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Elone
03-27-2009, 01:10 AM
One of my dreams was that someday any person will be able to learn anything with some work.


some classes could have different pros/cons with different weapons

Wizards can reach grand masteries too, regardless of the time it takes. I wished this gap between classes to be lessened even further, not increased! Surely all these past characters had a profession when they started in Drakalor Chain, and they sadly had to stick to it forever. Let's say you start a farmer with 5 learning. By the end of the game, you can have a 20x bigger learning score, but his booklearning skills are still in quite a sad state. Why? Why is such a smart character unable to finally understand a book he couldnt understand at 5 learning? Because of his past life? Does he have a complex? I very strongly disagree with this idea.

There is a plenty of ways to fix this issue from Adom.

Make bookreading improve with Learning, not change with class.
Same with other class specific traits, it should matter what you've been at the time you entered the game, but it should also equally (if not more) matter what you decided to do after you started playing.

Make smithing speed improve with the smithing skill.
Similar with other skills. IRL, the more you do something, the better you get at it. Assassin could learn to pick a good herb, why not? What, if he didnt start out with the skill, he cant gain the skill with lots of trial and error? If he doesnt start with herbalism (or learns it from a preset NPC), he'll be able to pick 1000 herbs and still wont learn how to do it.
(the jade demo had a diplomacy skill. when you talk to a few people and make stupid mistakes and lose advantage over them, you'll learn to avoid those mistakes no matter what kind of troll you are, a river troll, a cabbage troll, a forum troll, or a mountain troll.)

Make the required weaponmarks same for any class, but make fighting characters start out with pregained levels in some/all of them.
This last line may seem like it's the same thing, but it's not. Because once the wizard does catch up with a fighter's pregained weapon skill, he can continue training as any fighter would from there on.

All these examples could make you think "If an elf spent 300 years under one class, wouldnt it be hard for him to switch to another one?" I say not, if an elf gained only 15 learning in his 300 years, and reached 99 learning in a matter of 30-60 days, then they can surely find a way to switch to another class in 30-60 days too? Their initial class would still, indeed, determine their starting stats and equipment.

The progress of player's characters towards the other classes should not be slowed down or restricted in any way - they would only have more to catch up with, but once they caught up, they could continue learning from there on, just as any other class could.

JellySlayer
03-27-2009, 05:24 AM
It seems to me that the effect of this would be to reduce the variety in classes. I mean, why would you ever pick a class like a wizard, when you can just start the game as a barbarian to get through the early parts, then switch to magic later on once you have more spells and no longer have the disadvantages of the wizard's frailty? While I agree with you in principle that things would work this way in the real world, from a gameplay point of view, I think it would really homogenize things too much.

Instead, I'll take the opposite argument: why should an orc EVER be able to get as much learning as an elf? Or a hurthling be as strong as a troll? Wouldn't it make more sense for races to have hard upper limits on their stats (eg. potential scores can't increase), rather than trying to explain how a character could get 15 learning in 300 years and then get up to 99 in 30 days?

Elone
03-27-2009, 06:00 AM
I played a number of games where you'd start out a character who could learn just about anything, without having to even choose a class. It was quite interesting. If you wore armour, you'd gain defense bonuses but magical penalties. If you wore an enchanted robe, you'd get some bonuses to magic, but give up on heavy armour. If you attacked monsters with magic, your magic skills would be trained. If you attacked with arrows, missile attack would get trained. It took a lot of time to orient yourself into any class direction, so you had to choose what you'd like the most.

It doesnt have to be same in Adom/Jade, because it's not the same game. But I'd enjoy the freedom.

Races are another matter. In fact, they could be the key to avoiding the homogenisation. You pick a race like an orc... then you can specialise in wizardry, but will still be at disadvantage because of lack of wizard's stats. Or pick a hurtling, and just accept the fact that his muscles will never grow as big as that of a troll. This is, again, closer to the real world, but still makes for a good gameplay (if that's what you wanted). Soooo what would a Troll's appearance limit be?

Come to think of it, someone commented on a 99Ap troll in another topic.

sgeos
03-27-2009, 06:12 AM
I tend to prefer classless games where characters start inclined toward one thing or another, but you can do what you want with them. Having said that, a game is a game. Some people forget that when they talk about realism. The whole point of class system is that it restricts certain options for certain characters. The end result should make things less munchkin and more interesting.

Elone
03-27-2009, 06:36 AM
I'm not talking about reality here, but I played classless RPGs and they were really quite fun. I greatly oppose realism which takes away from fun.

> I tend to prefer classless games where characters start inclined toward one thing or another, but you can do what you want with them.



Make the required weaponmarks same for any class, but make fighting characters start out with pregained levels in some/all of them.
[That's one example out of many.]


