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rmcin329
03-19-2008, 10:48 PM
I think there should be some class restrictions implemented into the game. For example, wizards shouldn't be able to run around in things like chain mail or plate mail. They should stay limited to things a bit more suited to their class, like robes and leather armor. I also hate seeing win posts with a wizard running around with say a spear and a shield. A few wizards might use swords but most would be using staffs or pherhaps a dagger/knife, but not a shield and a spear. Also limit the actual number of spells a warrior/fighter can learn. Don't just make casting/learning them harder. Say don't let them learn ball spells or improved fireball, maybe let them have heal light wounds and a couple other weak ones.

theotherhiveking
03-19-2008, 11:07 PM
HELL NO!

FREEDOM!

Whats wrong with a wizard wearing a spear?


If a wizard is wearing a spear, that means that he has been training with it, in the same way that a warrior can learn magic if he practices.

Ars
03-19-2008, 11:50 PM
Yeah, I'm a wizard and my dagger just got eaten by a rust monster. Anyhow, I refuse to use the spear and shield lying next to me... It's against my professional ethics. After all, it is physically impossible to cast spells while holding a piece of wood with some metal at its point.

Right?

Sradac
03-20-2008, 12:19 AM
Im all about freedom. I mean, instead of seeming them as the stereotypical "Wizards" you hear in fairy tales and merlin and all that crap with pointy hats with stars all over their robes and wands with crystals on them, lets think outside the box, eh? A wizard with a spear, well maybe he's from some kind of place where they use spears? I mean with that thinking you might as well say, a wizard isnt allowed to fish with a spear even though many primitive villages do it because he isnt allowed to fight with one. Call your wizard a shaman if he uses a spear. If he uses a sword and armor call him a battle mage. I for one am sick of the cookie cutter archetypes everyone goes by, Even JRR knew what was up Gandalf used a sword from time to time nothing wrong with that at all. I mean, Everyone thinks of priests and clerics as being these plate mail wearing battle casters because D&D tells us they are, but why should theybe any different than wizards? They're still casting all these hugely powerful spells but its ok for them to have plate armor an ebony heume a tower shield and a huge flail becaues they're "called" something other than a wizard. If we restrict wizards, restrict everyone. Dont let priests wear armor. Dont let healers use weapons. Dont let archers use anything other than bows. Dont let thieves use anything other than short swords and daggers. Dont let Paladins attack anything that isnt already hostile, so much for hunting for food in the wilderness. Dont let rangers go in cities. No restrictions thats what I say.

Mad Minstrel
03-20-2008, 12:28 AM
I'm against "hard" restrictions, like wizards not allowed to wear an armor. However I think casting spells in things like full plate mail should be harder/slower (but not impossible). Casting spells with both hands free (not holding anything) should be faster (take less energy) and maybe give a bit better results. Casting spells while holding items in hands (for example weapon and shield) should be slower / less effective. The heavier the items, the bigger penalty.

spectre
03-20-2008, 12:45 AM
Notice how D&D games (the most notorious for the gear restrictions) have armor spells, so that the Mage is not toally screwed in melee.
If we want that in JADE, some protective spells have to go in.

Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't JADE supposed to be skill-based, with no classes (or reducing their importance a lot at least?)

Anyways, one good solution IMO would be some kind of an armor wearing skill. This would reflect that a normal human has to get used to wearing all that iron. It still protects as it should, but it will tire you quickly.
So, armors provide PV as normal without the skill, but wtih penalties to DV and energy costs (severity may be based on weight). Increase the skill, and the penalties go away.

Dougy
03-20-2008, 02:12 AM
Well, there's plenty of things that are seemingly out of place. When talking about being "physically impossible" to cast spells when wearing/carrying something, I think it's physically impossible to cast a spell at all. Lets not try to make the game less playable.

Sradac
03-20-2008, 02:16 AM
yep i agree you really can not apply very much "realism" to a roguelike game unless you're going for a zombie survival one ( http://modules.t-o-m-e.net/module.php?id=64 This one rocks its way different! ) i say let The Creator make up his own list of rules and laws for his creation...after all, he is The God above All Gods.

