So this issue just hit it's one year mark, wanted to give it a bump and see if anyone is interested or has any comments.

My main problem with potions of *stat* potential is they just aren't worth the !oWater needed to bless them. A blessed !oSP will raise your potential by 2, whereas a !oS will raise the stat by 2, and the potential by 2 as well, for a total potential gain of +4. So basically a potion of potential is actually *worse* at raising your potential than a potion of gain stat. Which is a little silly IMO.

An alternative would make it so that potions of gain stat wouldn't raise potentials.

Voting for, supporting the +3/+1 and suggesting -3 for cursed to add risk factor to quaff unidentified potions. Uncursed ones are fine as-is, no point in boosting them. Blessed ones would have the tradeoff to waste holy water on those.

Well, in my opinion potentials are potentials and they should not be easy to raise. Currently there are potions of potential, potions of raise attribute, training with Garth, natural training as well as increases from leveling and I'm certainly missing some. That is a ***load of ways to raise potentials.

Thus, no from me. Trolls be trolls and elves be elves.

as someone who never trains with Garth, there really aren't an assload of ways to raise potentials - certainly not the all-vital toughness since these potions are not very common. I'm fine with bumping these slightly - preferably to +3 for blessed, +2 uncursed, -whatever-it-is for cursed.

On the other side, potions of potential -stat- are somewhat more common, and you can bless several in one go with a single potion of holy water.

I think +3/+1/-1 B/U/C would be good.

The fact that you can stack them for dipping is a very good point I hadn't thought of.

However, due to the nature of the game, by the time I find my first potion of potential I probably want to use it right away (to boost toughness or strength or dex or willpower) - by the time I have multiple potions to dip, it's late enough in the game that it's no longer a pressing issue.

I agree +3/+1/-1 is probably best.

>there really aren't an assload of ways to raise potentials - certainly not the all-vital toughness since these potions are not very common.

Actually for toughness I can also add corpses.

Oh sure, hill orcs & swamp hydras are just leaving corpses all over the place without grinding it up in the wilderness, and the Mino Maze is such a pushover it's guaranteed everyone easy +To? C'mon now. I usually don't even see a hill orc corpse in a game, much less gain any To from one I see - and those are way more common than swamp hydras.

Stat giving corpses do not work at all when your stat is capped which is insanely annoying.
I've been meaning to post an RFE to make them increase potential/train stat if you roll a dice on a successful increase.

At least attribute training corpses still do their thing. Also things like kobold shaman corpses still raise Mana, although Mana is easy to train anyway.

I'm not certain why we have potentials anymore. If they are made even easier to increase, what is the point?

This is not the case for swamp hydra/hill orc corpses. If you're willing to scum the wilderness for, I dunno, maybe 5 game years, you can train To up to 99 using either of these monsters.

The minotaur emperor also still works, amazingly.

@SirTheta Strange you saying that toughness is so hard to raise when a xl 43 Tree Orc Beastfighter of yours, winning in only 32046 turns killing only 2117 monsters was able to raise his toughness by 11, which is the biggest raise in his attributes and also the highest of his attributes.

I voted against this. Although I'm all in for some extra means of training stats/potentials, I think there's a decent number of potential raising potions dropping around. I typically find 4-5 over the course of the game.
With average starting To of 10 (since I almost exclusively play elves) and potential around 12-13, this is enough to get me to 25 with 1-2 training sessions with Garth and of course morgia.
I feel that the balance is kept that way and raising stats isn't as easy a trick as it used to be, but not too tedious either.

That's actually fairly low among some of my other p20 wins. e.g.
http://ancardia.us.to/adom_users/sir...s/litrully.flg Mist Elf Weaponsmith +23 (actually +15 because of the Weaponsmith class power)
http://ancardia.us.to/adom_users/sir...s/ass_crac.flg Dark Elf Chaos Knight +20 (but who knows what it really is since I had +1d9 toughness power)
http://ancardia.us.to/adom_users/sir...s/bitch_hu.flg Drakeling Duelist +15
http://ancardia.us.to/adom_users/sir...s/death_bl.flg Gnome Assassin +11
http://ancardia.us.to/adom_users/sir...s/schiano_.flg Orc Beastfighter +11

Now, why bring out all these counterexamples? Well, they aren't really counterexamples. For one, they're all on very tough races and/or classes (for example, Weaponsmith has the biggest boost to To in ADOM as I recall) - so they all had pretty high potentials (I easily trained into/close to the 20s with herbs on the non Orc Beastfighter), and combined with a few POGA, it's easy to boost. And for two, these are all end-game characters. To use the Chaos Knight as an example - look at the experience on that beast. He slaughtered a ton of greater molochs, cleared D:50, etc. You get a ton of training put into stats when you gain a lot of experience/levels quickly in the end-game; combine that with an entire game of finding POGA [ahem, minotaur maze] and other potions - the stats are going to be pumped out of the wazoo. And, of course, as the game goes on, toughness actually gets relatively less important - levels take over, and even those with meager toughness will have enough HP to survive all but the fewest of encounters (except mist elves). And lastly but probably most important (excepting the beastfighter), I abuse the hell out of the potential stat herb "bug" because of the enormous advantage it gives. I don't always pump to 25, but I don't mess around.

In my experience, the point at which toughness is MOST important is TOEF. And toughness is quite hard to raise significantly by that point in the game if you aren't playing a "tough" class (which is, y'know, fine - as it should be).

Thanks for an excellent reply.

Changed. See http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2853.