So we agree here.

sgeos
03-27-2009, 06:58 AM
We agree on what we prefer, but I could see giving mark penalties to certain classes. It depends on the game you are trying to make.

I could see giving characters different learning rates for different skills. This way an archer would excel at bows, but could do anything else given enough time. It would probably make sense to start the characters close to blank slate in this case.

Elone
03-27-2009, 08:39 AM
That's what already exists in Adom. Let's take the weapon skills. Let's say that a hurtling archer starts with 4 levels in thrown rocks. Now lets say that another fighter class starts with 0 in thrown rocks. Tell me, if you can, what stops you from catching up with that 4th weapon level... and once you caught up with it, how are you different from this archer? You arent, you get the same weaponskill bonuses. Furthermore, once a fighter and an archer reach the 4th level in thrown rocks, wont they progress equally quickly from there on, markwise? That's how it should be with nonfighter classes too. They put the same effort into it, and get the same gain. Wizards need double the marks... Explain why, please. Are they all born with a physical defect or something? Are their brains weighing them down? Are they not all young men and women who start their adventuring at about the same (race-relative) age? Why, why the difference? For gameplay?

Adom setting weighs towards the sword/magic realism. We dont play a blue hedgehog or an italian plumber, we play a serious character who fights and struggles for his life. To hell with realism, why dont Adom characters eat mushrooms and grow double their size from it, because that would be a great gameplay too?

Evil Knievel
03-27-2009, 10:58 AM
Hmm, interesting topic. Let's see what I have to contribute:

I'd agree that realism is not the matter. However, we are almost unable (or don#t try) to back up our opinions without referring to realism, although the fun is important, since what we like or not is debateable. Although I see, that we all (or almost) would like different characters profiles, but maximum flexibility in shaping them - seemingly a contradiction.

Btw, the most unrealistic thing in these games is the enourmous learning rate during a game, and also it is the thing making these games fun from the beginning. It almost defines single player roguelikes and RPGs.

I propose another, maybe counter-fun constraint on this learning rate, that would make the game more difficult. I think, it would be adequate to (maybe very slowly and not completely) unlearn things not used - and I know, in the time frame of the game, this isn't realistic at all. However, then you get individually shaped characters, that are able to do, what they like most, but they won't be so good at other things. (also, this would implicitly punish time consuming scumming)
There are lots of models for implementing this, but I would not want to invent too detailed things here, since I already smell that my proposal will be countered heavily.

Another aspect is, that we do not like a character being able to do everything, but on the other hand, such a character is very interesting, since he can react differently and appropriatly to any situation. That's why the L50 characters are so powerful. But think a L50 wizard (shaped to be wizard char) that is NOT able to shoot out a molochs eyes (if a moloch has eyes) with his superbow but is too mediocre in it, so he cannot hurt it? Less options, less power, less versatility in gameplay - but also less homogeneity.

Elone
03-27-2009, 12:43 PM
Different character profiles, but we shape the characters? We can shape our characters into anything, given enough freedom. Giving premade profiles to characters in form of classes would restrict freedom.

Enormous learning rate? It's not unrealistic. When you want to learn something IRL, you talk to other people. Most modern roguelikes are designed with internet in mind. It isnt an individual trying to figure something out, it's hundreds of them. The number of features, and their deeply hidden natures are found by different people, and spread to all others. If Adom had a singleplayer-easy gameplay, all of us wouldnt have anything to talk about. No, instead, we're still finding out new things in a such an old game, because it was full of things to learn. Adom was very fun in the beginning too, and not very discouraging. If your experience differs, I'm glad that you dealt with it over time.

Unlearning is silly. If you dont want to use a skill, dont use it. If you really dont want a skill, dont learn it. There could be a potion or scroll of unlearning, or an NPC, but not something that happens in the background whether the player wants it or not. Scumming was heavily discussed in Adom threads, and people came to conclusion that there are people who scum, and there are people who dont scum, and they hate each other, but they both continue to exist and enjoy what they do. Why not? A game could be made enjoyable for both scummers and non scummers. Adom was. What, does the dragongold seem like something that could be an accidental bug? An accidentally (and conveniently) planted *2 piece into the correct spot in the dragon gold drop formula?

> Another aspect is, that we do not like a character being able to do everything

We? That's a pretty bold statement.

> to shoot out a molochs eyes

Moloch has no eyes. Have you ever seen a moloch with eyes, hmm? Well?

> Less options, less power, less versatility in gameplay - but also less homogeneity.