Plausible
03-20-2008, 02:54 AM
I'm with the Mad Minstrel here.

It's like the dude playing the guitar with his feet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9-7MKvh_a0).

Harder, but not impossible!

I agree that if I play a 'human', I'm not gonna breathe underwater or fly just like that. But I disagree that I could never, ever, on principle, figure out how to do simple magic just because I was trained as an archer.

The armour/spellcasting dilemma should be due to the armour, not due to the guy inside it. So if the armour says "-10" but the guy inside is so good he says "+20" you still get +10. Otherwise it's like you're good at something but you don't have the right certificate so they don't let you - sucks.

Sradac
03-20-2008, 04:37 AM
what im seeing here is alot of talk about armor decreasing skills while wearing it for casting, or making it harder making checks higher, etc. But we have no idea how magic will be handled in JADE yet, if its like ADOM then the only thing armor could do is...making casting take more energy, maybe increase the PP cost as there is no chance for spell failure in adom. But if spellcasting has actualy skills attatched to it theni could see alot of this being possible. But it also opens up alot of coding thatd be needed. Limit spellcasting while in armor, might as well limit stealth too, limit speed, fat chance of dodging an attack in all that armor. Sometimes hard restrictions are good, as none of that will have to be worried about if its decided that thieves and mages cant wear heavy armor. im not saying im for it, it just sounds like a lot of work just for a little bit of balance. Limit swimming in heavy armor. I think wearing heavy armor should just put a flat penalty to all skill spell and ability checks UNTIL you become more skilled in it, each point in it just like a weapon or shields should lower the penalty, like the duel weapons skill does but increaes heavy armor through use. Maybe eventually put up benefits too when you become very good with your armor. This could apply to all types of armors, medium , light, and even un-armored. yeah this is starting to sound kinda morrowind-ish but its just a possibility.

Macros
03-20-2008, 08:03 AM
I'm for small restrictions. As for me, it's a bit weird that mage wearing moloch armor and wielding powerful two handed sword(bigger than mage itself!) is as good at spellcasting as mage in robe and wielding staff. I agree with Plausible and Mad Minstrel - make it harder. More energy points for spell casting in heavy armour, and some bonuses from casting with both hands free(or while wielding staff) sounds very reasonable.

spectre
03-20-2008, 11:58 AM
I think there's a prevelent stereotype running aound about how magic is worked - mumbling arcane formulas and a lot of arm waving. I'll say this: even the notorious D&D has gotten way beyond that. Perhaps in ADOM and JADE spelcasting is all about inwkoing an incantation, and no gesturing at all. (Look at how it's handled there: -foo- screams words of magic) Heavy armor doesn't prevent that.

Ars
03-20-2008, 03:45 PM
A staff shouldn't help casting unless it's a magic staff... Imagine a wizard being more powerful after picking up a random twig?

It was good in ADOM, only thing that might be good to change that spells like burning hands cannot be cast unless you have a free hand. Though when wielding a two-hander you could use it still, it's easy to temporarily hold the weapon in just one hand temporarily.

Maybe simpler items like robes and clothes could hold magical properties.

Macros
03-20-2008, 06:09 PM
A staff shouldn't help casting unless it's a magic staff... Imagine a wizard being more powerful after picking up a random twig?

Hmm you're right here, mages should be getting some benefits from wielding enchanted staffes. And skilled mage would be able to enchant staff(by spell or ability).


Perhaps in ADOM and JADE spelcasting is all about inwkoing an incantation, and no gesturing at all.

Maybe you're right here, but on the other hand - maybe not. Despite the fact that casting spells doesn't require gesturing, it still requires concentration. Try to focus on something while wearing stuff 50 times more heavy than you.:)

Besides that, wizards in Adom are already really powerful, much stronger than other classes IMO. Nerfing them a bit, would restore ingame balance between classes, and I think that playing as classic(ie. with robe and staff/free hands) wizard is much more climatic than playing as uber-tank wizard.

