Since resurrection started I never saw anything removed from the game. The were changes, new thing but I can tell for sure that both Bridge Building and Woodcrafting will stay in skill list. They're already part of the game.

Other suggestions looks reasonable, hope we'll see them implemented... Or at least one of them.

But, what does 'supposed to be balanced' really mean. Does it mean that from the time the game was conceived, the developer never had any intention of balance? Or does it mean that now that the game is in a late developmental state and they are obviously not balanced, we are going to say that this is the best way for things to be (since it is the only way they can be without a lot of extra work)?

I mean, if most people are satisfied with the way things are, then I guess the classes are not 'supposed' to be balanced because people like what they got, and that is one of the points of making a game.

Look, what you keep missing is that an unbalanced state is the (relatively) easiest state to attain. You think that just happened to be intentional? What you have here is just an after the fact explanation for something that fits your expectations. You accept that the way the game currently is (for the most part) to be the best possible outcome, and you are just selectively choosing evidence that supports that rather than being realistic.

1a. Here is a really radical idea: Make logs weight less than 800s. Make them weigh 200s. Rationalize it however you want, tell yourself it's a narrow bridge built out of 2x4's.
1b. Let any kind of axe be used. We cannot claim to be doing anything other than setting this game back if we can't at least allow that much flexibility.

3&4 ...And now we are just going backwards. We have this awful, inconvenient, niche skill, and we are going to prop it up by nerfing the alternatives that work so much better.

I've never used bridge building. I've been playing for 15 years. Now you are going to try and force me to by making wands of cold super rare? I'd rather waste a wish on one than lug thousands of stones worth of logs around.

I don't even think there's a best possible outcome. There's always something to fix. I just wanted to point out that I got the impression the developer hasn't particularly aimed for a perfectly balanced game, and I don't think it's an issue. Wizards or Archers or Healers have certain advantages in Adom, and yet I choose to play other classes. Rather I'd say the variation makes it more interesting, because there are many ways to play the game, not all of them easy. It doesn't matter whether it was conceived like this from the beginning or just commented on later. Aren't you the one just picking arguments convenient to your point because you're focusing on words like 'supposed' rather than, for example, commenting on why I said the skill has its use as a flavour and a guaranteed source of bridges for non-spellcasters? Probably because you don't find value in the skill. But just because you don't, it doesn't mean that others can't find it useful. So you haven't used the feature. I have. People play the game differently. It's not all about convenience. For example, from a role-playing view as a Trollish fighter I might want to build a bridge rather than search for a wand of cold. And sometimes I just think it's fun to do simply because I can.

What would be realistic in your opinion then? You talk about intrinsic value and being realistic, but basically you seem to say that Bridge Building is worthless and anyone who thinks otherwise is not realistic. We're starting to argue about rather useless things, not about how the skill works or should work, but about how it's perceived. And I don't think that's going to lead anywhere. Why does it bug you anyway that there's a skill you don't use? If there are people who like the feature, despite the fact it could be adjusted a bit, why shouldn't it be in the game?

Many of the alternatives that have been suggested would be ok with me, it's not that change itself would be bad. But removing Bridge Building completely or making it the same as woodcraft would be removing something that makes the game unique. I just don't think that balance is the number one issue in this case, whereas if a feature is not being used at all, then it might need some adjustment. Those aspects are related, but they're not the same thing.

Oh, and those numbered things I listed weren't my suggestions but rather I tried to summarise what's been proposed by others. I don't think making wands of cold super rare would be that good, but I mentioned it too since it's an alternative to the way things are. I just thought it would be easier to consider different alternatives if the possibilities are listed. It seems you're assuming I have a really strong opinion about this issue, which I don't. I don't care if it stays the same or if there's some small change. And big changes... well, I'm just saying that since it doesn't have a huge effect on my enjoyment of the game, then it's something that can be considered but it's not in any way urgent.

While I agree with your description of the difference here, I think it's fair to say that Woodcraft has fairly minimal use. Chopping trees isn't something that people do a lot of anyway, and it's almost always done in zero-risk areas. So, at best, the skill saves you a few turns off your score or an extra large ration or two. Combining Woodcraft and BB (perhaps calling the skill carpentry, or even just leaving it as BB and having it affect chopping anyway) does not seem like a bad option.

I don't think removing bridge building should be removed, but I think that, at present, there are a lot of hurdles that make it really inconvenient to use. Especially now that there is a guaranteed wand of cold for all PCs in the IQD, its uses are pretty marginal.

Ok, so no removing anything from the game ever? Merging the skills is an entirely insignificant change. I have played the game since 1998 (or maybe 1999? can't remember) and I have never once used bridge building, yet it's right in your face in about half the games. I suspect most players have a similar history.

That sounds ok too. Woodcraft skill is the one which doesn't probably get skill raises that much. I'm not against merging them as such, but against making the BB skill too simple to use. But having such a carpentry skill doesn't yet address the main problem. Being able to chop trees faster might not be enough to make Bridge Building convenient for those who've played for 15+ years and never used the skill. But right now people aren't discussing what exactly is wrong, but about how annoying it is, or talking about balance.

I'd say the biggest inconvenience isn't the time required to chop the trees, but the heavy weight of the logs, so you can only carry a couple at a time, and have to make several trips, particularly when you fail.

I haven't said anything like that.

Yes, it's an insignificant change. So would it change anything for you?

