[Balance] Pick Pockets
issueid=1204 08-24-2012 01:28 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Silfir: 6
[Balance] Pick Pockets
Too good and too mindless

Currently, applying the Pick Pockets talent on a creature with pockets gives you a random chance to receive gold or a small item, in addition to the items the creature will drop after its death. The vast majority of these creatures are completely harmless, and the pool from which the loot is chosen includes even the most powerful items at 10 stones or less, such as Preserver or the bracers of war.

This means that many players have made a habit of pickpocketing every creature at every opportunity, obtaining a vastly greater amount of loot at no risk to themselves - through pure grind - compared to players who don't pickpocket in order to preserve their sanity or to add a challenge.

If it were up to me, the "has been pickpocketed" flag would affect drops to subtract the first item generated at 10 stones of weight, so that Pick Pockets will only be of value when used on creatures you don't want to kill, rather than exchange button presses for loot. This behavior would change for thieves, to make their pickpocketing class power more distinctive. (Right now everyone with a wish to play the game optimally and a stomach for mindless button-pressing is a pickpocket.) Excluding some of the more valuable items from the pickpocket pool (for non-thieves) would be a step in the right direction.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1204
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Other (please specify)
Status Implemented
Priority 6
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 2
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 8
Votes against this feature 9
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




09-06-2012 06:07 PM
Senior Member
Silfir: Take your elitist attitude and keep it to yourself, will you please?

Your opinion that 'I've never needed the extra loot and therefore no one else should either' really just reeks of a belief that ADoM is only for the hardest-core of roguelike players and those that enjoy grinding should go play a different game instead.

So stop trying to make everyone play like you and forcing your game design philosophies on those that don't agree. If this makes you so mad that just DISREGARDING an option makes you question sanity, go make your own damn roguelike and see how popular it gets.

09-06-2012 06:24 PM
Ancient Member
It's not about making the game harder. It's about making it fun. Pickpocketing thousands of monsters is boring. The optimal way to play should not be too boring. I don't think there's any elitism in that.

In fact, I'd say there's more elitism in the attitude of the people who support grinding. Not everyone has time to spend grinding, and a game that doesn't require grinding to play well is a more accessible game, not a more hardcore game. Many people play accessible roguelikes such as Brogue and don't venture into ADOM because ADOM games are very long, and grinding doesn't help.

09-06-2012 06:51 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
It's not about making the game harder. It's about making it fun. Pickpocketing thousands of monsters is boring.
Pickpocketing thousands of monsters is boring to you, Silfir and i assume others as well, but is fun to just as many others as well. Removing viable playstyle options from a game make it harder.

Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
The optimal way to play should not be too boring. I don't think there's any elitism in that.
'The optimal way to play' is subjective. Your personal preference is to not grind, and that's okay if that's your choice but trying to force others to conform to what your idea of 'optimal play' is the very definition of elitism in my opinion.


Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
In fact, I'd say there's more elitism in the attitude of the people who support grinding. Not everyone has time to spend grinding, and a game that doesn't require grinding to play well is a more accessible game, not a more hardcore game.
Come on... You've been around here for a while and you know just like anyone else here that ADoM doesn't require grinding as it stands right now. Silfir even clearly states that it is unnecessary in this very thread! However just because the option is there seems to cause some to look down on those who use and enjoy such an option. Trying to push changes that will displease Min/Max-style players away is the total opposite of making it a more accessible game because it will exclude a complete subset of RPG/Roguelike players. So trying to keep the player pool as large as possible is being elitist?? I'd love to read your definition of elitism...


Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
Many people play accessible roguelikes such as Brogue and don't venture into ADOM because ADOM games are very long, and grinding doesn't help.
ADoM games being long are a result of it being much more story-driven than other roguelikes (in my opinion) and not because of the necessity to grind because if you ask most of the skilled ADOM players who regularly win about it, they will tell you that grinding is a waste of time since you will usually find solutions to any problem through non-grinding gameplay.

If that's true then why the necessity of removing the playstyle option instead of just ignoring said option?

09-06-2012 07:03 PM
Ancient Member
I do believe that ADOM is a game much less focused on grinding than your average RPG, yes. Having more items or being at a high level is much less important than understanding your power and limitations. I don't think ADOM is a grind-to-win game - that's why Pick Pockets feels so out of place to me.

If taking out Pick Pockets as it is would make the game too hard for the "average player", that means remembering to pickpocket monsters with pockets before you kill them anyway is an actual factor in success. Which seems to me like it would be a bad thing, which one could fix by still taking out Pick Pockets such as it is and increasing drop rates to compensate.

I think it should be possible to do something more interesting with Pick Pockets than make it free Create Item. Perhaps the time to do so was when the skill was created - not after ten years of people incorporating it into their playstyle to the point they feel actually hurt if it was taken out.