Grey
03-20-2008, 07:19 PM
I have to agree with many of the important points raised here:
-Old stereotypes of wizards and fighters are boring - players should be able to break outside the box
-ADOM is not DnD, and need not abide by its restrictions
-Spellcasting in ADOM may not require much movement. If you can swing a sword and shoot arrows in heavy plate, why not cast a spell?

I always liked how ADOM let any character do almost everything with enough time and effort - it was just far more difficult with some. JADE should be the same.

I do agree with having an armour skill though, since it makes sense that warriors can use armour more effectively than wizards and bards.

Epythic
03-25-2008, 11:13 AM
Besides that, wizards in Adom are already really powerful, much stronger than other classes IMO. Nerfing them a bit, would restore ingame balance between classes, and I think that playing as classic(ie. with robe and staff/free hands) wizard is much more climatic than playing as uber-tank wizard.

Remember: its magic. its powerful.

You are free to play a free-hands wizard. I always preferred a spear or a nice sword.

kapsi
06-04-2008, 01:06 AM
I think there should be some class restrictions implemented into the game. For example, wizards shouldn't be able to run around in things like chain mail or plate mail. They should stay limited to things a bit more suited to their class, like robes and leather armor. I also hate seeing win posts with a wizard running around with say a spear and a shield. A few wizards might use swords but most would be using staffs or pherhaps a dagger/knife, but not a shield and a spear. Also limit the actual number of spells a warrior/fighter can learn. Don't just make casting/learning them harder. Say don't let them learn ball spells or improved fireball, maybe let them have heal light wounds and a couple other weak ones.
I like this idea. But maybe instead of restrictions there should be penatlies. It's odd if a wizard can deal same damage with a sword as a barbarian with same strength.

FantomFang
06-04-2008, 05:32 AM
Not really. It just means he's worked really hard at it, compared to the barbarian, to whom it comes more naturally.

Speaking of hard restrictions, its been a LONG time since they've had those in D&D, definitely gotta go back an edition (i played 3rd to death). In 3rd edition, all it did was give you a spellcasting failure % based on how easily you can make the arcane gestures while wearing armor. For example, a chain shirt affected you much, much less than a suit of Fullplate. This seems like something that could make a similar translation to JADE, if TB's interpretation of magic involves more than the invocations of power. And there should certainly be no weapon restrictions, because it makes no sense, as other have stated before. I remember playing several classes in the aforementioned system that actually have special abilities revolving around the skill they gain using armor, reducing the penalties associated with its use with arcane magic.

On the whole cleric thing, that's just the difference in magic =p Archetypical Clerical magic are sort of like prayers to the gods, while arcane magic is more like straight from the elements, or the world, itself in a way. In any case, I stand by "hard restrictions bad, soft restrictions good".

I think a balancing act between armor weight would be useful in all aspects. Like similar to D&D, to wear heavier armor and gain the heavier protection, you have to sacrifice some of your mobility. It makes sense to me, and would be awesome (only if its not a pain to code, ofc!)

kapsi
06-04-2008, 04:33 PM
Not really. It just means he's worked really hard at it, compared to the barbarian, to whom it comes more naturally.
By that logic the barbarian should use any spell if he works gets his mana/int high.
I like mindcrafters in ADOM because they're unique and since they can't learn spells they have to stick to their abilities. IMO if any class could learn that it wouldn't be so cool.

Nezur
06-04-2008, 05:25 PM
By that logic the barbarian should use any spell if he works gets his mana/int high.

Yes, I think the barbarian should be able to make use of magic with the right stat values. I think nearly every character ability should be derived from attributes in a way or another.



I like mindcrafters in ADOM because they're unique and since they can't learn spells they have to stick to their abilities. IMO if any class could learn that it wouldn't be so cool.

I think that talent for mindcrafting is something that you born with. Some may just be much better at it than others.

