Quest to kill Jharod the Healer
issueid=1388 12-07-2012 04:59 AM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by Dogbreath: 74
Quest to kill Jharod the Healer
Make the quest from Hotzenplotz to kill Jharod available without talking to village elder.

Playing a Chaos Knight, I noticed it's impossible to generate either the VD or the DD due to neither the village elder nor the druid wanting to talk to you. Which is fine (it makes sense), but you can't generate the quest to kill Jharod without talking to Rynt. My suggested improvement would be to make the quest available from Hotzenplotz *without* getting the quest from Rynt, but keep it mutually exclusive from the Druid's quest. I.e, if you get the quest from Hotzenplotz, then the druid will *never* give you the black druid quest (even if you convert to another alignment), and if you get the druid quest first, Hotzenplotz will never give you the quest to kill the healer.

You could make it so, say, Jharod is always generated hostile towards chaotically aligned Chaos Knights, so there's no means of rescuing the Carpenter.

This is a balance issue, but also because I dislike having to change my alignment to N to do an obviously chaotic quest.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1388
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 7
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 10
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 21
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 28
Votes against this feature 4
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-06-2013 02:16 PM
Ancient Member
Yes, I just verified (version 1.2 p16). It's always been like this afaik, not sure what went wrong in your game.

12-06-2013 03:06 PM
Ancient Member
Wow, you guys do talk a lot about the same thing.

Anyway, as GordonOverkill has tried to get over to the crowd. Hotzenplotz's quest can only be obtained if Jharod exists. Jharod only exists if the quest to find the carpenter has been generated.
This is how it has always been and I happy with it that way, because logic tells me that I cannot be asked to kill somebody that does not exist.

That definately is not illogical, if you think it is, then feel free to convince me otherwise. I have read through all the posts and nowhere did I spot a logical explanation as to why.

@SirTheta With respect. It seems there is only two people in this discussion that DO think.

@Al-Khwarizmi I think even from a role-playing perspective there is no need to remove the possibility for Chaos Knights to obtain the Terinyo quests. If a player wants to role-play the redemption CK, why not.

12-06-2013 04:33 PM
Ancient Member
Current situation: Talking to Rynt will fix the quantum state of VD and DD by bringing VD to existence along with the carpenter (primary target) and the healer (secondary target). It will also remove DD as a dungeon from the game.

What RFE proposes: Talking to Hotzenplotz will fix the quantum state of VD and DD by bringing VD to existence along with the healer (primary target) and the carpenter (secondary target). It will also remove DD as a dungeon from the game.

Everyone (both for and against ) here thinks that first scenario is ok.
Most people here, along with the actual RFE author state that the second scenario is ok too.
Gordon and Stingray say that the second scenarios is not ok.
So far I haven't seen a reasonable explanation from either of them exactly why the second scenario is not ok.

12-06-2013 04:49 PM
Ancient Member
Because it would heavily decrease the attractiveness of the Chaos Knight class by taking away an interesting unique characteristic. The first scenario does not have such a big disadvantage, so in my eyes there is little reason to prefer the second option.

12-06-2013 04:51 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by GordonOverkill
Because it would heavily decrease the attractiveness of the Chaos Knight class by taking away an interesting unique characteristic. The first scenario does not have such a big disadvantage, so in my eyes there is little reason to prefer the second option.
I forgot about that one, true.
Let me rephrase it - I wish to see any reason not related to game balance and Chaos Knights why the second scenario is not ok.

12-06-2013 04:51 PM
Ancient Member
Because not everyone thinks it is ok.
Reasonable explanation as to why it is not ok, is the same as from my first post. Chaos Knights should not get easy access to the Healing skill, because they have so many other advantages already.

Look, there was much added with the addition of Chaos Knights and the lack of the Healing skill was one of them. This was and still is my objection to making Hotzenplotz generate the Village Dungeon.

Leaving it as it is now fixes everything as then there is no problem, not that there ever was either. I'm still looking forward to why some think the way the quests was for 10+ years is such a big issue, e: besides the fact that it makes it more work for a Chaos Knight to get the Healing skill. Which is what this whole RFE is about and nothing else.

P.S. Before you respond let me first read that link you posted. Edit - No, nothing of value there wrt why Hotzenplotz should also be able to generate the dungeon.

12-06-2013 04:52 PM
Ancient Member
Don't know any. The balance-reason is the deciding factor for my choice.

12-06-2013 05:29 PM
Member
Dogbreath, you should edit your RFE/submit a new one if you think that CKs are irrelevant to the discussion. I do agree that for chaotically generated characters, talking to Hotz should generate the VD. That seems to be the crux of your argument that's evolved over the course of the thread. As to the other issues that people are throwing "illogical" and "non thinking" flames about, I wanna address those too.

