mad Minstrel, who just kept stupidly wandering around his clearing.

That's all I can think of for now, but believe me, there's more.

Theym

02-14-2010, 01:17 AM

Since Yergius is the only NPC (and in fact the only monster) in the game that will always stand perfectly still, and also let you swap places with them indefinitely, I lead him everywhere in the game. You may think I exagerate on this, but I assure you I am not. I lead him EVERYWHERE! To the stone circle, to the Oracle, ID level 4 million, everywhere. I thought he might give some hint but instead, he just enjoyed the sights.

Dude, there's also those guardian things in the hmv

Albahan

02-14-2010, 03:43 AM

Lol... resurrecting a thread where the last post was over a year ago just to correct him on a fairly insignificant fact is... hilarious haha

lotuskip

02-14-2010, 06:39 AM

Hmm. I noticed a while ago that the ratling guardians will run away if you have the unholy aura corruption (and when they stop panicing they'll just stand guard wherever they ended up). Wonder if that is true about Yergius..?

Maul

02-14-2010, 08:26 AM

I do thank the necromancer for bringing up Gut's post as well, which is pretty much full of win.:)

gut

02-14-2010, 10:09 AM

Dude even registered to do it too, as that is his
only post. Excellent : )

Theym

02-18-2010, 12:58 AM

lol i didn't even realize how old this was

head2

02-18-2010, 06:30 AM

I went in a room which had the "You get the odd feeling that something is wrong with your perception of this room, but can't seem to tell what it is from just looking around." -effect, and tried reading a scroll labeled "ECNETOPINMO". :D

I don't rememember if my scroll was identified or did i have to check it's appearance in the identified items-log.

The Metro Gnome

02-18-2010, 07:38 PM

Did anyone try finding flik, talking to him, killing the Mad Minstral, and then talking to flik once more?

Albahan

02-18-2010, 09:20 PM

yeah I have... before you kill the minstrel when you chat with filk he says something like "killtheminstrelandyouwillhaveaveryhappyquickling" and then after killing he says something like "meisaveryhappyquickling"

Zalbag

03-04-2010, 03:08 AM

this thread inspired me to ask Thundarr about a bunch of things, he has interesting replies of you ask him about Khelavaster, or "sage," "dwarftown," and "Rolf." is there a big fat list somewhere of all the things he will actually talk about, or give a decent response about?

psy_wombats

03-04-2010, 04:29 AM

If memory serves...

Quest
Portal
Hello
Glod
Bart (might have to call him Gladiator or something, I forget)
Waldenbrook
Garth
Torgald
Groro
Gorko
Khelavaster
Rolf
Caladriel
High King
Griff
Banshee
Eternal Guardian
Dwarven city
Terinyo
Axe/hammer
Corruption

Zalbag

03-04-2010, 11:09 PM

man, there's just so much hidden story the game, it's great! The mad minstrel sings a song that explains the Eternal Gaurdian's backstory, too I found out - but this is probably ancient history to you. I've seen a list of the minstrel's songs somewhere, but I didn't bother reading them all. I DID, however, get real excited when I found the phrase "mad minstrel" used to describe a character in a Micheal Moorcock book.

Ascaron

03-05-2010, 03:21 AM

If memory serves...

(snip)

Also:

Si
Fire
Gold
Orc
Chaos
Phial
Dwarf

EDIT: I've added a list of what you can ask about, along with his replies, to http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Thrundarr . If you see anything I missed, feel free to add it ;)

The Metro Gnome

03-06-2010, 04:40 PM

Fox Nawagu= faux wagon = Fake car in French. Any one speak french?

Morb

03-06-2010, 06:04 PM

Fox Nawagu= faux wagon = Fake car in French. Any one speak french?

I do

"Faux" means fake, or false indeed

"wagon" would be more accurate as in erm, part of a train where people travel in, like the ones after the locomotive

-feeling a bit dumb not to know the exact english word- -_- sorry

Albahan

03-06-2010, 06:09 PM

"wagon" would be more accurate as in erm, part of a train where people travel in, like the ones after the locomotive

Like a caboose?

The Metro Gnome

03-06-2010, 07:00 PM

No that would be the back of a train. I really don't know if we have a word for that (kinda like we don't have a word for the outside of a coffee shop)

Ascaron

03-06-2010, 07:01 PM

I believe what you're talking about is simply called a "train carriage". At least where I come from...

Dudley

08-19-2010, 04:37 PM

Soirana

08-19-2010, 05:21 PM

Dudley

08-19-2010, 05:23 PM

how would you get second one? Writing it?

Yup. i recalled that it was possible to write it, somewhere

JellySlayer

08-19-2010, 05:39 PM

Yup. i recalled that it was possible to write it, somewhere

Yes, my understanding is that once you read the scroll, you can write it afterwards. This apparently is useful since the scroll can be destroyed in all the normal ways that scrolls can, but if you read it immediately, then it won't deny you the ToTRR if the scroll is destroyed.

breeolson

08-19-2010, 08:05 PM

Why don't you read the report (http://groups.google.com.au/group/rec.games.roguelike.adom/browse_thread/thread/6b62318c7bd0dfe3/) yourself then? It's very clear on matters. Malte (a long-standing and trusted member of the ADOM community, who was by far and beyond one of the biggest contributors to the Guidebook) had a long phone conversation with Thomas, and communicated his abundantly clear wishes, which TB himself replied to in the same thread. It convinced the likes of Vladimir, inventor of ADOMBot and by far the best code-diver ADOM has ever seen, to hang up his tools. There aren't exactly many grey areas here.

And I don't think anyone has ever said that either.
I think where you live is a grey area.
Ahahahaaaaaaaaahhhaaaaaaaa

Mankeli

08-19-2010, 10:45 PM

Stupid idea, but gut's post 2 pages ago showed me it's probably not the stupidest : anyone tried reading the weird tome with ALL kinds of instruments with/on him?
Also, did anyone try to make TWO crumpled scrolls and giving one to Khelevaster after getting TotRR?

Here's another idea: when wielding TotRR, put the weird tome in your tool slot like an instrument and then try to read the second crumpled scoll.

OR: give the second crumpled scroll to eternal guardian. You can get past him without killing him then come back later and let him multiply and then talk to the peaceful EG after killing the hostile one rite? Or just try giving the the weird tome to him in the first place.

I did some very limited testing (probably done by many others) with the weird tome a while ago with my 50 lvl bard. I was hoping that drinking from the Stone Circle pool and then reading the tome woud give something but no.

I know the scroll does not probably exist....but then again solving the mystery would be gargantuan!