Learning spells way more difficult for non-wizards, even with 100 Literacy
issueid=1313 10-30-2012 08:41 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Al-Khwarizmi: 62
Learning spells way more difficult for non-wizards, even with 100 Literacy

I'm under the impression that learning spells from books is now very very difficult for non-wizards compared to how it was in v1.1.1, even for classes that were traditionally rather decent casters, like monks.

I realize that the influence of Literacy has been increased by adding penalties to low Literacy e.g. when reading scrolls, and I like that, it makes the skill more interesting. But what I'm saying happens even with 100 Literacy so I suppose it's a different issue and not intentional. Yesterday, my lvl. 16 monk with 100 Literacy, 100 Concentration and 17 Le needed to get blind, confused, etc. several times in order to learn Knock. And some days ago I had another monk, around lvl. 13 and with 100 Lit and something like 95 Concentration, having serious problems to learn Darkness. I don't remember it being so difficult in 1.1.1.

Maybe it's just an impression of mine (it's possible to get terribly unlucky dice rolls, after all) but more people seem to be noticing the same, also with other classes (like paladins), so I decided to report it. Maybe other people can say if it also happens to them and we can see if there is in fact a bug.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1313
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Windows 7
Status Fixed
Priority 8
Affected Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 4
Fixed Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 6
Milestone (none)
Users able to reproduce bug 4
Users unable to reproduce bug 0
Assigned Users adom-admin
Tags (none)




10-30-2012 08:57 PM
Ancient Member
My latest two victories, ULE Dwarven Beastfighter and UNE Gnomish Farmer had pretty decent spell knowledge from the midgame onwards.

I don't believe any of the two classes are notorious users of magic, but yes I did find it difficult to read those books.
I think it is now like it should be.

I wished for Concentration, got good and great booklearner on the farmer and had to wear the Crown of Science.
Was a pretty capable caster in the endgame.

10-30-2012 09:56 PM
Ancient Member
This could also be why my wizards seem to get less from their starting books than they did in 1.1.1.

10-31-2012 01:03 AM
Ancient Member
I get the feeling that level is a far more significant factor in book learning than it was previously

11-02-2012 09:17 AM
Junior Member
If this has changed since 1.1.1 that would be disappointing.
It already felt really difficult to learn spells if you're not a Wizard.
Not great for new players trying to learn the game either...

11-02-2012 09:25 AM
jt jt is offline
Administrator
I'm unaware of any changes regarding the difficulty/balancing since 1.1.1. It may be caused by some bugs that were fixed, but I think we need to check this in detail to be sure. I need some enlightenment from the Creator on this one. ;)

11-02-2012 12:49 PM
Ancient Member
I hope it's a bug. :D

11-02-2012 01:40 PM
Senior Member
Possibly related to the arcane/clerical learning coefficients mix-up?

11-10-2012 04:10 AM
Senior Member
23:07:41: < Alucard> level 50 paladin, Le 30, 100 lit, 100 conc, managed one reading of Divine Digger (100 castings); two failures, and one fireball
23:09:23: < anon123> I got 20 castings of darkness with a level 1 wizard (19 Le) today

11-10-2012 04:41 PM
Ancient Member
I wonder how effective the book starsign is now.

11-10-2012 04:43 PM
Member
Chiming in for this one - I (CaptainPlatypus on IRC, for the curious) had a level ~20 monk, with 30+ Le and maxed Con and Lit, unable to learn the Knock spell from an uncursed book. Lost two points of Toughness trying.

11-18-2012 11:00 PM
Junior Member
This one is awful, made playing caster characters (even wizards) really unfun for me in 1.2.0. The amount I could learn from my starting (and following) books was A LOT smaller than in 1.1.1.

11-19-2012 06:52 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble
I wonder how effective the book starsign is now.
Forgot I wanted to mention it here.

I've recently played several paladins on 1.2p4 until one managed to make an ultra. The first several paladins had terrible problems with spellbooks to the point of 100 Concentration + 100 Literacy giving bad effects on Light spellbooks or slightly more difficult, such as Knock.

The last one was Book-born and I have experienced something like several confusings and blindings besides successful readings throughout the game reading stuff like Divine Digger or Acid Ball.

I don't have exact figures on level, but the difference was very very huge even without specific testing. I don't remember that being the case in 1.1.1.

11-19-2012 07:00 AM
Ancient Member
Paladin's aren't scientific enough I suppose. While on that point my High Elven Healer high into lvl 20+ also had difficulty reading Acid Ball, he eventually did get a succesfull read while wearing the crown, which was more than enough castings.

11-19-2012 08:06 AM
Ancient Member
Man, I'm glad to see that other people are noticing. From the first posts, I almost thought it was a hallucination of mine.

11-19-2012 09:15 AM
jt jt is offline
Administrator
Yes, it's a bug... further investigation showed that the balancing was damaged while fixing Issue 714.

11-19-2012 11:15 AM
Ancient Member
Honestly, it was pretty good, IMHO. Infuriating and annoying, but I liked it. I'd make an RFE to rebalance it (making it a bit harder) after this bug is fixed (and it gets a lot easier), but I fear magic-lovers in ADOM are much more numerous than me :)

11-19-2012 11:32 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
Honestly, it was pretty good, IMHO. Infuriating and annoying, but I liked it. I'd make an RFE to rebalance it (making it a bit harder) after this bug is fixed (and it gets a lot easier), but I fear magic-lovers in ADOM are much more numerous than me :)
Come on, it was (or rather is, it hasn't been fixed yet) too extreme. With typical "hybrid casters" like monks or paladins, you start to be able to learn reliably the simplest of spells at level 20 or so, and the complex ones like ball spells and such much much later. That means all but no spells in the early game. A newbie would say "wasn't this supposed to be a class able to learn spells?" and a veteran would say "I might as well play a barbarian", because when you start to be able to cast significantly, you're set to finish the game anyway...

I think the change to the importance of Literacy (chance to fail reading scrolls, etc.) was very good, but the bug isn't.

11-19-2012 12:02 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
Come on, it was (or rather is, it hasn't been fixed yet) too extreme. With typical "hybrid casters" like monks or paladins, you start to be able to learn reliably the simplest of spells at level 20 or so, and the complex ones like ball spells and such much much later. That means all but no spells in the early game. A newbie would say "wasn't this supposed to be a class able to learn spells?" and a veteran would say "I might as well play a barbarian", because when you start to be able to cast significantly, you're set to finish the game anyway...

I think the change to the importance of Literacy (chance to fail reading scrolls, etc.) was very good, but the bug isn't.
No, I'm not saying that this should be the way with magic. I only think that magic in original version was way to available to all. How come an assassin can even cast anything? He wasn't trained for it. But with enough Learning, say 20+, which is easy for anyone after munching oracle, everyone can learn spells without Concentration.

11-19-2012 12:42 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by jt
Yes, it's a bug... further investigation showed that the balancing was damaged while fixing Issue 714.
Good news. I wouldn't have wanted this to be intentional!

Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
No, I'm not saying that this should be the way with magic. I only think that magic in original version was way to available to all. How come an assassin can even cast anything?
Don't non-casters lose more castings per use of a spell than classes dedicated to this art?

11-19-2012 06:41 PM
jt jt is offline
Administrator
Well, we intend to fix the bug and make the learning slightly harder than in 1.1.1. The formulas then should work as intended and can be fine tuned from there. :)

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