I agree with Gordon 100% about the whole state of those dungeons in ADoM. Just because player-knowledge tells you that there are 2 dungeons that you must choose from doesn't detract at all from the role-playing consistency in each gameplay instance. Likewise, if getting healing as a CK was removed (a sub-suggestion that arose in this thread), just because as a player you feel cheated out of those dungeons, Mr Chaos McKnightypants wouldn't, because in his instance of the world, there is no dungeon.

As to people flaming about certain people's attitude towards game difficulty, why get so heated? Yes, they have won, so it's easier for them to win/they know exploits and all, but look at it in reverse. They also played through to get that first win, without all the knowledge and experience. It's not about them wanting to keep the game challenging for them (necessarily) as it is wanting to keep the game at a point where it's not suddenly trivial to win, which would deprive the newer players of the same experiences they [the old guard] had. Sure, you can disagree about each change, etc, but why make it personal and attribute negative reasons for their reluctance to make certain things newbie friendly?

12-06-2013 05:53 PM
Ancient Member
The thing is that all the points based on the undesirability of making the game easier are moot. This RFE won't really make the game easier in practice because currently a CK can easily get Healing by converting to N.

IF proposals about making CK conversion difficult or impossible are implemented, THEN we could talk about this change actually making the game easier. But then, balance issues to prevent that could be implemented, and no one in this thread is actually opposing that! As I said, I actually think it would be good to prevent CK's from getting Healing altogether. My vote for this RFE is not at all related to wanting to get Healing.

The vast majority of us only want some coherence in the quests and to stop the game from incentivizing doing unnatural things like converting to N in order to do a highly chaotic quest. You can come up with as many post-hoc justifications as you like, but that doesn't really make any sense. The points about different characters living in different parallel universes, etc. are a very contrived way of saying that the game rules can't be questioned, even if they are unnatural, because the game is the way it is and that's it. But imagine a pen-and-paper D&D campaign book saying that in order to do a highly chaotic quest to kill a healer, you first need to not be chaotic and talk to a lawful village elder about a lawful quest about a totally different character from said healer. Don't tell me that you wouldn't find that awkward.

Let me pose a question to the people voting No to this RFE: if CK's didn't have a way to get Healing at all (for example because Hotzenplotz wouldn't talk to them, or because Rynt wouldn't talk to them even after converting), then, would you still vote No to this RFE?

If the answer is yes, you're being incoherent because no one has given any other argument against this RFE apart from the CK healing issue, as _Ln_ pointed out. If the answer is no, you are voting wrong because here we are voting this RFE only, the CK healing issue needs to be resolved elsewhere (and I'm actually in the same side as you on that, as I think many of us who voted yes probably are!)

12-06-2013 05:57 PM
Ancient Member
Healing is not the most important reason for me, either. I like the fact that CKs have no access to most of the ordinary starting dungeons. That breaks my usual early game routine in a very exciting way. Would love to keep it that way.

12-06-2013 06:24 PM
Ancient Member
I voted yes on this issue originally, but I have to admit, I'm somewhat inclined to agree with some of the detractors.

Chaos knights switching alignment to access the Healing quest, as it currently stands, does feel ridiculous to me. Preventing them from switching alignments at all, or making it that they can't access those quests even under alignment switch seems a better fit (they're still a chaos knight; a warrior fighting for evil, just because they happen to be neutral/lawful aligned doesn't necessarily mean that people's prejudice against them will magically go away). I don't think that there's any problem in principle with the chaotic quest being directly available to CKs without visiting Rynt--that solution is fine to me--but forcing players to scum alignment to access a bunch of quests is not a good design, IMHO.

12-06-2013 06:39 PM
Senior Member
*sigh*

JellySlayer, I'm proposing this change precisely to avoid scumming alignment change. What you said pretty much mirrors exactly what I'm proposing - how does it in any way agree with the detractors? (who, to quote stingray, say "if you want healing as CK you can damn well work for it" - meaning, scumming an altar)

12-06-2013 06:46 PM
Ancient Member
Yes, changing alignment to get Healing as a CK is the *current* situation, not the one proposed in the RFE, which would precisely avoid that!

12-06-2013 07:00 PM
Ancient Member
I guess I agree with the detractors in the sense that I see no problem in making the Healing quest entirely inaccessible. For balance and stylistic reasons, I think forcing CKs to find alternate approaches to deal with this problem is fine--they honestly don't need Healing. The middle ground situation that we have right now is terrible, but I'm fine with it going in either direction. The same problem applies to most of the other quests--Dwarf quests, unicorn, ToTRR. It just doesn't feel thematically appropriate at all to me for CKs to switch alignment at a whim--especially when the reason for doing so is essentially a powergaming reason.

