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View Full Version : JADE a bit TOO massive?



heavensblade23
03-14-2008, 12:25 AM
One thing has stuck out for me from the relatively few JADE screenshots that have been released...everything looks almost TOO massive. I remember a city screenshot was posted a year or two ago that showed probably 2-3 dozen buildings. It seems to me it would lead to tediousness in finding what you were looking for. What's the use in having 40-50 buildings in a city when the majority of them probably won't have a purpose?

Same thing with the overworld map, to a lesser degree. Having a very large world map just makes it harder to navigate since you won't have 'the big picture' in mind.

I'm all for adding complexity since that what roguelikes are all about, but not necessarily in navigating my character.

Grey
03-14-2008, 12:31 AM
I love games that encourage exploration, and the size of the maps in JADE fills me with glee. What's needed though is a sufficient number of random flavour factors to make all those side buildings have something of interest. There should be lots of minor random quests with normal townsfolk, little items to be found, rumours to be heard, and so on. It can be ignored if you want, but it's there if you want to look more deeply. What could be nice also is an auto-walk function for inside towns - choose your destination on the map (assuming you've explored the town already) and your character will take a logical route along the streets to get there, avoiding bumping into townsfolk on the way. Could reduce the tedium a bit. Also, hopefully the hunger rate is lessened a bit since you could end up needing lots of food just walking around cities.

Tannis
03-14-2008, 12:36 AM
I think Thomas can pull it off. It boils down to one thing, and that's if the micro details match the macro. Ever played the AD&D video game Ravenloft? It's a fun game, above average but not ground breaking. You spend a lot of time in this village and it's huge. I'm talking at least 60 buildings. But really, it might as well be 5 or 6 cause that's how many of them matter. Most are empty, and that makes exploration tedious.

If Thomas makes a huge world where each dungeon is challenging and full of monsters, each building in each town has an interesting NPC, a quest, or a plot element, the game works. If it's all empty space it won't work. I have faith in the creator.

kala
03-14-2008, 07:00 AM
I think its way too early to really say anything.. Cant remmeber correctly, but that city shot might have just been something to show what the engine can do. Also if theres some huge cities, there can be small ones too :) Also with these blog posts latelly, i dont realy think empty world will be that much of an issue.

ZeroTheBird
03-14-2008, 10:30 AM
Only Cowards is cowardly running away from the awesomeness of jade!

Epythic
03-14-2008, 11:39 AM
If Thomas makes a huge world where each dungeon is challenging and full of monsters, each building in each town has an interesting NPC, a quest, or a plot element, the game works. If it's all empty space it won't work. I have faith in the creator.

And exactly that is the problem: as far as I know a lot of the world will be randomly created. And random stuff often looks the same from every side.

But its a nice experiment, and we will see how well it goes. Dont expect the first JADE release to be better than ADOM. Different, but not better. All the detail stuff is probably still to be done.

spectre
03-14-2008, 01:24 PM
I guess that we'll just have to wait and see how JADE will feel.

I understand the concern, though. Finding the tiny girl, heck even the sheriff at times, in Terinyo could be a PITA (especially if you have a stack of raider corpses ready to decompose any second).
It might take a few releases before all the rough edges are gone, but that was to be expected, ADOM wasn't built in a day.

I guess the quest log will have to be expanded a bit more for this. Asking NPC for directions is also a plausible solution. So are "locate person" spells.

Sradac
03-14-2008, 03:20 PM
gah you just gave me another spell idea with that locate person, "sense undead" leaves all undeads on the current map glowing even if not in sight! maybe a yellow or red * something thats kind of undeady.

adom-admin
03-14-2008, 10:15 PM
And exactly that is the problem: as far as I know a lot of the world will be randomly created. And random stuff often looks the same from every side.

But its a nice experiment, and we will see how well it goes. Dont expect the first JADE release to be better than ADOM. Different, but not better. All the detail stuff is probably still to be done.

Absolutely. JADE is a courageous experiment for me and especially map sizes, etc. will need a lot of fine tuning. Right now the huge maps exist to show what is possible... what is necessary is a very different question.

And you are absolutely correct in that the initial releases will most probably lack almost all (if not all) things that make a city interesting (e.g. for now shopkeepers do not yet exist - I'm yet undecided if they will be a part of the first two or three releases or not).

But JADE has a long way before it... the initial releases of ADOM also were very very different from the ADOM you know today and it will probably require a year or three to get back to the complexity of ADOM (although the more generic nature of JADE will allow to utilize new features in several places at once so that I expect the world to become richer at a higher pace than in ADOM).

I'm optimistic because already now these forums contain so many good ideas I hadn't yet thought about... it will be fun to add all the stuff ;-)

Dougy
03-14-2008, 11:34 PM
Well, there could be mini-quests for each house and so on. Some thoughts:

Random: "Help! I've lost my <item>! Will you help find it?"