Speaking of class restrictions... This is how I would implement the basic player character in my own roguelike (which I hope to whip up at some point):

Basic skills - every character has them
Race - determines base attributes and racial abilities and maybe some racial skills
Training - wizard, fighter, monk etc. training. Determines nearly all of the initial skills and modifies starting attributes. Training does not equal class
Attribute adjustments - the changes that the player made at the character creation (max change ~20% per stat, pool-based). Represent some of the choices the character made in regard to attribute training.
Talents- the abilities you were born with. Can only be chosen at creation. Mindcraft, high mobility, expectional -stat- and so on (each talent costs a (highly) varying amount of points). Affect the initial abilities quite a lot

No levels, no classes, no real restrictions. Skill and attribute based character development.

reich
06-04-2008, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by spectre
Perhaps in ADOM and JADE spelcasting is all about inwkoing an incantation, and no gesturing at all.

I'd take this further. Using magic as purely an act of will. No gestures, no formulas - that's Harry Potter fare. A person invokes a magical effect because he/she is conncted to the mystic energy that flows through everything. Reliance on moves and strange syllabes makes magic too automatic/mechanical.
That's why I always thougt the spell 'Silence' from classic AD&D (which makes spellcasting impossible) made no sense.

Laukku
06-04-2008, 08:46 PM
Personally I imagine bolt spells requiring only a simple arm movement at the aproppriate direction, whatever held in hands doesn't matter. As for spells like Bless, I think it would be easy to release a single finger and touch someone with it.

SixtySixPixiStix
06-06-2008, 07:15 PM
I think there should be some class restrictions implemented into the game. For example, wizards shouldn't be able to run around in things like chain mail or plate mail. They should stay limited to things a bit more suited to their class, like robes and leather armor. I also hate seeing win posts with a wizard running around with say a spear and a shield. A few wizards might use swords but most would be using staffs or pherhaps a dagger/knife, but not a shield and a spear. Also limit the actual number of spells a warrior/fighter can learn. Don't just make casting/learning them harder. Say don't let them learn ball spells or improved fireball, maybe let them have heal light wounds and a couple other weak ones.

Shame shame shame.

What's wrong with the creative use of your environment?

That's what this game is!

Pustka
06-10-2008, 10:20 AM
Besides that, wizards in Adom are already really powerful, much stronger than other classes IMO. Nerfing them a bit, would restore ingame balance between classes, and I think that playing as classic(ie. with robe and staff/free hands) wizard is much more climatic than playing as uber-tank wizard.

well if memory serves class in adom weren't ment to be balanced in the first place. and form my experience with other games - theres no fun in balanced classes :cool:

Petra
06-14-2008, 01:16 AM
...

No restrictions. I want my mages wearing plate and I want my mindcasters wielding greatswords and I want my thieves toting battle axes.

Narvius
06-14-2008, 02:14 PM
I want my mages being able to win naked.

PeanutGod
06-16-2008, 04:28 PM
Who says they can't win naked?

Grey
06-16-2008, 06:00 PM
Everyone knows wizards have to wear a pointy hat.

Ars
06-16-2008, 06:17 PM
I want females to be restricted to wearing chainmail bikinis.

reich
06-16-2008, 09:53 PM
I want to be able to wear plate armour on chain mail on a leather jacket. Plus the chainmail bra for females.

Narvius
06-16-2008, 09:58 PM
And wearing gloves on your head, boots on the hands and shooting daggers with the bow.

reich
06-17-2008, 11:26 AM
And wearing gloves on your head, boots on the hands and shooting daggers with the bow.

Cheaters on the Diablo battle.net used to do similar things to exploit the best boosts to stats. Wearing staffs on the head, rings for boots etc :rolleyes:

Narvius
06-30-2008, 09:20 AM
Lol. That was a joke, but I like that shooting daggers idea =D But maybe with the crossbow only?

Soirana
07-03-2008, 10:12 AM
iirc, rings of regeneration work very well in missile slot.

Silfir
07-03-2008, 02:21 PM
What about a heap of 19 rings of regeneration? Do they work all at the same time in the missile slot?

Soirana
07-04-2008, 12:42 PM
no 19 rings don't give 19hp per turn, but to my limited experiments two or morerings actually increase chance of getting two hit points per turn. Can be just mine misperception.

Silfir
07-04-2008, 04:06 PM
Well - there is no limit to the amount of rings you can get into the slot... I want to see someone posting a screenshot of a guy wearing 1337 rings of regeneration :)