Sounds like a very very poor tradeoff to me. Analogous to sitting into a new type of car which is harder to drive, weaker in all aspects, and with less features than other cars, but the manufacturer tells you that its main advantage is that it's unlike any other car you've seen before.

sgeos
03-27-2009, 01:30 PM
Aptitude. Some people are better at learning certain things than others. But yes, it is for gameplay. Pick what you want to excel at. If you want to learn other things, grind. FWIW, this is only vaguely different from a game that has character profiles that grant bonuses and penalties.

Evil Knievel
03-27-2009, 02:47 PM
Hey Elone,
I expected a harsh wind, but nothing like that. I wanted to propose some idea, that crossed my mind when reading the thread, and a little analysis of what comes with it. I really had no argument in mind.
I just saw, however, that if you want characters with different profiles and no classes, then you need to do something to hinder every game ending up in the same skill configuration that turned out to be best. Of course, players could restrict themselves to behaving suboptimal, but what's the point of all that then? And of course, a game could be so perfectly balanced that there is no such thing as optimal or suboptimal.

Maybe there was some misunderstanding as well..



Enormous learning rate? It's not unrealistic. ...

E.g. here, what I maybe not very clearly directed at was not the learning rate of the player, but the one of the character, which is pretty ridiculous. From lvl1 normal guy to lvl50 almost godlike in 90 days by training?



[FONT=Courier New]Unlearning is silly. If you dont want to use a skill, dont use it. If you really dont want a skill, dont learn it. There could be a potion or scroll of unlearning, or an NPC, but not something that happens in the background whether the player wants it or not.

I see, that you don't like it, but that was exactly my point. The player should choose what he wants to be proficient in. Instead of just getting a Jack of all trades.



... and they hate each other, but they both continue to exist and enjoy what they do. Why not?


I don't hate anyone. Neither had I in mind to advocate for or against anything. It is more a fact than an argument.



We? That's a pretty bold statement.

Who is we? No, probably 'want' was not the correct term. But it is what we (most of us) direct our game play way at, isn't it?



Sounds like a very very poor tradeoff to me. Analogous to sitting into a new type of car which is harder to drive, weaker in all aspects, and with less features than other cars, but the manufacturer tells you that its main advantage is that it's unlike any other car you've seen before.

Yeah, might be right, but the issue in question (as I perceive it) is adressed by that car, freeing us of certain disadvantages of the old cars. It does bring new disadvantages, but they could be worked on as well. So, that's all to this from my side.

Epythic
03-27-2009, 04:16 PM
Interesting topic.

I absolutely agree that classes should not matter that much. I think it should just be some kind of training. Why have classes at all? We are all adventurers, arent we?

Let the player pick two or three "classes" (<--need new word here) when the game begins. This adjusts his initial skills, maybe gives him some special abilities. Then, later in the game, allow the PC to improve his skills/abilities or get new ones by doing something.

Want to walk? Need feet (get ability; get for free at char generation)
Want to get faster? Run a lot.
Want to cast spells? Read a book (= get ability), then practice practice practice (= train it; do sth about your failure rates).
Want to cast more powerful spells? Practice the less powerful spells, then read a more complicated book, and practice.
Want to use a sword? Find one (= get ability), then practice, practice. Extra points if you find a teacher.

I certainly want my character to be able to do everything. No wait, let me repeat that: EVERYTHING. Given enough time.

Ok, one exception here: the race. Trolls *are* huge and have small brains, so it should be hard for them to be stealthy and to learn new things. Drakelings have this temperature problem, and so on.

sgeos
03-27-2009, 04:24 PM
Keep in mind that classes are sort of like system imposed "challenge games".

Elone
03-27-2009, 11:55 PM
@ Epythic

The post got me thinking. What I've been aiming at, races should be more restrictive and classes should be less restrictive (or nonexistent). Think. It's the other way around in Adom.

I really like the idea of being able to learn everything! THEN if I dont want all of it, I can specialise myself and NOT learn a skill I dont want.

@ Evil

I know that this may have seemed like an argument, but rest assured I dont feel like I'm in mid of one. There's no negative energy in my words. I like fiery discussions which give a challenge to my discussion opposites. They get motivated to come back at me with even better arguments in return, which is (in case of ideas) almost always good. Sometimes they fail at that, but it's always worth a try. I'd try to reply to your post now, but it's hard to quote everything, and still keep it reasonably easy format-wise.

@ sgeos

If you want to learn other things, grind? Yes, but.
1. As I said, everyone should have the same learning potential. Wizards arent defected that they need double the marks or something. I'll grind to reach the level of a swordsman, but then we're equal, and from there on I want to continue just like him.
2. As I said, not even 1000 picked herbs will give you the skill of Herbalism if you didnt have it initially or from a NPC. I wouldnt mind grinding for it if I really needed it, but not getting the skill even after 100 or 1000 picked herbs is ridiculous.
3. As I said, races should provide more limits than classes, and not the other way around.
4. Classes are quite a restrictive challenge, but restriction is reserved for those who already know enough about the game. When you play Adom and you ask if you should try a nonscumming game, you are rather often told to get your first win in any way you can.. and only think about no-scum game later.

