Change placement for some lower CoC special levels
issueid=2604 01-04-2014 01:48 PM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by asdf: 54
Change placement for some lower CoC special levels
Early game-mid game separator - either Khelavaster (D:16) or Animated Forest (D:14)
Mid game-End game separator - Wall of Flames (D:26)

This leaves not a lot of space to place mid-game quests (~20-40 level, most boring part of the game currently).

I think that lower CoC level should be swapped a little bit to make a place for a lot of mid-game quests in development -
Currently:
Khelavaster (D:16)
Wall of Flames (D:26)
Eternal Guardian (D:28)
Casino (D:30)
Shortcut to the surface (D:32)

This makes just ~10 level to put all mid-game content in CoC. Some of this levels are already occupied.

After shuffling them around and freeing some levels, using wall of flames as ticket to Casino and endgame -
Khelavaster (D:16)
Eternal Guardian (D:24) - it asks for ring in DL 18 caverns, there is little sense to him to be below wall of flames, which is much more hard to pass. Also he could split mid-game in a half.
Shortcut to the surface (D:31) - by moving shortcut just before wall of flames and Casino we will allow its usage for mid-game pre-ToEF characters and save them a lot of time and hassle to climb every time
Wall of Flames (D:32) - blocking end-game content
Casino (D:33) - clearly end-game content shop

Move cat lord a few levels below and maybe change battle bunnies to mid-game - and everything is set. Air Temple starts at CoC:40, so there are some space for more end-game too.

With this rearrangement there are ~16 levels to put mid-game content to, and easy access to surface allows putting surface mid-game locations without tedious climbs every time.
Issue Details
Issue Number 2604
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority 5 - Medium
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 21
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 12
Votes against this feature 2
Attachments 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)


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01-04-2014 02:00 PM
Member
Changing Eternal Guardian and the Wall of Flames is a great idea.
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01-04-2014 02:16 PM
Member
Exactly this. Eternal Guardian should definitely be before Wall of Flames, and personally I would like to see him even before the Water Temple.

EDIT: And perhaps stairs to DH and Animated Forest should always be found right after Dwarftown, leaves a fixed room for mid-game quests.
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01-04-2014 02:23 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Heikki
EDIT: And perhaps stairs to DH and Animated Forest should always be found right after Dwarftown, leaves a fixed room for mid-game quests.
Levels between Dwarftown and DH/Forest could be used for guaranteed spawn of quest monster for first Thundaar quest. This will make perfect sense, actually.
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01-04-2014 02:30 PM
Member
Quote Originally Posted by asdf
Levels between Dwarftown and DH/Forest could be used for guaranteed spawn of quest monster for first Thundaar quest. This will make perfect sense, actually.
Yeah, this would work too. Point being, stairs to DH/Forest should not be "somewhere" after Dwarftown, they should always be exactly X levels below Dwarftown.
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01-04-2014 02:47 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Heikki
Exactly this. Eternal Guardian should definitely be before Wall of Flames, and personally I would like to see him even before the Water Temple.

EDIT: And perhaps stairs to DH and Animated Forest should always be found right after Dwarftown, leaves a fixed room for mid-game quests.
Before wall of flames yes, before the water temple no. Let not so experienced players have the pride of getting their first orb! Furthermore, water temple is definitely easier than TotHK, if you were able to do the TotHK the water temple is a pushover. And the late temples are very close together anyway. I think it's much better that there is content between temples so that the thing doesn't become "OK, first orb, now second orb, now third orb, now fourth orb".
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01-04-2014 02:52 PM
Ancient Member
I mostly agree with this proposed new layout although I'd like to see the bunny level undiggable and with disabled teleportation. Right now every time I sense "intense tension", I dig a tunnel, slay a white r and purple @ and go on without looking back. Supposedly special level is not special at all, at least for spoiled players that know what's going on.
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01-04-2014 02:59 PM
Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
Before wall of flames yes, before the water temple no. Let not so experienced players have the pride of getting their first orb! Furthermore, water temple is definitely easier than TotHK, if you were able to do the TotHK the water temple is a pushover. And the late temples are very close together anyway. I think it's much better that there is content between temples so that the thing doesn't become "OK, first orb, now second orb, now third orb, now fourth orb".
Now that Snake from Beyond sees in the dark, and Skeletal King actually summons things, Water Temple might be easier, but it's not necessarily that. Recently I've done TotHK and ToEF in a row, both before Water Temple. This also makes the game like "OK, first orb, now second orb" etc. So in a way, Eternal Guardian before Water Temple would separate preparing/training and finishing the game, when you get the first orb, you CAN go straight through every temple and finish the game.

