[RFE] Add a "Combat Technique" mechanic to buff/deepen melee classes
issueid=4213 01-05-2016 12:58 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Ravenmore: 38
[RFE] Add a "Combat Technique" mechanic to buff/deepen melee classes
Instead of nerfing the wizard/archer classes, how about deepening the melees?
Uh, okay, I'm likely to get grilled for this since the idea is sketchy and has some obvious pitfalls but maybe it can inspire somebody to build on it. Here goes:

I always thought wizards are much more powerful because they can focus damage on more than one foe at once, that's what most of the magic comes down to.

How about buffing melee classes by giving them their own sort of AoE capabilities?

- Add a new type of 'spellbook': "combat treatise" ...uh no, wait... this is too similar. Let's try this:
Add the possibility for melee classes to chat to wandering Battle Sages (an entirely new type of monster found essentially everywhere) of same alignment to learn new techniques. This could be based on str/dx (i.e. warrior attributes) (and maybe PE?) rather than learning.
After teaching you a new technique the Sage disappears permanently. The compensation they require and minimal stat requirements (if any) can be made into a balancing mechanism. Wandering Sages are unlikely to chat to wizards, too skinny and frail.
- "techniques" are special moves, usually with some AoE component/CC component. Examples:

Skewer: Requires spear, can attack up to 3-4 monsters in a straight line (opening move)
Wide slash: Attacks 3 squares adjacent to your character in a given direction. (opening move)
Whirlwind: Attacks all 8 foes (opening move)
Shoulder ram: Pushes foes back (I can see how this will be a can of worms to implement when monsters push against each other (opening move)
Stunning Strike: Requires blunt weapon, higher chance of stun. (finisher)
Seek vein: Increased chance to apply bleeding to a given monster (finisher)
Frightful speed: Chance to inflict fear

Opening moves are AoE/crowd control attacks, finishers contain a special addition to a normal attack.
Both opening moves and finishers can be used as individually, but at later stages (level 25?) you could meet Battle Masters that allow you to combine techniques into a sort of combo consisting of an opening move and a finisher (like a Vein-Seek Whirlwind, attack 8 foes with increased chance to bleed).

Some parting words:

One thing that's left open is how to balance the use of techniques? A TO-based Stamina stat equivalent to Mana? Or no limits but also making the attacks noticeably weaker? A cooldown? (I hate that last one actually).

These are extremely broad brush strokes, not a precise mechanism I'd like to see in-game exactly as described. It's more about the general idea rather than details like "skill X can't give +4"
Yes, I know the implementation complexity is probably frightening :)
Just had to get this out of my system for better or worse. Carry on now :)
Issue Details
Issue Number 4213
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority 10 - Lowest
Suggested Version ADOM r65 (v2.1.0)
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 3
Votes against this feature 4
Attachments 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




01-05-2016 01:57 PM
Ancient Member
Not sure about most of that as it apples to Adom, but it might be cool to add a minor weapon effect as an additional mastery bonus; like 10% chance of bleeding for whips, 5% extra crit for swords, x3 crit dmg for daggers, stunning chance for clubs and hammers etc.
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01-05-2016 02:01 PM
Ancient Member
I'm all for adding extra melee combat options but some of this conflicts with existing classes:

Barbarians kind of have this already (Mighty/Tremendous blow)
Monks have circular kick

I think you could also do this more simply:
You could tie it to the talent tree - AFAIK there are no talents that currently grant powers that can be activated, but I don't know if that's actually an issue.

Prereqs:
1) Specialization in that type of weapon (combat talents, like your spear suggestion, would be tied to a particular weapon). (Incidentally I think the spear is the coolest one, pity spears are already so OP :) )
2) Sufficient weapon skill with that weapon.

One thing I like about talent requirements is that if you decided to add an equivalent of tremendous blow to, say, clubs/hammers, then barbarians would get it for free on all weapons, other players would only get it on specific weapon types (clubs/hammers), and would have to spend 2 talents.

Even if you don't want to do it with talents, I'd limit each combat technique to 1 or 2 weapon types so that classes with special combat powers still have those as extra powers that are either unique or more versatile(work on all weapons)
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01-05-2016 02:24 PM
Ancient Member
In Brogue, each type of weapons has a different effect from the start (e.g. spears attack the 2 squares in front of you, axes attack several adjacent monsters, etc.) and the system works nicely.