RndmNumGenerator
03-28-2009, 02:35 AM
Instead of making it so all classes are equally good, I think it would be good if different classes(and races) had set limits. For example, a Trollish Figher would have a maximum strength of 85, and regardless of how many Potions of Strength he found after reaching 85, it would never go over 85. A Grey Elven Wizard would have a maximum strength of 55. If both the Troll and the Elf had a Strength of 45, they would fight equally well, but the grey elf would never be able to surpass the troll if the troll traisn as hard as the elf.

sgeos
03-28-2009, 06:16 AM
1. As I said, everyone should have the same learning potential. Wizards arent defected that they need double the marks or something. I'll grind to reach the level of a swordsman, but then we're equal, and from there on I want to continue just like him.
FWIW, I do prefer systems where the limits are not based on class, but on character. Ie, I might start a wizard who has an aptitude for swords. This character will train more effectively with swords than your average character. Also, I like the idea of wide open learning. I also like the idea of a lifespan. Ie, you *could* learn everything, but you won't live that long. In that case, shorter lived races would learn faster, but longer lived races would ultimately learn more in the long run.


2. As I said, not even 1000 picked herbs will give you the skill of Herbalism if you didnt have it initially or from a NPC. I wouldnt mind grinding for it if I really needed it, but not getting the skill even after 100 or 1000 picked herbs is ridiculous.
In this particular case, I disagree. Practice makes permanent, not perfect. If you don't know what you are doing, and you keep ripping herbs out of the ground, you won't get better at tending herbs if you continue your misguided behavior.


3. As I said, races should provide more limits than classes, and not the other way around.
Basically agree. I could see learning class skills at the normal rate/cost and non-class skills at double that.


4. Classes are quite a restrictive challenge, but restriction is reserved for those who already know enough about the game.
Some classes are easier/simpler than others. This is intentional.

Sradac
03-30-2009, 05:32 PM
As much as I agree with you elone, im just worried it would dilute the point of a class and become something more along the lines of morrowind or oblivion where you have a character thats a master swordsman running around in huge ebony plate armor thats able to cast the most powerful spells in the game, being literally a tank able to destroy entire groups of enemies without taking a scratch. Course most people that play roguelikes arent as much of maximists as people that play mainstream games like oblivion, it can still happen.
I know some people dont like the idea of skills decaying but I do. If you start the game as a swordsman and are pretty adept with your blade but you decide to pursue arcane arts and focus on your spells for a long time only using your blade in emergency situations, i believe ignoring your martial skills for a few months to read books and cast cantrips you wouldnt be at the point you were starting your career.
Im a good example of this IRL, I took 10 years of tae kwon do and won several tournaments, but other parts of my life took over having to work all the time and go to school, i stopped going to class and my skills have suffered. I still remember everything I learned, but my body does not. Muscle memory is a large part of martial arts and if you neglect to practice you wont be as flexible, your body wont be able to pull off those kicks and take downs the way it used to.
Maybe skill "decay" is a bit harsh, maybe a penalty for going X amount of weeks without using a skill. your skill is still at the same level but its not as effective as it was, if you decide to take up that skill again it wont take long to get back to where you were. That way you cant run around blasting everything with fireballs then when you finally run out of mana whip out your jagged blade of mourning and get a crit hit for 500 dmg. just my idea.

sgeos
03-30-2009, 05:48 PM
For a game to be rewarding, you need to struggle through it. A lot of people are turned off when you present struggles they are not familiar with. Ie, they don't want to have to leave their safe haven and think in new ways.

Laukku
03-30-2009, 07:38 PM
Wasn't JADE going to be classless? I remember TB saying that there will be different guilds one can join instead.

sgeos
03-31-2009, 01:53 AM
It sounds a fair bit like Omega. Was ADOM inspired by Omega?

BenMathiesen
04-10-2009, 11:26 AM
Personally, one of the attractive points about ADOM for me is that it strikes an excellent balance between fully classless systems (like Oblivion or Omega) and highly restrictive class systems (like Angband).

Classes offer many advantages: they provide unique abilities and challenges, improve the replayability of the game, make it easy to leap right in by relieving some of the management burden, and provide a useful hook for role-playing. (Yes, I role-play even in single-player games. I like to make decisions in ADOM from the point of view of the character, and another shining point of ADOM is that there are several meaningful decisions to be made.)