But I also think there's an unheard minority of ADOM players who lost interest at some point because they thought they needed to grind to win, because they've read about the value of Pick Pockets, tried to get into the habit of it, and gave up frustrated. I know that I've had that experience. I ended up just dropping Pick Pockets, but not the game along with it, which is fortunate for me, less fortunate for those that have to endure my particular excuse for humor on this forum. (Much of what you interpret as anger at the very existence of Pick Pockets is tongue-in-cheek. I think it's a bad element of an otherwise excellent game - nothing more and nothing less.) [EDIT: Incidentally, CheatMan, this is why I think having the option in the game can hurt.]

If I do come off as an elitist "Stop having fun!" Guy in these rants of mine, that's failure on my part to be sure, and I want to apologize if I've ruined anyone's mood by making that impression. I do want Pick Pockets changed from its current form to be, at the very least, of situational use rather than a grinding tool to be constantly used - but definitely without hurting anyone's enjoyment of the game overall. That would suck.

09-07-2012 07:28 PM
Senior Member
No one, except for some very stupid people, can think that if they have an option, they should use it.
I, personally, stop pickpocketing by the time I crown, mostly, and this is about level 15, just before piramid.
I, and only I, prefer just waiting to use of First Aid, except for vital situations. Does it mean it should be removed and replaced with an increased regen? (btw, this can be an actual factor of success, I'm sure trained First Aid could have saved me a lot of times)
I, and only I, almost never use missles. Does it mean missles should be removed and replaced with better melee attacks? (this also can be a factor of success. The rare times I care to pick up a pile of stones to kill a carmic lizard ensure me it is)
I, and only I, almost never smith. Does it?..
I, and only I, used music only when playing bard.
I, and only I, only visit DF on level about 20.
I, and only I, almost never pool-sip.
I, and only I, do NOT use starvation to raise stats.

Does this all mean that features listed should be removed? I think it doesn't. The removal would not hurt me. But it would hurt other people.
And so would your suggestion.

09-07-2012 08:00 PM
Ancient Member
The reason First Aid is an applicable skill is that it takes time to treat a wound and stop a bleeding. It's a choice you have to make - spend a couple of precious seconds to stop a wound from worsening, or keep fighting or running now. That's both an interesting and a situational choice to make (you'll only be faced with it if things get really serious). Pick Pockets fails on both counts.

Some of the things in that list of yours I think should actually be fixed, too. Sickness and starvation training and the easy access to teleport control are problems in and of itself.

I don't want anyone's enjoyment of the game to suffer - but it's hard for me to understand how taking out Pick Pockets would accomplish that. I've tried to come up with explanations and I haven't had much assistance as of yet. There's a whole lot about how I don't want others to have fun their way and wish to convert anyone to my own style of playing, and very, very little on how Pick Pockets is actually really fun and interesting.

09-07-2012 08:21 PM
Senior Member
It helps enjoying the game by not allowing some characters to die because they have something they need.

09-07-2012 08:28 PM
Ancient Member
If that's the case, we have an even bigger problem, because the game is so hard players are feeling forced to exploit a repetitive and uninteresting, if beneficial game mechanic just to survive - we have a Pick Pockets problem and a game balance problem on our hands. The best solution then would be to fix Pick Pockets and increase random drops to compensate.

(I shouldn't have to point out that, once again, that wasn't a defense of Pick Pockets itself.)

09-07-2012 08:41 PM
Ancient Member
I think I said something similar in another thread, but it bears repeating:

Some of the balance changes that have been proposed recently are designed to make the game explicitly easier or (usually) more difficult. I think there's definitely a compelling argument to be made one way or the other whether this should be the case, whether, say, there's any importance in having different classes being somewhat comparable in power or whether a particular item or spell or strategy is too effective and should be toned down. A lot of these changes, I don't think necessarily need to be addressed except in the most extreme cases. I say this despite having suggested a bunch of them myself.

I think the most serious balance issues are the ones that fall into the category of "things that nobody likes doing, but people do anyway because it makes the game easier". There's a lot of things that fall into this sort of category: Herb farming, stairhopping, smithing, and, in our particular case, pick pockets. I think there's a good argument to be made that if there is something ingame that nobody likes to do, but a lot of people feel compelled to do because of its inherent advantages, that's something that ought to be fixed. It might make the game harder to remove those things, which might be desirable or not, but you could also preserve balance simply by making an offsetting measure that preserves the overall game experience but removes doing things that suck. I think Silfir probably started this thread poorly by putting it in terms of the problem being that pickpockets gives more items (which most people like), rather than the problem being that pickpockets is a fairly boring and tedious way to get those items, but I do think that pickpockets as is currently set up does fit into this sort of sphere. In that context, I think the problem is more clear. Is there a way where we can simultaneously make pickpockets a more interesting feature without sacrificing the benefits that people feel that they get from using it. The second part is easy: You just increase drop rates slightly across the board. The first part is non-trivial. I think that there is a good case to be made that any change that removes things that most people hate doing without making the game substantially more difficult is probably worthwhile to improve the overall playability of the game.