In ADOM, perhaps having such a thing universally and from the start would be too unbalancing (or maybe not?), but being able to learn such techniques as described in the OP sounds like a good way of experimenting with such features... the difficulty of learning them can always be tuned according to how powerful they are.
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01-05-2016 07:53 PM
Ancient Member
I think the question would be, how do you want to streamline this? You do a lot of melee combat in ADOM. If these attacks are useful enough that you need to punch in a couple keys for every attack, that slow down combat an awful lot.

One possibility would be to link these to Tactics settings somehow. Some thinking out loud here:
-Character is equipped with a sword, fighting in Defensive Tactics enables "Riposte". While Riposting, the character automatically counterattacks against any attack that they successfully dodge.
-Character is equipped with a spear, fighting in Berserk tactics enables "Charge". When Charging, you take a step, and attack an enemy the next tile away. The attack deals 25% more damage and has a base energy cost of 800, but the Berserk DV penalty is doubled for the next turn.
-Character is equipped with a two-handed weapon, fighting in Very Aggressive Tactics enables "Cleave". If you kill an enemy while Cleaving, you get a free attack on the next adjacent enemy.
-Character is equipped with a dagger on Aggressive Tactics enables "Sneak". While Sneaking, your attacks swap places with the enemy and attempt to backstab as you pass.
etc.

One thing to think about with these kinds of attacks is how they would deal with karmics, jellies, etc. I think that they would just have to trigger the penalty as normal, even if you were striking multiple foes or whatever.
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01-05-2016 08:44 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
I think the question would be, how do you want to streamline this? You do a lot of melee combat in ADOM. If these attacks are useful enough that you need to punch in a couple keys for every attack, that slow down combat an awful lot.
Definitely. That's why I mentioned the Brogue (although I didn't explain myself well): in Brogue, those features of weapons are automatic, they are not something that you have to press keys each time to activate.

But what you suggest (tying them to tactics settings) is even better! It would still not slow down combat, but at the same time it would let the player choose whether they apply these techniques or not, without adding new commands, and while adding more depth and meaningful decisions to tactics settings. That would be awesome!
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01-05-2016 10:54 PM
Senior Member
I need a while to get my head around this! I think there's something good in here but a lot of discussion to be had. (FWIW I think a forum post would have been better for now.)

Learning to use reach with two-handed weapons (polearms?) and strike an extra square away would be really nice.
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01-06-2016 03:53 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
I'd love to see either 'martial arts' in ADOM implemented at least like in CataclysmDDA, at least if you were just able to choose your style, learn it (like weapon marks) and use against opponents even without chosing concrete action each time...

Or melee battles as dynamic as in DrawfFortress where you need to take pain and tiredness into consideration, can do wrestling moves, aimed shots, charge into opponents or throw them or at least dodge into direction...

Even tactic setting that would involve not only defense / attack but for example strength / speed / accuracy could make melee more dynamic.

There are surely ways to make melee combat truly exciting. I would surely upvote and support such ideas. However I feel like effort needed to make melee combat really interesting in ADOM just doesn't worth amount of coding required.

In any case. My vote for making melee combat less pressing the same key and more interesting and dynamic - yes as long as it doesn't stops work on tons of other smaller suggestions. My vote for the OP - yes as well. It would make melee combat somehow better. But I don't feel like I would consider melee classes at least as interesting to play as archers even after this change.

P.S. one more thing I would note - I'd make this available or useful at full power for melee fighters only. Just like mindcrafters can't learn spells wizards shouldn't be able to pierce 8 surrounding enemies with his battle axe in one move.
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01-09-2016 02:19 PM
Senior Member
I'd like to maybe see stuff tied to talents - perhaps even talents that only fighting classes can take (ie, they require athletics or find weakness or something, a bit like lightning shot requires archery).

Here's a few basics:

'lunge' - Requires find weakness: If the player moves into a square adjacent to an enemy, a 1.5x damage melee attack is applied to that opponent.
'parry' - Requires dodge: If the player moves to the side against a melee opponent, the player will have an increased chance to dodge the ensuing enemy attack, and automatically attacks back.
'feint' - Requires two weapon combat: if a player stands on the spot, their next melee attack has half the usual energy cost.
'riposte' - Requires alertness. Any time an opponent lands a damaging hit on the player, berserk attacks are gauranteed to crit for the next turn.
'power strike' - Requires athletics: critting a target with a melee weapon will move both the player, and the opponent, 1 square in the direction pressed. If this knocks the target into another creature, both take damage from the attack but nobody moves'
'Throw' - Requires tactics: If a player tries to 'swap' positions with a hostile monster, that monster is thrown 2 squares behind the player.
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