On the other hand, it adds a lot to the game to know that the classes are not totally restrictive. If my Fighter was born under the Salamander and really wants to learn magic, it is possible--but difficult. It is somewhat easier for a merchant, and even easier for a bard. This is as it should be. In principle, all skills and abilities in the game are open to all characters, with a few rare exceptions (Mindcrafters and Barbarians learning magic, advanced Necromancy).

I think some of the dissatisfaction being expressed in this thread stems from the lack of opportunity in ADOM. Herbalism can be learned from Guth'alak. If characters could learn herbalism just by grinding, they would have no strong motivation to go on the quest. Some skills can't be learned at all in the Drakalor chain except by wishing (and some not even then), but it's a small setting. If teachers exist for every skill in Jade, somewhere in the vast world, wouldn't that address people's concerns?

After years and years of role-playing, I've learned that truly classless games encourage characters to converge on the jack-of-all-trades. Everyone picks up a few spells, the best skills, and so on, just because they can. Already, in ADOM, nearly all characters become thieves because there is little reason not to--joining the guild is easy, and the skills are very useful. If there were social consequences, and certain quests were closed off entirely, the choice would be more interesting.

So all that rambled a bit, but here's my proposal: that Jade should use the ADOM class system. Each class has a certain raw talent for weapon skills and magic: low, moderate, or high. For some classes, individual weapon groups and spells can be tweaked for flavor (this already exists in ADOM). Each class has several key skills that they advance easily, while other skills are more difficult to advance.

It should be possible to acquire new skills, but not without cost. Finding a teacher means attaching yourself to an organization, which has consequences on NPC interactions, available quests, etc.

By no means should you be able to acquire new skills through grinding. If you can get an ability just by investing time, with no consequences, then there is no interesting choice--you must assume for balance reasons that every character will do this. Grinding is boring, and a game where you can become super at everything inevitably turns into a grind. Classes make the scope of a game more manageable.

My most recent character, Cugel the thief, worked long and hard at getting literacy up to 80%+. When I finally started learning spells from the books he'd been collecting (around level 20), it felt great--but I realized that I still was far from being a wizard. My power points regenerated pitifully slowly, and the spells disappeared from memory more quickly. Later on in the game, I was able to wish for concentration, which meant I could use my spells much more frequently.

In Jade, perhaps he would have had to find a willing teacher to learn Concentration, attaching himself briefly to the guild. Then later, since he was a thief, he might have betrayed them by stealing one of their artifacts, making a new enemy.

Cheers,
Ben

Epythic
04-10-2009, 03:10 PM
Personally, one of the attractive points about ADOM for me is that it strikes an excellent balance between fully classless systems (like Oblivion or Omega) and highly restrictive class systems (like Angband).
Oblivion was everything but fully classless. Sure, you could do/learn everything. But leveling depended solely one which skills you chose for your class.

Which, by the way, is another thing I absolutely hate about $MOSTGAMES: experience points and levels. This is just stupid. Why try to represent non-linear things on a linear scale?


Classes offer many advantages: they provide unique abilities and challenges, improve the replayability of the game, make it easy to leap right in by relieving some of the management burden, and provide a useful hook for role-playing.
Classes improve the replayability? I don't think so. I usually play wizards. I *want* to be a wizard. I think it would be better if I could start as a wizard, but pick up something else later, experiment with things.


(Yes, I role-play even in single-player games. I like to make decisions in ADOM from the point of view of the character, and another shining point of ADOM is that there are several meaningful decisions to be made.)
Uww, role-playing in ADOM? How many role-relevant decisions do you have to make? Not that many, I think...


On the other hand, it adds a lot to the game to know that the classes are not totally restrictive. If my Fighter was born under the Salamander and really wants to learn magic, it is possible--but difficult. It is somewhat easier for a merchant, and even easier for a bard. This is as it should be. In principle, all skills and abilities in the game are open to all characters, with a few rare exceptions (Mindcrafters and Barbarians learning magic, advanced Necromancy).
Yeah. But why should we have classes at all? Means, why this "easier for a merchant" stuff, for example?
Can't you just start as a $RACE, get trained as a merchant (ie, get some attribute boni, get some skills and skill training, maybe a talent or two and a feat, and some equipment).
Then, learning something new is always a *lot* of work, it's just that exactly one time (at char generation) you get this work done automatically, for free.
And if you are a bard, for example, some of the stuff from you bard training is also relevant to wizardry. Which means that you already know some of the stuff you need to know to become a wizard.
Which makes it easier for bards to become a wizard.


I think some of the dissatisfaction being expressed in this thread stems from the lack of opportunity in ADOM. Herbalism can be learned from Guth'alak. If characters could learn herbalism just by grinding, they would have no strong motivation to go on the quest. Some skills can't be learned at all in the Drakalor chain except by wishing (and some not even then), but it's a small setting. If teachers exist for every skill in Jade, somewhere in the vast world, wouldn't that address people's concerns?
Ok, I see your point.
But still, to learn wizardry you might need some rare materials - for example a book. And then, you shouldn't find books just lying around in dungeons.


