Minimize the influence of level scaling
issueid=998 05-07-2012 09:25 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Al-Khwarizmi: 62
Minimize the influence of level scaling

Some time and versions ago, grobblewobble made this observation:

Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble
I'd like to add some thoughts about experience and monster levels. At this moment, the type of monsters you meet automatically adjust to your level. This has a number of consequences:

1. The player cannot fight monsters below or above his level (except in the wilderness and in towns), eliminating a lot of player choice.
2. Gaining levels means your character get stronger, but monsters get equally much stronger (or worse). Therefore, you do not benefit from levels.
3. Because of 2, gaining experience is no longer a reward. Also, experience penalties are no longer a penalty.

In conclusion, as long as the monster adjustment keeps working the way it does, experience penalties cannot be effectively used as an incentive. In fact, they are an extra reason to multiclass, because it means you can gain more weapon marks and find more items before you gain a level and have to face stronger monsters.

So I propose to drop that system and tie monster types / strength to dungeon depth, as before.
With which I agree. Some discussion can be seen on http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=908

I'm opening a new thread because the suggestion was originally made in a thread about multiclassing, and I think this subject is important enough to merit its own thread and not to be lost among unrelated subjects.

My perception is that in version 0.2.6 the problem is less marked than in previous versions, but it still stands. If I'm level 18 I can find ogres and troll brutes (at the very least) on level 2 of any dungeon (and sometimes on level 1). If I'm level 5, I won't find such monsters even on level 7 or 8.

Right now, the technique with which I'm being more successful in game quest progress is: choose a troll (slow levelling), dive to the wizened old man killing few monsters if possible, dive to the shards killing few monsters if possible. With that, I can sometimes get 2 or 3 shards meeting nothing stronger than hobgoblins. On the other hand, if I stop to explore levels and kill monsters, I level and the game becomes rather more difficult with tougher monsters.

I think when the optimal technique in a game is refraining from getting XP and levelling, that game has too much level scaling. It should be the other way round: "Damn, an ogre lord! I can't descend this far yet, they're going to kill me... I'm going to go up and explore the upper levels for some experience".

So my suggestion is to make level scaling less influential (if at all). It was fine in ADOM, where the difficulty of the monsters depended on the danger level of the dungeon you were in, with small factors regarding player level and monsters killed but which didn't have too much of an influence.

The danger level of dungeon levels could depend on depth and on the dungeon itself... to give hints to the player about which randomly-generated dungeons are more dangerous, several things can be done:

- Hints in dungeon description ("a dangerous-looking cave" vs. "a dull-looking cave", etc.)
- Hints on entering the level ("You feel this place may be too dangerous for you", etc.)
- Information from NPC's in nearby towns
- Type of wilderness (less danger on the plain, more on the mountains)
- Location (maybe the poles could be more dangerous than the equator, or far areas from the Drakalor chain could be more dangerous)
- Wilderness encounters getting progressively more dangerous when you approach a dangerous area
- Scrolls, spells, and/or an ability of some classes (ranger?) providing an accurate estimate of danger level

So reducing or removing level scaling doesn't necessarily mean that players don't have ways of knowing where it's safe to go and where they are going to be charred by an ancient red dragon on entering.

I think, apart from improving balance, it would make the game much richer that every dungeon had its danger level, rather than always encountering goblins in any dungeon when you are level 1, and always encountering ogres when you are level 12. This makes all dungeons feel roughly the same.
Issue Details
Issue Number 998
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM II (formerly known as JADE)
Category Gameplay
Status Implemented
Priority Unknown
Suggested Version ADOM II 0.2.6
Implemented Version ADOM II 0.2.7
Votes for this feature 6
Votes against this feature 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




05-07-2012 09:41 PM
Qui Qui is offline
Senior Member
Yes please. This is one single thing that prevents me from really enjoying ADoM II.

Leveling up is supposed to be good. If it's bad, something is wrong (although level caps for optional quests like Kranach or pyramid are fine).

05-09-2012 01:09 PM
The Creator
Fixed for ADOM II 0.2.7. Please send your real name to creator(at)ancientdomainsofmystery.com for it to be included in the credits. (If you were already asked to do so you can ignore this message. Please include a reference to the bug or RFE you are credited for.)

01-02-2013 11:56 PM
Ancient Member
I don't know what exactly has changed, but the problem still seems to be as bad as it was. As far as I can see, the monsters you find still seem to depend entirely on level or xp and not on where you are or how deep. And as a result, experience points still do your character more harm than good.

01-03-2013 02:15 PM
Junior Member
YES. I hate level scaling and can't play games that have it, just do away with it entirely, please. Imo it stops a game from being an rpg at all.

Put hints in dungeon names, make it a skill (survival?) and otherwise just let us die randomly a lot. That's much more fun than level scaling. Exploring should be exciting and dangerous and random (unless you enter the dull cave of kobolds (unless it was a very smart dragon that put that sign outside the cave ;) )), involving lots of running or teleporting away, and making notes to come back later. Not stupid work-arounds and tricks to level as slowly as possible. Nor never seeing a goblin or skeleton again after level three. Nor orcs suddenly all in mithril gear.

(Most of the annoyance not from Adom but carried over from other games I tried to play. I just really do not want Adom 2 to end up in that list.)

If for some reason you really like the idea of level scaling, at least make it completely optional.

01-05-2013 10:01 AM
Ancient Member
Hmm.. maybe I was wrong. Walked around in the upper caverns of chaos with a high level character and saw low level monsters. Maybe the level scaling is only active in the other dungeons now?

01-05-2013 12:03 PM
Ancient Member
Or maybe it's based on the character level when you enter the dungeon for the first time, and not on current level.

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