Goodwife: "You couldn't pop down to the shop for me an fetch a pint of milk? There's a darlin'"

Goodhusband: "Blast! My dogs run off with my <item>..."

Goodhusband (+ Goodwife): "Oh! I've always wanted to be an adventurer, but then I met my wife and we had children and now all I do is change nappies..." "Darling? Are you there?" "Coming dear... *sigh*"
Goodwife (+ Goodhusband): "My husband is so lazy, he never helps with the babies! *PIERCING VOICE* Darling? What are you doing?"

Little girl: "*waa* *waa* I scraped my knee." Do you wish to console the little girl? <y/n>

Little boy: "Ooh? Are you an adventurer, can I play with your <weapon/bow>?" Do you let the little boy play with your <weapon/bow>? <y/n>

Fueding neighbours: "Curse that neighbour! How dare he plant that tree to block the light to my garden! Hey, can you chop it down for me?"

Chef: "Where I come from we had such variety of fresh herbs - now I'm here! Could you collect a few ingredients for me?"

Butcher: "Did you know, we pay for fresh carcasses."

Grey
03-15-2008, 05:08 AM
Even simple flavour texts by townsfolk would be nice to give the PC an idea of what the city is like. For instance in a city with extreme law enforcement people would be wary of talking to strangers, but some kindly souls might give you cautious coments on how to behave. PCs with high charisma would be able to find out a few rumours about the rulers and recent events. In countries at war with each other NPCs might spout hateful and racist comments, or perhaps even bemoan the cost of warfare on their economy. Other simple things would be advice on which shops to go to, where temples are, how to get to other cities, dungeons nearby, etc. As you become more recognised people could make comments on your own reputation, rumours they've heard about you, etc ("Is it true you killed the greater demon with one armed tied behind your back?") Things could change as time goes on, with a pool of comments that can be randomly altered.

Sradac
03-15-2008, 05:15 AM
Butcher: "Did you know, we pay for fresh carcasses."

For some reason this one stuck out to me there could be a good way to make cash with that, certain areas prefer certain meats, and things that arent found around there could be worth more as its more "exotic" he could even give you certian quests or missions to bring in rare types of meat, maybe have a quest for a single kind and have that monster only spawn in one place, a named or something like that. Just rambling thought it could have really cool potential with something as simple as the butcher.

Tannis
03-15-2008, 03:14 PM
For some reason this one stuck out to me there could be a good way to make cash with that, certain areas prefer certain meats, and things that arent found around there could be worth more as its more "exotic" he could even give you certian quests or missions to bring in rare types of meat, maybe have a quest for a single kind and have that monster only spawn in one place, a named or something like that. Just rambling thought it could have really cool potential with something as simple as the butcher.

Ever play the AD&D game Dark Sun II? In the market of the main city there was a guy who gave a few quests for monster body part: Fire drake skin, mind flayer ichor, stuff like that. It would great to see that in JADE.

Ars
03-18-2008, 08:30 PM
I think there should be really big cities too. There's just so many cool things possible to do in those - bandits and smugglers stalking the streets at night, and city guards looking for them, whole districts ruled by different factions, like a slum area or a gnomish district. It also gives more possibility to have quests inside the town. When there's enough houses there can be places which the player won't know about before somebody tells him about it and knows where to look, ie. bandit hideouts, evil cults, illegal gladiator pits and such, if there's just a few houses then the PC can easily locate the dubious ones, though of course you couldn't walk in just like that even if you found one by chance. Many buildings would still be just common folks' houses, with nothing too spectacular (but maybe they could be robbed). For convenience most important shops and temples could be in a market district. There could be many many facilities with some minor importance, like the aforementioned butcher, and taverns... I hope these can be easily randomized into towns once there's a generic building type made. Also some cities could have sewers!

And as a comment to the butcher idea, I don't think people like that should hand out quests, or soon you'd have a hundred quests on your list. Make it like handing outlaws to the sheriff.

But also I'm afraid that implementing all the nice things planned will take forever...

Mowca
03-19-2008, 07:21 AM
Even simple flavour texts by townsfolk would be nice to give the PC an idea of what the city is like. [...] Things could change as time goes on, with a pool of comments that can be randomly altered.

I really like your idea ! I hope it will be realized. Its much easier to include large number of NPC comments (which also vary and depens on different factors as you have mentioned) than mini quests which are so repeative. Those comments are the best way to present local culture and help to catch the feel of the locals. It also seems very interesting to see a mixture of comments and mini quests (quests on this ocasions should be really rare). Another interesting idea is to include scenes generated in a random fashion with combination of different NPCs which follow the a prepared scripts (for example :On the street :Nobleman: that litte boy stole my purse ! catch that thief - boy is running away, In Bar : Hey this meat is rotten - bar fight begins then guards come in..., riots, dog chasing a cat, children playing hide and seek and so on and so on)