After years and years of role-playing, I've learned that truly classless games encourage characters to converge on the jack-of-all-trades. Everyone picks up a few spells, the best skills, and so on, just because they can. Already, in ADOM, nearly all characters become thieves because there is little reason not to--joining the guild is easy, and the skills are very useful. If there were social consequences, and certain quests were closed off entirely, the choice would be more interesting.
Somewhat agree, but that does not mean classless systems are bad.
Also, why should just *knowing* how to pickpocket close off quests? And why should every NPC automatically know that my PC belongs to the thieves guild?

I could understand if NPC's hate my PC if he steals things from them (and they notice it, which should not be the case). But other than that --?


So all that rambled a bit, but here's my proposal: that Jade should use the ADOM class system. Each class has a certain raw talent for weapon skills and magic: low, moderate, or high. For some classes, individual weapon groups and spells can be tweaked for flavor (this already exists in ADOM). Each class has several key skills that they advance easily, while other skills are more difficult to advance.
Short answer: No.
Long answer: <spoiler>Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooo!
.</spoiler>


It should be possible to acquire new skills, but not without cost. Finding a teacher means attaching yourself to an organization, which has consequences on NPC interactions, available quests, etc.
Agree.


By no means should you be able to acquire new skills through grinding. If you can get an ability just by investing time, with no consequences, then there is no interesting choice--you must assume for balance reasons that every character will do this. Grinding is boring, and a game where you can become super at everything inevitably turns into a grind. Classes make the scope of a game more manageable.
Agree.


Later on in the game, I was able to wish for concentration, which meant I could use my spells much more frequently.
Wonderful example: why shouldn't *every* character have concentration? In real life... ... ... Got my point?

RadicalRat
04-18-2009, 03:37 PM
By no means should you be able to acquire new skills through grinding.
Agreed. However, I think every character should have pretty much the same list of skills to begin with, some with very low initial values like 0 of course. Take two weapon fighting for an example. Every character who has ever even thought about fighting with a weapon in each hand should have the corresponding skill value of at least zero. With practice, everyone should get a bit better at it, although their true potential might be only unlocked by a teacher. So my suggestion would be: give everyone the skill, but make it max somewhere around 30-70 without a teacher for non-rangers. Same applies to every skill. Even literacy, everyone (except maybe trolls?) with eyesight should be able to learn recognize symbols or characters and therefore learn to tell apart scrolls and books with different spells, even without a teacher.

Even if it was theoretically possible to obtain the highest possible levels of skills and abilities through grinding, it wouldn't be a problem if the game mechanics was designed with that in mind. First of all, grinding should be relatively inefficient, which means the player's time is better spent advancing in the game except for maybe short training periods. In addition, grinding should never be risk-free to prevent players spending huge amounts of time in brainless, slow but safe grinding. I can think of several ways to do this, some of which can already be found in ADOM to some extent:

1. Corruption, aging, some sort of virus or random dangerous events: For corruption, just add a lot of corrupting (like in ADOM?) monsters, traps, items and restrict the number of potions and scrolls (or whatever) that cure corruption. Thus a player might become a chaos creature before he could perfect his knowledge of herbs through self-learning. :p Aging or a virus could do the same job, although there would be differences. With dangerous, random events, the risks of long-term grinding would simply stack too high.

2. Have the world evolve with time. The easiest way to do this, might be to just make all opponents tougher as the time passes. A better way might be to make the NPC:s active as well. This could mean them collecting items from dungeons or other places before the player does, killing some player-friendly NPC:s or even chasing after the player! Imagine if Frodo would have stayed in the Shire practicing gardening instead of hastening on his quest. :)

3. Reward advancing quickly through the game in some way, that may be related to 1 and 2. For example, have some items and quests be available only for a limited time.

The skill system has always been the one thing that has bugged me most about ADOM. Long story short: all characters should pretty much have the full list of skills, but different starting values, learning speeds and maximal values, which could perhaps be raised by a teacher.

Epythic
04-18-2009, 07:24 PM
Every character who has ever even thought about fighting with a weapon in each hand should have the corresponding skill value of at least zero.

Somehow this made me think of a paragraph out of Terry Pratchett's Discworld book "Reaper Man":



Bill Door [note: for those partially familiar with the Discworld series, Bill Door is actually Death, and always speaks in UPPERCASE LETTERS] found a piece of chalk in the farm's old smithy, located a piece of board among the debris, and wrote very carefully for some time. Then he wedged the board in front of the henhouse and pointed Cyril [I][note: Cyril is a chicken[I] towards it.
THIS YOU WILL READ he said.
Cyril peered myopically at the 'Cock-A-Doodle-Doo' in heavy gothic script. Somewhere in his tiny mad chicken mind a very distinct and chilly understanding formed that he'd better learn to read very, very quickly.