12-06-2013 07:58 PM
Senior Member
JellySlayer: Oh, in that case, yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing this quest changed for ChAoS knights. Maybe make the reward different (like teaching the Necromancy skill) or maybe just removed altogether for CKs? (or replaced with something else, like killing the Dwarftown Priest) I could update the RFE with these possibilities, but I think it'd be better to RFE those ideas once this one is fixed. Because right now fixing this would be pretty simple, whereas making other changes makes the changes substantially harder to implement - and therefore less likely. :)

12-06-2013 08:29 PM
Member
as it stands there isn't all that much early game content for chaos knights, I would like to get some kind of early game quest to fill the void. I honestly couldn't care less what the reward is, heck give the order to kill the healer and have Hotzenplotz pay you off in gold.

12-06-2013 08:58 PM
Senior Member
After thinking a little more about this, I think talking to Hotzenplotz should generate the quest, but either:

- Jharod should not give Healing to CKs no matter what their alignment is, and/or
- Hotzenplotz should reward CKs with money instead of a visit to the doctor, or
- Hotzenplotz should not give the quest to chaotic CKs. I do not like this last option as it would make things inconsistent, as he does give the kill the sheriff quest.

In short, I like the idea of Healing being unavailable to CKs in the early game (the current state of things), but I think having a second way of generating the VD is a neat idea, irrespective of the whole CK Healing debate.

12-06-2013 09:02 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
Let me pose a question to the people voting No to this RFE: if CK's didn't have a way to get Healing at all (for example because Hotzenplotz wouldn't talk to them, or because Rynt wouldn't talk to them even after converting), then, would you still vote No to this RFE?

If the answer is yes, you're being incoherent because no one has given any other argument against this RFE apart from the CK healing issue, as _Ln_ pointed out. If the answer is no, you are voting wrong because here we are voting this RFE only, the CK healing issue needs to be resolved elsewhere (and I'm actually in the same side as you on that, as I think many of us who voted yes probably are!)
This +infinity. It seems like all ideas should be repeated 100 times to get to some sort of a consensus. Jeez.

Quote Originally Posted by GordonOverkill
Healing is not the most important reason for me, either. I like the fact that CKs have no access to most of the ordinary starting dungeons. That breaks my usual early game routine in a very exciting way. Would love to keep it that way.
Making it accessible will bend your will and make you kill the healer every time? It's not like this RFE is forcing you to do that, eh?
For the record, as far as I am aware no special dungeon feature can appear in the VD. So that's like 7 levels of nothing except monsters to kill. Like the other dungeon open to any adventurer with more monsters to kill.

Also, I don't know but I don't see the issue of changing the game for the better (in coherence) which will affect exactly one class as that abhorrent. I'm pretty certain that most novice players do not play CKs, because it's pretty hard if you are not good. It's also a pretty bad decision, because like 80% of the game plot is not accessible. If you can't win with wizards for several years, you won't be able to suddenly win with a CK. Even if they can get Healing.

12-06-2013 11:11 PM
Ancient Member
Um, I've already said this (and so has Dogbreath, and _Ln_, and surely some others), but you can balance CKs after implementing this by having them unable to get the quest from Hotz. Opposing this on any grounds related to CK is straight up dumb because they're a new class that isn't balanced at all (AND CAN CURRENTLY GET HEALING with some witchery for Pete's sake, which makes this particular argument against EVEN DUMBER) - things can be changed around as necessary in order to balance CKs specifically; that's what the prereleases are all about.This RFE goes way beyond CKs and was desirable before they were ever introduced because it fixes a flawed design.

(I mean look at aerol's suggestion - that would make a great RFE for CKs!)

12-07-2013 12:07 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Dogbreath
*sigh*

JellySlayer, I'm proposing this change precisely to avoid scumming alignment change. What you said pretty much mirrors exactly what I'm proposing - how does it in any way agree with the detractors? (who, to quote stingray, say "if you want healing as CK you can damn well work for it" - meaning, scumming an altar)

Ahem, I did not say scum to change alignment. I said I think CKs should die when converting. I also said redemption is acceptable.

Again, there is still nothing broken to be fixed. You are expecting TB to make Hotzenplotz generate the VD, the reason for what I cannot fathom. Besides that chaotic CKs cannot get his quest without converting. Then we ask him in a separate RFE to make it so that CKs cannot get Healing. This is just totally absurd. Do you have some desire to waste the man's time?

For what reason? To kill one Healer probably worth less than 100xp and 10 Large bats and maybe 2k in gold if you take miser. I have very recently done 3 Chaos Knights and in all three early games I had plenty to do without stopping once.

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