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View Full Version : A place to call your own.



spectre
03-17-2008, 10:05 PM
Seems like it's a rip-off from the TES series at first, but bear with me, since I believe JADE can do better than that. Remember the stronghold qests from Baldurs Gate2? How about something that combines the best of the two worlds.

Given that JADE will be extremely vast and open-ended, I think it is more or less an imperative to give the PC a place where s/he can, at the very least, spend some time in relative safety, store items, etc. Maybe not exactly settle down, since we are roleplaying an adventurer, but something of a base of operations seems a nice enough idea.

Of course, it is just the minimal function, as it opens a potential for such a number of quest seeds, that is simply too vast to ignore.

A few ways of doing this:
One way of thinking about the character's retreat, haven, or whatever you choose to call it, is as a sort of business establishment. Of course, it may well boil down to being a source of income, but it actually could make some of the character classes come alive, specifically the merchant, but not only for them.

Imagine what does a cleric character do in ADOM, technicaly speaking he's a warrior/spellcaster hybrid, that has to sacrifice once in a little while to retain his or her class abilities. Well, the praying is there, but where's all the preaching part of the profession? I think a chapel would greatly help such a character to come alive, as opposed to, say, a paladin.

As you can see, I'd like these havens to be class-specific. So, the thief gets a guild, a bard gets a place to perform, a farmer gets a tavern, a warrior gets a stonghold, etc.

But that's limiting, in a sense that you'll always know what you get. That's why we need to expand this.
Some havens would work for more than one class, obviosly, in theory a warrior CAN run a tavern as well as the farmer, and both a wizard and the merchant can run a thieves guild effectively. The question is simply to get 'round to it.

There are nonetheless havens that work for almost any character class, so while there should be one or two for each character class, they should be available to all given certain prerequisites are met, and most importantly, whether th PC character allows for it:
For example, consider a bandit's outpost, or an illiegal gambling den. Such places are naturally fit for N to C characters. On the other side of the spectrum we have Watchmen and Sherrifs posts, which naturally tie themselves to the L characters.

So what else can we think of, beside business establishment. Another way of dealing with it, would be to wi the favor of a community (or a single NPC), so that it accepts you as your own. Whenever you drop by, you are sure that they'll greet you, and at least give you a place to stay. Examples of this would be, say a truope of wandering artists (could be a circus) whom the PC helped once, a wandering salesman, saved from the bandits, or an old sage, who'll enjoy your company from time to time.

Oh, you might notice that some of these ideas require the PC to remain stationary for some time. This is intentional, but not always desirable, and there are ways around it, say you leave 'business representatives' in your stead to run your establishment, and send yo a message should direct attention be required.

Making it all complex:
So yeah, the basic idea is o provide something more than just a place to store phat lewt, and maybe a source of income.
First of all, havens are a potential source of followers (and I do not man exclusively recruitable NPCs). It is a vast world out there, and as the NPC gains fame, skill and experience, people will notice. If you are a competent warrior, there's bound to be guys out there inspired by your deeds, seeking guidance, training, or maybe willing to 'hang around'. Will you oblige? Drive them away? Abuse them?

Second of all, havens are sources of quests. Some may be related to the place itself (like the good ole: the castle you bought came with a debt list long as your arm. It' also quite disused, since the goblins used the well as a crapper and all. You shoul know it now that it's yours, squire), but not necessarily. Since the stronghold is now the official 'establishment' of an accomplished hero, it is logical that people (farmers, kings, fathers-of-maidens-in-distress) will come to ask for help. That's a nice turn, so that instead of running 'round the towns looking for 'quests', the adventure for once will come a-knocking at your own door.

Third of all, haven is a source of trouble. It is tied to the above, but I chose to differentiate it, just for the heck of it.
Consider, even if the PC is a living saint, sometimes poop happens, and you make enemies. The logical way for them would be to strike at the PC through his or her haven.
And it's not limited to only - you did me wrong, so I'll come and siege your castle. Thieves guild might take notice of all the things in your stores, your followers might get in trouble. Yeah, there are possibilities.

As to the possible break and enter into your haven, the PC should be able to make precautions to reduce, or even eliminate the possibility, otherise it's just a PITA. Locking doors, followers, traps, remote location, all this adds to security.