So, if even a chicken can think of learning to read, why shouldn't a troll be able to actually do it? :)

Side note: I really, really like the discworld books.

Sradac
04-20-2009, 06:42 PM
One thing i didnt like about adom was when leveling up you could increase anyskill even if you never use it. as a necro, I dont create slaves until I can make at least ghuls, but the first few levels im pumping up that skill. Kinda silly to be able to say "Hey i've never even done this but im getting better at it!"

Levels and classes work...sort of. It really depends on the system. AD&D class and level system works great, love it. off the top of my head......ugh i cant think of a skill only based game that did it well. I like skill based but no one seems to have gotten it quite right. I wana play with magic dangit. The more I tap into the planes the more attuned i should get to the, opening up new abilities and making old ones more efficient or more powerful. Not "Hey look a book, I know how to cast magic missile!" or "I just killed 1000 orcs now I know how to throw acid balls!"

Sorcerer's in AD&D are cool as heck.

F50
04-21-2009, 07:08 PM
I personally really enjoy the ADOM class system. It is simple, not too restrictive, but it still matters once the player has some experience. The class system gives the player a history, and helps to keep players from being able to do *everything* in one game.

I am also fine with a classless system, but that IMO is much harder to do well. A good classless system must *still* keep players from being able to do everything (God mode isn't fun IMO), but also grant players much more freedom what they want to do. If I am a fighter and I want to become a wizard, fine, but I *don't* want this to always be a better option than sticking to being a fighter. I want to have the freedom to specialize effectively. Not having that freedom defeats the purpose of a classless system IMO.

To this end, I really like the idea of the player loosing abilities if they don't use them. It keeps the character from being unlimited. Someone who can do everything mustn't use the same tactic over and over and over again (it could potentially be really fun to play a character like this).

Also, I like the idea of hard limits on stats based on race for the same reason I like class systems, they allow you to play the game again with a different set of strengths and weaknesses.

I don't mind leveling, particularly how it affects skills in ADOM. If you do not use a skill, its max will not increase (or increase very slowly). Without leveling, you have to do the same thing repeatedly in order to gain any proficiency in it. Leveling doesn't allow you to learn skills you wouldn't be able to learn otherwise, the process of learning them is merely made faster to relieve the boredom of scumming...I mean...training.


The more I tap into the planes the more attuned i should get to the, opening up new abilities and making old ones more efficient or more powerful. Not "Hey look a book, I know how to cast magic missile!" This I agree with. The idea of loosing memory of something you use often is kinda counterintuitive. However, if you just decided that you wouldn't loose castings for using spells in ADOM, it might make wizards ridiculously powerful. I would like to hear exactly how you would have magic done

Sradac
04-21-2009, 08:09 PM
My dream magic system is a combination of a timer system and a point system. Mana/spell/power points for your general magical reserve or endurance, and also a timer or cooldown system for spells. A very powerful wizard would easily be able to call down a meteor from the heavens, but the chances of him doing it twice in a row in my eyes is not that high. Weak spells should be on a short timer sure, but something like calling forth meteor would have a long cooldown.

Realm based cooldown as well, evoking a large pillar of ice to encase a group of foes should leave you a bit depleted in the realm of cold/ice/water but after a bit of a breather you can focus your thoughts to be more in-tune with that element. Specialization would be key here, focusing on one power/element would leave you much more familiar with it decreasing realm cool downs but possible increasing timers for other realms. An energist (elementalist type char focusing on electrical magic) focusing solely on his realm abilities would be a lot more familiar with chaining lightning together (No i dont mean the dang chain lightning spell) than say a summoner would.

I also really wana see spell combos =( but i know i would have to create my own roguelike for that. Conjure up a globe of water in your hand and hurl it at your enemy while its in flight throw a gust of wind at it to chill the water creating an ice bolt. Super heat a chunk of rock with fire magic and whip it at an orcs head for a nice lava-bolt.

im getting ahead of myself.

power reserves + timers would be cool IMO.


EDIT---
After reading this over, its kinda similar to the spell system in Wizardry 8 with different realms having their own pools, cept in wiz8 each realm had its own set of spell points. a priests realms might look like Fire : 30/30 - Water: 140/173 - Air: 79/113 - Earth: 67/92 - Mental: 32/46 - Divine: 158/209

its cool and all, wiz8's spell system works and is fun, I just want something a bit different.