09-07-2012 10:40 PM
Senior Member
Perhaps make the skill only available to Thieves and switch their 18 and 32 class powers? Have the Thieves Guild in Holeinthewall use different criteria for entry (robbing or killing Muxnip would be fine by me, or maybe just any shopkeeper) to teach his other skills (climbing, stealth, traps, etc). If we really really really think that players will "miss" the items they didn't get from pickpocketing, increase drops across the board by (50/LVL)% or something.

09-08-2012 12:32 AM
Ancient Member
I think more of these ideas need discussion threads before the feature request gets posted up, as it ends up in a chaotic mess that TB will more than likely just ignore as it clogs up the bug tracker.

Also long-winded back and forths is not productive in these report threads. There's votes for and against - you can state your piece and leave it at that without writing up essays. Balance and abuse are subjective things and it's futile to get into arguments about them here.

Of course I'm as guilty as anyone else of all this ;)

09-08-2012 09:36 AM
Senior Member
I think, this skill can only be replaced with something more or less equal. Increased drops are not equal.

09-08-2012 09:47 AM
Senior Member
BTW, I've finally found out when Silfir's variation of skill can be useful. It's when you sacrifice living monsters.

09-09-2012 12:48 AM
Ancient Member
I think it makes the most sense that when a npc notices the attempt, it stabs the pc in the hand for -50 hp. So I'm voting for.

09-09-2012 01:34 AM
Ancient Member
The goblin fails to hurt you.
Which direction [789456123, Z = ABORT]?
The goblin notices your attempt and gets angry! The goblin summons unknown strength at the sight of your thieving act and stabs your hand! You lose blood! You die...

09-22-2012 11:03 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
It's not about making the game harder. It's about making it fun. Pickpocketing thousands of monsters is boring. The optimal way to play should not be too boring. I don't think there's any elitism in that.

In fact, I'd say there's more elitism in the attitude of the people who support grinding. Not everyone has time to spend grinding, and a game that doesn't require grinding to play well is a more accessible game, not a more hardcore game. Many people play accessible roguelikes such as Brogue and don't venture into ADOM because ADOM games are very long, and grinding doesn't help.
How does having the pickpocketing at where it is now cause the game to require grinding?

09-22-2012 11:13 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Silfir
I do believe that ADOM is a game much less focused on grinding than your average RPG, yes. Having more items or being at a high level is much less important than understanding your power and limitations. I don't think ADOM is a grind-to-win game - that's why Pick Pockets feels so out of place to me.
However, I've heard a lot in these forums about how one "needs to be prepared" for a certain area, and this often means having the right equipment. But if you don't have it by that point in the game, don't you need to grind?

Quote Originally Posted by Silfir
If I do come off as an elitist "Stop having fun!" Guy in these rants of mine, that's failure on my part to be sure, and I want to apologize if I've ruined anyone's mood by making that impression. I do want Pick Pockets changed from its current form to be, at the very least, of situational use rather than a grinding tool to be constantly used - but definitely without hurting anyone's enjoyment of the game overall. That would suck.
However, it seemed from at least one post you'd want it gone entirely. Which would you prefer the best?

09-23-2012 05:55 AM
Ancient Member
It takes you this long to come up with questions this pointless?

The question is not if the game requires grinding or not. (It requires little to some.) The question is if Pick Pockets sucks. (It does.)

If it's the optimal way of playing, players will do it because they want to win. That doesn't make it fun. If you have a significant portion of the playerbase who won't do it even though it's the optimal way of playing because it's mindless and a chore, it seems to me that it's decidedly not fun. No one enjoys using Pick Pockets; at most they enjoy getting the items from it.

09-23-2012 06:25 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Silfir
It takes you this long to come up with questions this pointless?

The question is not if the game requires grinding or not. (It requires little to some.) The question is if Pick Pockets sucks. (It does.)

If it's the optimal way of playing, players will do it because they want to win. That doesn't make it fun. If you have a significant portion of the playerbase who won't do it even though it's the optimal way of playing because it's mindless and a chore, it seems to me that it's decidedly not fun. No one enjoys using Pick Pockets; at most they enjoy getting the items from it.
On those grounds, I vote that wizards should be removed from the game.

09-23-2012 07:41 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
On those grounds, I vote that wizards should be removed from the game.
Most people like playing Wizards, though, whereas picking pockets is not something for which enjoyment is drawn.

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