But yeah, if you were able to do the TotHK, you should be able to do Water Temple without problems, true.
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01-04-2014 03:03 PM
Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
I mostly agree with this proposed new layout although I'd like to see the bunny level undiggable and with disabled teleportation. Right now every time I sense "intense tension", I dig a tunnel, slay a white r and purple @ and go on without looking back. Supposedly special level is not special at all, at least for spoiled players that know what's going on.
A bit off topic, but D: 49 should also be undiggable. You should have your means to travel through D: 49 (at least if spoiled), digging makes it like the stairs were adjacent to each other. This special level is now not special at all.
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01-04-2014 04:04 PM
Ancient Member
On-topic, I don't have much problem with this and would very much (selfishly) like the shortcut to the surface be above the wall of flames because it's so useful :)

Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
I mostly agree with this proposed new layout although I'd like to see the bunny level undiggable and with disabled teleportation. Right now every time I sense "intense tension", I dig a tunnel, slay a white r and purple @ and go on without looking back. Supposedly special level is not special at all, at least for spoiled players that know what's going on.
Uh, that's literally the ENTIRE point of the level.
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01-04-2014 04:12 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
I mostly agree with this proposed new layout although I'd like to see the bunny level undiggable and with disabled teleportation. Right now every time I sense "intense tension", I dig a tunnel, slay a white r and purple @ and go on without looking back. Supposedly special level is not special at all, at least for spoiled players that know what's going on.
Yes, this is another case of the level's difficulty being bypassed because we already know how. If you don't know about the rabbits, it's not immediately obvious that you should dig south and kill their master instead of just walking - and when you find out, it's too late...

Having to wade through waves of battle bunnies because this method is "cheap" doesn't sound fun to me.
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01-04-2014 05:38 PM
Ancient Member
The only thing that makes the battle bunny level barely acceptable right now is that it can be solved. Undiggable and unteleportable, it would be a straight-up abomination.
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01-04-2014 05:54 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Silfir
The only thing that makes the battle bunny level barely acceptable right now is that it can be solved. Undiggable and unteleportable, it would be a straight-up abomination.
I fully agree.
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01-04-2014 06:09 PM
Ancient Member
>I mostly agree with this proposed new layout although I'd like to see the bunny level undiggable and with disabled teleportation. Right now every time I sense "intense tension", I dig a tunnel, slay a white r and purple @ and go on without looking back. Supposedly special level is not special at all, at least for spoiled players that know what's going on.

No, a player should never have to fight hundreds of battle bunnies more than once in his life. Many players including me will stop playing ADOM if it should be changed to this.

>>A bit off topic, but D: 49 should also be undiggable. You should have your means to travel through D: 49 (at least if spoiled), digging makes it like the stairs were adjacent to each other. This special level is now not special at all.

No, one can also get to the downstairs without throwing anything, but for it to work you have to be able to dig. Besides it makes no difference if you make a shortcut. It is already a very difficult puzzle to solve for the unspoiled, I know, I was there.
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01-04-2014 06:13 PM
Ancient Member
Traveling through D:49 the normal way, through throwing items, is trivial once you've figured it out. The alternate solution through digging and kicking is much more complicated, and I would not want to punish players who have the ingenuity to figure it out! Having more than one way to solve a puzzle is just about the opposite of a bad thing.

Even without the alternate solution provided by it, just what is the merit of forcing players to take the long way around if they have the digging to spare? It's true that "SUFFER!" is one of the main directives of ADOM design, but not all suffering is equally desirable. Suffering through boredom is something we shouldn't encourage.
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01-04-2014 09:34 PM
Senior Member
The one thing I would be in favor of is switching the EG with the wall of flames, because with the current behavior unspoiled players are not likely to find out that retrieving the ring can buff up the character for the ToEF fight before the first time they actually manage to retrieve the orb and pass the wall of flames. In effect this makes it harder for unspoiled players to retrieve the fire orb for the first time, which is a great source of excitement, pride and motivation for playing the game further.

This would also have the added benefit of introducing the possibility for a CoC sidebranch between the EG and the wall of flames which would then become a possible pre-ToEF side location.
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05-08-2014 09:06 PM
Senior Member
bump to discuiss as a related RFE to - http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2950
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05-08-2014 10:57 PM
Ancient Member
Trying to decide if having shortcut pre-Wall of the Flames would be overly exploitable. Would make a big difference to speed runners, I guess. Might be nice for new players to get out quickly after the finding the Wall.

I disagree about changing the Bunny level to undiggable or no-teleport. Would be nightmare.

EG should be after banshee and Water Temple. Remember, some PCs have to skip the ToTHK for a variety of reasons, and having to pass him multiple times is very nasty.

I don't think there's any reason to change the composition of levels near DT/AF/DH, nor to make the Thrundarr monster guaranteed in those areas.
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05-09-2014 01:04 AM
Qui Qui is offline
Senior Member
I think Bunny level should be removed. It's "spoily" (you know about it = insta-pass), and tbh not very interesting. Remove/replace/completely redo. I see no reason for it to remain in the game. Well, unless TB likes it ;).
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05-09-2014 02:34 AM
Ancient Member
Hey, I like the bunny level! It excited the hell out of me the first time I hit it and I wouldn't want people to lose that feeling.
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05-09-2014 04:18 PM
Qui Qui is offline
Senior Member
Interesting point of view. Yes, it is somewhat "special" the first time you encounter it. But completely unremarkable every time after that. Maybe if Bugs was more of a challenge...?
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