Silfir
04-21-2009, 09:03 PM
There should only be a limited number of skills you can develop fully, but you should be able to change these as you see fit, and I think it'd be best to simulate this by having skills degrade from lack of practice over time. Obtaining the skills necessary for basic wizardry, or training to become a more than decent fighter, will take time, and require your full attention; necessarily you'll neglect your other skills in the meantime and lose ability in those. And it's not just "hold a sword and everything'll come back to you" - retraining the skills will take a lot less time than training them from scratch, but it will still take time to recover from two years of doing whatsoever related to the skill during your apprenticeship.

Basically it should work out like this: You start the game having completed your fighter training, and you have pretty decent skill scores in fighter-related skills line Find Weakness or Swords or something (it should be based on how the training of the particular procedurally generated guild works - guilds will follow different philosophies. Some will teach you to fight with as many kinds of weapons as possible, some will only teach you how to use one or two weapons, some will place additional attention on teaching you proper shield use, some will teach basic archery skills - the possibilities are endless!). You spend a couple of months ridding dungeons of infestations, accumulating treasure, and honing your fighting skills in the process. Maybe you meet a travelling archery instructor in one town and learn to use the bow properly, maybe you learnt reading in school and studied a bit in some libraries, and so on. Let's say after half a year you suddenly decide that you want to become a wizard - sure you can! But, you have to become an apprentice first. Studying to become a wizard is hard, and finding a master is equally hard. Some will want money, some will want quests completed. Becoming a wizard at this point is like another self-imposed quest, a goal the player sets for himself. And you have to realize that it's a major commitment. You don't become a wizard just by quaffing a scroll of education, you have to basically zone out for three, maybe more years of the game. In that time you barely have any time to hold a sword, let alone train it. Once you're finished you're both a fighter and a wizard - your training as a fighter is still there. Maybe you'll just take some refreshment lessons in a local fighter guild with your old buddies? Hold on - they're all pissed because they don't trust wizards and think fighters who become wizards betray their principles. Oh well, you'll have to learn along the way, or in some other town where they don't know you're a wizard too. But that means that the ogres you effortlessly slew a couple of years ago will be more threatening for a while, since your spells are too weak and your fighting isn't what it once was. You spent three years of training becoming less effective in battle! Woo Hoo!

What does this mean? With these mechanics, you can become everything, but it becomes increasingly hard to combine it all with each other. And it should be - you're one man. Larger than life - a true hero - but still limited. If you start out as a fighter and you want to become a wizard too you can - find a willing master and buy his services, endure three years of apprenticeship, and spend another couple of months rekindling your old figher prowess and learning to do some decent magic, gather some spells, and basically four years of game time later you are a fully grown fighter/wizard. Now imagine how much you could've achieved as ONLY a fighter. Those three years spent reading books and botching cantrips could've been spent gathering more treasure, becoming filthy rich, hiring a travelling mage to do the casting for you while getting absolutely deadly in melee. BUT - you wouldn't be a wizard. You made a decision based on your goals - your character's goals, and while it means you missed out on some nice stuff, it also rewarded you with something you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Characters shouldn't become Grand Masters by using a weapon over and over, at least not in a decent time-frame, and without some sort of basis. If you don't know jack shit about using a sword you won't learn the many techniques there are without losing your head in the process. PROPER training should be much more important in JADE than in ADOM. With all the elements related to the difficulty of learning new stuff JADE could become a proper computer role-playing game at last!

mr_ocnitsa
04-22-2009, 09:54 PM
This is interesting...I feel like I can appreciate both sides of the debate....as folks are pointing out JADE is not supposed to be ADOM.

That said, I kinda like the suggestion that people start with various skills higher than others with all (or almost all...remember Necromancy is a very particular skill that is a little harder to come by than just "Swimming")skills available...but in that case the benefits different levels and the ease of raising skill levels should be tweaked...and/or Learning and the ability to increase it and it's ability to offer more skills raised per level need to be tweaked. One ADOM example that illustrates what I'm talking about are certain times I've rolled a bard with low learning but lots of skills to choose from...your choices become very important because you are not going to be at 100 in every skill mid-game (I don't exploit (i.e. understand) as well as some people).

In a scenario like the above classes still matter...as they determine what you're abilities are initially and what you're special class-based abilities/benefits etc. as you level.

I think TB starts with a robust structure that could be tweaked to even more complexity in the next iteration....

vogonpoet
04-23-2009, 01:47 PM
...Increasingly frantic post...
and then the world will be mine, all MINE, woarh hah hah hah hah ha ha haaaargh
*lightning*
*roll of thunder*"
FTFY Silfir :)

Silfir
04-23-2009, 07:42 PM
Curses!!! They saw through my ruse!