I feel like I'm being pulled into a silly argument about whether people use BB or not and if it's useless. And who's played the game the longest. And about the semantics of Woodcraft. So we have people who don't use it. I've used it, and I do think it can be inconvenient. But maybe because I've occasionally applied the skill, I'm more used to the inconveniences and can see that there's value in it. Besides, no matter how long you've played the game, how can you know it inconvenient if you've never used it? However, instead of getting stuck in arguments about who has played the longest with or without the skill, we should just focus on how it can be improved. There's no point in arguing about how useless exactly people find it, if we all think something could be done, right? So please discuss the possible changes instead of trying to defend the need for alteration against someone who isn't disagreeing with you about it.

For example, you could start by elaborating on how you think merging the two skills would change the gameplay and make it convenient enough for you to build bridges instead of using spells. Right now several people have suggested merging the skills, but no-one's really talked about whether it really makes any difference and why.

Oh, I forgot to mention. If you ever choose to try the skill, the animated forest is a great source of logs. No need to spend long hours with the hatchet. Which is another reason why it's Woodcraft that has little use rather than BB. What a strange discussion this is, a big change being suggested but people arguing about a small one.

Permit me to do some brainstorming here:

I'd see woodcraft skill improved to work similarly to smithing - with wooden sticks/logs and a hatchet (or any axe really), the PC could improve wooden or semi-wooden items like shields, staves and maybe shafts of certain weapons.
Not much improvement, perhaps only some to-hit chance (not to-damage since that is the domain of metal and thus weaponsmiths) to reflect the fact that the skill allows to improve handling properties of certain objects, by "installing" better quality wood or something like that.
Wooden shields could get extra DV and PV, up to a certain limit to not break the early game, though I suppose their destructibility is already something to be remembered as they can easily burn or be broken by explosions, which is often the case.

That way woodcraft really becomes a skill about working with wood; it gives some opportunity to improve early game survival for chars that start with it or (potentially) obtain it via carpenter quest, instead of BB which would be removed/merged with woodcraft.
There are so many ways woodcraft could be made more useful.
Imagine using it on some sticks to cover a pit and create a trap.
Potentially nice feature for that sort of thief/assassin PC that operates on traps and deception.
I know I have tried playing it more than once but the game isn't exactly forthcoming in this department.

Woodcraft could enable the player to create wooden clubs or staves and repair pickaxes (as the general agreement seems to be that it's the shaft that breaks, not the metallic head).
Perhaps some synergy with detect traps on doors, as a skilled woodsman would know the wooden door has been tampered with and possibly had a trap installed.
Woodcraft at high level (>80) could maybe reduce the destruction rate of wooden items, to reflect the PC's expert handling?
Not that many items are made of wood but that could be changed in the future.
What about making blank scrolls from wood? After all that's how paper is made.
Little potential use, true, but still possible and in line with a number of other useless adom features that nobody seems to care about.

When you pile together all the little additions that don't have much merit alone, together they might just mean the skill has been moved from the "never used" group to the "sporadically used".
From being useless it becomes situationally useful. That's still better than what it is right now.

He**, this surely worth an RFE! :)

These are fantastic ideas. I would vote for them.

See, I really, really like it when you think of ways to change the game instead of just saying it's already perfect.

You really have a lot of creativity. Why don't you do this more often? Why are you so reluctant to question the way things work?

Yeah, make an RFE about Woodcraft skill.

Who is saying this game is perfect? Who is saying nothing should be changed? Who are you fighting? Life is difficult enough without imaginary enemies.

*sigh* Maybe people have been so thoroughly spoiled that they don't remember what it's like when you don't know exactly how to do everything in the game, and that's why all the other ways of crossing rivers seem so easy. You even said getting a wish is easier than building bridges, even though you've never used the skill since the year 2000! I don't care if you've played the game since 1963, if your argument is otherwise merely "I don't like it, make it easier". I've never 'just' said the game is perfect. If you read through my posts, you might find I have had many points, but not that one. I've said the skill can be useful, and I've given the reasons why I think so. Useful, not perfect. That's all I can do. And I've asked if people have actual suggestions about the skill and reasons to change it. But you seem to think that mentioning the year you've started playing Adom explains everything. If you don't want to talk about such things, well, that's too bad. It's not a cause I want to fight for.

For an unspoiled player it's not obvious that you can obtain the Swimming skill easily. And you can play the game for a long time before discovering the guaranteed wand of teleportation or the wand of cold. Even when you do know about blessed carrot juice, it still can be easier to build a bridge over a river rather than spend time looking for that one item. That's how I came to think the skill is useful and adds to the enjoyment of the game. Not everyone wants to play a wizard. Not everyone wants to offer random potions to NPCs. And if the existence of Bridge Building annoys you so much, don't read the book then.

You argued against merging or removing BB because it would remove a unique aspect of the game. If a pointless never-used skill is considered unremovable and unique I can't imagine what is actually okay to remove.

It would make a very marginal improvement while removing zero gameplay or enjoyment. Making the skill practically useful somehow would make the game better. It doesn't matter much if the skill is called bridge building or woodcraft, but it would be nice if it was at least remotely useful if it's in the game.

That wasn't the intention. If people actually use BB those of us who claim it's (almost) never used are simply wrong. The point of mentioning how long I've played was just to give an example of how useless the skill possibly is. A bad idea is just as bad if it comes from a veteran player.

I question things often enough it's just that usually it doesn't go well with what people expect.

Duplicate (kinda) of http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2685