So, the run-down, I'll elaborate on them some other time, and a ot of them is quite self-explanatory:

(o)Mercenary Outpost (Caravan Guards?)
(o)Bandits' Den (Cave or an abandoned keep)
(o)Watchman's post (in a city or a village)
(o)Huntsman's Cabin (in the wilderness, but reasonably close to settlements)
(o)A circus that moves from town to town
(o)A shop, anything from a smithy to achemist
(o)Thieves/Smugglers Guild
(o)Chapel/Monastery. (Cleric/Paladin/Monk specific, I guess, but I'd say high piety characters shouldn't be forbidden)
(o)A wandering merchant's wagon
(o)Tavern/Bothel. In the city, or next to a frequently used route.
(o)Keep/Castle
(o)Dojo/Fighter's Guild.
(o)Sacred Grove/Hermit's retreat.
(o)Abandoned Tower
(o)Disused Catacombs (for Necromancers, or the goth-minded)
(o)Theater/Bardic Circle

theotherhiveking
03-17-2008, 10:16 PM
Well, I think that running a tavern or something else is an overkill, just destroys the whole propose of jade.

If you want to have you 'own' place, look for a monster filled place and wipe it to the last level, and voil?, you own place.

spectre
03-17-2008, 10:50 PM
Yeah, I know. JADE is about adventuring, not pouring drinks to cheap-arse merchants. Point is, my idea of running is something along the lines of:
You set up a business, settle for a month or so, but real soon wanderlust kicks in. So you leave your tavern to your hired staff and come back only from time to time.

Think about is more as an outpost you use in-between adventures, not as a permanent settlement of any sorts. Some kind of a nexus, but shouldn't eclipse the whole purpose of the game.

Also, I specifically want to go much further beyond it being only a place to store loot.

theotherhiveking
03-17-2008, 10:53 PM
Yeah, I know. JADE is about adventuring, not pouring drinks to cheap-arse merchants. Point is, my idea of running is something along the lines of:
You set up a business, settle for a month or so, but real soon wanderlust kicks in. So you leave your tavern to your hired staff and come back only from time to time.

Think about is more as an outpost you use in-between adventures, not as a permanent settlement of any sorts. Some kind of a nexus, but shouldn't eclipse the whole purpose of the game.

Also, I specifically want to go much further beyond it being only a place to store loot.

Oh well, then is OK, I didn't get it at first.

Worst Player... ever
03-18-2008, 01:29 AM
It does sound a bit like something that Daggerfall might have tried to do, but that's a good thing. If Daggerfall worked right I would still be playing it today.

I've often thought that characters above a certain level should be more than just adventurers. They should be recognized, they should have a reputation and some sort of community that they are loyal to and treats them well. This business establishment idea would go a long way towards accomplishing that. If someone wants to run a castle, develop other NPC adventurers, or expand the borders of their fiefdom by clearing the area out and making it safe, they should be able to do that. Even in PnP, I was of the opinion that characters over level 9 shouldn't be adventuring as much. After all, if I were a king and had some guy doing all those noble deeds for me, I'd give him a title and some lands to watch over.

Plus owning a castle might lead to wars against other lords who don't like the idea of some upstart setting up shop in lands that they consider to be theirs, which opens up a whole other area of the game.

I've never imagined that these things would ever happen in a single player RPG, but if they can be added it sure would be nice.

Dougy
03-18-2008, 09:29 AM
This page (http://www.adom.de/jade/index.php3) lists some of the plans TB said he had for JADE. It's a bit old now, but it's still there and still relevant (I think). One of the notes he makes is:


Complete freedom in what you want to do (e.g. explore dungeons, work as a caravan guardian, build your own castle, conquer cities, lead a life as a simple farmer, become a shopkeeper or whatever).

Grey
03-18-2008, 12:42 PM
Third of all, haven is a source of trouble. It is tied to the above, but I chose to differentiate it, just for the heck of it.
Consider, even if the PC is a living saint, sometimes poop happens, and you make enemies. The logical way for them would be to strike at the PC through his or her haven.
And it's not limited to only - you did me wrong, so I'll come and siege your castle. Thieves guild might take notice of all the things in your stores, your followers might get in trouble. Yeah, there are possibilities.

When I read your idea for lackies that come to be recruited by you I thought it'd be cool if an assassin was hired to get into your service, and would then stab you in the back at the best opportunity (when in a corridor between him and a greater moloch for instance). A stronghold that enemies could attack would be cool, because even though you can defend yourself well you would still have a vulnerability - your home.

Overall I do like the idea of a base to call home, and your suggestions or having it as more than a loot and trophy base. Having people working for you at the base brings up some interesting options, like having a blacksmith make and improve weapons/armour for you and an alchemist that'll brew you up potions (though for both you'd need to provide plenty of coin and maybe certain rare materials, and it would take a lot of time to get good stuff). Ways of getting bases could be manifold - ascending in a guild, marrying a princess, simple conquest etc. Some other ideas for types of bases and places of operation:

-Forge
-Palace
-Ship (though I have to wonder if ADOM will have such sea travel anyway)
-Marketplace
-Crypt
-Treehouse (and I mean a proper big one like in Lothlorien)
-Arena
-Stables
-Homeless shelter (for particularly good characters - would require quite a bit of maintenance)
-Orphanage (as above - a good way to keep favour with some gods, but obviously very open to attack if you make big enemies)
-Pet sanctuary
-Hobbit hole
-Soldiers' barracks
-Assassin's Guild
-Mage's School
-Rebel hideout
-Gambler's den
-Black market
-Brewery
-Hidden temple (for dark gods - could be a way of spreading the black word in good cities, but you'd have to be careful to keep it hidden, maybe even keep moving it if the law catches on to your location)
-Farm
-Crime syndicate headquarters
-Jail (could be frequently attacked)
-Criminal hideout (where people could lay low till their reputation goes down)
-Loan shark
-Healer's

There's a lot of possibilities for these to be tied in with different alignments, rather than simply occupations. Could make proving your good/bad/balanced nature much more interesting.

spectre
03-18-2008, 01:17 PM
Well, if you are an Evil guy and surround yourself with like-minded individuals, backstabbing (literal) should be a cause for concern. So yeah, I like this one very much.
I can imagine the player using Know Alignment to sift through possible followers (-:

Some good ideas about possible bases. Some overlap with mine (Crime syndicate base = Thieves guild in my book, although there may be a difference in alignment they support). Particularily I like the idea of a Ship, cause it makes for lots and lots of possiblities. (And I don't think sea battles are that hard to code, especially if it is reduced just to the boarding part)

I like the suggestion that havens should be upgradeable. Nothing dramatic, of course, and all within reason (like expand shop space, add a proper (which can sacrifice and ID items) altar in the chapel instead of just the idol) etc.

Grey
03-18-2008, 05:32 PM
Crime syndicate base = Thieves guild in my book, although there may be a difference in alignment they support

I disagree - there's a hell of a lot more to organised crime than thievery. Drugs, smuggling, extortion, murder, blackmail, kidnapping, slave trading, etc. In more lawful cities vices like alcohol, gambling and prostitution would be illegal, so the local crime den would be a haven for these too. The crime den might actually be full of good people that are opposed to thievery, but want a free place to enjoy the things that the law prohibits. Or it could be full of hardened criminals who look down on petty thieves. Or equally it could be run by rich businessmen that bribe politicians to get what they want and resort to hired muscle when necessary. Crime comes in many delightful flavours.

spectre
03-19-2008, 12:35 AM
Hmmm, semantics? Seems that it all depends on how you look at it. I always believed thieves guilds cater for all sorts of organized crime, not just break&enter and petty pickpocketing. Whoring, gambling, smuggling etc. comes with the business, and basically depends on what's the organization's profile, as well as the demand in the local area. For me it all comes from the same bag.

To be honest, all this 'looking down upon petty criminals' seem awfully like a pitiful attempt at whitewashing. We ain't no common crooks here ma'am. We're serious businessmen.

Anyways, I see no point in pondering about this one too much, since it's essentially the same thing that we want, an organization that makes money by dealing in the illiegal (your definition may vary), non?

Grey
03-19-2008, 01:16 AM
Anyways, I see no point in pondering about this one too much, since it's essentially the same thing that we want, an organization that makes money by dealing in the illiegal (your definition may vary), non?

Semantics indeed - if that's what you mean by thieves guild then we're talking the same thing. Just wanted to be clear that there are crime bases not centred around thievery. In real medieval times it's hard to imagine any place called a thieves guild to be honest - such dark dens would I guess normally be rooms at the back of or underneath legitimate businesses likes pubs and restaurants.

Y'know, it'd be cool as a particularly powerful and evil character to have your own dungeon, complete with random spawning monsters etc. Maybe even a moat of chaos pirahnas around your main base on the bottom level :)

spectre
03-20-2008, 12:24 AM
That's a nice idea, and I don't think it's even beyond the scope of what ADOM offers.
It's actually pretty basic, all you need is a few pickaxes, wands of trap and door creation, and you can have a DIY evil dungeon. Add a few undead servants for flavor.
(obviosly, the level needs to be empty to do it in the first place. Maybe add a spell to collapse tiles, mkaing them diggable? That's probably more trouble than it's worth.)

Then, add some adventureres attempting break and enter every now and then, and you have a nice Dungeon Keeper-like experience. With some additional scripts, adding followers (hire a merchant to set up a shop, priest for a chapel, etc.) and it may turn out to be quite entertaining.

Sradac
03-20-2008, 12:28 AM
Anyone ever played Dungeon Keeper 1 or 2? I want an evil dungeon like that lol...Thye need to make a dungeon keeper 3 some day. Ya know if dwarf fortress can do what it does im sure if I actually understood how to make a roguelike i could make a kickass dungeon keeper roguelike.